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Smart2Nesmith43 wrote:Dogen wrote:Man, Bilal Coulibaly moves into late lotto acc to latest CBS and ESPN mocks:
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2023-nba-mock-draft-scoot-henderson-goes-ahead-of-brandon-miller-at-no-2-lakers-land-elite-sharpshooter/
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/37838983/2023-nba-mock-draft-why-scoot-henderson-play-no-2
I feel far less lonely on my Coulibaly hype train recently
Hal14 wrote:ESPN's latest mock has us taking GG Jackson at 35.
I doubt he falls that far in the draft, but if he does, you take him. #14 player on my big board.
If you just rank the prospects based on upside/ceiling/potential, he's top 10 - maybe even top 5.
There's some risk, because some of his stats (like FG% and assist %) were bad. But when you're picking that late in the draft at 35, the potential reward outweighs that risk by a lot, imo.
return2glory wrote:Hal14 wrote:ESPN's latest mock has us taking GG Jackson at 35.
I doubt he falls that far in the draft, but if he does, you take him. #14 player on my big board.
If you just rank the prospects based on upside/ceiling/potential, he's top 10 - maybe even top 5.
There's some risk, because some of his stats (like FG% and assist %) were bad. But when you're picking that late in the draft at 35, the potential reward outweighs that risk by a lot, imo.
He looks like a taller Jordan Crawford. Nice handles and great step back shot to create separation. But he a a very very low BBIQ guy, and a bad shooter.
If he is 14 on your bog board, you need to change that board.
Hal14 wrote:I'm not taking him at 35. But man, he should absolutely be on the list of possible UDFA targets.
He did work out for the Celtics recently.
Hal14 wrote:return2glory wrote:Hal14 wrote:ESPN's latest mock has us taking GG Jackson at 35.
I doubt he falls that far in the draft, but if he does, you take him. #14 player on my big board.
If you just rank the prospects based on upside/ceiling/potential, he's top 10 - maybe even top 5.
There's some risk, because some of his stats (like FG% and assist %) were bad. But when you're picking that late in the draft at 35, the potential reward outweighs that risk by a lot, imo.
He looks like a taller Jordan Crawford. Nice handles and great step back shot to create separation. But he a a very very low BBIQ guy, and a bad shooter.
If he is 14 on your bog board, you need to change that board.
I need to change my board? lol. So just because your opinion differs than mine, that automatically means that I'm wrong? C'mon now.
He's not a bad shooter. He's actually a good shooter - especially for a 6'9" dude who's only 18. He shot an above average % on catch and shoot 3's. It's just that due to the team he was on and the way South Carolina ran their offense, he had a ton of shots that were self created, off the dribble shots. Turnarounds, fadeaways, step backs - in other words, high degree of difficulty.
On film, you can see some VERY impressive shot making ability. This type of shot making ability, handle and self creation (ability to create his own shot and finish from all 3 levels) from an 18 year old (he was only 17 during the first part of the season) who's 6'9" is something that is VERY rare.
On film, we see him running PnR as the ball handler effectively AND operating as the roll man in the PnR effectively. We see impressive shot making ability and handle. We see him used as a lob target. The last freshman who was 6'9" or taller who could do all of that went #1 in the draft (Paolo). Now, I'm not saying he's as good as Paolo. But Paolo was also a year older than GG on draft night - and Paolo got to play for arguably the GOAT college coach and got to play on a stacked roster. Give GG some real coaching, some actual talent that he can play with, and some more time (to refine his game and mature) and he could easily end up being a top 5 player in this class down the road.
GG is the youngest player in the draft class. turned 18 in December - he should be a senior in HS right now. That must be factored in when looking at his stats and when watching him play. You also have to factor in that he played a brutally tough schedule - the gauntlet known as the SEC, while playing on a terrible team that had no one who could pass him the ball and no one who could take any of the offensive pressure off him so GG had to do everything himself, while getting double teamed all the time - not to mention was 5+ years younger than a lot of the guys he was going against.
If GG didn't reclassify, he would have been a top 5 pick in the 2024 draft - possibly even the #1 pick.
return2glory wrote:He is really good at creating his shot. I mentioned that earlier.
He is nothing close to a good shooter, so that's just your opinion.
