Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread

[djFan71]

Have you seen my post on the numbers? We're only off by the amount of Demetrius Jackson's dead/stretched money. Your original calculations were correct apart from that bit. That's without Baynes. I also posted the cap space if we still had Baynes on the books.

No, dang it. Lost it in all the notifications!
Stupid, cuz I have DJax on there in the "to use" column, but managed to delete him from the "count this" column. Argh. Well, I think my last MKG/Willy/Vonleh idea still works with that fudge factor in there.

I'll look into the scenario you laid out. So you want either MKG or Hernangomez coming back along with Kemba and Theis renounced? And hopefully enough space to another FA in the $3.3M range?

OK, redid it and here's what I think with barely any fudge factor. We can offer ~$2.9M.

Starting with Baynes and only Rozier hold (rescind Mook & Theis)

Starting Cap: $21.421433M
Sign Rozier/remove hold: $12.159905
Sign FA to $2.9M: $9.259905

MKG, Kemba, Hernangomez: $47.37674M. Min outgoing needed: $37.82139M
Baynes, Yabs, Semi, Terry: $28.601738M.
Difference: $9.21965M - just below what we have above.

Get Vonleh (or other) for $2.9M - better than vet min.

Kemba, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, RWIII
Smart, Langford, MKG, Vonleh, Kanter
Edwards, GWill, Hernangomez, vet min (Zaza, Pau, Nene)
Room for vet min or Waters/Fall.

$20.6M in tradeable contracts with Vonleh/MKG/Kanter.

[brackdan70]

If this scenario is legit then the Celtics are doing this for the Morris brothers in my opinion. That’s why rumors about either have been quiet

This makes me sad

Hope not

I tend to agree, but it could be to trade Mook elsewhere. We'll find out once kawhi decides.

Yeah thought of that after posting.

[Fencer reregistered]

BYC is only triggered after signing Rozier, not after trading him. We sign Rozier into cap space, so in this case, no BYC.

So the argument is that the Cs are still slightly below the cap after signing Rozier, but close enough that when they get Walker back they're nudged over the cap, and have MLE available accordingly?

Or, if there's a scenario that first they can bring more than Kemba back in the trade, what's the other outgoing salary besides Rozier/Baynes/Yabu?

[zoyathedestroya]

No, dang it. Lost it in all the notifications!
Stupid, cuz I have DJax on there in the "to use" column, but managed to delete him from the "count this" column. Argh. Well, I think my last MKG/Willy/Vonleh idea still works with that fudge factor in there.

I'll look into the scenario you laid out. So you want either MKG or Hernangomez coming back along with Kemba and Theis renounced? And hopefully enough space to another FA in the $3.3M range?

OK, redid it and here's what I think with barely any fudge factor. We can offer ~$2.9M.

Starting with Baynes and only Rozier hold (rescind Mook & Theis)

Starting Cap: $21.421433M
Sign Rozier/remove hold: $12.159905
Sign FA to $2.9M: $9.259905

MKG, Kemba, Hernangomez: $47.37674M. Min outgoing needed: $37.82139M
Baynes, Yabs, Semi, Terry: $28.601738M.
Difference: $9.21965M - just below what we have above.

Get Vonleh (or other) for $2.9M - better than vet min.

Kemba, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, RWIII
Smart, Langford, MKG, Vonleh, Kanter
Edwards, GWill, Hernangomez, vet min (Zaza, Pau, Nene)
Room for vet min or Waters/Fall.

$20.6M in tradeable contracts with Vonleh/MKG/Kanter.

I have a different starting salary cap room lol.

Questions:
1) When you renounced Theis, did you add back a roster charge?
2) Did you already take into account Jax's dead salary?
3) Kemba's new salary is $32,742,000.00, not the older $32,700,000.00 when cap figures weren't finalized yet.
4) salary-matching rules don't apply since we're absorbing all of the incoming money into cap space, right?

