Trade/Free Agency Thread 2023-24, part 10 and Counting . . .

[shackles10]

My take on the current free agents mentioned by Celtics or getting a lot of mention on this board.
TJ Warren:
I'm concerned about if he is healthy, but if he is, I think he would be the best scorer off our bench and I would feel more comfortable giving more rest to Tatum and Brown if he gets a spot.
Lamar Stevens:
Not as much of a scorer as Warren, but better defensively. After moving on from Smart and Grant, we could use a bigger defensive stopper, and Stevens would seem to fill that need (in addition to Brissett) Stevens being 6'8 verses Smart at 6'4 and Grant 6'6 could be a difference maker.
Glen Robinson III:
Been out of the NBA for 3 years, don't know what his health is. I think we have better options available.
Louis King:
Pretty good showing in G-league, but will that transfer to the NBA? He has been around too long for a 2-way, so that option is not available. As with Robinson, I believe better options are available.
DJ Steward:
He is a possibly an option for a 2-way only. Good scorer, but at 6'2, he is not a passer / point guard.
Usman Garuba:
I think Garba on a 2-way would be great, but not as a roster spot.
Blake Griffin:
If he wants a roster spot, it is his.

With all this, my order of preference:
14th roster spot - Warren or Stevens. I would be fine with either depending on Warren's health.
15th roster spot - Griffin or another big not mentioned yet.
3rd 2-way - Garuba

TJ Warren seems like the Best Option. -- Boy, do we have a Rag-Tag Fleet of Injured Misfits?
I'd like Brad Stevens to bring some of these guys to Camp, iff poss.

Get some kinda competition going for Training Camp.
We have several spots left, on the 21-Man Offseason Roster.

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I wish this didn't give me as many "Imma make both" vibes as it does LOL

[Bad-Thoma]

Can't wait for Brogdon, Griffin, Warren, R Williams and Porzingis all to be unavailable to play by Christmas. Banner18!

[MeanGeraldGreen]

Can't wait for Brogdon, Griffin, Warren, R Williams and Porzingis all to be unavailable to play by Christmas. Banner18!

This is silly and over the top. All of the top teams have multiple guys with injury concerns lol. At least our best player is super durable, and to a lesser extent, same for Jaylen.

[Hal14]

Do we need to start a GoFundMe page to get Garuba signed? The guy is a good deal and is Rob insurance. Seems a versatile defender that can switch quickly is right in the Celtics wheelhouse. Or was.

Garuba and Lamar Stevens are option 1 and 2 on my list. Wondering if Brad has something bigger in the works since neither open spot is filled yet.

Can't have both Griffin and Garuba. Celtics seem intent on bringing back Griffin.

I'm not so sure if they are intent on bringing back Blake. If that's the plan, fine. Maybe Blake is still shopping around? Why haven't they already re-signed him?

Personally, I'd rather have Garuba at this point. Blake was a great presence by all accounts, but mainly on the bench and in the locker room. There is a bigger need for athleticism, health and youth in the frontcourt. Garuba is certainly more raw, but he can close out coverage in a way the Griffin can only reminisce about.

I can see both sides on this. I think you can debate it either way.

The case for Blake:
-We need proven vets. Not young development projects
-Blake already knows our system, he already has chemistry built up on the court and off.
-We already know he's a decent fit on the court and a great fit off the court with this team. Garuba is an unknown wildcard
-Garuba sometimes plays skittish, like a deer in the headlights. Kind of like how Aaron Nesmith would play, how he'd play so hard and go 100MPH out there which was good when he made nice hustle plays and stuff but that wild style of play also got him in trouble sometimes, like when he would commit dumb fouls on jump shooters or not slow down enough and then brick an open 3.
-On offense, Garuba will sometimes clog up the lane, just camp out near the basket which hurts the team's spacing - rather than staying out on the perimeter to either set high screens, pass to cutters, run DHO, spot up for open 3's, etc. Griffin does a better job of this. It was something Vonleh had issues with too when he was in Boston. Garuba does set quite a few high screens which is good. But he still needs to work on now camping out in the paint so much and needs to get out on the perimeter more and don't be shy about taking 3's - his 3pt % is good..

