Celtics 2023-24, Season Thread, (con't)

[Hal14]

Hell yeah

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[bisme37]

I've whined about this on the GB a bunch of times so I'm going to whine about it here this time instead haha...

There was a GB thread last week about Tatum's MVP chances and basically everyone said the C's are too stacked for him to win it. But now there's a thread about All NBA and a grand total of zero people have any other Celtic making All NBA. Ish just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not even saying he should be the MVP. I mean I'd like it but there are other great players and only one gets it. And a few other guys have gaudier counting stats. It's just the reasoning seems to change for JT in ways that somehow don't apply to anyone but him.

JT can't win MVP until he wins a ring, but it wasn't that way for Jokic, Embiid, Giannis etc and no one says it about Luka, SGA etc. JT can't win MVP because the Celtics are so stacked, but they have only two Allstars and one All NBA player just like numerous other teams. Etc.

Grumble grumble. Go get that Finals MVP, JT.

[Parliament10]

Read on Twitter

[Bar Fight]

He’s not gonna win MVP because he takes too many awful shots that tank his efficiency and his usage is not as high as other candidates. At the end of the day, it’s about counting stats/efficiency and his numbers just don’t stand out

[bisme37]

He’s not gonna win MVP because he takes too many awful shots that tank his efficiency and his usage is not as high as other candidates. At the end of the day, it’s about counting stats/efficiency and his numbers just don’t stand out

There's no official criteria for MVP but I've always thought of it as Most Valuable To Winning.

The Celtics are winning the most games by a comfortable margin and JT leads the team in points, rebounds, assists and steals. So take that for data haha.

I agree he will most likely not win it but I'm not exactly sure why. He's a very strong candidate imo. The only other players who've had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games are Giannis, Malone and Kareem - all 3 won MVP.

[Bar Fight]

He’s not gonna win MVP because he takes too many awful shots that tank his efficiency and his usage is not as high as other candidates. At the end of the day, it’s about counting stats/efficiency and his numbers just don’t stand out

There's no official criteria for MVP but I've always thought of it as Most Valuable To Winning.

The Celtics are winning the most games by a comfortable margin and JT leads the team in points, rebounds, assists and steals. So take that for data haha.

I agree he will most likely not win it but I'm not exactly sure why. He's a very strong candidate imo. The only other players who've had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games are Giannis, Malone and Kareem - all 3 won MVP.

The "best player on the best team" criteria was abandoned a long time ago though. It's mostly about numbers now. Too many guys putting up eye popping stats on better efficiency than JT who also have pretty good team records.

[bisme37]

He’s not gonna win MVP because he takes too many awful shots that tank his efficiency and his usage is not as high as other candidates. At the end of the day, it’s about counting stats/efficiency and his numbers just don’t stand out

There's no official criteria for MVP but I've always thought of it as Most Valuable To Winning.

The Celtics are winning the most games by a comfortable margin and JT leads the team in points, rebounds, assists and steals. So take that for data haha.

I agree he will most likely not win it but I'm not exactly sure why. He's a very strong candidate imo. The only other players who've had Tatum's stats for a team that won 75% of its games are Giannis, Malone and Kareem - all 3 won MVP.

The "best player on the best team" criteria was abandoned a long time ago though. It's mostly about numbers now. Too many guys putting up eye popping stats on better efficiency than JT who also have pretty good team records.

Fair enough. I don't personally like or agree with that criteria/explanation but it seems like most people think about it that way.

[playa-hater]

He’s not gonna win MVP because he takes too many awful shots that tank his efficiency and his usage is not as high as other candidates. At the end of the day, it’s about counting stats/efficiency and his numbers just don’t stand out

I agree 100 % with bold on both points. Tatum's usage rate is definitely behind most other MVP candidates and he certainly hurts his cause with many "ill-advised shots" that derail his efficiency.

But I also believe Tatum in the playoffs will play like an MVP level player. I don't think I am a homer when I say, when Tatum is playing his best only Jokic is better.

