The (Where Ainges Fear to) Trade Thread, 2016-17 (1.0)

[jmr07019]

Vucevic is making roughly 12, 12.5 and 13 this year and the next 2. In a league where I fully expect Noel and KO to be looking at 15/year Vucevic is a pretty good deal. Potentially a steal. He would be a huge upgrade in the rebounding department.

What will it take to get him? Rozier and KO enough?

I think acquiring him will screw up our max cap space though.

Yeah, it's the latter that matters more to me. I want to add a max level talent while IT/AB/Jae/Smart still cost less than a max combined.

Vuc is the kind of contract that will make it easier to keep AB and IT and Smart in 2 years, but who cares if adding him prevented us from adding a max talent?

If we're going to give up on max FA, it should be for a bigger impact player, not for a guy that will make it more economical to keep winning 50+ games and lose to the superteams. If the impact players aren't available or worth the price, we should go for expiring vet band-aids or higher-upside guys.

I wouldn't trade for Vuc this year but if we miss on Blake I'd strongly consider it. The reason we are able to make a good pitch to FA's is because we have good players on undermarkwt deals. Adding more of those guys extends our window of being able to do so but you will have to say goodbye to one or possibly two of IT, AB or Smart the next offseason.

This is the last offseason where we have those 4 guys on cheap deals. The other option would be to roll over cap space and hope you can snag Cousins, George Westbrook the following FA and resign 2 of IT, AB and smart.

[cl2117]

Tyson Chandler's averaging 12.7 boards through the first three games. Phoenix is going nowhere fast (about to go 0-4). Chandler's money seemed too big at the time, but he's currently only the 17th highest paid center (actually the 21st now that Rudy, Dieng, Cody Zeller, and Adams just upped their deals). He's aging but he'd fill a giant need, is better than Amir, and he could slide Horford to PF, where he belongs. He's is still good on D and would be pumped to go to a playoff team and get out of Phoenix.

Tyson Chandler's deal isn't killer right now, but he's got 2 more years and there is no way it's not when he is 35/36.My biggest worry with Al is that he's going to run out of steam by the playoffs, that's a an even bigger concern with Chandler.

If we were like the Warriors or Cavs and favored to be in the finals, I'd consider doing it to push us over the top, but given that we're in a tier below we can't be making short sighted decisions that are going to hinder us for 2 more years, which is exactly what Chandler is. He's the definition of short-term gain at the expense of the long term when you're gonna be dragging him off the bench at 36 paying him 13.5m.

OK, name 3 other younger centers that we can potentially add to our roster that are better than Tyler Zeller and Chandler? 13 mil is peanuts for a big man right now. It would not hinder us, considering we play the corpse of Amir Johnson for the same pay right now and that's coming off the books either if we deal him for Chandler, or let him walk next year. We had Johnson tying up 13 mil this year. Did it hinder us in getting anyone?? We already have the highest paid center in the league in Horford, so how much more are we going to feasibly spend on our front court, and that it won't be a giant overpay? If we had a plethora of other options of guys who can get you double digit rebounds on any given night, I'd maybe agree with you.

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings/cap-hit/center/

Show me one center on this list from 1-25 that we have a chance at getting. After Tyler Zeller at 26, there isn't anyone really better except the young guys still on rookie deals whose next contract will be huge increases.

Chandler would keep us competitive for at least this year and next.

The "corpse of Amir" comes off the books next year, which is his advantage over Chandler. Chandler is looking good 4 games in, but was awful last season and has father time working against him. You do not want to be paying him 13m for this year plus 2 more, when you can have Amir for 1 year and then open that space up to chase whomever you want. The ability to wave Zeller/Amir/Jerebko is what allows us to open max cap space next summer. Tyson would mess that up.

On that list I think Bogut is the guy who stands out as being the best option. Expiring so we don't have to worry about him messing up next year's cap room, still good enough to fix some of our issues this year and he's likely going to be cheap if Dallas is out of the playoff hunt (looking likely).

If I was going to get a guy off that list that wasn't expiring I'd be looking at guys like Vucevic or Gortat or Henson who are younger and less likely to break down and be an albatross, but still help now. I'd also look at PFs who would help on the boards like Faried or Ed Davis. I wouldn't want to bother with a guy on a multi-year deal because of the cap implications, but if I did I wouldn't want a guy who just turned 34.

[Green89]

The "corpse of Amir" comes off the books next year, which is his advantage over Chandler. Chandler is looking good 4 games in, but was awful last season and has father time working against him. You do not want to be paying him 13m for this year plus 2 more, when you can have Amir for 1 year and then open that space up to chase whomever you want. The ability to wave Zeller/Amir/Jerebko is what allows us to open max cap space next summer. Tyson would mess that up.

On that list I think Bogut is the guy who stands out as being the best option. Expiring so we don't have to worry about him messing up next year's cap room, still good enough to fix some of our issues this year and he's likely going to be cheap if Dallas is out of the playoff hunt (looking likely).

