Trade/Free Agency Thread 2023-24, part 10 and Counting . . .

[cl2117]

With Stevens vs. Warren, the question is do you want upside or do you want floor?

Despite being older Warren is the upside play. Prior to getting injured he had a two-three year stretch where he was phenomenal. For the two years prior (100 game sample size) he was a 40%+ shooter from three. He struggled a lot last year but that's somewhat to be expected coming off a year of being out of action. With another season under his belt, if he can get back closer to what he was he could be a massive steal. That's a big "if" though and the injury concerns are a whole topic of their own, but the upside is there potentially if you're willing to pay the minor cost to take the ride.

Stevens on the other hand might not have a high ceiling but he seems like a player with a rock solid floor. His clear limitation is his inability to shoot from range, which is unlikely to change for him, but he's a scrappy defender and a hustle guy. Given what we just lost in Smart, Stevens could be a bargain basement version off the bench. Don't expect a ton out of him, but he'd be another tool for the toolbox.

I'm almost tempted to say give me Stevens and let it be an open competition between him Walsh and Brissett for those defensive wing minutes. With Warren I think you'd run the risk of Joe deferring to TJ because he's the vet with the pedigree when I think it's a toss up as to who has the better season next year between him, Stevens, Walsh and Brissett. It puts me off a bit to think that name brand recognition would potentially get in the way of the best lineup. It was one of the things I was initially worried about with Blake until they unveiled their plan with him. I'm guessing Stevens will come in with less of a chip on his shoulder which might fare better.

Ultimately though with the 14th spot I'd go upside and take Warren. The cost vs. the reward seems too good to pass up even if he ends up just a towel waiver.

[cl2117]

Does this team really need Banton? He was awful in the summer league. Not a fan of that signing at the moment and I'm not sure what Brad saw in him. Hope he proves me wrong.

I love the Banton signing actually.

He probably doesn't ever make his way into the rotation but his physical profile is insane. 6'9 with a 6'10 wingspan and he can actually handle the ball like a guard. He can't shoot from outside to save his life but that's why he's available for the minimum. If he could shoot at his size/length, he'd be making eight figures.

I like buying that lottery ticket, especially since his size gives you a lot of versatility. He's a deep bench guy you can put out there with a ton of lineups even if he's not running the point. Plus he's fun to watch. Always attacking the basket, pushing the pace. Toronto fans seemed pretty disappointed he wasn't coming back, which is usually a really good sign.

[MeanGeraldGreen]

Banton is going to work out here, gut feeling. He has a skill set that we lack, and he forces a bunch of turnovers defensively.

Digging into the good advanced/impact stats, there’s a lot to like.

[snowman]

Setting aside the fact that White, Brown, Tatum, Rob (probably) and Porzingis will be the starters, if we get Warren or Stevens our bench is deep.
I think, if Warren is healthy, he is the tight call here. Stevens would be a close second. We really don't need both of them. Brissett and Stevens are too close in what they bring to sign him unless Warren is still not ready to go hard for 15-18 minutes a game.

Brogdon, Hauser, Warren, Brissett, Horford gives you shooting with Brogdon and Hauser, scoring from Warren, hustle and defense from Brissett and rim protection and rebounding from Horford. I like the fact that Hauser, Warren and Brissett are all 6'7 - 6'8. Add is Pritchard, Banton, Walsh, Kornet, Davison and Scrub that's a pretty deep team.

Then I think we need, with the 15th open roster spot or the 3rd 2-way spot, another insurance big:
I don't like going into the season with just our 4 big men and needing them to stay healthy all season. Porzingis will play limited minutes so his foot issue is manageable, and we know Horford will not play back to backs. We also need to watch Rob's minutes with his history. With 96 minutes a game between PF and Center, Al, Rob and Porzingis would avg 30-32 minutes a game, with some minutes going to Kornet. I do not want to count on Kornet alone as insurance, and if one of Porzingis, Rob or Al is out, I also don't want Kornet to have to play 30+ minutes in ANY game. I'm not sure Blake is the answer again. I know that Tatum may play some 4, but I think Brad wants to keep him at the 3 for an even greater advantage. So, I think we need one more player 6'10 or more to fill in that gap. That player could even be on a 2-way contract, if you can find one.