The case for Garuba:
-Better than Blake in terms of being able to get up and down the floor faster. Garuba is really good at sprinting the floor in transition - often beating the opposing big down the floor for easy layups. Griffin's days of doing this are done. Garuba can also get back quicker on transition defense.
-The last 2 bullet points in the "case for Blake section" are both things Garuba can improve on with more reps and as he continues to develop. He's just 21 yrs old
-Garuba is quicker defensively than Blake when it comes to defending out on the perimeter vs guards/wings
-Garuba is a better rebounder than Blake
-Garuba is a better shot blocker than Blake
-Griffin is probably all done after this season and will retire. Or, if he doesn't retire, he won't be playable anymore. So Garuba gives us more long term potential and good upside to be a guy who could possible help us at the PF/C positions for the next 3-4 years, maybe more...while at the same time, giving us just as much value as Griffin this season
-Blake doesn't have enough gas left in the tank. Let's get Garuba with those young legs - he can handle more games and more mins if need be - and giving Garuba more playing time will help to accelerate his development.

I lean a little bit towards the Griffin side. But I'd be happy with either.

[Hal14]

Can't wait for Brogdon, Griffin, Warren, R Williams and Porzingis all to be unavailable to play by Christmas. Banner18!

This is silly and over the top. All of the top teams have multiple guys with injury concerns lol. At least our best player is super durable, and to a lesser extent, same for Jaylen.

Agreed.

Look at the Nuggets. They had Murray coming off a torn ACL and MPJ who was made of glass prior to last season and they won the title.

Warriors in 2022? They had Steph and Klay who both missed like 2 seasons in a row with injuries prior to that season - then they won the title.

Bucks in 2021? Divencenzo suffered a season ending injury during the 20-21 season so he missed the entire playoffs. Brook Lopez previously suffered the same Plantar Fasciitis injury that Porzingis has now..

Lakers in 2020? They had one of the most injury prone players in the league, AD..plus LeBron who missed half the previous season w/ injuries and was 35 yrs old during the 2020 playoffs..

Hell, we just lost in the ECF to a Heat team that had Herro and Oladipo both injured for the whole series..

[threrf23]

I like TJ Warren as a risk/reward play, as a guy who was maybe about to come into his own before a knee injury and now may finally be fully recovered. He's a guy who had all-star caliber upside on the offensive end not long ago, and while I am inclined to say he does not fill a need for us, he could emerge as a strong inside scorer and we have use for that. He turns 30 next month and posted a career best A/TO ratio last season.

I am not sure why Lamar Stevens is even in the conversation for us. He is not a good shooter, scoring efficiency inside has been a weakness going back to his college days, and even if he could somehow emerge as a strong defensive stopper, it wouldn't even help us much because wing/combo forward defense is already a strength of ours. In the NBA on/off court metrics have not spoken well of his impact, and in college by the stats he looks like a poor man's Zach Randolph, took lots of shots inside the arc but couldn't even shoot 50% inside the arc. When a short PG can't shoot 50% inside the arc for four straight years in college it usually by itself indicates they have no future in the NBA, when a combo forward with an NBA body can't do it it's a bigger concern.

Garuba I would love to take a flier on. He just turned 21 in March and is a guy who put up solid defensive stats in Europe below the age of 18. I don't care about anything more than that.

Blake should already have a roster spot, if he wants one. I don't even care if he plays.

[Dogen]

Can't have both Griffin and Garuba. Celtics seem intent on bringing back Griffin.

I'm not so sure if they are intent on bringing back Blake. If that's the plan, fine. Maybe Blake is still shopping around? Why haven't they already re-signed him?

Personally, I'd rather have Garuba at this point. Blake was a great presence by all accounts, but mainly on the bench and in the locker room. There is a bigger need for athleticism, health and youth in the frontcourt. Garuba is certainly more raw, but he can close out coverage in a way the Griffin can only reminisce about.

I can see both sides on this. I think you can debate it either way.

The case for Blake:
-We need proven vets. Not young development projects
-Blake already knows our system, he already has chemistry built up on the court and off.
-We already know he's a decent fit on the court and a great fit off the court with this team. Garuba is an unknown wildcard
-Garuba sometimes plays skittish, like a deer in the headlights. Kind of like how Aaron Nesmith would play, how he'd play so hard and go 100MPH out there which was good when he made nice hustle plays and stuff but that wild style of play also got him in trouble sometimes, like when he would commit dumb fouls on jump shooters or not slow down enough and then brick an open 3.
-On offense, Garuba will sometimes clog up the lane, just camp out near the basket which hurts the team's spacing - rather than staying out on the perimeter to either set high screens, pass to cutters, run DHO, spot up for open 3's, etc. Griffin does a better job of this. It was something Vonleh had issues with too when he was in Boston