[zoyathedestroya]

BYC is only triggered after signing Rozier, not after trading him. We sign Rozier into cap space, so in this case, no BYC.

So the argument is that the Cs are still slightly below the cap after signing Rozier, but close enough that when they get Walker back they're nudged over the cap, and have MLE available accordingly?

Or, if there's a scenario that first they can bring more than Kemba back in the trade, what's the other outgoing salary besides Rozier/Baynes/Yabu?

I'm not sure if we get the MLE since we started as an under-the-cap team. But the remaining space created from earlier (see step #3 in this post) is already bigger than the full MLE. We could use that to sign an FA or absorb salary in a trade.

There's a scenario where you can add just enough salary on top of Kemba's and still fit everything into cap space post-trade (no salary matching needed). djFan is exploring the Kemba+MKG+Hernangomez scenario. I can't reconcile my computations with his.

All I could come up with is:
1. Renounce everyone except Rozier and Theis.
2. Sign Rozier using cap space.
3.Trade Rozier, Yabu, Baynes, Semi for Kemba, MKG, Hernangomez.
4. Sign rookies and Kanter.
5. Sign vet mins including Edwards.

Kemba / Brown / Tatum / Hayward / Kanter
Smart / Langford / MKG / G.Williams / R. Williams
Edwards / vet min / Theis / Hernangomez

Something like that.

djFan was able to generate $2.9M more cap space to be used on another FA. I had very little cap space left in my calculations.

[RickyDizzle]

Albert Nahmad
@AlbertNahmad
·
1h
Celtics would need to identify an opportunity (e.g., Morris, Cousins, Green, etc.) that justifies the needed compensation to division rivals Nets and/or Sixers for their assistance, and would face a hard cap at $138.9M.
Quote Tweet

Albert Nahmad
@AlbertNahmad
· 1h
Celtics can still try to expand S&T with Hornets for Kemba Walker/Terry Rozier to include S&T with either the Nets or Sixers for Kyrie Irving or Al Horford (or both, to create a $20M+ trade exception). Could then stay above cap, and slot Enes Kanter into MLE.

[RickyDizzle]

Albert Nahmad
@AlbertNahmad
·
1h
Celtics would need to identify an opportunity (e.g., Morris, Cousins, Green, etc.) that justifies the needed compensation to division rivals Nets and/or Sixers for their assistance, and would face a hard cap at $138.9M.
Quote Tweet

Albert Nahmad
@AlbertNahmad
· 1h
Celtics can still try to expand S&T with Hornets for Kemba Walker/Terry Rozier to include S&T with either the Nets or Sixers for Kyrie Irving or Al Horford (or both, to create a $20M+ trade exception). Could then stay above cap, and slot Enes Kanter into MLE.

The dream is still alive! At least until July 6th!

[djFan71]

I'll look into the scenario you laid out. So you want either MKG or Hernangomez coming back along with Kemba and Theis renounced? And hopefully enough space to another FA in the $3.3M range?

OK, redid it and here's what I think with barely any fudge factor. We can offer ~$2.9M.

Starting with Baynes and only Rozier hold (rescind Mook & Theis)

Starting Cap: $21.421433M
Sign Rozier/remove hold: $12.159905
Sign FA to $2.9M: $9.259905

MKG, Kemba, Hernangomez: $47.37674M. Min outgoing needed: $37.82139M
Baynes, Yabs, Semi, Terry: $28.601738M.
Difference: $9.21965M - just below what we have above.

Get Vonleh (or other) for $2.9M - better than vet min.

Kemba, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, RWIII
Smart, Langford, MKG, Vonleh, Kanter
Edwards, GWill, Hernangomez, vet min (Zaza, Pau, Nene)
Room for vet min or Waters/Fall.

$20.6M in tradeable contracts with Vonleh/MKG/Kanter.

I have a different starting salary cap room lol.

