Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2

[djFan71]

I definitely agree with this 100%. This is America. The land of the FREE. Nobody should be forced to close down their business and lose their entire livelihoods. Especially over a virus that has a 99% survival rate. The solution shouldn't cause more harm than the problem itself. That is just insanity.

That's framing it exactly wrong. However flimsy and unenforced they have been, lockdowns and mask mandates have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in the US, and will continue to save several hundreds thousands more by the end of this. They will also prevent hundreds of thousands of people from having long-term or permanently debilitating impacts.

It should never have been viewed as a choice between lockdowns and saving the economy. Not only would the economic impacts be far, far greater without them, the real conversation is why the richest country on Earth did not provide sufficient stimulus to their citizens and small businesses to help us ride this out.

There is nothing about what I said that is framing it wrong if you believe in what america is supposed to stand for. Which is NOT letting the government tell you if you are allowed to spend time with your family for the holidays or not or if you are allowed to keep your business open. You don't shut down the entire country over a virus. Especially one where you stand a 99% chance of surviving. That is not a sustainable or reasonable. The lockdown is also ruining the lives of many small business owners at the moment. Alot of them won't be able to recover after this..

Regardless of rather you feel lockdowns are the way to go, it is completely 100% anti american. Anti freedom. If people want to go out to a restaurant they should be able to go out to a restaurant. That is their right as an american citizen. Regardless how YOU or I feel about it. People know the risks. They should be allowed to make choices for themselves and not be forced by the government to stay in the house.

Freedom always has to be balanced by its effects on others. If eating out, not wearing masks, being in crowds did nothing to increase the risk of other people getting the virus, then sure it's your personal choice. Go nuts. But, all those decisions do increase the likelihood someone else will get it. And die. It's not just about your freedom.

We've unfortunately chosen the worst path - ordered business shutdowns with no/limited support for those businesses. That is a horrible situation. But, requiring people to wear a mask so they don't unwittingly infect and kill other people is completely reasonable in a pandemic and crying "freedom" when you don't want to wear one is selfish at best.

[Tyakack]

That's framing it exactly wrong. However flimsy and unenforced they have been, lockdowns and mask mandates have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in the US, and will continue to save several hundreds thousands more by the end of this. They will also prevent hundreds of thousands of people from having long-term or permanently debilitating impacts.

It should never have been viewed as a choice between lockdowns and saving the economy. Not only would the economic impacts be far, far greater without them, the real conversation is why the richest country on Earth did not provide sufficient stimulus to their citizens and small businesses to help us ride this out.

There is nothing about what I said that is framing it wrong if you believe in what america is supposed to stand for. Which is NOT letting the government tell you if you are allowed to spend time with your family for the holidays or not or if you are allowed to keep your business open. You don't shut down the entire country over a virus. Especially one where you stand a 99% chance of surviving. That is not a sustainable or reasonable. The lockdown is also ruining the lives of many small business owners at the moment. Alot of them won't be able to recover after this..

Regardless of rather you feel lockdowns are the way to go, it is completely 100% anti american. Anti freedom. If people want to go out to a restaurant they should be able to go out to a restaurant. That is their right as an american citizen. Regardless how YOU or I feel about it. People know the risks. They should be allowed to make choices for themselves and not be forced by the government to stay in the house.

Well, this isn't the place to get political. Unlike the highly ideological and political statement that lockdowns infringe upon one's freedoms, I don't believe that I was doing so when pointing that these lockdowns during the height of a deadly global pandemic will save lives, and ultimately, benefit the national economy. Those are just statements of facts, tbh. We have case studies all over the world of places that handled this correctly (Japan, Germany, South Korea) vs ones that definitely did not (Sweden, the US).

I don't even think the notion of stimulus is really that political, especially given that George W Bush once gave out stimulus checks for literally no reason at all, to everyone, without means-testing.