The case for Garuba:
-Better than Blake in terms of being able to get up and down the floor faster. Garuba is really good at sprinting the floor in transition - often beating the opposing big down the floor for easy layup. Griffin's days of doing this are done. Garuba can also get back quicker on transition defense.
-The last 2 bullet points in the "case for Blake section" are both things Garuba can improve on with more reps and as he continues to develop. He's just 21 yrs old
-Garuba is quicker defensively than Blake when it comes to defending out on the perimeter vs guards/wings
-Garuba is a better rebounder than Blake
-Garuba is a better shot blocker than Blake
-Griffin is probably all done after this season and will retire. Or, if he doesn't retire, he won't be playable anymore. So Garuba gives us more long term potential and good upside to be a guy who could possible help us at the PF/C positions for the next 3-4 years, maybe more...while at the same time, giving us just as much value as Griffin this season

Yeah, those are great points. I recognize that you watch a lot of "film" of players, and from my limited time looking at Garuba... he is certainly still developing, but the potential is there.

However, to the point about needing proven vets, I'm not sure how that works out in FA market. At this juncture, the team has plenty of vets, including the Jays since, although they are still young, they have a ton of playoff experience.

For a team that has an established core of 7-8 players, and most of the Do Re Mi going to 3 or 4 of them, the team needs to fill out the roster with solid rookie contracts (Walsh?), bargain bin vets (Griffin), and young available projects who are needing the right conditions to fulfill their potential (Garuba).

In my estimation neither Griffin nor Garuba will likely see much court time when the games start to really count. If, say, Porzingis or Williams is out for any extended period of playoffs, the team could be in trouble. I doubt any big available is going to remedy that.

But during the regular season, I do hope that Joe (YOU LISTENING JOE?!?) will have the confidence to play deeper into the bench, and give the starters more rest, so they are not too beat up come playoffs. For those regular season spots, a third year player like Destiny Usman Garuba can provide some energy off the bench, and the team can bring him along without depending on him. Even let him work out his deer in the headlights during blow outs (assuming we get some of those!)

Basically, I lean toward Garuba's upside over Griffin's experience since Griffin's experience has not translated to actually time on the court.

Now, maybe Blake would have a bigger role this year? Hard to say, but he has been on gradual decline and is another year older. It would be a great story if he had that Bill Walton role and ends up doused in champagne next June, but I'd rather give the opportunity to a guy that can turn the corner and be the diamond in the rough we're looking for.

[Hal14]

I like TJ Warren as a risk/reward play, as a guy who was maybe about to come into his own before a knee injury and now may finally be fully recovered. He's a guy who had all-star caliber upside on the offensive end not long ago, and while I am inclined to say he does not fill a need for us, he could emerge as a strong inside scorer and we have use for that. He turns 30 next month

Not long ago? It was 3 years ago. Since then, he missed two entire seasons with a serious foot injury and then last season he played meh for Brooklyn, then got traded to Phoenix where Josh Okogie got more minutes than him. Warren's performance in the bubble was a lifetime ago at this point.

I am not sure why Lamar Stevens is even in the conversation for us.

If you take a look at the last few pages of this thread, that should help to clear things up for ya

Stevens is not a good shooter

His shooting is getting better and better.

Year 1: 16% from 3
Year 2: 28%
Year 3: 32%

22-23 season
Last 39 games: 35.4% from 3
Last 21 games: 37.5% from 3

Stevens and Warren both shot 32% from 3 last season. But one guy went from shooting 40% from 3 to then miss 2 straight seasons with a foot injury, comes back and shoots 32% from 3, will be 30 when this season starts (past his prime, at an age where players typically decline) and also shot 24% over his last 21 games and 14% from 3 during the 2023 playoffs so he's clearly trending downward (Warren) whereas the the other guy has improved his 3 pt % in each of the past 3 yrs (as seen above) and shot 38% from 3 over his last 21 games and is still only 26 yrs old and is a late bloomer who didn't get to the NBA till age 23 so he's clearly on an upward trajectory (Stevens).

Here he is this summer - putting in work on his shooting with his trainer.

Read on Twitter

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More footage of Stevens draining jumper after jumper during offseason workouts:

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Between those 3 vids, he makes 35/37 (94.6%) from 3.

Stevens' scoring efficiency inside has been a weakness going back to his college days, When a short PG can't shoot 50% inside the arc for four straight years in college it usually by itself indicates they have no future in the NBA, when a combo forward with an NBA body can't do it it's a bigger concern.

