Gentlemen Celts Spot Rest of League 1 Game Head Start! Opening Night Loss vs PHI 10/22

[redslastlaugh]

Yea, 43 three pt attempts, is not a lot of attempts.

I think PP + White + Simons combined for 7 total assists in 80+ minutes. We need more playmaking from the guards.
And Garza & Tillman & Boucher did not play that well. Queta played great but he still fouled out and it wasn't Joel Embiid drawing all the fouls
And our perimeter players overall just looked slow and unathletic against Maxey and Edgecomb.

Still, after all that, it was a fun game overall. And we lost by 1 point. I mean, I had fun and was thinking, "this game is so unpredictable compared to last year" and I was glad NBA ball is back!

The offense took 4 less 3's than last season's average and a huge portion of them were great looks. Only hitting 25% cost us the game far more than anything else.

[31to6]

I know Garza didn’t play a lot because of injury, but by game 2 of the preseason, I wasn’t impressed. That guaranteed money, seems like it’s gonna have a stranglehold to give him minutes this season when he’s healthy. I’m not sure I’m going to like it, he looks slow as molasses out there. Setting great screens is a valuable skill, but it just doesn’t sit right with me the way we look when he plays. I think better teams will destroy us with him out there. I could be wrong and I’ll be happy about it, but I haven’t been feeling him.

I'm on the same wavelength with Garza, Shak. I think it's unlikely they don't regret signing him.

U know who's available though? A guy with some size who can PASS that basketball??

Spoiler:

Trevion Williams!

Spoiler:

https://www.euroleaguebasketball.net/euroleague/players/trevion-williams/012604/

Spoiler:

[djFan71]

Nah, one of Hugo, Walsh, or Rico could have slows into some minutes. Could have given Minott more. I do like minutes distribution, I just thought it was too predictable on who played.

I truly believe Hugo (maybe Walsh) should have had a run on defense against Edgecomb or Maxey. I don’t think Joe goes out of the box enough, especially given how much he says he’s going to do it.

I’m not saying Hugo didn’t make mistakes, I’m not saying he was a stud from go. I am saying he showed enough to get some regular season minutes! If he had flashes from go, you need to force him early season, just to see if it’s real. Got rid of all that top talent and still won’t let pups get out there. I’m not talking about guys who should play, take some chances!!

You snagged Minott for a song, he’ll likely be cheap next season too, PLAY HIM!! Walsh is basically a cheerleader if he’s not playing this season, a waste of a spot in year 3. Rico is 1st round money, play him! If none of them deserve more rope in a season like this, then what are we doing here?

I get it Joe doesn’t like rookies or young guys, but with what they get paid, PLAY THEM!! It’s time to try and find the gem! If it’s not one is them, then we’ll know that too.

It’s one game, so I’m not overly irked. But play the young guys and guys who need evaluation. I also know you can’t play everybody, but I feel it already this season, it’s time to play the people that we don’t know about.


It’s one game, it’s one game, it’s one game, it’s one game! We have all season to evaluate, we have all season to evaluate, we have all season to evaluate, we have all season to evaluate!

I want them all to play too. But, who would you have played less?

I feel you, that’s why I said I know we can’t play them all. However, the guys that should play are the guys on easy money and young. So, 5 less minutes for all of White, Pritch, Simons, and JB. That gets you 20 to simply try a guy or two. Minott got 14, stick him to Edgecomb and give him 20. I didn’t watch him enough so he may have been bad on D when I wasn’t paying attention.

I thought everybody agreed to sacrifice? What’s 5 less minutes for each of them? Simons is the only one looking for a check out of the good players, I think.

Really all you needed was one brief stint for Walsh or Hugo to see if they could bother Edgecombe or Maxey when no one else was. I never heard defense mentioned for Rico, in good way, so not really about him.

I just don't see any coach/team not playing their top 4 guys at least 30-35 min, though. Even last night White, PP and JB down to 32 minutes and you gain 12 min. Then he gives that that all to Minott & Boucher and still doesn't have any left over for Hugo.