I would just note here that we are fans of a team that plays in a city that was logging over a thousand dead people per day during the height of the 1918 pandemic. All four of my grandparents were born into families that were decimated by that virus. Both of my grandfathers were later subject to a mandatory draft, in which they were compelled to experience heavy combat in overseas wars with exactly no say in the matter. Did this infringe upon their individual freedoms, do you think?

Because if we are going to have a conversation about what is American or not, throughout our history, it is has been completely common to sacrifice individual freedoms during periods of national crisis in the name of the national interest. From food and supply rationing to military drafts during wartime to lockdowns and mask mandates during pandemics, it has always been part of being an American to act in the name of the greater good when called upon. Not a political take, just another statement of fact.

If acting in the name of individual freedoms is going to cost an additional 500k-1m lives, leave an additional hundreds of thousands debilitated, and do significant additional and needless damages to our economy, it is in no way somehow more "American".

In sum, no one has the "freedom" to kill other people's loved ones during a time of crisis, and that has nothing at all to do with being an American. That "right" was never granted to any of us at any point.

I appreciate the thought out post and I agree with alot of it. Where the disagreement comes in, I don't think shutting down the economy would be for the greater good. I think it will cause more harm than good. People severely underestimate what shutting down the economy does to people, to america. The amount of people that go out of business, become depressed, commit suicide even. Also, covid is nowhere near serious enough to take this kind of action. That is my biggest disagreement.

The overwhelming, I'm talking, 99%? of people that get covid will recover. So.......what is more reasonable I ask you? Shut down the entire country for 1% of the population, or that 1% of the population that is more at risk take more measures to ensure they don't get the virus? To me the answer is obvious. If you are in the higher risk category, stay home. Staying home is probably the best defense out of anything else. Better than wearing a mask, better than shutdowns. If you are THAT scared of covid for whatever reason you have every right to stay in the house as much as possible.. But the rest of the country, the 99%, should be free to go about their lives as normal. Not be forced to stay in the house and be told where they can and can't go and if they can see their families or not.

[Dave_From_NB]

I find the whole anti-mask thing so curious, from the context of why there aren't protests about being required to wear pants, ladies being required to wear tops (as well). No shirt, no shoes, no service is accepted, but no mask no service drives some around the bend. Being required to license vehicles, raise building permits, get a drivers license, pay taxes, no problem apparently. Being required to pick up your dogs crap, don't see any protests about that. I mean the thing whole thing is serious, but it's also kinda funny.

[Curmudgeon]

Trump made the mask thing a politicial statement, and his army of true believers would rather get covid, or expose their fiends and loved ones to covid, then go against the wishes of der fuhrer.

[Feed Your Head]

I really dislike the “it’s their choice as a free American to go into a restaurant or whatever,”

It’s not about the freedom to choose to risk getting it yourself, it’s the risk of spreading it and getting other people sick. It’s basically just giving a **** about other people.

I don’t want to wear a mask, I don’t want to not be able to go out. But I’m going to stay home anyways, because I’d rather not contribute to killing people. There’s a reason this country has become a laughingstock of the world over the handling of COVID.

[Captain_Caveman]

There is nothing about what I said that is framing it wrong if you believe in what america is supposed to stand for. Which is NOT letting the government tell you if you are allowed to spend time with your family for the holidays or not or if you are allowed to keep your business open. You don't shut down the entire country over a virus. Especially one where you stand a 99% chance of surviving. That is not a sustainable or reasonable. The lockdown is also ruining the lives of many small business owners at the moment. Alot of them won't be able to recover after this..

Regardless of rather you feel lockdowns are the way to go, it is completely 100% anti american. Anti freedom. If people want to go out to a restaurant they should be able to go out to a restaurant. That is their right as an american citizen. Regardless how YOU or I feel about it. People know the risks. They should be allowed to make choices for themselves and not be forced by the government to stay in the house.