If I was going to get a guy off that list that wasn't expiring I'd be looking at guys like Vucevic or Gortat or Henson who are younger and less likely to break down and be an albatross, but still help now. I'd also look at PFs who would help on the boards like Faried or Ed Davis. I wouldn't want to bother with a guy on a multi-year deal because of the cap implications, but if I did I wouldn't want a guy who just turned 34.

I just don't see many younger options becoming available. It will take a while for Cuban to admit defeat and start blowing it up and dealing Bogut.

You worry about Chandler not holding up, how about Amir looking young and spry in game 1, and then old and bedridden in the next few games. With us suddenly being the best shooting team in the league (which will probably drop with Smart entering the games this week) our big gaping hole is a rebounding big.

[cl2117]

Vucevic is making roughly 12, 12.5 and 13 this year and the next 2. In a league where I fully expect Noel and KO to be looking at 15/year Vucevic is a pretty good deal. Potentially a steal. He would be a huge upgrade in the rebounding department.

What will it take to get him? Rozier and KO enough?

I think acquiring him will screw up our max cap space though.

Yeah, it's the latter that matters more to me. I want to add a max level talent while IT/AB/Jae/Smart still cost less than a max combined.

Vuc is the kind of contract that will make it easier to keep AB and IT and Smart in 2 years, but who cares if adding him prevented us from adding a max talent?

If we're going to give up on max FA, it should be for a bigger impact player, not for a guy that will make it more economical to keep winning 50+ games and lose to the superteams. If the impact players aren't available or worth the price, we should go for expiring vet band-aids or higher-upside guys.

I wouldn't trade for Vuc this year but if we miss on Blake I'd strongly consider it. The reason we are able to make a good pitch to FA's is because we have good players on undermarkwt deals. Adding more of those guys extends our window of being able to do so but you will have to say goodbye to one or possibly two of IT, AB or Smart the next offseason.

This is the last offseason where we have those 4 guys on cheap deals. The other option would be to roll over cap space and hope you can snag Cousins, George Westbrook the following FA and resign 2 of IT, AB and smart.

The one thing that would make me consider Vuc this year is the fact that I think he's easily moved on that contract. He's 26, plays a position of need league-wide and makes on average $12m.

If the opportunity came up to snag a max level FA, it shouldn't be a problem to move him to create that space. You'd probably do it at a steep discount for expediency and so you'd lose out based on what we'd have to give up to get him, but it's not like you'd be stuck with him.

On the other side you'd also now have him in the fold in case you do strike out and then at least you've got him and can add another top 5 pick and keep building.

I'm hoping he holds out to preserve cap space flexibility because I think we still need another big fish not more mid-tier talents. If they can get an expiring stop gap for cheap like Bogut that's ideal.

[cl2117]

The "corpse of Amir" comes off the books next year, which is his advantage over Chandler. Chandler is looking good 4 games in, but was awful last season and has father time working against him. You do not want to be paying him 13m for this year plus 2 more, when you can have Amir for 1 year and then open that space up to chase whomever you want. The ability to wave Zeller/Amir/Jerebko is what allows us to open max cap space next summer. Tyson would mess that up.

On that list I think Bogut is the guy who stands out as being the best option. Expiring so we don't have to worry about him messing up next year's cap room, still good enough to fix some of our issues this year and he's likely going to be cheap if Dallas is out of the playoff hunt (looking likely).

If I was going to get a guy off that list that wasn't expiring I'd be looking at guys like Vucevic or Gortat or Henson who are younger and less likely to break down and be an albatross, but still help now. I'd also look at PFs who would help on the boards like Faried or Ed Davis. I wouldn't want to bother with a guy on a multi-year deal because of the cap implications, but if I did I wouldn't want a guy who just turned 34.

I just don't see many younger options becoming available. It will take a while for Cuban to admit defeat and start blowing it up and dealing Bogut.

You worry about Chandler not holding up, how about Amir looking young and spry in game 1, and then old and bedridden in the next few games. With us suddenly being the best shooting team in the league (which will probably drop with Smart entering the games this week) our big gaping hole is a rebounding big.

You're just looking at this WAY too short-sided. Chandler showed last year that he is on the decline. It'd be foolish to take him on when he's still got 3 years left on his contract when he will get in the way of us making other moves and isn't the kind of piece that is going to push us over the top. He's only going to get worse as time wears on, so you're going to be back in this same boat next year and the year after as Chandler gets more and more ineffective, but you'll have less money to address it because you're paying him $13m a year.

Almost ANY option is going to be younger than Chandler. He's just too old and paid too much.

[Curmudgeon]

Chandler is paid too much? Gorgui Dieng just got 4 years at $16M per. Cody Zeller just got 4 years at $14M per.

I'll take the declining Chandler over either of those guys, thank you very much.

[cl2117]

Chandler is paid too much? Gorgui Dieng just got 4 years at $16M per. Cody Zeller just got 4 years at $14M per.

I'll take the declining Chandler over either of those guys, thank you very much.

Declining will be a nice way of putting it when he completely falls off the cliff at some point over the next 3 years. My guess is that it'll be sooner rather than later, but he'll be 34, 35 and 36, there is no way he doesn't deteriorate significantly. If last year was any indication then it's already started.