For me, you have 32 more minutes if you'd traded Simons this summer. But, I'll stop bringing that up. Or at least try... lol.

[Green89]

JB should take a few games off to get his hammy right. Give Hugo the minutes.

[darrendaye]

I know Garza didn’t play a lot because of injury, but by game 2 of the preseason, I wasn’t impressed. That guaranteed money, seems like it’s gonna have a stranglehold to give him minutes this season when he’s healthy. I’m not sure I’m going to like it, he looks slow as molasses out there. Setting great screens is a valuable skill, but it just doesn’t sit right with me the way we look when he plays. I think better teams will destroy us with him out there. I could be wrong and I’ll be happy about it, but I haven’t been feeling him.

If he's not stretching, there isn't a strong case he should be out there over Tillman. IMO his niche is primarily to torch backup centers. He's got an advanced feel for freeing himself for shots at the basket. But not to a level that you feature that and that really only opens up if he forces closeouts by being effective from deep. It's great that he sets good screens. And he should get a healthy diet of that while he's out there. But I also want him in a corner a good amount of time and let Minott and or Boucher serve as the screener to free others AND themselves for regular looks.

[Bar Fight]

Sam Hauser is a coward btw. I noticed this last season. He only makes shots in low pressure moments

[Riverwalk2021]

Good efforts/positive signs from Queta and Simmons. Everybody else was meh to awful outside our top guys. Those Tillman/Garza minutes are a horror flick come to life. Watching the defense literally back away from Tillman and double White/Brown on a screen action is You're literally playing 4 v 5 on one end. How can you be successful given that?

Brad really needs to acquire a decent big otherwise we need to load manage Brown and White. It's a lost cause to play them 35-40 minutes a night. Hauser just reaffirms what I think of him anytime he has to play a significant role.

For us to be competitive, Brown has to be a decent #1. White was phenomenal in the 3rd but below par in the other frames. If White's the number 1 option or taking the most shots, the efficiency won't be there like it wasn't last night. It's a domino effect. Both have to be at least good in their roles for this team to be competitive (.500ish). Pritchard is good and tough as nails but too limited in size/athleticism to be the third best player on a competitive team.

And Joe still hasn't learned to hold a big lead or run a semblance of a play late in games lol...

[Riverwalk2021]

Sam Hauser is a coward btw. I noticed this last season. He only makes shots in low pressure moments

If we played the Jazz/Wizards every game, he'd be All-NBA.

[djFan71]

JB should take a few games off to get his hammy right. Give Hugo the minutes.

This is where Hugo will get minutes organically. Guys out or he beats someone currently ahead of him.

[Shak_Celts]

I want them all to play too. But, who would you have played less?

I feel you, that’s why I said I know we can’t play them all. However, the guys that should play are the guys on easy money and young. So, 5 less minutes for all of White, Pritch, Simons, and JB. That gets you 20 to simply try a guy or two. Minott got 14, stick him to Edgecomb and give him 20. I didn’t watch him enough so he may have been bad on D when I wasn’t paying attention.

I thought everybody agreed to sacrifice? What’s 5 less minutes for each of them? Simons is the only one looking for a check out of the good players, I think.

Really all you needed was one brief stint for Walsh or Hugo to see if they could bother Edgecombe or Maxey when no one else was. I never heard defense mentioned for Rico, in good way, so not really about him.

I just don't see any coach/team not playing their top 4 guys at least 30-35 min, though. Even last night White, PP and JB down to 32 minutes and you gain 12 min. Then he gives that that all to Minott & Boucher and still doesn't have any left over for Hugo.

For me, you have 32 more minutes if you'd traded Simons this summer. But, I'll stop bringing that up. Or at least try... lol.

I’m not even saying they have to average that I’m saying we needed a different look last night on defense. It wouldn’t have hurt to give each of them a few less minutes. I thought he was adjusting based on the game and opponent? They let the rookie make history on us, same time let Maxey handle us too? Try something else. Step outside the box for once Joe. Send Hugo or Walsh in there for one quick stint and see if they could do SOMETHING! Hell, bite them, ANYTHING!!