Well, this isn't the place to get political. Unlike the highly ideological and political statement that lockdowns infringe upon one's freedoms, I don't believe that I was doing so when pointing that these lockdowns during the height of a deadly global pandemic will save lives, and ultimately, benefit the national economy. Those are just statements of facts, tbh. We have case studies all over the world of places that handled this correctly (Japan, Germany, South Korea) vs ones that definitely did not (Sweden, the US).

I don't even think the notion of stimulus is really that political, especially given that George W Bush once gave out stimulus checks for literally no reason at all, to everyone, without means-testing.

I would just note here that we are fans of a team that plays in a city that was logging over a thousand dead people per day during the height of the 1918 pandemic. All four of my grandparents were born into families that were decimated by that virus. Both of my grandfathers were later subject to a mandatory draft, in which they were compelled to experience heavy combat in overseas wars with exactly no say in the matter. Did this infringe upon their individual freedoms, do you think?

Because if we are going to have a conversation about what is American or not, throughout our history, it is has been completely common to sacrifice individual freedoms during periods of national crisis in the name of the national interest. From food and supply rationing to military drafts during wartime to lockdowns and mask mandates during pandemics, it has always been part of being an American to act in the name of the greater good when called upon. Not a political take, just another statement of fact.

If acting in the name of individual freedoms is going to cost an additional 500k-1m lives, leave an additional hundreds of thousands debilitated, and do significant additional and needless damages to our economy, it is in no way somehow more "American".

In sum, no one has the "freedom" to kill other people's loved ones during a time of crisis, and that has nothing at all to do with being an American. That "right" was never granted to any of us at any point.

I appreciate the thought out post and I agree with alot of it. Where the disagreement comes in, I don't think shutting down the economy would be for the greater good. I think it will cause more harm than good. People severely underestimate what shutting down the economy does to people, to america. The amount of people that go out of business, become depressed, commit suicide even. Also, covid is nowhere near serious enough to take this kind of action. That is my biggest disagreement.

The overwhelming, I'm talking, 99%? of people that get covid will recover. So.......what is more reasonable I ask you? Shut down the entire country for 1% of the population, or that 1% of the population that is more at risk take more measures to ensure they don't get the virus? To me the answer is obvious. If you are in the higher risk category, stay home. Staying home is probably the best defense out of anything else. Better than wearing a mask, better than shutdowns. If you are THAT scared of covid for whatever reason you have every right to stay in the house as much as possible.. But the rest of the country, the 99%, should be free to go about their lives as normal. Not be forced to stay in the house and be told where they can and can't go and if they can see their families or not.

All good. I have three basic disagreements with this.

#1, I disagree with the entire premise of allowing an additional 500k-1m people to die and hundreds of thousands of others to suffer to "save the economy" from a moral standpoint. 1% of a country of 330m is a pretty substantial number, and it is IMO pretty callous to gloss over that many additional deaths or debilitated people.

#2, I also disagree with it from a pragmatic standpoint. We would inflict vastly greater damage to our economy allowing that to happen than we would in trying harder to contain the virus. Period.

#3, we had another way. We didn't need to compel people to risk their lives, and those of the communities around them, by forcing them to go to work during a deadly pandemic trying to save their businesses. We could have and should have provided stimulus that incentivized them NOT doing that and helping to spread the virus at an exponential rate.

I don't really think any of this is that political or hypothetical. We have plenty of other examples of countries that did this far more successfully than whatever it is that we are trying to do.

[Tyakack]

I really dislike the “it’s their choice as a free American to go into a restaurant or whatever,”

It’s not about the freedom to choose to risk getting it yourself, it’s the risk of spreading it and getting other people sick. It’s basically just giving a **** about other people.

I don’t want to wear a mask, I don’t want to not be able to go out. But I’m going to stay home anyways, because I’d rather not contribute to killing people. There’s a reason this country has become a laughingstock of the world over the handling of COVID.

Just to be clear here, I don't go out and the rare times I do I wear a mask. My standpoint doesn't have to do with me personally. It's the rights I feel everyone should be allowed to have. Rather I disagree or not. I'm taking my feelings completely *mostly* out of the equation here when I make my points.... But we can agree to disagree I suppose. Nice chats anyways.