[Celts17Pride]

Setting aside the fact that White, Brown, Tatum, Rob (probably) and Porzingis will be the starters, if we get Warren or Stevens our bench is deep.
I think, if Warren is healthy, he is the tight call here. Stevens would be a close second. We really don't need both of them. Brissett and Stevens are too close in what they bring to sign him unless Warren is still not ready to go hard for 15-18 minutes a game.

Brogdon, Hauser, Warren, Brissett, Horford gives you shooting with Brogdon and Hauser, scoring from Warren, hustle and defense from Brissett and rim protection and rebounding from Horford. I like the fact that Hauser, Warren and Brissett are all 6'7 - 6'8. Add is Pritchard, Banton, Walsh, Kornet, Davison and Scrub that's a pretty deep team.

Then I think we need, with the 15th open roster spot or the 3rd 2-way spot, another insurance big:
I don't like going into the season with just our 4 big men and needing them to stay healthy all season. Porzingis will play limited minutes so his foot issue is manageable, and we know Horford will not play back to backs. We also need to watch Rob's minutes with his history. With 96 minutes a game between PF and Center, Al, Rob and Porzingis would avg 30-32 minutes a game, with some minutes going to Kornet. I do not want to count on Kornet alone as insurance, and if one of Porzingis, Rob or Al is out, I also don't want Kornet to have to play 30+ minutes in ANY game. I'm not sure Blake is the answer again. I know that Tatum may play some 4, but I think Brad wants to keep him at the 3 for an even greater advantage. So, I think we need one more player 6'10 or more to fill in that gap. That player could even be on a 2-way contract, if you can find one.

Really doesn't matter but I would be shocked if Horford is not the starter and R Williams III comes off the bench.

[ddb]

Does this team really need Banton? He was awful in the summer league. Not a fan of that signing at the moment and I'm not sure what Brad saw in him. Hope he proves me wrong.

Give him more time to show you what he can do. I like him. He was rushed into that summer league situation and didn't have any practice time with that group.
He's not a shooter, but he does a lot of other stuff that turn heads. Let's see how he does. With that said, I don't see much playing time available for him behind White, JB, Brogdon, and Pritchard.

[Hal14]

Does this team really need Banton? He was awful in the summer league. Not a fan of that signing at the moment and I'm not sure what Brad saw in him. Hope he proves me wrong.

He wasn't awful in summer league. He had some moments where he looked a little bit shaky. But he also had a few moments where he really popped.

And he only played in TWO summer league games. That's a tiny sample size. Way too small of a sample size for it to even be worth discussing.

Oh, and the 2 games he played in were our 3rd and 4th games. Which means he was having to play catch up, after sitting out the first couple of games (and also joining the team late so he had less practice time prior to SL than everyone else) compared to the others on the the team who were in rhythm, had 2 games under their belt playing together to build chemistry and then here comes Banton the new guy in game 3, with no chemistry built with these guys yet. Plus the teams we were playing against all had 2-3 games under their belt playing together, while Banton was coming in cold playing in his 1st game.

And on top of that, he was playing with an injured finger (the reason why he sat out the first 2 games) and probably a reason why his jumper was off.

Look, as it stands now, Banton is the 13th man (on a roster that currently has 13 guys) and once we sign another 1 or 2 guys, he'll probably be the 14th man - or maybe even the 15th man. This is like people complaining last season about Justin Jackson being on the team. Like, who cares, it's the last man at the end of the bench. It's not gonna make or break our title chances at all.

Banton though, I would think is pretty good compared to most 13th-15th men out there on a roster right now. He's at least got upside, potential. The potential is being a 6'9" PG. How many of those have there ever been? Magic and Ben Simmons, that's pretty much it. Magic is the best PG of all time. And Simmons was an all-NBA player before he stopped caring about basketball and had some injuries.

For a 6'9" dude, he can handle the ball very well, can get to his spots, is able to get downhill, and does a nice job of seeing the whole floor - even while he's handling the ball and getting to his spots. Makes pretty good decisions in terms of when to drive, when to take it all the way to the rim, when to dish it out, when to shoot. He's not a great defender but he's decent enough defensively, and since he's still just 23 yrs old so can get better (on D and on offense too). And with his length (6'9" with a 6'10.25" wingspan) it helps him to be disruptive defensively and allow the Celtics to put out a very big lineup with Banton at PG.