[Shak_Celts]

JB should take a few games off to get his hammy right. Give Hugo the minutes.

Why? He didn’t complain about the it and he looked absolutely fine.

[darrendaye]

Rewatching now. Gotta say, I'm even more pissed at the coaching staff for not protecting Garza. I have positive things to say about Joe, but coaching is a two way street and you have to protect your guys.

[Shak_Celts]

I may have to reconsider my position on not posting after losses this year or I may only get to post half the time give or take.
I think the minutes distribution was about right. Top 4 players in low 30s minutes, 6 more guys from the mid teens to low 20s.

To get Hugo and other guys more time, it was up to Brad to remove the players ahead of them, not on Joe to force them time. It's only 1 game, but I still like my keep Kornet over Hauser, move Simons, save $, and play the young guys plan more for the team's long term future.

I would have loved to have kept Kornet over Hauser if it was possible but I was really high on Luke as a contributor outside the box score. Sam's a serviceable player but Luke would have filled a much larger need. I'm not complaining though, I don't remember all the details but I think the timing of things may have been part of what cost us a chance of retaining Luke and s**t happens.

We weren’t giving Luke 14m per. He’s good, but he’s not a starting center, in the playoffs. Sam was already under contract, we’d have to trade him for zero $ just to try and keep Luke. Still don’t think the money works.

I haven’t really looked up backup centers money, so it could be in line with what Luke makes, 14m is good money. Spurs can do it because they have mostly rookie scale contracts or mins. Plus, Wemby had injury issues his first two seasons, they needed someone who could spot start and be effective in the regular season, in case Wemby misses a few (knock on wood).

Luke is playing well for them too and he’s a locker room boost. If he was cheaper, no brainier. Spurs knew where they had us, they gave him an offer we COULD refuse.

[Shak_Celts]

Rewatching now. Gotta say, I'm even more pissed at the coaching staff for not protecting Garza. I have positive things to say about Joe, but coaching is a two way street and you have to protect your guys.

I didn’t watch it again, but I remember they were saying Joe was yelling at him to get up. I can’t remember who he did that to last season.

[darrendaye]

Rewatching now. Gotta say, I'm even more pissed at the coaching staff for not protecting Garza. I have positive things to say about Joe, but coaching is a two way street and you have to protect your guys.

I didn’t watch it again, but I remember they were saying Joe was yelling at him to get up. I can’t remember who he did that to last season.

It initially set me off a little when Scal said that. Garza hasn't shown any issues with hustle and energy. I'm a hyper competitive guy, so I like Joe's MO, but didn't like that. But it was compounded when blood was evident and they kept him out there for 2 more offensive and defensive sequences. That's when I commented in game thread. Now I notice, when he got up he was shaking his head in the corner. Then on the next defensive sequence, he slapped himself in the face and they still kept him out there another offensive and defensive sequence.

[Shak_Celts]

Lets see.

1) Celtics shot too many threes
2) Celtics have a WEAK center rotation...below weak actually
3) Simons is terrible at defense, maybe worse than Pritchard
4) Celtics blew a lead in the 4th
5) Jaylen almost dribbled the ball away in crunch time at end of 4th
6) Joe is still a very questionable coach.

1) no they didn’t. Faster pace, will mean more 3s and shots anyway. Probably the reason why we still scored so many pts, but couldn’t hit the 3.
2) Maybe. The Sixers seem to be in a worse situation. We need more time to evaluate.
3) He made a mistake or two, for sure. He just wasn’t as bad as you’re saying and worth mentioning on D tonight. Pritchard was our best guard defender, last night based on eye test, but someone may have the disagreeing stats. Why only reference Simons, the known poor defender?
4) He can’t do that, but Brandy said, “almost doesn’t count.”
5) Every coach is questionable, some more than others. Joe isn’t that bad. Certainly shouldn’t be judged off this game. Maybe not even this season, considering a lot of posters claim this team to be terrible (putting it mildly)… they still seem to have high/unrealistic expectations though, unsurprisingly.