Questions:
1) When you renounced Theis, did you add back a roster charge?
2) Did you already take into account Jax's dead salary?
3) Kemba's new salary is $32,742,000.00, not the older $32,700,000.00 when cap figures weren't finalized yet.
4) salary-matching rules don't apply since we're absorbing all of the incoming money into cap space, right?

1. I have Hayward, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Langford, RWill, GWill, Semi, Yabu, Edwards for 10. Rozier cap hold for 11. Baynes for 12. So, no roster charge.
2. Yep. That gets me $87.7185O67, so the free cap above.
3. Missed that one. So, I'm off 0.042...
4. Not sure which piece you're talking here, but with the CHA/PHO trade we go well over the cap.

[zoyathedestroya]

OK, redid it and here's what I think with barely any fudge factor. We can offer ~$2.9M.

Starting with Baynes and only Rozier hold (rescind Mook & Theis)

Starting Cap: $21.421433M
Sign Rozier/remove hold: $12.159905
Sign FA to $2.9M: $9.259905

MKG, Kemba, Hernangomez: $47.37674M. Min outgoing needed: $37.82139M
Baynes, Yabs, Semi, Terry: $28.601738M.
Difference: $9.21965M - just below what we have above.

Get Vonleh (or other) for $2.9M - better than vet min.

Kemba, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, RWIII
Smart, Langford, MKG, Vonleh, Kanter
Edwards, GWill, Hernangomez, vet min (Zaza, Pau, Nene)
Room for vet min or Waters/Fall.

$20.6M in tradeable contracts with Vonleh/MKG/Kanter.

I have a different starting salary cap room lol.

Questions:
1) When you renounced Theis, did you add back a roster charge?
2) Did you already take into account Jax's dead salary?
3) Kemba's new salary is $32,742,000.00, not the older $32,700,000.00 when cap figures weren't finalized yet.
4) salary-matching rules don't apply since we're absorbing all of the incoming money into cap space, right?

1. I have Hayward, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Langford, RWill, GWill, Semi, Yabu, Edwards for 10. Rozier cap hold for 11. Baynes for 12. So, no roster charge.
2. Yep. That gets me $87.7185O67, so the free cap above.
3. Missed that one. So, I'm off 0.042...
4. Not sure which piece you're talking here, but with the CHA/PHO trade we go well over the cap.

So in outgoing salaries, you have: $28.601738M (Baynes, Yabs, Semi, Terry)
You're using the remaining cap space and adding it to those salaries to satisfy matching?

I'm not sure that's allowed. I think it has to be an actual player. So either Mook or Theis signing to that number and getting traded along with those guys. Who goes where, I'm not sure.

[djFan71]

I have a different starting salary cap room lol.

Questions:
1) When you renounced Theis, did you add back a roster charge?
2) Did you already take into account Jax's dead salary?
3) Kemba's new salary is $32,742,000.00, not the older $32,700,000.00 when cap figures weren't finalized yet.
4) salary-matching rules don't apply since we're absorbing all of the incoming money into cap space, right?

1. I have Hayward, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Langford, RWill, GWill, Semi, Yabu, Edwards for 10. Rozier cap hold for 11. Baynes for 12. So, no roster charge.
2. Yep. That gets me $87.7185O67, so the free cap above.
3. Missed that one. So, I'm off 0.042...
4. Not sure which piece you're talking here, but with the CHA/PHO trade we go well over the cap.

So in outgoing salaries, you have: $28.601738M (Baynes, Yabs, Semi, Terry)
You're using the remaining cap space and adding it to those salaries to satisfy matching?

I'm not sure that's allowed. I think it has to be an actual player. So either Mook or Theis signing to that number and getting traded along with those guys. Who goes where, I'm not sure.

Yep. That was my remaining question on it. I thought Sully00 said it was cool in a different thread a few lifetimes (days) ago. But, not positive.

The problem with signing guys and sending them somewhere is it makes my simple 3-team, CHA will definitely do it idea into a normal complicated 4 team that needs incentivizing. At that point, you're not doing that for MKG. You only do that for someone you truly want to acquire. I'd rather just give Theis the money and keep him as the salary ballast. Or split between him & Vonleh, etc. Then you're back to needing to get CHA to take Yabu, but that should be fairly low cost.

