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Gordon Hayward Thread

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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1061 » by greenroom31 » Tue Mar 5, 2019 3:33 am

thelarrybirdx wrote:
greenroom31 wrote:Maybe I'm just losing my mind, but after looking at this info it seems like it's Mook and Hayward more than anyone else in our top 8 who determines if we win or lose. And then Al, Kyrie and Terry to a lesser degree. If Mook and Hayward play well we win. If they don't we usually l/quote]

Nothing to see here. Players play better in wins. That's why we win.


Well not Tatum, Brown and Smart. Their numbers are basically identical in wins and losses.

But your point could still stand. I guess it's just striking how signficant the difference is between wins and losses for Mook and Hayward. You'd think the vets would be the more consistent players and it'd be the young guys would be hit or miss.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1062 » by Soulcatcher33 » Tue Mar 5, 2019 6:56 am

yazfan wrote:From a Butler forum today

"
Boston has a well publicized "chemistry" problem, not a coaching issue. It's so bad in Boston that a great coach can't even over come it. Selfishness in this case. And, it's so bad that it is rumored (and widely suspected) that a laid back guy like Gordon Hayward hates it there. That last statement from a person who knows Gordon's dad, so it is third hand, but it is not so far fetched it can't be believed, knowing Gordon's background and style. Ainge will have to address this in the off season, and I would wager that he will. Sometimes it just comes down to the General Managers and Athletic Directors admitting their mistakes, taking a bullet, and correcting the situation for the benefit of the organization.
"


I can definitely see this being true. It makes sense why he seems so disengaged sometimes. He's just over it. It's also true Hayward is pretty laid back so that shows the absolute **** storm the locker room has become if this is true.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1063 » by cloverleaf » Tue Mar 5, 2019 1:26 pm

I'm thinking the C's need a new sports psychologist on their staff. Where's Danny's brain doctor when they need him? ;-)
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1064 » by Green89 » Tue Mar 5, 2019 2:53 pm

Soulcatcher33 wrote:
yazfan wrote:From a Butler forum today

"
Boston has a well publicized "chemistry" problem, not a coaching issue. It's so bad in Boston that a great coach can't even over come it. Selfishness in this case. And, it's so bad that it is rumored (and widely suspected) that a laid back guy like Gordon Hayward hates it there. That last statement from a person who knows Gordon's dad, so it is third hand, but it is not so far fetched it can't be believed, knowing Gordon's background and style. Ainge will have to address this in the off season, and I would wager that he will. Sometimes it just comes down to the General Managers and Athletic Directors admitting their mistakes, taking a bullet, and correcting the situation for the benefit of the organization.
"


I can definitely see this being true. It makes sense why he seems so disengaged sometimes. He's just over it. It's also true Hayward is pretty laid back so that shows the absolute **** storm the locker room has become if this is true.


It amazes me that people have to use someone's dad to justify solid info/sources now. First AD, now Gordon. I mean, I talk to my dad almost every day, but if you asked him how I felt on certain topics, he'd probably be way off.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1065 » by robdog_5 » Tue Mar 5, 2019 4:15 pm

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26131924/the-waiting-gordon-hayward-hardest-part

interesting article. Talks about struggles with his play, his mindset and even how he has or hasn't been able to connect with teammates.

the last couple sentences bummed me out. It says he still experiences soreness in his leg/ankle. I wonder if it will be a lifelong thing.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1066 » by KGtabake » Tue Mar 5, 2019 6:56 pm

Even if Gordon never got injured, his contract would have been an overpay either way.
It doesn't have to do with Tatum's rise last year. It has to do with the player's value.
Gordon is payed like a top of the tops forward in this game.
He's getting more money this year than guys like KD, giannis, george. Very good player but not worthy of this contract and injuries have nothing to do with this.
The problem is that after the injury, he is impossible to move.
He is a great guy to have around as a personality. I love his overall behavior and i wish he will be fully healthy next season.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1067 » by ConstableGeneva » Wed Mar 6, 2019 12:21 pm

What a tease lol.



I honestly don't want him to start. They should however almost exclusively feature him as the primary ballhandler/playmaker off the bench. Take the ball off Rozier's hands. He should be finishing games instead of Brown/Morris depending on matchup/how hot guy is.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1068 » by Roddy » Wed Mar 6, 2019 1:35 pm

robdog_5 wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26131924/the-waiting-gordon-hayward-hardest-part

interesting article. Talks about struggles with his play, his mindset and even how he has or hasn't been able to connect with teammates.

the last couple sentences bummed me out. It says he still experiences soreness in his leg/ankle. I wonder if it will be a lifelong thing.


Smart said the players understand the quandary: They need a healthy and confident Hayward to win the East, but force-feeding him minutes was impeding the team's day-to-day success.

"It's complicated," Smart conceded. "You can't stop playing him, but at the same time, you don't want to lose the other guys who are playing well. Guys need to earn their minutes.