[Bad-Thoma]

deleted

[Bad-Thoma]

I really dislike the “it’s their choice as a free American to go into a restaurant or whatever,”

It’s not about the freedom to choose to risk getting it yourself, it’s the risk of spreading it and getting other people sick. It’s basically just giving a **** about other people.

I don’t want to wear a mask, I don’t want to not be able to go out. But I’m going to stay home anyways, because I’d rather not contribute to killing people. There’s a reason this country has become a laughingstock of the world over the handling of COVID.

Just to be clear here, I don't go out and the rare times I do I wear a mask. My standpoint doesn't have to do with me personally. It's the rights I feel everyone should be allowed to have. Rather I disagree or not. I'm taking my feelings completely *mostly* out of the equation here when I make my points.... But we can agree to disagree I suppose. Nice chats anyways.

I'm glad to hear you are doing the right thing and I hope my other post wasn't too dickish in tone. If it was as simple as 99% recover and we could isolate the 1% I'd agree overall, I just don't think that begins to encompass the reality of the problem.

edit: I deleted my other post, it was a bit dickish and the fact that you are wearing a mask alone makes we want to walk that back a little.

[Feed Your Head]

I really dislike the “it’s their choice as a free American to go into a restaurant or whatever,”

It’s not about the freedom to choose to risk getting it yourself, it’s the risk of spreading it and getting other people sick. It’s basically just giving a **** about other people.

I don’t want to wear a mask, I don’t want to not be able to go out. But I’m going to stay home anyways, because I’d rather not contribute to killing people. There’s a reason this country has become a laughingstock of the world over the handling of COVID.

Just to be clear here, I don't go out and the rare times I do I wear a mask. My standpoint doesn't have to do with me personally. It's the rights I feel everyone should be allowed to have. Rather I disagree or not. I'm taking my feelings completely *mostly* out of the equation here when I make my points.... But we can agree to disagree I suppose. Nice chats anyways.

Nah I like having adult discussions about this, they are pretty rare.

[ddb]

Trump made the mask thing a politicial statement, and his army of true believers would rather get covid, or expose their fiends and loved ones to covid, then go against the wishes of der fuhrer.

sorry but this statement is ridiculous. has nothing to do with Trump. and let's not get into a political argument.

[ddb]

I really dislike the “it’s their choice as a free American to go into a restaurant or whatever,”

It’s not about the freedom to choose to risk getting it yourself, it’s the risk of spreading it and getting other people sick. It’s basically just giving a **** about other people.

I don’t want to wear a mask, I don’t want to not be able to go out. But I’m going to stay home anyways, because I’d rather not contribute to killing people. There’s a reason this country has become a laughingstock of the world over the handling of COVID.

masks are a false sense of security. period. so is social distancing. lockdowns will temporarily work, as people are staying indoors for the most part, but as soon as they go back out the problem is waiting there for them. therefor, lockdowns don't work either as the trickle down issues lockdowns cause far exceed that of remaining open (depression, drugs, closing small businesses, etc)

and let's also point out that here in Florida I've met dozens of people that have recently moved down permanently from NY, MA, Cali, IL, etc because it's gotten so far outta hand up there. It's a mass exodus as people are catching on more and more by the day and moving to Texas, Florida, Arizona, TN, etc....that at the end of the day there's very little difference if any at all from a cases/deaths/hospitalizations per capita between states shut down and states open.
to tie it all together, there is a very, very large population of people that would rather live free and be open, and take their chances then those that are robots to what our government is ordering.