He shot 38% from the field, which is terrible. He shot 32% from 3, decent for a freshman and 68% from the line. That's good if you're a center. He is a terrible play maker. He had 27 assists to 83 TOs. That's beyond Jaylen Brown level. Very low BBIQ.
He was bad last season and so was the team he was on.
I would look at him in the 20's based on potential due to his age and shot creating ability. Based on efficiency and very low BBIQ, he is no where near a top prospect.
Top 5 pick in 2024 draft? Based on what?
return2glory wrote:Hal14 wrote:return2glory wrote:
He looks like a taller Jordan Crawford. Nice handles and great step back shot to create separation. But he a a very very low BBIQ guy, and a bad shooter.
If he is 14 on your bog board, you need to change that board.
I need to change my board? lol. So just because your opinion differs than mine, that automatically means that I'm wrong? C'mon now.
He's not a bad shooter. He's actually a good shooter - especially for a 6'9" dude who's only 18. He shot an above average % on catch and shoot 3's. It's just that due to the team he was on and the way South Carolina ran their offense, he had a ton of shots that were self created, off the dribble shots. Turnarounds, fadeaways, step backs - in other words, high degree of difficulty.
On film, you can see some VERY impressive shot making ability. This type of shot making ability, handle and self creation (ability to create his own shot and finish from all 3 levels) from an 18 year old (he was only 17 during the first part of the season) who's 6'9" is something that is VERY rare.
On film, we see him running PnR as the ball handler effectively AND operating as the roll man in the PnR effectively. We see impressive shot making ability and handle. We see him used as a lob target. The last freshman who was 6'9" or taller who could do all of that went #1 in the draft (Paolo). Now, I'm not saying he's as good as Paolo. But Paolo was also a year older than GG on draft night - and Paolo got to play for arguably the GOAT college coach and got to play on a stacked roster. Give GG some real coaching, some actual talent that he can play with, and some more time (to refine his game and mature) and he could easily end up being a top 5 player in this class down the road.
GG is the youngest player in the draft class. turned 18 in December - he should be a senior in HS right now. That must be factored in when looking at his stats and when watching him play. You also have to factor in that he played a brutally tough schedule - the gauntlet known as the SEC, while playing on a terrible team that had no one who could pass him the ball and no one who could take any of the offensive pressure off him so GG had to do everything himself, while getting double teamed all the time - not to mention was 5+ years younger than a lot of the guys he was going against.
If GG didn't reclassify, he would have been a top 5 pick in the 2024 draft - possibly even the #1 pick.
He is really good at creating his shot. I mentioned that earlier.
He is nothing close to a good shooter, so that's just your opinion.
He shot 38% from the field, which is terrible. He shot 32% from 3, decent for a freshman and 68% from the line. That's good if you're a center. He is a terrible play maker. He had 27 assists to 83 TOs. That's beyond Jaylen Brown level. Very low BBIQ.
He was bad last season and so was the team he was on.
I would look at him in the 20's based on potential due to his age and shot creating ability. Based on efficiency and very low BBIQ, he is no where near a top prospect.
Top 5 pick in 2024 draft? Based on what?
Hal14 wrote:return2glory wrote:Hal14 wrote:I need to change my board? lol. So just because your opinion differs than mine, that automatically means that I'm wrong? C'mon now.
He's not a bad shooter. He's actually a good shooter - especially for a 6'9" dude who's only 18. He shot an above average % on catch and shoot 3's. It's just that due to the team he was on and the way South Carolina ran their offense, he had a ton of shots that were self created, off the dribble shots. Turnarounds, fadeaways, step backs - in other words, high degree of difficulty.
On film, you can see some VERY impressive shot making ability. This type of shot making ability, handle and self creation (ability to create his own shot and finish from all 3 levels) from an 18 year old (he was only 17 during the first part of the season) who's 6'9" is something that is VERY rare.
On film, we see him running PnR as the ball handler effectively AND operating as the roll man in the PnR effectively. We see impressive shot making ability and handle. We see him used as a lob target. The last freshman who was 6'9" or taller who could do all of that went #1 in the draft (Paolo). Now, I'm not saying he's as good as Paolo. But Paolo was also a year older than GG on draft night - and Paolo got to play for arguably the GOAT college coach and got to play on a stacked roster. Give GG some real coaching, some actual talent that he can play with, and some more time (to refine his game and mature) and he could easily end up being a top 5 player in this class down the road.