1) Pace was slightly faster last night than last seasons average, and I firmly believe that 40% of your shots from 3 is too many (Unless you have Steph Curry and Klay Thompson in their peaks), Celtics had 47% of their shots from 3. And speaking of GS, if you look at their 73 win season....they only shot 36% of their shots from 3.

2) Sixers center position is not weaker than Queta and Garza. Jeez. I take Embiid and Drummon 1000/100 over Queta and Garza (ignoring money)

3) Because Simons was the BIG offseason acquisition after losing Jrue and KP. He was supposed to be a difference maker. Pritchard is the barometer as a scoring primary guard who at times is hard to play due to his defensive limitations that gets hunted by opposing teams. Last night Pritchard was a superior defender to Simons, who has the knock of ALWAYS being lack luster, lack effort on that end of floor. I was told he would be way better surrounded by better defenders, he looked lost out there last night.

4) I dont get your response, they blew a lead.

5) Maybe your point 4, was towards my point 5? still doesnt make sense.

6) I am basing my personal evaluation of Joe on far more than last nights game. Joe has no ability to vary from his plan of "be tough, shoot threes"

1) i don’t agree.
2) I said seemingly, because it was based on last night. Embiid was horrible and Drummond did absolutely nothing. I would not take Drummond over Queta and I doubt any team would.
3) he was a superior defender to White too. I haven’t watched it again, but I’m holding by initial impression, he wasn’t nearly as bad as you say. He wasn’t a big acquisition, stop it. People thought he was the best we could get for Jrue and that we were going to dump him.
4) I edited it, you must have missed it while writing your response.
5) JB can’t make a mistake in the last minutes of a game, no good player should. However you admit it was ALMOST. If you know the song from Brandy, “Almost doesn’t count.”
6) you aren’t basing it off that, but last night shouldn’t even be in the equation. There are great coaches who had excellent, top tier talent, that never won a chip, Joe did. I wish people would stop weakening his credit. We won a chip, it’s “all because of the talent” and the next season we lose and all of a sudden that’s when the credit goes to Joe. If we win without him contributing, we lost without him. One minute our talent is the poo of the league, next people are expecting Joe to make them good. It doesn’t make sense.

People love Thibs and he hasn’t won anything since being an assistant. His players turn on him every stop.

I agree with you on Joe sticking to his box most of the time, I take issue with him sometimes. I’m just going to let things play out. It won’t change my decision on whether Joe is good or not, even if we start winning, I already believe he’s good. He’s not great, but I have seen plenty that’s worse. I wonder what the detractors will say about him, if they exceed expectations tho.


Edit: come to think of it, if our pace was slightly faster then that’s because of our slow to a crawl 4th Q. They were getting up and down until then. They were zooming in that 3rd.

[djFan71]

I feel you, that’s why I said I know we can’t play them all. However, the guys that should play are the guys on easy money and young. So, 5 less minutes for all of White, Pritch, Simons, and JB. That gets you 20 to simply try a guy or two. Minott got 14, stick him to Edgecomb and give him 20. I didn’t watch him enough so he may have been bad on D when I wasn’t paying attention.

I thought everybody agreed to sacrifice? What’s 5 less minutes for each of them? Simons is the only one looking for a check out of the good players, I think.

Really all you needed was one brief stint for Walsh or Hugo to see if they could bother Edgecombe or Maxey when no one else was. I never heard defense mentioned for Rico, in good way, so not really about him.

I just don't see any coach/team not playing their top 4 guys at least 30-35 min, though. Even last night White, PP and JB down to 32 minutes and you gain 12 min. Then he gives that that all to Minott & Boucher and still doesn't have any left over for Hugo.

For me, you have 32 more minutes if you'd traded Simons this summer. But, I'll stop bringing that up. Or at least try... lol.

I’m not even saying they have to average that I’m saying we needed a different look last night on defense. It wouldn’t have hurt to give each of them a few less minutes. I thought he was adjusting based on the game and opponent? They let the rookie make history on us, same time let Maxey handle us too? Try something else. Step outside the box for once Joe. Send Hugo or Walsh in there for one quick stint and see if they could do SOMETHING! Hell, bite them, ANYTHING!!