I'm sorry but Dr. Fauci, Bill Gates and the BIG Pharma organizations they represent do not represent me. Never will. We live in a free country. What is really happening is the democrats and working closing with big tech, big Pharma, and lord knows who else to destroy small businesses which in turn makes millions and millions of people dependent on the government. That's what they want. They want to control health care and schools. They want to heavily tax firearms and ammunition. They already control the media. and the media is our biggest enemy right now as it's misleading the American people. They want tracking and forced vaccinations. They want a monopoly of only a very few providers of all life's essentials. the list goes on and on. It's all about control and this is exactly what happens in countries like Russia, China, Venezuala, North Korea, etc.
You can say I'm nuts all you want. I'm not alone. Not even close. Talk to people that have escaped communism and socialism countries. Who have lived through it. They will tell you. I don't have to tell you. They will tell you how familiar all of this is. I did business with a well educated and highly respected man from Venezuela that told me right at the onset of all this how worried he is about America.

and from a basketball perspective since at the end of the day this is a basketball forum....athletes, celebrities, and the rich are always at the front of the line because they like being rich...they all just follow suit because if they don't their careers are in jeopardy. Plus, the rich aren't impacted by any of this even remotely close to middle class. The poor don't mind because it's all handouts for them. Who is impacted by covid? by lockdowns. the working man & woman. their families. the majority of the country.
this is NOT just about a virus. viruses have been around since the beginning of time. Some worse than others. in this case you don't shut down the country multiple times over a virus you need to get tested to know you have. I understood the first shut down. but now it's just out of hand and unnecessary.

We are at war. There are forces of evil in this world that are successfully creating chaos in our country. turning people against each other, most of which don't even know who's good and who's bad, or what they are fighting about. Antifa, BLM, Proud Boys, republicans, democrats. a virus. this isn't all coincidental. It's deliberate. and if you can't see through the first layer of what you hear on TV then I feel sorry for you.

[Feed Your Head]

[Curmudgeon]

I really dislike the “it’s their choice as a free American to go into a restaurant or whatever,”

It’s not about the freedom to choose to risk getting it yourself, it’s the risk of spreading it and getting other people sick. It’s basically just giving a **** about other people.

I don’t want to wear a mask, I don’t want to not be able to go out. But I’m going to stay home anyways, because I’d rather not contribute to killing people. There’s a reason this country has become a laughingstock of the world over the handling of COVID.

masks are a false sense of security. period. so is social distancing. lockdowns will temporarily work, as people are staying indoors for the most part, but as soon as they go back out the problem is waiting there for them. therefor, lockdowns don't work either as the trickle down issues lockdowns cause far exceed that of remaining open (depression, drugs, closing small businesses, etc)

and let's also point out that here in Florida I've met dozens of people that have recently moved down permanently from NY, MA, Cali, IL, etc because it's gotten so far outta hand up there. It's a mass exodus as people are catching on more and more by the day and moving to Texas, Florida, Arizona, TN, etc....that at the end of the day there's very little difference if any at all from a cases/deaths/hospitalizations per capita between states shut down and states open.
to tie it all together, there is a very, very large population of people that would rather live free and be open, and take their chances then those that are robots to what our government is ordering.

I'm sorry but Dr. Fauci, Bill Gates and the BIG Pharma organizations they represent do not represent me. Never will. We live in a free country. What is really happening is the democrats and working closing with big tech, big Pharma, and lord knows who else to destroy small businesses which in turn makes millions and millions of people dependent on the government. That's what they want. They want to control health care and schools. They want to heavily tax firearms and ammunition. They already control the media. and the media is our biggest enemy right now as it's misleading the American people. They want tracking and forced vaccinations. They want a monopoly of only a very few providers of all life's essentials. the list goes on and on. It's all about control and this is exactly what happens in countries like Russia, China, Venezuala, North Korea, etc.
You can say I'm nuts all you want. I'm not alone. Not even close. Talk to people that have escaped communism and socialism countries. Who have lived through it. They will tell you. I don't have to tell you. They will tell you how familiar all of this is. I did business with a well educated and highly respected man from Venezuela that told me right at the onset of all this how worried he is about America.

and from a basketball perspective since at the end of the day this is a basketball forum....athletes, celebrities, and the rich are always at the front of the line because they like being rich...they all just follow suit because if they don't their careers are in jeopardy. Plus, the rich aren't impacted by any of this even remotely close to middle class. The poor don't mind because it's all handouts for them. Who is impacted by covid? by lockdowns. the working man & woman. their families. the majority of the country.
this is NOT just about a virus. viruses have been around since the beginning of time. Some worse than others. in this case you don't shut down the country multiple times over a virus you need to get tested to know you have. I understood the first shut down. but now it's just out of hand and unnecessary.