Anyways, I'm going to have to actually work today, so may let the universe/you sort this stuff out for a little bit. Thanks for all the help!

[sam_I_am]

Normally I think it’s fun to fantasize about possibilities but the salary cap rules aren’t fun at all. I think I will snooze on this and see what Ainge &co. come up with. In fact, I am assuming we are done and then will just be pleasantly surprised with outcome. Good luck figuring this out tho,

[zoyathedestroya]

Normally I think it’s fun to fantasize about possibilities but the salary cap rules aren’t fun at all. I think I will snooze on this and see what Ainge &co. come up with. In fact, I am assuming we are done and then will just be pleasantly surprised with outcome. Good luck figuring this out tho,

Three plus days left so I'm hoping we pull off something special. 'Cos it would be a waste if we couldn't come up with something creative to beef up our roster. Not necessarily expecting another star but mid-tier talent (bench scoring), a couple more vets, and some shooting. And I really don't want Kanter to be our starting center.

But if we're done, it would look something like this:

1) Renounce every FA except Rozier.
2) Sign Rozier to 3-yr/$58M contract starting at $18,412,698.00.
3) Trade Rozier for Kemba (signed to the max*). Unsure if Hornets will throw an asset our way.
*Kemba's salary is absorbed into our cap space. No MLE/no BAE/no TPE.
4) Sign Edwards to a 4-year deal w/ remaining cap space.
5) Sign Kanter w/ the room exception.
6) Sign Langford and G.Williams to rookie deals.
7) Sign Poirier to the veteran's minimum.
8) Maybe sign another vet.
9) Sign two-way guys (Waters, ??)

DONE.

Kemba / Brown / Tatum / Hayward / Kanter
Smart / Langford / Ojeleye / G. Williams / R.Williams
Edwards / vet wing / Yabusele / Poirier

Two-way: Waters, ??

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

Three plus days left so I'm hoping we pull off something special. 'Cos it would be a waste if we couldn't come up with something creative to beef up our roster. Not necessarily expecting another star but mid-tier talent (bench scoring), a couple more vets, and some shooting. And I really don't want Kanter to be our starting center.

But if we're done, it would look something like this:

1) Renounce every FA except Rozier.
2) Sign Rozier to 3-yr/$58M contract starting at $18,412,698.00.
3) Trade Rozier for Kemba (signed to the max*). Unsure if Hornets will throw an asset our way.
*Kemba's salary is absorbed into our cap space. No MLE/no BAE/no TPE.
4) Sign Edwards to a 4-year deal w/ remaining cap space.
5) Sign Kanter w/ the room exception.
6) Sign Langford and G.Williams to rookie deals.
7) Sign Poirier to the veteran's minimum.
8) Maybe sign another vet.
9) Sign two-way guys (Waters, ??)

DONE.

Kemba / Brown / Tatum / Hayward / Kanter
Smart / Langford / Ojeleye / G. Williams / R.Williams
Edwards / vet wing / Yabusele / Poirier

Two-way: Waters, ??

Seems right. So, CHA taking on Yabu swings from them possibly giving us an asset in 3, to definitely not. Then, maybe getting a small one back? Seems like a 2nd rounder could do the trick.

For that, I'd take the cap space and sign one more guy to contribute, and/or load up Theis on $. Split your magic cap $ between Vonleh and Theis? Just to have that trade salary for the deadline / next summer.

[djFan71]

lol, if we did that, we might end up too big heavy somehow.

Kemba, Smart, Edwards
Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Langford, Semi
RWIII, Kanter, Poirier, Vonleh, GWill, Theis


Maybe, renounce Theis. Split magic cap between Vonleh and TJ McConnell or Jeremy Lin?