I am not sure why you are going on about college stats for a guy who has played 3 full seasons in the NBA. They have basically zero relevance.

But since you brought it up, here's some other guys who shot under 50% from 2 for an entire college season. I suppose none of them have a future in the NBA?

Brook Lopez
Brandon Miller (the #2 pick in this year's draft)
Grant Williams
Harrison Barnes
Shae Gilgeous-Alexander
Draymond Green
Kawhi Leonard
Jordan Clarkson
Malcolm Brogdon
Kyle Anderson

It's also disingenuous to just rattle off 2 PT% numbers without context. The context being, Stevens was the go-to scorer on his team. He had seasons in college averaging 15, 18 and 20 PPG. When you're a wing putting up those type of numbers in college, you're the #1 option and you're getting the opponent's best defender on you, you're having the opposing team gameplan to try and stop you so that's naturally going to bring the efficiency down a bit.

If he was putting up those types of scoring numbers AND with better efficiency, he'd be a more prolific scorer in the NBA. But he's not a profile scorer in the NBA. Nobody said he is. The Celtics don't need him to be. We have plenty of scorers on this team. We just need him to be a really good, switchable defender..keep the ball moving on offense, grab some boards, bring hustle, bring energy, make winning plays, cut to the basket, and occasionally attack closeouts and hit open 3's. He's already proven he can do all of those things at the NBA level and is still getting better at age 26.

Not to mention, clearly (since he had to play 4 college seasons before getting into the NBA, has only played 3 NBA seasons at age 26 and is just *now* becoming a respectable shooter) he's a late bloomer. Even more reason to throw the college stats out the window.

Last point on the college stuff. I always think it's best to not just look at the stats. We must look at both the stats AND the eye test. Here's some of his college film. I don't know about you, but it looks pretty good, imo.

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When I watch that college video of Lamar, I think to myself, "gee, well no wonder he didn't have a jumper back then. Why bother working on your jumper when you can get 20 PPG on dunks?"

Not to mention, back then (2016-2020 were his college yrs) teams (especially college teams) weren't shooting as many 3's as they do today, so players weren't working on them as much. Forwards/centers who are 230+ lbs definitely weren't working on jumpers as much back then - especially dudes who were still in college.

He's clearly been working on his 3 ball now, though (see above)..

even if Stevens could somehow emerge as a strong defensive stopper, it wouldn't even help us much because wing/combo forward defense is already a strength of ours.

First off, Stevens already *has* emerged as a strong defensive stopper. I'm not gonna bother re-posting but if you look over the past few pages in this thread, I've shared videos/documentation that shows him locking up Paul George, Jalen Brunson, Lauri Markannen, Luka Doncic and Giannis.

And as far as this already being a strength of ours, I respectfully disagree. Defensive consistency was one of (possibly even the biggest) issue our team had last season - especially in the playoffs.

Our perimeter defense could certainly use some work. Often times last season we were late closing out on shooters. Slow to rotate, not communicating as well as we could defensively. We lost our 3x 1st team all-NBA defender (Smart) and we also lost a guy who (for most of his tenure in Boston) was a good, versatile defender (Grant).

With Smart gone, that's more mins for Pritchard who is not a good defender - his lack of size makes it tough for him to bother outside shots when contesting them. Brogdon had issues defensively, he's got a little bit of foot speed issues to move around out there defensively and also a little bit undersized to contest shooters. Hauser is average at best defensively and has physical limitations (quickness, athleticism) that prevent him from being quick enough to close out on shooters and rotate quick enough. JB is not a good help defender - he gets caught ball watching a lot and that's been an issue for his whole career.

Walsh has potential to be a really good perimeter defender but we shouldn't be relying on him (a 19 yr old who's played 0 NBA games and was a 2nd round pick). Anything we get from him this season is a bonus. Walsh also did struggle at times during summer league to stay in front of quicker offensive players out on the perimeter.

Brissett is not on Stevens' level defensively and was out of the rotation for a good chunk of last season - on a lottery team.

[MeanGeraldGreen]

Oh baby.

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[GoCeltics123]

Oh baby.

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?s=20

The day Jimmy Haslam bought a stake in the Bucks was the day they died

One can hope

For real though, I don't see him leaving but he's right to see that the Bucks window doesn't have many years left

[MeanGeraldGreen]

Oh baby.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

The day Jimmy Haslam bought a stake in the Bucks was the day they died

One can hope

For real though, I don't see him leaving but he's right to see that the Bucks window doesn't have many years left

[bigfoot_cryptozoology]

Start those Herro to Boston rumours...