We are at war. There are forces of evil in this world that are successfully creating chaos in our country. turning people against each other, most of which don't even know who's good and who's bad, or what they are fighting about. Antifa, BLM, Proud Boys, republicans, democrats. a virus. this isn't all coincidental. It's deliberate. and if you can't see through the first layer of what you hear on TV then I feel sorry for you.

I'm calling BS. I'll listen to virtually every trained virologist in the world, not to a conspiracy theorist. And the force of evil in this country is Putin style fascism, where fabulously wealthy oligarchs own and control everything. It's the new gilded age. Trump is an embodiment of this pestilence on one side of the aisle, but Zuckerberg lurks on the other side.

[celtics543]

I really dislike the “it’s their choice as a free American to go into a restaurant or whatever,”

It’s not about the freedom to choose to risk getting it yourself, it’s the risk of spreading it and getting other people sick. It’s basically just giving a **** about other people.

I don’t want to wear a mask, I don’t want to not be able to go out. But I’m going to stay home anyways, because I’d rather not contribute to killing people. There’s a reason this country has become a laughingstock of the world over the handling of COVID.

masks are a false sense of security. period. so is social distancing. lockdowns will temporarily work, as people are staying indoors for the most part, but as soon as they go back out the problem is waiting there for them. therefor, lockdowns don't work either as the trickle down issues lockdowns cause far exceed that of remaining open (depression, drugs, closing small businesses, etc)

and let's also point out that here in Florida I've met dozens of people that have recently moved down permanently from NY, MA, Cali, IL, etc because it's gotten so far outta hand up there. It's a mass exodus as people are catching on more and more by the day and moving to Texas, Florida, Arizona, TN, etc....that at the end of the day there's very little difference if any at all from a cases/deaths/hospitalizations per capita between states shut down and states open.
to tie it all together, there is a very, very large population of people that would rather live free and be open, and take their chances then those that are robots to what our government is ordering.

I'm sorry but Dr. Fauci, Bill Gates and the BIG Pharma organizations they represent do not represent me. Never will. We live in a free country. What is really happening is the democrats and working closing with big tech, big Pharma, and lord knows who else to destroy small businesses which in turn makes millions and millions of people dependent on the government. That's what they want. They want to control health care and schools. They want to heavily tax firearms and ammunition. They already control the media. and the media is our biggest enemy right now as it's misleading the American people. They want tracking and forced vaccinations. They want a monopoly of only a very few providers of all life's essentials. the list goes on and on. It's all about control and this is exactly what happens in countries like Russia, China, Venezuala, North Korea, etc.
You can say I'm nuts all you want. I'm not alone. Not even close. Talk to people that have escaped communism and socialism countries. Who have lived through it. They will tell you. I don't have to tell you. They will tell you how familiar all of this is. I did business with a well educated and highly respected man from Venezuela that told me right at the onset of all this how worried he is about America.

and from a basketball perspective since at the end of the day this is a basketball forum....athletes, celebrities, and the rich are always at the front of the line because they like being rich...they all just follow suit because if they don't their careers are in jeopardy. Plus, the rich aren't impacted by any of this even remotely close to middle class. The poor don't mind because it's all handouts for them. Who is impacted by covid? by lockdowns. the working man & woman. their families. the majority of the country.
this is NOT just about a virus. viruses have been around since the beginning of time. Some worse than others. in this case you don't shut down the country multiple times over a virus you need to get tested to know you have. I understood the first shut down. but now it's just out of hand and unnecessary.