This is what most of us were saying. You have to earn your own minutes, and there were some games this season when it was not the case. You can understand the frustation of some players.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1069 » by cloverleaf » Wed Mar 6, 2019 3:01 pm

KGtabake wrote:Even if Gordon never got injured, his contract would have been an overpay either way.
It doesn't have to do with Tatum's rise last year. It has to do with the player's value.
Gordon is payed like a top of the tops forward in this game.
He's getting more money this year than guys like KD, giannis, george. Very good player but not worthy of this contract and injuries have nothing to do with this.
The problem is that after the injury, he is impossible to move.
He is a great guy to have around as a personality. I love his overall behavior and i wish he will be fully healthy next season.


Gordon could be valuable in the playoffs and fine by next season.

But the usual is for player contracts to look like an overpay in the early years, then a bargain later on.

Also, we don't know how good he would have gotten or still will get.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1070 » by KGtabake » Wed Mar 6, 2019 3:08 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
KGtabake wrote:Even if Gordon never got injured, his contract would have been an overpay either way.
It doesn't have to do with Tatum's rise last year. It has to do with the player's value.
Gordon is payed like a top of the tops forward in this game.
He's getting more money this year than guys like KD, giannis, george. Very good player but not worthy of this contract and injuries have nothing to do with this.
The problem is that after the injury, he is impossible to move.
He is a great guy to have around as a personality. I love his overall behavior and i wish he will be fully healthy next season.


Gordon could be valuable in the playoffs and fine by next season.

But the usual is for player contracts to look like an overpay in the early years, then a bargain later on.

Also, we don't know how good he would have gotten or still will get.



I guess i should take into account the fact that the cap skyrocketed in the last few years.
I don't value GH as a 30 per guy but if you look at guys like Barnes, Batum or Porter Jr...he's definitely a lot better than them.
Even now post injury, he's better than that.
You pay what the market drives you to pay :wink:
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1071 » by jinx8402 » Wed Mar 6, 2019 4:09 pm

I saw this after last nights game. We all know Gordon's struggles from coming back from his injury. At the end of the day, when he plays closer to his former self, the C's are very very good. And we need him to be like this every game one the playoffs start.

Image

It was great seeing him lead the 2nd unit instead of Rozier against the Warriors. I have been saying for a while now that needed to be the change to both get him going/involved and to make the 2nd unit work together better.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1072 » by Banks2Pierce » Wed Mar 6, 2019 4:18 pm

KGtabake wrote:Even if Gordon never got injured, his contract would have been an overpay either way.


Nah.

If you want to make the KD/Lebron making the same or less argument, I'd disagree as those guys are underpaid and held down due to the cap.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1073 » by exculpatory » Wed Mar 6, 2019 5:09 pm

Read on Twitter


Gordo IS the X factor.
SamIam 2010: Truth's ability to play so incredibly efficiently is so UNDERAPPRECIATED. Bballcool 2012: Amazing how great Pierce has been for so long. Continues to defy age! KG 2013: P is original Celtic. Wherever he goes, we go. This is The Truth's house.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1074 » by 3D Chess » Wed Mar 6, 2019 5:55 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1075 » by soxfan2003 » Wed Mar 6, 2019 6:41 pm

3D Chess wrote:
Read on Twitter


Part of the reason Hayward has been erratic is that he usually only gets a reasonable high number of shots in the flow of the offense if he really has it going. I am sure Gordon Hayward had games with Utah where he started off 1-6 or 0-4 but still ended up with 9 or 10 more shots which is enough to turn it around.

Even last night int he minutes that he got, I thought Hayward when he was clearly hot from my perspective, deserved the ball passed to him for shots 3-4 more times which would have probably gotten him 2-3 more high quality shots.

Hayward is still not the same old Hayward athletically but he is better athletically than some folks on this forum are suggesting. He would be dunking more and with more authority if he hadn't gotten injured but he is more than good enough with the occasional screen to be quite often the main conductor in Stevens motion offense. He really does that well. He is kind of like a more dynamic Horford in terms of ability on offense but with much less postup ability himself.

I just looked it up and Hayward in his last season in Utah playing in the tougher western conference had around 50% more dunks for his shot attempts and remember he did this with teams treating him as the #1 option to focus in on. And he did this on a team that played a slow pace so less easy fastbreak dunks..... He wasn't a great dunker but a pretty good one. Something is still obviously wrong with his leg when he says he can "deal with it" -- probably with meds and physical therapy -- but it reacts differently than his other non injured leg in terms of soreness -- perhaps bruising if I heard Hayward correctly -- after games. I'd be very interested to know if George went through the same thing in terms of how his leg reacted after games. Is this a sign that Hayward's surgery more difficult?

Stevens still has plenty of time but last 10 games of season, I'd really try to establish Hayward as more of a focal point. Not to get him to even average 18 PPG but to help get high percentage looks for Tatum and Brown on cuts to the basket and to make it tougher for teams to blitz and focus on Irving. If defenses have to really be concerned with Hayward like teams facing Utah had to be, it will open things up for other players. Tatum has the ability to hit some tough shots but during this season, McHale was right that he should avoid the fallaway type shots whenever they have a high degree of difficulty at least. It makes sense to add that to your arsenal when you have more respect of the refs and are likely to get foul calls when you use that threat to setup other moves. Tatum doesn't have that yet.