[sully00]

1. I have Hayward, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Langford, RWill, GWill, Semi, Yabu, Edwards for 10. Rozier cap hold for 11. Baynes for 12. So, no roster charge.
2. Yep. That gets me $87.7185O67, so the free cap above.
3. Missed that one. So, I'm off 0.042...
4. Not sure which piece you're talking here, but with the CHA/PHO trade we go well over the cap.

So in outgoing salaries, you have: $28.601738M (Baynes, Yabs, Semi, Terry)
You're using the remaining cap space and adding it to those salaries to satisfy matching?

I'm not sure that's allowed. I think it has to be an actual player. So either Mook or Theis signing to that number and getting traded along with those guys. Who goes where, I'm not sure.

Yep. That was my remaining question on it. I thought Sully00 said it was cool in a different thread a few lifetimes (days) ago. But, not positive.

The problem with signing guys and sending them somewhere is it makes my simple 3-team, CHA will definitely do it idea into a normal complicated 4 team that needs incentivizing. At that point, you're not doing that for MKG. You only do that for someone you truly want to acquire. I'd rather just give Theis the money and keep him as the salary ballast. Or split between him & Vonleh, etc. Then you're back to needing to get CHA to take Yabu, but that should be fairly low cost.

Anyways, I'm going to have to actually work today, so may let the universe/you sort this stuff out for a little bit. Thanks for all the help!

I am not all in on the details of your discussion boys but if the question is can you use cap space to take on partial salary in a trade yes you can. That is what cap space is for.

[djFan71]

So in outgoing salaries, you have: $28.601738M (Baynes, Yabs, Semi, Terry)
You're using the remaining cap space and adding it to those salaries to satisfy matching?

I'm not sure that's allowed. I think it has to be an actual player. So either Mook or Theis signing to that number and getting traded along with those guys. Who goes where, I'm not sure.

Yep. That was my remaining question on it. I thought Sully00 said it was cool in a different thread a few lifetimes (days) ago. But, not positive.

The problem with signing guys and sending them somewhere is it makes my simple 3-team, CHA will definitely do it idea into a normal complicated 4 team that needs incentivizing. At that point, you're not doing that for MKG. You only do that for someone you truly want to acquire. I'd rather just give Theis the money and keep him as the salary ballast. Or split between him & Vonleh, etc. Then you're back to needing to get CHA to take Yabu, but that should be fairly low cost.

Anyways, I'm going to have to actually work today, so may let the universe/you sort this stuff out for a little bit. Thanks for all the help!

I am not all in on the details of your discussion boys but if the question is can you use cap space to take on partial salary in a trade yes you can. That is what cap space is for.

Just to make sure we're talking the same thing. The basic scenario with fake/easier #s:

You're $10M below cap.
You want to acquire players that require at least $20M outgoing salary to match (with above cap rules).
You want to send out players totaling $10M.

Can you combine that remaining $10M cap space with the outgoing $10M salary to satisfy the $20M match? Knowing that you end up OVER the cap when the trade is complete. If you end up under still, it's a no brainer. But with going over, is it legal to combine cap space & players to meet the outgoing salary requirements?

[sully00]

Yep. That was my remaining question on it. I thought Sully00 said it was cool in a different thread a few lifetimes (days) ago. But, not positive.

The problem with signing guys and sending them somewhere is it makes my simple 3-team, CHA will definitely do it idea into a normal complicated 4 team that needs incentivizing. At that point, you're not doing that for MKG. You only do that for someone you truly want to acquire. I'd rather just give Theis the money and keep him as the salary ballast. Or split between him & Vonleh, etc. Then you're back to needing to get CHA to take Yabu, but that should be fairly low cost.

Anyways, I'm going to have to actually work today, so may let the universe/you sort this stuff out for a little bit. Thanks for all the help!

I am not all in on the details of your discussion boys but if the question is can you use cap space to take on partial salary in a trade yes you can. That is what cap space is for.

Just to make sure we're talking the same thing. The basic scenario with fake/easier #s:

You're $10M below cap.
You want to acquire players that require at least $20M outgoing salary to match (with above cap rules).
You want to send out players totaling $10M.