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[Larry_Russell]

Start those Herro to Boston rumours...

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Honestly, I would take Herro. Can be a 5th started when small, 6th man when going big.

[Larry_Russell]

Loading up on injury guys seems like a great way to get the number 1 pick.

[MeanGeraldGreen]

Loading up on injury guys seems like a great way to get the number 1 pick.

[Larry_Russell]

Brogdon and Kornet to the Heat for Herro

Jerimiah Robinson Earl, and Aaron Wiggins to Celtics (into TPE)

White/Pritchard/Banton
Brown/Herro/Walsh
Tatum/Hauser/Wiggins
Porzingas/Earl/Brissett
Timelord/Horford/???

[Hal14]

Brogdon and Kornet to the Heat for Herro

Jerimiah Robinson Earl, and Aaron Wiggins to Celtics (into TPE)

White/Pritchard/Banton
Brown/Herro/Walsh
Tatum/Hauser/Wiggins
Porzingas/Earl/Brissett
Timelord/Horford/???

Miami wouldn't do that trade. Riley hates the celtics and would not trade with us - especially not a trade that favors us so much like that one.

And this would put us WAY over the 2nd apron, and it seems like we're trying to stay under that..

[Celts17Pride]

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[return2glory]

It would be nice if we signed Lamar Stevens. We have enough scorers on this team. We need more defensive. He would be a good fit on this team.

[bigfoot_cryptozoology]

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I guess I must be missing something because I believe they should be bringing in big guys. With KP’s & Rob’s injury history and Al’s age, they need legit NBA big guy backups!! No not Kornet and Griffin again! I said legit! Is this wrong? — Jo Spence

I’m with you on this one. I think finding another reliable big should be a priority although it may end up happening via a midseason trade rather than on the free agent market now. With three injury prone/older guys making up your top bigs right now, the depth chart up front could look thin in a hurry. A lot depends on how much Oshae Brissett is ready for but I would like to see an upgrade added over Luke Kornet and/or Blake Griffin at some point in the year. For training camp, it may be simply adding an extra two-way big for extra injury insurance on back-to-backs but when it comes to the postseason, the Celtics need to prepare to have enough depth that can play when injuries hit.


Hello Brian. Of the 4 reported wing workouts, who among Louis King, TJ Warren, Glenn Robinson III, & Lamar Stevens, should sign? When should we expect a decision by Blake if he wants to return? Other bigs we could target for spot 15 if he doesn’t, I am thinking Biyombo or Javale? — Eddy FB

Guys like King and Robinson III are likely non-guaranteed guys at this point of their career with a chance to make the team if they have a great camp. As far as more realistic options, Stevens and Warren are likely looking for guaranteed money. I’m hesitant to give some to Warren given that a title contender in the Suns let him walk this offseason when they only had minimum contracts to spend. That’s a sign they think he’s likely done so I question whether the Celtics need to add that unless he’s had a big health bounce back this year. Stevens is a nice defensive presence at the wing, maybe a good spot energy guy if Jordan Walsh isn’t up to the task in that role as a rookie (unlikely given his age). I’d lean Stevens if Warren has health question marks still. Would expect a decision from Griffin next month before camp starts. I don’t think C’s will bring in Biyombo or McGee if they keep Kornet around.


Odds of getting Garuba? — Kenneth M

I assume pretty low. He’s young enough where I’m sure some rebuilding teams will be willing to take a flier on him and offer him a chance to play. The Celtics may have interest in Garuba for deep bench depth but he’s not going to crack the rotation with everyone healthy in my estimation.

Hi Brian -

A lot of the talk around Joe M is that one of the main reasons last season was so difficult for him is that he didn’t have any time to prepare.

My question is what type of preparation does a coaching staff typically do over the summer that he missed out on?

Thanks,

David


For a rookie head coach, the level of preparation would be fascinating to see in action. At a minimum, it’s a big time to map out big picture gameplan, whether its a type of way to play offensively or defensively and then figuring out the best way to implement during training camp and over the course of the year with practices. Additionally, the offseason can be a crucial chance to be spending time with players, coaches and consulting with those around the organization. Mazzulla had a lot thrown on his plate last year and was forced to “cram” for a pretty challenging test. With a year of experience and more time to prepare under his belt, it will be fascinating to see what adjustments are made in year two.