His shooting is obviously an area he needs to keep working at. But from the film I've seen, his form has improved over the past couple of yrs in Toronto. He just has to keep getting more reps, and perhaps our coaches will be able to tweak some things with his shot as well. Even without the shot, he could still be a solid player with his ability to run an offense, facilitate, find the open man, push the pace, pressure the rim and play solid D. If the shot comes along, he could *really* emerge as a factor for us.

Lastly, I know we shouldn't put too much stock in random offseason open run footage, but take a look at this. Banton looks very comfortable out there with the ball in his hands, he looks like a legit floor general. Dropping dimes left and right and also scoring on drives to the basket. Again, doing a nice job of knowing when to drive, when to take it to the rim himself and when to dish it..

Watch on YouTube

[ddb]

Setting aside the fact that White, Brown, Tatum, Rob (probably) and Porzingis will be the starters, if we get Warren or Stevens our bench is deep.
I think, if Warren is healthy, he is the tight call here. Stevens would be a close second. We really don't need both of them. Brissett and Stevens are too close in what they bring to sign him unless Warren is still not ready to go hard for 15-18 minutes a game.

Brogdon, Hauser, Warren, Brissett, Horford gives you shooting with Brogdon and Hauser, scoring from Warren, hustle and defense from Brissett and rim protection and rebounding from Horford. I like the fact that Hauser, Warren and Brissett are all 6'7 - 6'8. Add is Pritchard, Banton, Walsh, Kornet, Davison and Scrub that's a pretty deep team.

Then I think we need, with the 15th open roster spot or the 3rd 2-way spot, another insurance big:
I don't like going into the season with just our 4 big men and needing them to stay healthy all season. Porzingis will play limited minutes so his foot issue is manageable, and we know Horford will not play back to backs. We also need to watch Rob's minutes with his history. With 96 minutes a game between PF and Center, Al, Rob and Porzingis would avg 30-32 minutes a game, with some minutes going to Kornet. I do not want to count on Kornet alone as insurance, and if one of Porzingis, Rob or Al is out, I also don't want Kornet to have to play 30+ minutes in ANY game. I'm not sure Blake is the answer again. I know that Tatum may play some 4, but I think Brad wants to keep him at the 3 for an even greater advantage. So, I think we need one more player 6'10 or more to fill in that gap. That player could even be on a 2-way contract, if you can find one.

Really doesn't matter but I would be shocked if Horford is not the starter and R Williams III comes off the bench.

Probably the most likely scenario is both Timelord AND AL are starting while Kristaps is rehabbing his foot. Too soon? URGH I just puked thinking about that. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

[ddb]

Does this team really need Banton? He was awful in the summer league. Not a fan of that signing at the moment and I'm not sure what Brad saw in him. Hope he proves me wrong.

He wasn't awful in summer league. He had some moments where he looked a little bit shaky. But he also had a few moments where he really popped.

And he only played in TWO summer league games. That's a tiny sample size. Way too small of a sample size for it to even be worth discussing.

Oh, and the 2 games he played in were our 3rd and 4th games. Which means he was having to play catch up, after sitting out the first couple of games (and also joining the team late so he had less practice time prior to SL than everyone else) compared to the others on the the team who were in rhythm, had 2 games under their belt playing together to build chemistry and then here comes Banton the new guy in game 3, with no chemistry built with these guys yet. Plus the teams we were playing against all had 2-3 games under their belt playing together, while Banton was coming in cold playing in his 1st game.

And on top of that, he was playing with an injured finger (the reason why he sat out the first 2 games) and probably a reason why his jumper was off.

Look, as it stands now, Banton is the 13th man (on a roster that currently has 13 guys) and once we sign another 1 or 2 guys, he'll probably be the 14th man - or maybe even the 15th man. This is like people complaining last season about Justin Jackson being on the team. Like, who cares, it's the last man at the end of the bench. It's not gonna make or break our title chances at all.

Banton though, I would think is pretty good compared to most 13th-15th men out there on a roster right now. He's at least got upside, potential. The potential is being a 6'9" PG. How many of those have there ever been? Magic and Ben Simmons, that's pretty much it. Magic is the best PG of all time. And Simmons was an all-NBA player before he stopped caring about basketball and had some injuries.