At least with the likes of Zeller/Dieng their bodies aren't going to fail them over those deals even if they're $1m and $3m more expensive per year. Chandler is going to be an albatross.

[Curmudgeon]

Chandler had 18 rebounds the other night. If that's "falling off a cliff" I'll take it.

[OFWGKTA]

Should I start hitting up Larry Sanders again?

[truth18]

Should I start hitting up Larry Sanders again?

Idk, I found his last batch of meth questionable. Going to take my talents somewhere else.

[ddb]

there is absolutely no reason to talk trade for a few weeks until we know more about this team. We're 2-1 and only going to get better and better as the season rolls on. Stay calm.

[Green89]

Almost ANY option is going to be younger than Chandler. He's just too old and paid too much.

OK, name some of those "ANY" options.

Chandler isn't ideal at all and I'd love better if they were out there, but my main point would be is there anyone out there better for any less money who can put up close to his numbers, or anyone out there younger but around the same money? Answer: no, unless you can define for us your "ANY". Bogut isn't that much younger than Chandler, and is very injury prone. How did he do in the playoffs for Golden State last season?

And again, did Amir's 13 million prohibit us from going after who we wanted this offseason?? Not at all. Chandler's salary would not bog us down.

[Green89]

there is absolutely no reason to talk trade for a few weeks until we know more about this team. We're 2-1 and only going to get better and better as the season rolls on. Stay calm.

We desperately need a rebounder now and I don't need 5 minutes more of seeing them on the court to realize that. Ain't no way Bradley and Rozier crashing the boards game after game is going to sustain us much further.

We were 5th in team rebounds per game last season. We're currently sitting at 25th.

[Banks2Pierce]

And again, did Amir's 13 million prohibit us from going after who we wanted this offseason?? Not at all. Chandler's salary would not bog us down.

That is not how it works. Chandler's 13 million would have to be hurdled by including 1sts to ship him out or we'd have to trade guys like AB to get max space. Non starter.

[Green89]

And again, did Amir's 13 million prohibit us from going after who we wanted this offseason?? Not at all. Chandler's salary would not bog us down.

That is not how it works. Chandler's 13 million would have to be hurdled by including 1sts to ship him out or we'd have to trade guys like AB to get max space. Non starter.

Ainge wouldn't throw in a first round pick for Chandler. Amir's salary matches on its own, but I'll gladly thrown in James Young, too!

[pasfru]

I feel like rebounding has been a problem on this team ever since we traded Perk.

I've kind of given up complaining and just learned to live with it.

[cl2117]

Almost ANY option is going to be younger than Chandler. He's just too old and paid too much.

OK, name some of those "ANY" options.

Chandler isn't ideal at all and I'd love better if they were out there, but my main point would be is there anyone out there better for any less money who can put up close to his numbers, or anyone out there younger but around the same money? Answer: no, unless you can define for us your "ANY". Bogut isn't that much younger than Chandler, and is very injury prone. How did he do in the playoffs for Golden State last season?

And again, did Amir's 13 million prohibit us from going after who we wanted this offseason?? Not at all. Chandler's salary would not bog us down.

What I'm saying is that Chandler is one of the oldest guys in the league, it'd be harder to find an older option than he is.

And I literally did name options: Bogut, Vuc, Ed Davis, Gortat, Faried. They are all younger than Chandler and at least 1 of them will likely be avialable. They are all either comparably priced or cheaper as well and each of them gives you comparable stats per 36 (Tyson last year was 10/12, they are all respectively 9/12, 20/10, 11/12, 16/12, 10/13). But none of them are 34!

So there are 5 options of the top of my head that are younger, cheaper and put up similar/better numbers. I'm sure there are others.

And again I don't think you understand the ins and outs of roster construction because Amir would have been let go last year had we landed Durant because this year was non-guaranteed for him. The same cannot be said about Tyson, so if we wanted to dump him next year in order to bring in a max guy, we'd have to trade him and it's going to be tough to find a team to take him without wanting something to eat his contract.

[Banks2Pierce]

Ainge wouldn't throw in a first round pick for Chandler. Amir's salary matches on its own, but I'll gladly thrown in James Young, too!

No, we'd have to include 1st round picks with Tyson Chandler to get another team to take him. Would be a baaaaddd trade.

[Slartibartfast]

And again, did Amir's 13 million prohibit us from going after who we wanted this offseason?? Not at all. Chandler's salary would not bog us down.

That is not how it works. Chandler's 13 million would have to be hurdled by including 1sts to ship him out or we'd have to trade guys like AB to get max space. Non starter.

Ainge wouldn't throw in a first round pick for Chandler. Amir's salary matches on its own, but I'll gladly thrown in James Young, too!

It's not the cost of acquiring Chandler, but cost of having him or getting rid of him - Amir's $12 mil didn't matter so much this offseason, but we signed this guy named Al Horford to a max deal. That gives us a lot less wiggle room going forward.

You only trade for Tyson Chandler if you are giving up on FA as a route to add star talent.

[FakeScreenName123]

Suns fans would be thrilled to get rid of Chandler