[snowman]

In looking at the standings for the Eastern conference, to determine home court advantage through the Eastern Conference finals, Boston has already won the season series verses every team in the current top 10 except the Bucks and the Hawks. We have two games left against both teams, and the series is tied at one each with both teams. As far as the Hawks go, I don't think we will have to worry about them. We need one more win against the Bucks to capture that series. As long as we don't do something stupid, the Bucks are the only team that has a chance to get home court from us. We do however have an 8 1/2 game lead on them with just 24 games left to go, 11 home, 13 away, 3 back to backs, 9 against non-playoff teams, 15 against playoff teams. The Bucks have 23 games left, 11 home, 12 away, 4 back to backs, but just 6 against non-playoff teams, and 17 against playoff teams.

[zoyathedestroya]

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[Fierce1]

It was obvious who Wyc was referring to when he said we're not bringing this team back.

KP replacing Rob is a no-brainer.

But early in the season some Celtic fans thought Marcus Smart is better than Jrue Holiday.

Smart never came close to the shooting % that Jrue has now.

And while Jrue is not as spectacular when it comes to making winning plays, Jrue works hard and is just as good as Smart on defense.

[165bows]

I've whined about this on the GB a bunch of times so I'm going to whine about it here this time instead haha...

There was a GB thread last week about Tatum's MVP chances and basically everyone said the C's are too stacked for him to win it. But now there's a thread about All NBA and a grand total of zero people have any other Celtic making All NBA. Ish just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not even saying he should be the MVP. I mean I'd like it but there are other great players and only one gets it. And a few other guys have gaudier counting stats. It's just the reasoning seems to change for JT in ways that somehow don't apply to anyone but him.

JT can't win MVP until he wins a ring, but it wasn't that way for Jokic, Embiid, Giannis etc and no one says it about Luka, SGA etc. JT can't win MVP because the Celtics are so stacked, but they have only two Allstars and one All NBA player just like numerous other teams. Etc.

Grumble grumble. Go get that Finals MVP, JT.

I’m sure you’ve seen my responses there but yes, it’s super disingenuous. People will flame empty selfish scorers but at the end of the day they choose guys that control the ball and create offense.

The hilarious one to me is Luka - it’s like we don’t have evidence that some of these same exact guys sucked in Dallas (KP, Grant) but thrive in Boston.

Basically if Tatum had a more selfish face but was more selfish about being the one to create more shots for others he’d have a much better shot.

[Fierce1]

One step at a time.

If JT wins a chip then his chances of winning MVP will increase.

This season it's unlikely JT wins regular season MVP.

But who knows, one big surge from JT, in March, could propel him to the top.

[Smart2Nesmith43]

In looking at the standings for the Eastern conference, to determine home court advantage through the Eastern Conference finals, Boston has already won the season series verses every team in the current top 10 except the Bucks and the Hawks. We have two games left against both teams, and the series is tied at one each with both teams. As far as the Hawks go, I don't think we will have to worry about them. We need one more win against the Bucks to capture that series. As long as we don't do something stupid, the Bucks are the only team that has a chance to get home court from us. We do however have an 8 1/2 game lead on them with just 24 games left to go, 11 home, 13 away, 3 back to backs, 9 against non-playoff teams, 15 against playoff teams. The Bucks have 23 games left, 11 home, 12 away, 4 back to backs, but just 6 against non-playoff teams, and 17 against playoff teams.

Homecourt advantage is determined by overall record not by head to head. The Celtics are on pace to lose 17 games this season. Everybody else in the conference has already lost at least 20. There isn't anything to worry about on that front.

[lon3lytoaster]

He’s not gonna win MVP because he takes too many awful shots that tank his efficiency and his usage is not as high as other candidates. At the end of the day, it’s about counting stats/efficiency and his numbers just don’t stand out

I agree 100 % with bold on both points. Tatum's usage rate is definitely behind most other MVP candidates and he certainly hurts his cause with many "ill-advised shots" that derail his efficiency.

But I also believe Tatum in the playoffs will play like an MVP level player. I don't think I am a homer when I say, when Tatum is playing his best only Jokic is better.

I think Tatum’s actual leap to an MVP player came this year when he’s been nothing but willing to take a step back as he starts to head into his prime to be an overall better teammate. He won’t get the votes because he isn’t averaging 30 this season but he’s been a much better player this year than last overall.