For a 6'9" dude, he can handle the ball very well, can get to his spots, is able to get downhill, and does a nice job of seeing the whole floor - even while he's handling the ball and getting to his spots. Makes pretty good decisions in terms of when to drive, when to take it all the way to the rim, when to dish it out, when to shoot. He's not a great defender but he's decent enough defensively, and since he's still just 23 yrs old so can get better (on D and on offense too). And with his length (6'9" with a 6'10.25" wingspan) it helps him to be disruptive defensively and allow the Celtics to put out a very big lineup with Banton at PG.

His shooting is obviously an area he needs to keep working at. But from the film I've seen, his form has improved over the past couple of yrs in Toronto. He just has to keep getting more reps, and perhaps our coaches will be able to tweak some things with his shot as well. Even without the shot, he could still be a solid player with his ability to run an offense, facilitate, find the open man, push the pace, pressure the rim and play solid D. If the shot comes along, he could *really* emerge as a factor for us.

Lastly, I know we shouldn't put too much stock in random offseason open run footage, but take a look at this. Banton looks very comfortable out there with the ball in his hands, he looks like a legit floor general. Dropping dimes left and right and also scoring on drives to the basket. Again, doing a nice job of knowing when to drive, when to take it to the rim himself and when to dish it..

Watch on YouTube

He's 6'7. Still a big PG....But he's not 6'9

[MeanGeraldGreen]

I’d be shocked if it wasn’t Rob/KP starting together, it’s all about balancing the rotation. That way, you almost always will have a big out there who can hit threes.

[chrisab123]

Sign Warren and Blake. Let things work themselves out from there.

[Hal14]

With Stevens vs. Warren, the question is do you want upside or do you want floor?

Despite being older Warren is the upside play. Prior to getting injured he had a two-three year stretch where he was phenomenal. For the two years prior (100 game sample size) he was a 40%+ shooter from three. He struggled a lot last year but that's somewhat to be expected coming off a year of being out of action. With another season under his belt, if he can get back closer to what he was he could be a massive steal. That's a big "if" though and the injury concerns are a whole topic of their own, but the upside is there potentially if you're willing to pay the minor cost to take the ride.

Stevens on the other hand might not have a high ceiling but he seems like a player with a rock solid floor. His clear limitation is his inability to shoot from range, which is unlikely to change for him, but he's a scrappy defender and a hustle guy. Given what we just lost in Smart, Stevens could be a bargain basement version off the bench. Don't expect a ton out of him, but he'd be another tool for the toolbox.

I'm almost tempted to say give me Stevens and let it be an open competition between him Walsh and Brissett for those defensive wing minutes. With Warren I think you'd run the risk of Joe deferring to TJ because he's the vet with the pedigree when I think it's a toss up as to who has the better season next year between him, Stevens, Walsh and Brissett. It puts me off a bit to think that name brand recognition would potentially get in the way of the best lineup. It was one of the things I was initially worried about with Blake until they unveiled their plan with him. I'm guessing Stevens will come in with less of a chip on his shoulder which might fare better.

Ultimately though with the 14th spot I'd go upside and take Warren. The cost vs. the reward seems too good to pass up even if he ends up just a towel waiver.

Solid breakdown but a couple of points I would add...

I disagree that Stevens is unlikely to become a better shooter. He's actually shown steady improvement each year in the league:
Year 1: 16% from 3
Year 2: 28% from 3
Year 3: 32% from 3

And he also showed stark improvement from 3 during the course of last season:
First 34 games: 27.8% from 3
Last 40 games: 38.1% from 3

I watched some film from a game last December. It looked like he had a little bit of a hitch in his shot. And he was releasing the ball a little bit off-center, off to the left a little bit. I'm guessing he cleaned those things up and that's why he shot the ball so much better later in the season.

And Stevens is just 26, only played 3 NBA seasons so the chances are good that he hasn't yet peaked and is still a guy who's getting better.

Warren on the other hand, I think it's safe to say he peaked in the bubble. Guys don't usually get much better once they turn 30 (he'll be 30 when the season starts) and recently had a serious foot injury that sidelined them for 2 full seasons.

