The (Quadruple) Trade Thread, 2017 (Part 4.0)

[Darth Celtic]

So glad DA is our GM so I don't have to be worried reading this crap.

[SmartWentCrazy]

So glad DA is our GM so I don't have to be worried reading this crap.

Me too. It's nice knowing your GM won't fall in love with a 50 win team, and isn't afraid to rock the boat to improve in the future.

I think some people forget that Ainge has historically traded players he didn't want to overpay. Guys like Perkins and Rondo are nice, but if they're not going to lead you to the title, he won't overpay. I wouldn't think that bodes well for AB...

[Captain_Caveman]

Noel has a positive +/- in exactly 1 of his last 18 games, and it was a +1 in a win vs Minny that he barely contributed to.

Interesting given that his team is 10-4 in their last 14.

[truth18]

So glad DA is our GM so I don't have to be worried reading this crap.

Me too. It's nice knowing your GM won't fall in love with a 50 win team, and isn't afraid to rock the boat to improve in the future.

I think some people forget that Ainge has historically traded players he didn't want to overpay. Guys like Perkins and Rondo are nice, but if they're not going to lead you to the title, he won't overpay. I wouldn't think that bodes well for AB...

Or IT.

[DarkAzcura]

So glad DA is our GM so I don't have to be worried reading this crap.

Me too. It's nice knowing your GM won't fall in love with a 50 win team, and isn't afraid to rock the boat to improve in the future.

I think some people forget that Ainge has historically traded players he didn't want to overpay. Guys like Perkins and Rondo are nice, but if they're not going to lead you to the title, he won't overpay. I wouldn't think that bodes well for AB...

Or IT.

DA absolutely loves IT. If IT continues to be a 25 PPG next season, I don't think he would hesitant to max him out.

IT isn't like Rondo, Perkins, or even AB. These players are all significantly flawed in some way much more than IT.

I do worry about how well IT ages, though, and I bet that's the only thing that lingers in Ainge's mind when it comes down to paying IT or not.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Noel has a positive +/- in exactly 1 of his last 18 games, and it was a +1 in a win vs Minny that he barely contributed to.

Interesting given that his team is 10-4 in their last 14.

Theyre 10-4 because they've sat down Okafor for Noel. Okafor has an on/off +/- of -13, Noel is -5.8. That 7 point swing made a huge difference.

[Captain_Caveman]

Noel has a positive +/- in exactly 1 of his last 18 games, and it was a +1 in a win vs Minny that he barely contributed to.

Interesting given that his team is 10-4 in their last 14.

Theyre 10-4 because they've sat down Okafor for Noel. Okafor has an on/off +/- of -13, Noel is -5.8. That 7 point swing made a huge difference.

So he sucks less than a horrible player?

[SmartWentCrazy]

Noel has a positive +/- in exactly 1 of his last 18 games, and it was a +1 in a win vs Minny that he barely contributed to.

Interesting given that his team is 10-4 in their last 14.

Theyre 10-4 because they've sat down Okafor for Noel. Okafor has an on/off +/- of -13, Noel is -5.8. That 7 point swing made a huge difference.

So he sucks less than a horrible player?

Yes and no. Straight +/- is a noisy statistic and heavily dependent on your peers. Noel is coming off the bench, and the sixers do not have a particularly strong bench. It'd be a shock if he was able to carry that team to a positive +/-.

Conversely, the most impressive thing about Joel Embiid is that the Sixers are outscoring their opponents with him on the court. He's a generational talent and it shows. Because of this and the fact that Noel doesn't play much with Embiid, Noel's on/off numbers will always look worse than his impact-- a +10 on/off guy playing behind a +20 guy will look like a -10 guy, when the reality is this is not an accurate reflection of who he is as a player.

Noel is significantly better than Okafor, who is straight ass. That's why the sixers are now winning.

[Valid]

Celtics with Amir. Except Amir is much worse all around.

Tristan and Amir are defensive bigs. I don't understand why do you guys compare them to Vuc, Okafor or Monroe? Tristan's ability to switch onto Curry was huge for Cavs in the finals.

Pau is the only good example, but he's a broken version of an old time great. And, it's not like he makes Spurs better. They are almost 5 points per 100 poss better when he sits.

Amir is a defensive big?!??

He always has been, and our defense is actually a bit better with him on the floor.

Amir is far from great and we definitely need to upgrade his position, but he is not as useless as many of us are making him out to be.