Can you combine that remaining $10M cap space with the outgoing $10M salary to satisfy the $20M match? Knowing that you end up OVER the cap when the trade is complete. If you end up under still, it's a no brainer. But with going over, is it legal to combine cap space & players to meet the outgoing salary requirements?

Yes teams do it all the time. What complicates it is the signing of new contracts because S&T have their own rules.

Look at this way you can use cap space how ever you want to to acquire salary. When you make a trade you are acquiring salary not matching salaries. So the first 10 mil is your cap space and then you send out 10 mil in salary to create the space to take on 20 mil. By trading your 10 mil dollar player you basically adding to your cap space.

Because you end up over the cap at the end of the trade you can also use the Traded Player Exception and since both teams should be under the lux tax after the trade you can use the non tax payer rules not important for Kemba but could be useful with the other pieces you try to move.

[djFan71]

I am not all in on the details of your discussion boys but if the question is can you use cap space to take on partial salary in a trade yes you can. That is what cap space is for.

Just to make sure we're talking the same thing. The basic scenario with fake/easier #s:

You're $10M below cap.
You want to acquire players that require at least $20M outgoing salary to match (with above cap rules).
You want to send out players totaling $10M.

Can you combine that remaining $10M cap space with the outgoing $10M salary to satisfy the $20M match? Knowing that you end up OVER the cap when the trade is complete. If you end up under still, it's a no brainer. But with going over, is it legal to combine cap space & players to meet the outgoing salary requirements?

Yes teams do it all the time. What complicates it is the signing of new contracts because S&T have their own rules.

Look at this way you can use cap space how ever you want to to acquire salary. When you make a trade you are acquiring salary not matching salaries. So the first 10 mil is your cap space and then you send out 10 mil in salary to create the space to take on 20 mil. By trading your 10 mil dollar player you basically adding to your cap space.

Because you end up over the cap at the end of the trade you can also use the Traded Player Exception and since both teams should be under the lux tax after the trade you can use the non tax payer rules not important for Kemba but could be useful with the other pieces you try to move.

OK, thanks. That's what I thought and why we came up with it. But, people have questioned it and I've never found the right spot in the CBA to specifically say yes, here's where it says so.

[zoyathedestroya]

Updated to reflect Theis potential signing.

Three plus days left so I'm hoping we pull off something special. 'Cos it would be a waste if we couldn't come up with something creative to beef up our roster. Not necessarily expecting another star but mid-tier talent (bench scoring), a couple more vets, and some shooting. And I really don't want Kanter to be our starting center.

But if we're done, it would look something like this:

1) Renounce every FA except Rozier.
2) Sign Rozier to 3-yr/$58M contract starting at $18,412,698.00.
3) Trade Rozier for Kemba (signed to the max*). Unsure if Hornets will throw an asset our way.
*Kemba's salary is absorbed into our cap space. No MLE/no BAE/no TPE.
4) Sign Edwards to a 4-year deal w/ remaining cap space.
5) Sign Theis using Early Bird Rights.
6) Sign Kanter w/ the room exception.
7) Sign Langford and G.Williams to rookie deals.
8) Sign Poirier to the veteran's minimum.
9) Maybe sign another vet.
10) Sign two-way guys (Waters, ??)

DONE.

Kemba / Brown / Tatum / Hayward / Kanter
Smart / Langford / Ojeleye / G. Williams / R.Williams
Edwards / vet wing / Yabusele / Poirier

Two-way: Waters, ??

[sully00]

From looking at how Spotrac has accounted for the trade as it currently stands Boston was able to make the deal without renouncing Morris. I am thinking that Boston was able to get under the cap by a couple of million more than Rozier's salary and aggregate it with Baynes outgoing salary in the deal with PHX. Rozier at 18.4 and Baynes at 5.4 creates enough salary to take back 29.85 mil so they would need another 3 mil in cap space.