They both shot 32% from 3 last season. But again, Stevens shot 38% over his last 40 games (and 40 games is as many games as Warren played all of last season). Warren on the other hand, shot 24% over his last 21 games last season so he's trending in the other direction.

The 26 yr old is rapidly improving as a shooter. The guy who turns 30 next month is getting worse. And I don't put a ton of weight in Warren's pre-injury numbers. He's obviously a different player now, after suffering a serious foot injury that sidelined him for 2 full seasons.

Lots of guys had flukey shooting in the bubble. Like Smart who had 4 games with 5+ threes in an 8 game span in the playoffs, and Rondo who shot like Reggie Miller in the bubble. Austin Rivers had a 50 point game in the bubble. A lot of flukey things happened and it was 3 yrs ago now..

And Stevens is a better defender, better rebounder, better hustle/energy guy, better cutter, less of a ball stopper.

Warren is a better shot creator but is that what we want on this Celtics team? Do we want another guy who is just looking to get his own points and create his own shots? Another iso guy who doesn't move the ball? I'll take Stevens..

[Hal14]

Does this team really need Banton? He was awful in the summer league. Not a fan of that signing at the moment and I'm not sure what Brad saw in him. Hope he proves me wrong.

He wasn't awful in summer league. He had some moments where he looked a little bit shaky. But he also had a few moments where he really popped.

And he only played in TWO summer league games. That's a tiny sample size. Way too small of a sample size for it to even be worth discussing.

Oh, and the 2 games he played in were our 3rd and 4th games. Which means he was having to play catch up, after sitting out the first couple of games (and also joining the team late so he had less practice time prior to SL than everyone else) compared to the others on the the team who were in rhythm, had 2 games under their belt playing together to build chemistry and then here comes Banton the new guy in game 3, with no chemistry built with these guys yet. Plus the teams we were playing against all had 2-3 games under their belt playing together, while Banton was coming in cold playing in his 1st game.

And on top of that, he was playing with an injured finger (the reason why he sat out the first 2 games) and probably a reason why his jumper was off.

Look, as it stands now, Banton is the 13th man (on a roster that currently has 13 guys) and once we sign another 1 or 2 guys, he'll probably be the 14th man - or maybe even the 15th man. This is like people complaining last season about Justin Jackson being on the team. Like, who cares, it's the last man at the end of the bench. It's not gonna make or break our title chances at all.

Banton though, I would think is pretty good compared to most 13th-15th men out there on a roster right now. He's at least got upside, potential. The potential is being a 6'9" PG. How many of those have there ever been? Magic and Ben Simmons, that's pretty much it. Magic is the best PG of all time. And Simmons was an all-NBA player before he stopped caring about basketball and had some injuries.

For a 6'9" dude, he can handle the ball very well, can get to his spots, is able to get downhill, and does a nice job of seeing the whole floor - even while he's handling the ball and getting to his spots. Makes pretty good decisions in terms of when to drive, when to take it all the way to the rim, when to dish it out, when to shoot. He's not a great defender but he's decent enough defensively, and since he's still just 23 yrs old so can get better (on D and on offense too). And with his length (6'9" with a 6'10.25" wingspan) it helps him to be disruptive defensively and allow the Celtics to put out a very big lineup with Banton at PG.

His shooting is obviously an area he needs to keep working at. But from the film I've seen, his form has improved over the past couple of yrs in Toronto. He just has to keep getting more reps, and perhaps our coaches will be able to tweak some things with his shot as well. Even without the shot, he could still be a solid player with his ability to run an offense, facilitate, find the open man, push the pace, pressure the rim and play solid D. If the shot comes along, he could *really* emerge as a factor for us.

Lastly, I know we shouldn't put too much stock in random offseason open run footage, but take a look at this. Banton looks very comfortable out there with the ball in his hands, he looks like a legit floor general. Dropping dimes left and right and also scoring on drives to the basket. Again, doing a nice job of knowing when to drive, when to take it to the rim himself and when to dish it..

Watch on YouTube

He's 6'7. Still a big PG....But he's not 6'9

Says here 6'9" in shoes. The in shoes measurements are the official ones.

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

[165bows]

Was a big proponent of TJ Warren last June - seemed like the potential scoring upside was too big to pass up on. But I don't think he was that good last year and the team also added Brogdon/KP, plus Hauser, so not as desperate for pure scoring at this point.