GG is the youngest player in the draft class. turned 18 in December - he should be a senior in HS right now. That must be factored in when looking at his stats and when watching him play. You also have to factor in that he played a brutally tough schedule - the gauntlet known as the SEC, while playing on a terrible team that had no one who could pass him the ball and no one who could take any of the offensive pressure off him so GG had to do everything himself, while getting double teamed all the time - not to mention was 5+ years younger than a lot of the guys he was going against.
If GG didn't reclassify, he would have been a top 5 pick in the 2024 draft - possibly even the #1 pick.
He is really good at creating his shot. I mentioned that earlier.
He is nothing close to a good shooter, so that's just your opinion.
He shot 38% from the field, which is terrible. He shot 32% from 3, decent for a freshman and 68% from the line. That's good if you're a center. He is a terrible play maker. He had 27 assists to 83 TOs. That's beyond Jaylen Brown level. Very low BBIQ.
He was bad last season and so was the team he was on.
I would look at him in the 20's based on potential due to his age and shot creating ability. Based on efficiency and very low BBIQ, he is no where near a top prospect.
Top 5 pick in 2024 draft? Based on what?
Again, he's an above average catch and shoot guy (33.6% which is a very good number for a 6'9" freshman playing in the SEC) as it says in this video at 5:20
You quoting his FG% (who even uses FG% anymore? This is 2023) and his raw 3 pt % is irrelevant because so many of his threes were contested and/or off the dribble and/or turnaround shots, fadeaways, etc. just because of the team he played on - they ran a terrible offense, he had bad teammates, no one to pass him the ball or create good looks for GG, he faced double teams.
And he entered college a year early!
Before he reclassified to enter college this year, he was the #1 ranked HS player in the 2023 HS class (guys who would have been drafted in 2024)
https://www.on3.com/teams/kentucky-wildcats/news/where-kentuckys-basketball-targets-sit-in-on3s-new-2023-rankings/
Of course the assist to turnover numbers were bad. He was facing extremely tough competition, with no help from his teammates, was getting double teamed, had to do everything himself, no help from his teammates - and entered college a year early! Throw those numbers out the window. Not to mention the guy is a PF / Small Ball 5, so assist to turnover ratio isn't a very relevant stat for that type of player. Like, we're not talking about a PG here.
When GG was playing in AAU, or on team USA at the U18 FIBA tournament last summer, when he had actual talent on his team, he had good shot selection and was used more as a roll man / lob catcher / screener who would sometimes spot up from 3, sometimes take his man off the bounce, he's make some good passes - just had good versatility. He's also a good cutter.
Makes a nice pass here at :47, another good pass at 3:12
High IQ play here:
?s=20
Great pass here. How many 6'9" freshmen are doing this kind of stuff out of the PnR? Against the #2 ranked team in the country!
?s=20
return2glory wrote:Hal14 wrote:return2glory wrote:
He is really good at creating his shot. I mentioned that earlier.
He is nothing close to a good shooter, so that's just your opinion.
He shot 38% from the field, which is terrible. He shot 32% from 3, decent for a freshman and 68% from the line. That's good if you're a center. He is a terrible play maker. He had 27 assists to 83 TOs. That's beyond Jaylen Brown level. Very low BBIQ.
He was bad last season and so was the team he was on.
I would look at him in the 20's based on potential due to his age and shot creating ability. Based on efficiency and very low BBIQ, he is no where near a top prospect.
Top 5 pick in 2024 draft? Based on what?
Again, he's an above average catch and shoot guy (33.6% which is a very good number for a 6'9" freshman playing in the SEC) as it says in this video at 5:20
You quoting his FG% (who even uses FG% anymore? This is 2023) and his raw 3 pt % is irrelevant because so many of his threes were contested and/or off the dribble and/or turnaround shots, fadeaways, etc. just because of the team he played on - they ran a terrible offense, he had bad teammates, no one to pass him the ball or create good looks for GG, he faced double teams.
And he entered college a year early!