Yeah, I would have been down for that as well. He did have Hugo get up to the scorers table once.

My posts were more on average rotation minutes for the season, not just specifically last night. I just think it's gonna be the guys you saw last night, then Hugo/Walsh/Baylor pick up slop minutes in blowouts / when guys are out. There just isn't 10 min every night for Hugo on the fully healthy roster, given its current construction.

[djFan71]

I may have to reconsider my position on not posting after losses this year or I may only get to post half the time give or take.
I think the minutes distribution was about right. Top 4 players in low 30s minutes, 6 more guys from the mid teens to low 20s.

To get Hugo and other guys more time, it was up to Brad to remove the players ahead of them, not on Joe to force them time. It's only 1 game, but I still like my keep Kornet over Hauser, move Simons, save $, and play the young guys plan more for the team's long term future.

I would have loved to have kept Kornet over Hauser if it was possible but I was really high on Luke as a contributor outside the box score. Sam's a serviceable player but Luke would have filled a much larger need. I'm not complaining though, I don't remember all the details but I think the timing of things may have been part of what cost us a chance of retaining Luke and s**t happens.

We weren’t giving Luke 14m per. He’s good, but he’s not a starting center, in the playoffs. Sam was already under contract, we’d have to trade him for zero $ just to try and keep Luke. Still don’t think the money works.

I haven’t really looked up backup centers money, so it could be in line with what Luke makes, 14m is good money. Spurs can do it because they have mostly rookie scale contracts or mins. Plus, Wemby had injury issues his first two seasons, they needed someone who could spot start and be effective in the regular season, in case Wemby misses a few (knock on wood).

Luke is playing well for them too and he’s a locker room boost. If he was cheaper, no brainier. Spurs knew where they had us, they gave him an offer we COULD refuse.

Luke starts at $11M this year and it's descending. Third year is only partially guaranteed even.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/23670/luke-kornet

There's more guaranteed money total on Sam's contract. This year is the only year Luke is making more - and it's slightly less than $1M more. Next year Sam increases to more than Luke and the difference grows each year after that.

At the start of the summer you could have easily sent Sam into another team's TPE and taken no money back, and probably got a 2nd rounder or 2 for your troubles.

But, it's done and over and Sam's good too.

[Half-Full]

Honestly, the Celtics played hard and were entertaining last night. That's all that I wanted to see. You can't lose Holiday, Horford, Porzingis, Kornet and Tatum and replace them with Simons, Garza, Boucher, Tillman and Minott and not expect a major drop off. It's just unrealistic to think otherwise.

My only complaint about last night is no minutes for Hugo. Hugo needs to play 15+ minutes per night because he represents hope for the future.

Maxey and Edgecombe needed some tending to. A fresh Hugo and Walsh, instructed to go in and cover them hard for 3-4 minutes might have made a difference. No one else seemed to be very effective at defending them. What's the worst that could happen?

Hugo should've played for sure.

Walsh would've made no difference, whatever he gives you on defense, he gives up on offense. Minott is already better than him

Well, I have a higher opinion of Walsh than you do, but that's ok.

[djFan71]

Rewatching now. Gotta say, I'm even more pissed at the coaching staff for not protecting Garza. I have positive things to say about Joe, but coaching is a two way street and you have to protect your guys.

I didn’t watch it again, but I remember they were saying Joe was yelling at him to get up. I can’t remember who he did that to last season.

It initially set me off a little when Scal said that. Garza hasn't shown any issues with hustle and energy. I'm a hyper competitive guy, so I like Joe's MO, but didn't like that. But it was compounded when blood was evident and they kept him out there for 2 more offensive and defensive sequences. That's when I commented in game thread. Now I notice, when he got up he was shaking his head in the corner. Then on the next defensive sequence, he slapped himself in the face and they still kept him out there another offensive and defensive sequence.

Brad was bad at this as well, iirc. You see a guy obviously hobbling and they let 2-3 more series go before doing anything about it. Joe's done it in the past too, for sure.