At this point of the season, it is rather obvious the relative strengths of the players and I think Stevens has to try to install Popovich like discipline. Tough for a relatively young coach to do. You don't want it to regimented since Celtics don't have Stockton/Malone/Jeff Hornacek playing years together and have more players with 1 on 1 ability but at the same time, players like Morris/Brown/Tatum, I don't think should be initiating the offense in the halfcourt. They should have Irving/Hayward/Horford/Smart/Rozier(when he plays) trying to create easy looks for them.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1076 » by 3D Chess » Wed Mar 6, 2019 7:08 pm

Great post ^

I read somewhere recently that PG said it took him 2 years to feel right again after his surgery. Hayward is around 1.5 years now, plus he had the additional surgery after the one to put his foot back on the right way.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1077 » by Roddy » Wed Mar 6, 2019 7:57 pm

3D Chess wrote:Great post ^

I read somewhere recently that PG said it took him 2 years to feel right again after his surgery. Hayward is around 1.5 years now, plus he had the additional surgery after the one to put his foot back on the right way.


Hayward also received words of encouragement from Paul George, who recovered from a catastrophic leg injury in 2014. George said it took a full 2 years before he could play freely again.

"Patience. Focus on who you are, not who you used to be," George advised Hayward.


https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/252867/Paul-George-Tells-Gordon-Hayward-It-Took-2-Years-To-Recover-From-Tibia-Fracture

That's what people don't understand. He is still recovering mentally and physically. I still hope he will be in great shape again at the start of the next season. A full summer and a full training camp will do it.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1078 » by soxfan2003 » Wed Mar 6, 2019 10:49 pm

Roddy wrote:
robdog_5 wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26131924/the-waiting-gordon-hayward-hardest-part

interesting article. Talks about struggles with his play, his mindset and even how he has or hasn't been able to connect with teammates.

the last couple sentences bummed me out. It says he still experiences soreness in his leg/ankle. I wonder if it will be a lifelong thing.


Smart said the players understand the quandary: They need a healthy and confident Hayward to win the East, but force-feeding him minutes was impeding the team's day-to-day success.

"It's complicated," Smart conceded. "You can't stop playing him, but at the same time, you don't want to lose the other guys who are playing well. Guys need to earn their minutes.


This is what most of us were saying. You have to earn your own minutes, and there were some games this season when it was not the case. You can understand the frustation of some players.


With 20/20 hindsight, Hayward should have started the year off of the bench playing 20 MPG to take some pressure off of him but realistically he earned the right to start or at least to get major minutes from his previous career in Utah. He wasn't a fake EC all-star but a genuine western conference one. He was around the 20th best player in the game that year IMHO. He was someone that had made the all-star team in the western conference and was the best player on a team in the western conference on a team that had won a playoff series in the tougher conference.

A player like that deserves to have his extended preseason games in the NBA regular season if need be since it is in in the long term interest of the team for him to come as close as possible to his previous level by playoff time.

Hayward obviously wasn't a superstar but in the NBA grand scheme of things most players of his stature working their way back would start and be given a very long leash. NFL would be a different story since regular season wins matter a hell of a lot more but as much as I question the fit with the Warriors, Cousins deserves to start with them as well. If he isn't working out better, the plug can be pulled on Cousins with 5 games left in the regular season. But until then, give Cousins a long leash since as much as I am not a fan of his game, he potentially makes the Warriors a little bit better even if he ends up just a backup playing 5-15 MPG in playoffs.

At some point if the goal is to win the championship that season you pull the plug on anyone that is starting and Stevens did on Hayward at the right time. Now the question needs to become whether or not if he continues to make progress should the Celtics start Hayward so he can more easily play 32-33 MPG in the playoffs. I wouldn't consider starting him until 10 games left in season and even then it may just be spot starts. On the other hand, if Hayward goes south you lessen his minutes in the post season.

The key point in all of this is regular season means very little in 2019. Warriors are treating it like it is a joke and pretty meaningless. Smart gets the situation but even he probably since he is a competitor doesn't realize or be willing to admit, Celtics probably lose in first or second round last year in the west. Cavs got annihilated in finals after game 1.

I like Stevens a coach but if there was some team tension around this, it is either the partial fault of Ainge/Stevens for not explaining situation better to team or the players for not accepting it in a year like this.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1079 » by nickgammon » Thu Mar 7, 2019 5:33 am

This has been a great 24 hours for us that stuck by Gordon. Hating ass men meet hating ass women and have hating ass kids, so I know there's gonna be some haters holding out till the end. But a confident Hayward is a great basketball player.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1080 » by itrsteve » Thu Mar 7, 2019 5:36 am

Well that should be a huge confidence booster for our boy; I won't lie, I winced when that one left his hand.
[quote=“dkb964”]156-1 Celtics are frauds when pressure is put on them. They would have been toast if Luka was not stupid enough to foul himself out. Enjoy this ONE finals win. There will never be another with the Js and the Celtics cant afford stacked team.[/quote]

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