Before he reclassified to enter college this year, he was the #1 ranked HS player in the 2023 HS class (guys who would have been drafted in 2024)
https://www.on3.com/teams/kentucky-wildcats/news/where-kentuckys-basketball-targets-sit-in-on3s-new-2023-rankings/
Of course the assist to turnover numbers were bad. He was facing extremely tough competition, with no help from his teammates, was getting double teamed, had to do everything himself, no help from his teammates - and entered college a year early! Throw those numbers out the window. Not to mention the guy is a PF / Small Ball 5, so assist to turnover ratio isn't a very relevant stat for that type of player. Like, we're not talking about a PG here.
When GG was playing in AAU, or on team USA at the U18 FIBA tournament last summer, when he had actual talent on his team, he had good shot selection and was used more as a roll man / lob catcher / screener who would sometimes spot up from 3, sometimes take his man off the bounce, he's make some good passes - just had good versatility. He's also a good cutter.
Makes a nice pass here at :47, another good pass at 3:12
High IQ play here:
?s=20
Great pass here. How many 6'9" freshmen are doing this kind of stuff out of the PnR? Against the #2 ranked team in the country!
?s=20
You can got stop. FG% tells you overall how well you shot or don't shot. Anything below 40% is terrible.
Stop watching videos and highlights and think you are a draft expert. Draft experts don't know half the time what they are talking about. Last season you were hyping up Jules Bernard for example. I kept saying he is decent but not that good. I live in the West Coast, so I got to see UCLA play a lot and he was a decent college player, nothing to get excited about.
You hype up about 50 players every upcoming draft. I appreciate your enthusiasm but remember not to go overboard. Watching videos on players is fun but it's only that.
Smart2Nesmith43 wrote:return2glory wrote:He is really good at creating his shot. I mentioned that earlier.
He is nothing close to a good shooter, so that's just your opinion.
He shot 38% from the field, which is terrible. He shot 32% from 3, decent for a freshman and 68% from the line. That's good if you're a center. He is a terrible play maker. He had 27 assists to 83 TOs. That's beyond Jaylen Brown level. Very low BBIQ.
He was bad last season and so was the team he was on.
I would look at him in the 20's based on potential due to his age and shot creating ability. Based on efficiency and very low BBIQ, he is no where near a top prospect.
Top 5 pick in 2024 draft? Based on what?
I can't recall a prospect ever having a 1:3 assist to turnover ratio. It's actually impressive to be that bad at team basketball. To be that terrible there has to be something fundamentally flawed with the way he sees and reads the floor. I don't think it's unfixable.
For GG Jackson to leverage his creation ability he needs to become a star otherwise he won't be asked to create. The thing is that all the second rounders that turn out to be stars, the Draymonds, Butlers, Ginobilis, Gasols, Jokics, Middletons... are all super smart basketball players. It's not a coincidence. Teams aren't going to invest minutes and shots in second round guys until they prove they deserve it so they have to be smart enough to figure out a way to overcome whatever weakness made them slide to the second round largely on their own.
If GG Jackson isn't a star then his self creation ability doesn't matter and all you are left with is a guy that's bad at everything else so I'm not sure why exactly I'm supposed to see a NBA player there.
Celts17Pride wrote:Julian Strawther 6'6" - 6'7" wing is my binky of the day. Again, another shooter. 41% three point shooter with size.
Dariq Whitehead, Ben Sheppard too.
Give me shooters!
Hal14 wrote:I'm not taking him at 35. But man, he should absolutely be on the list of possible UDFA targets.
He did work out for the Celtics recently.
Smart2Nesmith43 wrote:return2glory wrote:He is really good at creating his shot. I mentioned that earlier.
He is nothing close to a good shooter, so that's just your opinion.
He shot 38% from the field, which is terrible. He shot 32% from 3, decent for a freshman and 68% from the line. That's good if you're a center. He is a terrible play maker. He had 27 assists to 83 TOs. That's beyond Jaylen Brown level. Very low BBIQ.
He was bad last season and so was the team he was on.
I would look at him in the 20's based on potential due to his age and shot creating ability. Based on efficiency and very low BBIQ, he is no where near a top prospect.
Top 5 pick in 2024 draft? Based on what?