[Homerclease]

I think Bradley for Noel is the right deal. Not sure if philly would be interested but with their recent play and the odds of them coming in the bottom half of the lottery what if they went another direction.

Bradley, Jackson, Mickey for Noel, Holmes and phillys 2017 first round pick top 8 protected. Pick should come in the 10-14 range IMO and both Noel and Holmes would help this front court.

Can we now and forever ban all trade proposals built around Bradley for Noel? Or that don't take contract length into account as a factor?

The Cs would be trading about 120 games of Bradley for about 38 of Noel (not including playoffs). Given that Bradley is currently far more productive than Noel, on what planet does that make sense?

Noel may eventually prove to be a terrific player. Possibly even a difference-maker. But the Cs aren't capped out and don't need to trade for his Bird rights to get that future payoff. They can sign him for money only this summer and retain Bradley.

If they trade Bradley for him now, you're surely worsening the team this year. If they are trading for his future - why? Just sign him a few months from now.

Meanwhile Philly would never trade that pick for Bradley.

Trading Bradley is not a bad idea. If the choice is between paying him or trading him, trading isn't the worst option. But they need to get back a controllable asset. It makes zero sense to trade Bradley in the short term if you're not getting someone back who is better than he is.

Yeah that's not how message boards work. You don't just ban ideas that you disagree with. And either your being willfully dense or your reading comprehension sucks because my trade proposal wasn't a straight up swap. Noel and a top 14 pick for a guy we don't need and who's likely going to walk is pretty damn good return

[BleedGreen1989]

Of course we have a clue about Vucevic's game. We've been watching him for years. Nice offensive player, albeit a little slow afoot. Clueless on defense, and he would take touches away from Horford.

Zizic is already better than Vucevic-- not at scoring, but at the things the Celtics need a center to do.

Zizic?? Slow down.

Curm is the king of ummm, "hot takes".

[Valid]

I think Bradley for Noel is the right deal. Not sure if philly would be interested but with their recent play and the odds of them coming in the bottom half of the lottery what if they went another direction.

Bradley, Jackson, Mickey for Noel, Holmes and phillys 2017 first round pick top 8 protected. Pick should come in the 10-14 range IMO and both Noel and Holmes would help this front court.

Can we now and forever ban all trade proposals built around Bradley for Noel? Or that don't take contract length into account as a factor?

The Cs would be trading about 120 games of Bradley for about 38 of Noel (not including playoffs). Given that Bradley is currently far more productive than Noel, on what planet does that make sense?

Noel may eventually prove to be a terrific player. Possibly even a difference-maker. But the Cs aren't capped out and don't need to trade for his Bird rights to get that future payoff. They can sign him for money only this summer and retain Bradley.

If they trade Bradley for him now, you're surely worsening the team this year. If they are trading for his future - why? Just sign him a few months from now.

Meanwhile Philly would never trade that pick for Bradley.

Trading Bradley is not a bad idea. If the choice is between paying him or trading him, trading isn't the worst option. But they need to get back a controllable asset. It makes zero sense to trade Bradley in the short term if you're not getting someone back who is better than he is.

Yeah that's not how message boards work. You don't just ban ideas that you disagree with. And either your being willfully dense or your reading comprehension sucks because my trade proposal wasn't a straight up swap. Noel and a top 14 pick for a guy we don't need and who's likely going to walk is pretty damn good return

Yeah. I'm not saying I'd do this deal, but Noel + Philly's first rounder for Bradley is pretty good value. The sticking point, of course, is Noel's RFA status.

[BleedGreen1989]

Vooch could be very useful, but I'm not giving up a first and if that's the price then see ya later.

Zeller, Jackson, MIN 2nd? Something like that maybe...

[Edug27]

Tristan and Amir are defensive bigs. I don't understand why do you guys compare them to Vuc, Okafor or Monroe? Tristan's ability to switch onto Curry was huge for Cavs in the finals.

Pau is the only good example, but he's a broken version of an old time great. And, it's not like he makes Spurs better. They are almost 5 points per 100 poss better when he sits.

Amir is a defensive big?!??

He always has been, and our defense is actually a bit better with him on the floor.

Amir is far from great and we definitely need to upgrade his position, but he is not as useless as many of us are making him out to be.

Just because his defense is better than his offense, doesn't make him a defensive center. Same way James Young isn't an offensive player. Amir is just a veteran. So he knows how to play within his ability. He's pretty mediocre on both sides of the ball. He's not a defensive player.