I'd be fine with it (since they already have JT/JB, Hauser, Brissett, Walsh) but just as happy with a younger guy with a smidge of development.

[Hal14]

Watch on YouTube

-It speaks volumes that a guy who only scored 8 points in this game was the guy who got the postgame interview. They saw all the little things he did to contribute to winning this game.
-He seems like a humble guy who just works hard and does whatever he can to help his team win.
-He says "we got some dawgs on this team"

Here's Coach Bickerstaff's postgame presser after that game, the OT win over Boston:

Watch on YouTube

-The very first question by a reporter is about Lamar and his impact on this game
-Bickerstaff says "Lamar is a dawg. He's willing to scrap, he's willing to fight. He's not afraid of the moment. Every time we needed an extra possession, he went and got it. I can't say enough about how proud I am of him."

[bigfoot_cryptozoology]

Still need another quality Big for the Playoffs, as it's hard to imagine Porzingis,
Rob and Horford all performing at their optimum then. For the regular season,
they can get by with whomever is healthy of the three and the underrated Kornet,
but it's difficult to see these three being intact when the Post Season rolls around.
I mean, they're not even starting off the season healthy, and that is obviously a big concern.

The Good News part is they have both the players and draft capital to acquire another frontcourt addition.
I thought throughout the past season that they needed a Brogdon of the Frontcourt, and they did achieve
that goal, in all aspects of the phrase, including the troubling injury concerns, with the acquisition of Porzingis.

And this is of course the grandest issue with this team: Being fully functional during the Playoffs. We haven't seen
this during the last two seasons and it has cost them what could have been two Titles...

[Hal14]

Still need another quality Big for the Playoffs, as it's hard to imagine Porzingis,
Rob and Horford all performing at their optimum then. For the regular season,
they can get by with whomever is healthy of the three and the underrated Kornet,
but it's difficult to see these three being intact when the Post Season rolls around.
I mean, they're not even starting off the season healthy, and that is obviously a big concern.

Literally every player on our team is expected to be healthy when the season begins.

Read on Twitter

[MeanGeraldGreen]

One of the main reasons I’d prefer Stevens over Warren is because I want Hauser to get real minutes, and Warren would probably eat into those minutes. Stevens would play more of the Grant role for us, defensively.

[Fencer reregistered]

This article collects good-feelings quotes about Blake and the Celtics, including one new one.

https://www.celticsblog.com/2023/8/23/23841469/blake-griffin-talks-time-boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown-banner-18-championship

“Dude, Boston is unbelievable,” Griffin told the “Fore Play” podcast’s Dan Rappaport. “Living in Boston, playing in Boston was, like, one of the best experiences. And I wasn’t even like [playing major minutes]. The fans are incredible. The team — just having a team that’s so championship-focused, like they do everything [they can to be the best].

One of the best parts, the players on that team are just like such a great group of guys. Everybody’s all different... A guy like Jayson Tatum, who’s a legit superstar and is just so humble. He talks to everybody on the team, talks to the whole staff... he’ll go sit and have a conversation with whoever.”

It also has a link to a highight video of him hitting 5 3s against Philly. That said:
-- On the first 3 of them, Embiid was in deep drop coverage and didn't even try to bother the shot.
-- On the last 2, the closest Sixer was a screened Harden.

[bigfoot_cryptozoology]

Still need another quality Big for the Playoffs, as it's hard to imagine Porzingis,
Rob and Horford all performing at their optimum then. For the regular season,
they can get by with whomever is healthy of the three and the underrated Kornet,
but it's difficult to see these three being intact when the Post Season rolls around.
I mean, they're not even starting off the season healthy, and that is obviously a big concern.

Literally every player on our team is expected to be healthy when the season begins.

Read on Twitter

Hal: Will I dream, Dave?

And you have done it, Hal!
You are actually dreaming.

None of us, and I repeat, none of us can guarantee the veracity of any Celtics injury pronouncement,
because they lie through their teeth, season after season, with their evaluations of players' injuries.

We have no clue at the moment whether Brogdon or Porzingis is actually going to be healthy to start the season.
I mean, it would be great and help the team to get off to a crushing start with their easy early season schedule.
But, after fooling us so many times over the years, if you trust what they have to say, you are just deluding yourself...