I can't recall a prospect ever having a 1:3 assist to turnover ratio. It's actually impressive to be that bad at team basketball. To be that terrible there has to be something fundamentally flawed with the way he sees and reads the floor. I don't think it's unfixable.
For GG Jackson to leverage his creation ability he needs to become a star otherwise he won't be asked to create. The thing is that all the second rounders that turn out to be stars, the Draymonds, Butlers, Ginobilis, Gasols, Jokics, Middletons... are all super smart basketball players. It's not a coincidence. Teams aren't going to invest minutes and shots in second round guys until they prove they deserve it so they have to be smart enough to figure out a way to overcome whatever weakness made them slide to the second round largely on their own.
If GG Jackson isn't a star then his self creation ability doesn't matter and all you are left with is a guy that's bad at everything else so I'm not sure why exactly I'm supposed to see a NBA player there.
GoGreen wrote:Got a lot of guys we've worked out. Take your pick!
https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/lists/2023-nba-draft-workout-tracker-prospects/
Hal14 wrote:I also can't recall a prospect who entered college a year early and was the only good player on his team, competing in a conference as good as the SEC..who had to create his own offense and got double teamed all the time. Just throwing stats like that out there is meaningless, without looking at the context behind the stats.
Not to mention, he's a PF / small ball 5 so stats like assist to turnover ration don't matter as much. It's not like we're talking about a PG here.
GG could end up being a star. In terms of upside/ceiling, he's a top 5 or 6 prospect in this draft.
And even if he isn't a star, he is still a good off-ball player - above average on catch and shoot 3's, good cutter, can set screens, operate as the roll man, good lob target, can hit shots out of pick n pop, etc. And even if he isn't a star, his ability to create his own shot would still come in handy. in the modern NBA, versatility is the name of the game. Guys who can only hit open catch and shoot 3's are not as valuable. Guys who can can hit spot up 3's AND create their own shot are more valuable. Christian Braun didn't shoot much from 3 but was effective picking his spots here and there attacking off the dribble for Denver. Duncan Robinson added additional value for Miami in the playoffs by attacking off the dribble, as did Caleb Martin. Sam Hauser is a great shooter but the value he provides to the celtics is limited by the fact that shooting off the catch is all he can do on offense - he would be much more valuable if he could also put the ball on the floor, create his own shot sometimes (like GG can), if we could throw lobs to him (like you can with GG) if he could operate as either the PnR ball handler or the PnR roll man (GG can do both which adds even more versatility for him).
GG also projects as a better defender than Hauser too.
Hal14 wrote:return2glory wrote:Hal14 wrote:Again, he's an above average catch and shoot guy (33.6% which is a very good number for a 6'9" freshman playing in the SEC) as it says in this video at 5:20
You quoting his FG% (who even uses FG% anymore? This is 2023) and his raw 3 pt % is irrelevant because so many of his threes were contested and/or off the dribble and/or turnaround shots, fadeaways, etc. just because of the team he played on - they ran a terrible offense, he had bad teammates, no one to pass him the ball or create good looks for GG, he faced double teams.
And he entered college a year early!
Before he reclassified to enter college this year, he was the #1 ranked HS player in the 2023 HS class (guys who would have been drafted in 2024)
https://www.on3.com/teams/kentucky-wildcats/news/where-kentuckys-basketball-targets-sit-in-on3s-new-2023-rankings/
Of course the assist to turnover numbers were bad. He was facing extremely tough competition, with no help from his teammates, was getting double teamed, had to do everything himself, no help from his teammates - and entered college a year early! Throw those numbers out the window. Not to mention the guy is a PF / Small Ball 5, so assist to turnover ratio isn't a very relevant stat for that type of player. Like, we're not talking about a PG here.
When GG was playing in AAU, or on team USA at the U18 FIBA tournament last summer, when he had actual talent on his team, he had good shot selection and was used more as a roll man / lob catcher / screener who would sometimes spot up from 3, sometimes take his man off the bounce, he's make some good passes - just had good versatility. He's also a good cutter.
Makes a nice pass here at :47, another good pass at 3:12
High IQ play here:
?s=20
Great pass here. How many 6'9" freshmen are doing this kind of stuff out of the PnR? Against the #2 ranked team in the country!