[Valid]

Amir is a defensive big?!??

He always has been, and our defense is actually a bit better with him on the floor.

Amir is far from great and we definitely need to upgrade his position, but he is not as useless as many of us are making him out to be.

Just because his defense is better than his offense, doesn't make him a defensive center. Same way James Young isn't an offensive player. Amir is just a veteran. So he knows how to play within his ability. He's pretty mediocre on both sides of the ball. He's not a defensive player.

I mean, Amir has always been a pretty solid defensive player. I think we forget how good he was in Toronto a few years ago.

[Smog]

Yes, I would. I actually think that trading Bradley for Noel makes us better this year and going forward.

Our biggest weakness is rebounding and defense from our big men. It's not defense at the guard position or scoring at the guard position. Trading for Noel solves that in one fell swoop.

We also have a gigantic roster crunch coming. Our window for trading Bradley is now through the trade deadline. Once the offseason hits, we'll have too many guards and Bradley will be a rental. We won't get back anything for him, and will be forced to offer him even more money than Noel will make, or lose him for nothing.

We're not going to be able to sign Noel to a max deal this summer-- Philly will 100% match it, and flip him for an asset once they can trade him. Elite defensive bigs will always have value in this league, especially when they are quick enough to switch from a 5 to a 1.

As I just mentioned, the money argument is ridiculously stupid. Next year, Bradley will be asking for a 5 year, 150mm+ extension. Noel on a 4 year 90-100mm deal will be MUCH better value. Sure, for one year Bradley will be cheap, but in the long run his salary will dwarf Noel's.

I side with Smog on this one, particularly at this time. IMO, if Sixers are inclined to accept the terms now, why wouldn't they in the off-season? If the C's keep Zeller's contract past the deadline, is there a strong argument the Sixers would just as likely take a sign and trade of Noel for AB+Zeller? Unless recent changes in the CBA make this an issue.

EDITED to ADD: Personally, I'd wait to see if Mavs buyout Bogut to fill the role this year. If not, I'm less worried about this year than I am next in light of building this thing in the intermediate term with focus on contending.

If we draft Fultz/Ball, our guards will be: IT/AB/BKN17/Smart/Rozier. Philly wouldn't be to keen to help us out of our crunch, especially with IT/AB/Smart staring down contract extensions. They'd be just as eager to taunt 'leverage' at us as they were during the draft, when they thought we wanted Dunn (per comments from Wyc).

I don't know if they'd be interested in that trade this offseason, personally.

But none of that matters! AAARGH!

If you really, really want Noel, sign him in the offseason for nothing. It makes absolutely no sense to give up anything apart from a draft pick for him now.

If Bradley's roster spot is burning a hole in your pocket and you feel like we need to get something for him before he walks, that's fine, too. Trade him. But not for a player who can leave in a few months and doesn't make you better now.

The obsession with Nerlens freaking Noel on this board is mind-blowing.

[SmartWentCrazy]

But none of that matters! AAARGH!

If you really, really want Noel, sign him in the offseason for nothing. It makes absolutely no sense to give up anything apart from a draft pick for him now.

If Bradley's roster spot is burning a hole in your pocket and you feel like we need to get something for him before he walks, that's fine, too. Trade him. But not for a player who can leave in a few months and doesn't make you better now.

The obsession with Nerlens freaking Noel on this board is mind-blowing.

Your inability to comprehend what a restricted free agent is, despite it being explained multiple times, is as impressive a feat as I've seen on these boards.

We cannot outright sign Nerlens Noel this off-season. We can sign him to an offer sheet, but we'd have to hope that Philly doesn't match it. Given their loads of cap space, and no one really willing to take it, they're not going to let him walk. They will match it, guaranteed. After all, if a team is willing to offer him a max deal, chances are a team would be willing to trade for him on a max deal.

Nerlens Noel cannot walk this offseason from the Celtics. If they traded for him, they'd be prepared to do what it took to keep him. At a minimum, they'd be able to keep him for another year at the qualifying offer. There is no scenario where Nerlens Noel will walk away from the Celtics after 36 games if we traded for him.

If you don't think he's worth it as a player- fine. That's your opinion and you can't be swayed. But this crap about not wanting to trade for a player who can leave in 36 games doesn't apply to Noel. Nor does waiting to sign him on the offseason, because Philly will match. And this talk about trying to ban a trade topic because you disagree with it? GTFO.