We are at war. There are forces of evil in this world that are successfully creating chaos in our country. turning people against each other, most of which don't even know who's good and who's bad, or what they are fighting about. Antifa, BLM, Proud Boys, republicans, democrats. a virus. this isn't all coincidental. It's deliberate. and if you can't see through the first layer of what you hear on TV then I feel sorry for you.

With all due respect, why would the rest of the world be going along with this? I understand what you're saying and I've heard it in other places too and I guess I can follow that line of thinking if this was an American only experience but can you explain why every other country is doing similar things? Is it a worldwide conspiracy? I can see you are blaming democrats, and fair enough I'm not a fan of either party, but are you saying that they run the entire world?

This whole thing just seems to fall apart when you consider that the entire world is doing lockdowns and using protective measures. I'm not saying there aren't bad people out there trying to use this pandemic to help themselves but a conspiracy on the level you're talking about would literally require tens of thousands of willing co-conspirators who also agree to keep the whole thing a secret.

[Disinformation]

I mean, not every country is going along. Sweden didn't and their COVID-19 deaths per capita were only 5-10 times higher than the other Scandinavian countries.

[jmr07019]

I'm sorry but Dr. Fauci, Bill Gates and the BIG Pharma organizations they represent do not represent me. Never will. We live in a free country. What is really happening is the democrats and working closing with big tech, big Pharma, and lord knows who else to destroy small businesses which in turn makes millions and millions of people dependent on the government. That's what they want. They want to control health care and schools. They want to heavily tax firearms and ammunition. They already control the media. and the media is our biggest enemy right now as it's misleading the American people. They want tracking and forced vaccinations. They want a monopoly of only a very few providers of all life's essentials. the list goes on and on. It's all about control and this is exactly what happens in countries like Russia, China, Venezuala, North Korea, etc.

Quoted for truth. It's amazing how many people believe anything and everything their tv tells them.

[Curmudgeon]

They already control the media. and the media is our biggest enemy right now as it's misleading the American people.

Quoted for truth. It's amazing how many people believe anything and everything their tv tells them.[/quote]

LOL, sure, if you are referring to Fox News, Breitbart< Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and a host of other commentators in the right wing media bubble.

[ddb]

I really dislike the “it’s their choice as a free American to go into a restaurant or whatever,”

It’s not about the freedom to choose to risk getting it yourself, it’s the risk of spreading it and getting other people sick. It’s basically just giving a **** about other people.

I don’t want to wear a mask, I don’t want to not be able to go out. But I’m going to stay home anyways, because I’d rather not contribute to killing people. There’s a reason this country has become a laughingstock of the world over the handling of COVID.

masks are a false sense of security. period. so is social distancing. lockdowns will temporarily work, as people are staying indoors for the most part, but as soon as they go back out the problem is waiting there for them. therefor, lockdowns don't work either as the trickle down issues lockdowns cause far exceed that of remaining open (depression, drugs, closing small businesses, etc)

and let's also point out that here in Florida I've met dozens of people that have recently moved down permanently from NY, MA, Cali, IL, etc because it's gotten so far outta hand up there. It's a mass exodus as people are catching on more and more by the day and moving to Texas, Florida, Arizona, TN, etc....that at the end of the day there's very little difference if any at all from a cases/deaths/hospitalizations per capita between states shut down and states open.
to tie it all together, there is a very, very large population of people that would rather live free and be open, and take their chances then those that are robots to what our government is ordering.