?s=20
You can got stop. FG% tells you overall how well you shot or don't shot. Anything below 40% is terrible.
Stop watching videos and highlights and think you are a draft expert. Draft experts don't know half the time what they are talking about. Last season you were hyping up Jules Bernard for example. I kept saying he is decent but not that good. I live in the West Coast, so I got to see UCLA play a lot and he was a decent college player, nothing to get excited about.
You hype up about 50 players every upcoming draft. I appreciate your enthusiasm but remember not to go overboard. Watching videos on players is fun but it's only that.
FG% does not tell you how well someone shoots. By that logic, I suppose you think that Robert Williams is the best shooter in the NBA?
Nothing wrong with actually watching film of the prospects play and understanding the context behind their stats.
I never called my self an expert. I'm just talking basketball. If you don't like it, then ignore my posts. Click the foe button. I value everyone's opinion on here. And could care less if you live on the west coast - get off your high horse.
There's plenty of players I'm not as high on. I made a detailed post before about why I'm not as high on Andre Jackson Jr for the Celtics. I'm not as high on Sanogo and Jordan Miller as you are, but I didn't go on a rant talking sh&t to you about why you ranked those guys too high - I didn't say "you need to change your board".
I'm not as high on Drew Peterson as some people on here. Oscar Tshiebwe and Drew Timme have been brought up in here and I explained why I'm not as high on them.
When you have the 35th pick (and you don't know yet who the first 34 picks will be) there's a lot of possibilities. There's at least 20-30 guys you could potentially pick. And that list changes throughout the 6 or so months leading up to the draft. Plus you grab an UDFA and there's another 20 or so guys we could potentially sign for that spot. So there's a lot of guys we could possibly discuss. Sorry if you don't like that? It would be pretty boring if we just talked about the same 2 or 3 guys over and over the whole time.
I'll post what I want.
Smart2Nesmith43 wrote:Hal14 wrote:I also can't recall a prospect who entered college a year early and was the only good player on his team, competing in a conference as good as the SEC..who had to create his own offense and got double teamed all the time. Just throwing stats like that out there is meaningless, without looking at the context behind the stats.
Not to mention, he's a PF / small ball 5 so stats like assist to turnover ration don't matter as much. It's not like we're talking about a PG here.
GG could end up being a star. In terms of upside/ceiling, he's a top 5 or 6 prospect in this draft.
And even if he isn't a star, he is still a good off-ball player - above average on catch and shoot 3's, good cutter, can set screens, operate as the roll man, good lob target, can hit shots out of pick n pop, etc. And even if he isn't a star, his ability to create his own shot would still come in handy. in the modern NBA, versatility is the name of the game. Guys who can only hit open catch and shoot 3's are not as valuable. Guys who can can hit spot up 3's AND create their own shot are more valuable. Christian Braun didn't shoot much from 3 but was effective picking his spots here and there attacking off the dribble for Denver. Duncan Robinson added additional value for Miami in the playoffs by attacking off the dribble, as did Caleb Martin. Sam Hauser is a great shooter but the value he provides to the celtics is limited by the fact that shooting off the catch is all he can do on offense - he would be much more valuable if he could also put the ball on the floor, create his own shot sometimes (like GG can), if we could throw lobs to him (like you can with GG) if he could operate as either the PnR ball handler or the PnR roll man (GG can do both which adds even more versatility for him).
GG also projects as a better defender than Hauser too.
Fine let's throw out the turnovers and wave that away on account of his age and being overwhelmed by D1 defenses. The guy had a 30.8% usage and a 6.6% assist percentage. There's no context where that isn't complete and utter loser ball. Just to frame how terrible that is, out of the 14 NBA players to top 30% usage this season, there's only one that didn't have at least a 20% assist percentage (yes it's JB and he was at 16.3% so still like two and a half times better than GG).
The last four teams to make the finals: Denver (Jokic), Miami (Adebayo), Golden State (Draymond) and Boston (Horford) are arguably the four teams that put the most emphasis on having bigs that can pass. Look at how getting Sabonis transformed the Kings. Playmaking out of your bigs has arguably never been more valuable. So yeah it matters that he's a ball hog that doesn't understand winning basketball even at his position.