[sully00]

From Stein

But sources say Boston's talks with Orlando to date on the Vucevic front haven't progressed past the exploratory stage ...

Like I wrote earlier, it really seems like Orlando is the one making the calls and shopping him rather than Boston wanting him. This is the same as Wolves leaking about Jackson - Rubio swap hoping to create a market for him.

Both players can play, in vacuum, but unfortunately for them, their skill set doesn't help you win games in 2017. If your PG can't shot and/or your center can't defend pick and rolls / protect the paint, you're in trouble.

For all of you thinking that Vuc would be a good addition, show me a team with a starting center like him that's winning games. *crickets*

He's in a Kanter, B.Lopez, Monroe, Jefferson, Okafor mold. Putting up stats on a losing team, or gets relegated to a bench role.

What is a starting C like him mean? He is nothing like Lopez or Okafor to start with. Monroe is a fair comparison Vucevic has a little more range to his game and is a little bit better defensively. Kanter is terrible defensively.

Boston is so bad rebounding the ball that adding a guy like Vucevic would vastly improve their defense by stopping the endless flow of offensive rebounds. That said every team has an identity and this team's particular trademark isn't defense it is offense. This guy could help offensively a ton.

The one thing I really like about Vucevic is that he is 26 and making 11.75 mil dollars and he is under contract for 2 more years. If you end up bringing him off the bench or only playing him part time mins he is only making what is back up big man money in the NBA now.

[Edug27]

He always has been, and our defense is actually a bit better with him on the floor.

Amir is far from great and we definitely need to upgrade his position, but he is not as useless as many of us are making him out to be.

Just because his defense is better than his offense, doesn't make him a defensive center. Same way James Young isn't an offensive player. Amir is just a veteran. So he knows how to play within his ability. He's pretty mediocre on both sides of the ball. He's not a defensive player.

I mean, Amir has always been a pretty solid defensive player. I think we forget how good he was in Toronto a few years ago.

Unfortunately we are in 2017. I have to ice my ankles after every game just watching him trot up and down the court. It's exhausting.

The reality is Vuc is a huge upgrade offensively and a huge upgrade on the boards over Amir. And Vuc is not much of drop off defensively from Amir either. And I'm not talking about Amir's prime. I'm talking now.

The contract stuff I get.

[Smog]

I think Bradley for Noel is the right deal. Not sure if philly would be interested but with their recent play and the odds of them coming in the bottom half of the lottery what if they went another direction.

Bradley, Jackson, Mickey for Noel, Holmes and phillys 2017 first round pick top 8 protected. Pick should come in the 10-14 range IMO and both Noel and Holmes would help this front court.

Can we now and forever ban all trade proposals built around Bradley for Noel? Or that don't take contract length into account as a factor?

The Cs would be trading about 120 games of Bradley for about 38 of Noel (not including playoffs). Given that Bradley is currently far more productive than Noel, on what planet does that make sense?

Noel may eventually prove to be a terrific player. Possibly even a difference-maker. But the Cs aren't capped out and don't need to trade for his Bird rights to get that future payoff. They can sign him for money only this summer and retain Bradley.

If they trade Bradley for him now, you're surely worsening the team this year. If they are trading for his future - why? Just sign him a few months from now.

Meanwhile Philly would never trade that pick for Bradley.

Trading Bradley is not a bad idea. If the choice is between paying him or trading him, trading isn't the worst option. But they need to get back a controllable asset. It makes zero sense to trade Bradley in the short term if you're not getting someone back who is better than he is.

Yeah that's not how message boards work. You don't just ban ideas that you disagree with. And either your being willfully dense or your reading comprehension sucks because my trade proposal wasn't a straight up swap. Noel and a top 14 pick for a guy we don't need and who's likely going to walk is pretty damn good return

And you clearly didn't read the part where I said Philly would never part with that pick for Bradley. You've cooked up a deal that is irrational for both sides.

If you want Noel, sign him as a free agent.

Philly, if it wants a quality guard -- perhaps even Avery Bradley -- will have plenty of time and money to sign one in free agency in the time that remains between now and when they get serious about contending. They don't have to give up lottery picks to a division rival to pull it off.

And for God's sake, I'm not seriously suggesting banning anyone's ideas. I'm just imploring you to stop on your own. It feels like there's a new Bradley-for-Noel proposal in here once a day.