I'm sorry but Dr. Fauci, Bill Gates and the BIG Pharma organizations they represent do not represent me. Never will. We live in a free country. What is really happening is the democrats and working closing with big tech, big Pharma, and lord knows who else to destroy small businesses which in turn makes millions and millions of people dependent on the government. That's what they want. They want to control health care and schools. They want to heavily tax firearms and ammunition. They already control the media. and the media is our biggest enemy right now as it's misleading the American people. They want tracking and forced vaccinations. They want a monopoly of only a very few providers of all life's essentials. the list goes on and on. It's all about control and this is exactly what happens in countries like Russia, China, Venezuala, North Korea, etc.
You can say I'm nuts all you want. I'm not alone. Not even close. Talk to people that have escaped communism and socialism countries. Who have lived through it. They will tell you. I don't have to tell you. They will tell you how familiar all of this is. I did business with a well educated and highly respected man from Venezuela that told me right at the onset of all this how worried he is about America.

and from a basketball perspective since at the end of the day this is a basketball forum....athletes, celebrities, and the rich are always at the front of the line because they like being rich...they all just follow suit because if they don't their careers are in jeopardy. Plus, the rich aren't impacted by any of this even remotely close to middle class. The poor don't mind because it's all handouts for them. Who is impacted by covid? by lockdowns. the working man & woman. their families. the majority of the country.
this is NOT just about a virus. viruses have been around since the beginning of time. Some worse than others. in this case you don't shut down the country multiple times over a virus you need to get tested to know you have. I understood the first shut down. but now it's just out of hand and unnecessary.

We are at war. There are forces of evil in this world that are successfully creating chaos in our country. turning people against each other, most of which don't even know who's good and who's bad, or what they are fighting about. Antifa, BLM, Proud Boys, republicans, democrats. a virus. this isn't all coincidental. It's deliberate. and if you can't see through the first layer of what you hear on TV then I feel sorry for you.

With all due respect, why would the rest of the world be going along with this? I understand what you're saying and I've heard it in other places too and I guess I can follow that line of thinking if this was an American only experience but can you explain why every other country is doing similar things? Is it a worldwide conspiracy? I can see you are blaming democrats, and fair enough I'm not a fan of either party, but are you saying that they run the entire world?

This whole thing just seems to fall apart when you consider that the entire world is doing lockdowns and using protective measures. I'm not saying there aren't bad people out there trying to use this pandemic to help themselves but a conspiracy on the level you're talking about would literally require tens of thousands of willing co-conspirators who also agree to keep the whole thing a secret.

actually, I do wholeheartedly believe it's a global thing. It's really not that difficult to comprehend why that could be the case when you look at it from a world power perspective and what the UN, WHO agenda could look like. It's warfare unlike any we have seen to date. But to answer your question on why the rest of the world would go along with it. I believe there 100% is a global agenda here. I don't pretend to know all the answers because I don't, but we do live in a small world and to think that Trump being at the center of a global issue silly and political really isn't all that silly and political. To quote Joseph Stalin, "America is like a healthy body and it's resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, American will collapse from within." and now to quote the great Abraham Lincoln, " American will never be destroyed from outside. If we falter we falter and lose our freedoms it will be because we destroyed ourselves." now you're probably thinking, okay but why would there be American citizens and politicians that would undermine their own country??? Great question. It's because of power. It's because of deals in place with foreign entities. It's because if America is no longer the world power or the America we have all grown up in, it doesn't effect these rich and powerful people behind it. They get richer and more powerful from it.
People need to wake up. Yes, there's a virus, but it's not this death sentence that's killing millions. Very easy to manipulate cases, deaths, etc and I won't even get into that right now. It's biological warfare, paired with very obvious tactics to create internal chaos and to turn people against one another. It's not just here in America. It's in Europe and other places as well. But the center of it all is here in America.
I strongly encourage all of you to remove pride, egos, and politics from the equation and do some good hard research about the layers of topics we are all posting about.

[Curmudgeon]

Trump made the mask thing a politicial statement, and his army of true believers would rather get covid, or expose their fiends and loved ones to covid, then go against the wishes of der fuhrer.

sorry but this statement is ridiculous. has nothing to do with Trump. and let's not get into a political argument.

We're already in a political argument, fueled by your uninformed post above. Tell us where you got your medical degree in virology and immunology so that someone might actually agree with anything you say except for fellow cult members.