Almost definitely the best two way wing in a wing’s league. I imagine he’ll get an MVP in the next three years but it is a little wild he’s not more in consideration this year given how the team is slapping the snot out of everyone and he’s been their most consistent guy.

[Fencer reregistered]

The future pick situation is little different than I thought.

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

If I'm reading correctly, the Cs have traded away their 2nds for the next 6 years, but have secured other teams' real 2nds for the next 3 drafts, plus a couple of fake ones. (One of the fakes is completely nil; the other is a tradeable placeholder of negligible value.)

As for 1sts, the Cs have traded 2029 unprotected, plus the almost unprotected 2028 swap to San Antonio.

I looked into this after seeing a mock draft in which the Cs had 2 2nd-round picks, which seems to have been a mistake, plus the #30, which surprised me but seems correct.

[165bows]

The future pick situation is little different than I thought.

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

If I'm reading correctly, the Cs have traded away their 2nds for the next 6 years, but have secured other teams' real 2nds for the next 3 drafts, plus a couple of fake ones. (One of the fakes is completely nil; the other is a tradeable placeholder of negligible value.)

As for 1sts, the Cs have traded 2029 unprotected, plus the almost unprotected 2028 swap to San Antonio.

I looked into this after seeing a mock draft in which the Cs had 2 2nd-round picks, which seems to have been a mistake, plus the #30, which surprised me but seems correct.

Seems to square with what I've read. Tankathon won't take the Bulls' owed 2nd round pick off for some reason.

Looking at the future roster spots (or lack thereof), either taking a stash, a long-term two way project (ie, not a first round pick), or trading out for multiple future picks seems highly likely.

Otherwise if they take a guy that makes the real (non two-way) roster, I'd assume it's someone they really like.

Edit: here's the list, if they trade the first for future picks, it'll be from one of these seven teams: Houston, Memphis, Indiana, Okc, Portland, SA, or Washington.

[Curmudgeon]

Asa a team over the second apron their only way to improve is to draft and develop.

[brackdan70]

Asa a team over the second apron their only way to improve is to draft and develop.

Well they can still make trades as long as they don’t take back more salary than going out. They can resign their own guys with bird rights.
They currently have 12 guys on the roster who can legit play…only two of them are over 30 years old.
Additionally Queta can play meaningful minutes and Walsh and maybe Davison have a bright future.
They have set themselves up nicely to deal with the challenges of the second Apron.

[165bows]

The future pick situation is little different than I thought.

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

If I'm reading correctly, the Cs have traded away their 2nds for the next 6 years, but have secured other teams' real 2nds for the next 3 drafts, plus a couple of fake ones. (One of the fakes is completely nil; the other is a tradeable placeholder of negligible value.)

As for 1sts, the Cs have traded 2029 unprotected, plus the almost unprotected 2028 swap to San Antonio.

I looked into this after seeing a mock draft in which the Cs had 2 2nd-round picks, which seems to have been a mistake, plus the #30, which surprised me but seems correct.

Seems to square with what I've read. Tankathon won't take the Bulls' owed 2nd round pick off for some reason.

Looking at the future roster spots (or lack thereof), either taking a stash, a long-term two way project (ie, not a first round pick), or trading out for multiple future picks seems highly likely.

Otherwise if they take a guy that makes the real (non two-way) roster, I'd assume it's someone they really like.

Edit: here's the list, if they trade the first for future picks, it'll be from one of these seven teams: Houston, Memphis, Indiana, Okc, Portland, SA, or Washington.

Looking again I'd say it's Washington (#30 for a ton of future seconds), followed by SAS (#30 for #33+#44+etc), the other teams listed, then the field.

Washington made noise about highly valuing firsts (makes their hard reset look more promising), they really have very few young promising prospects, and they've got a lot of future seconds and look to still be in asset accumulation mode for the medium term.

So something like #30 for 2025 GS 2nd, 2026 CHI 2nd, 2027 Phoenix +/- GS 2nd, 2029 LAL second, they've still got a few others that look promising.