Kemba Walker Thread

[zoyathedestroya]

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Kemba vs Kyrie offensive package -- Less isos. More drives to the basket. Gets to the line more often. Less midrange.
TBD under Brad's system and w/ better teammates -- Overall efficiency. Assist rate. Offball game.

[Slartibartfast]

Honestly I think kemba could have a career year here and be even more efficient than before.

Very reasonable thought. But the same thing happened for IT and Kyrie and it didn't amount to much.

The problem with Kemba and Kyrie and IT playing to their best is that it makes everyone else secondary and it doesn't really take the team anywhere special.

We've seen this for several years now. The first two IT year we get bounced in the first round. Then IT puts up near 30 a game, gets MVP hype and we were on the verge of getting swept by the Bulls in the first round until Rondo got hurt. Then we barely survive against a middling Wizards team and get obliterated by the Cavs (with our lone victory the result of Smart leading the charge at PG). Next year we lose Kyrie and magically become a tough playoff team with Rozier and Smart running the show. Then we get Kyrie back and flameout.

It's not just us either. Lillard gets worshipped in Portland and he has some amazing heroics for sure, but I watched that same team get obliterated by the Pelicans in the same way we almost got swept by the Bulls.

Everyone wants to take advantage of the rule and style changes that make it possible for quick bomber guards to dominate games, but doing so has elevated a lot of one-trick ponies to the superstar stage where their teams then collapse when their one trick isn't enough.

Other than Kyrie playing the Robin to LBJ's Batman, it hasn't worked.

Steph says hi. Not that it helps us because Kemba isn't Steph but your last sentence isn't really accurate. I think our biggest problem these last 4 year has been lack of big men talent. With Horford leaving that problem has gotten worse. Ainge has some serious work to do.

Steph is a very good passer and a good defender. He's very different from the IT/Kemba/Lillard/Irving group, none of whom play D (though Kyrie was occasionally capable with his size and strength) and none of whom are all that good as floor generals.

He's also incomparably, generationally good at scoring. The other 4 are great at it, but not particularly close.

[Slartibartfast]

Watch on YouTube

Kemba vs Kyrie offensive package -- Less isos. More drives to the basket. Gets to the line more often. Less midrange.
TBD under Brad's system and w/ better teammates -- Overall efficiency. Assist rate. Offball game.

I think Kemba will be much more IT-like in his willingness to score in a variety of ways.

But let's not crap too much on Charlotte's supporting cast. They weren't great but they were good at letting Kemba be Kemba. A screen/roll specialist in Cody Zeller (who had great rapport with Kemba). A stretch 4 in Marvin Williams. Batum as 3/D with secondary playmaking. Lamb as a secondary PNR guy and pressure release. Solid spacing, a good blend of offensive talent.

[zoyathedestroya]

Watch on YouTube

Kemba vs Kyrie offensive package -- Less isos. More drives to the basket. Gets to the line more often. Less midrange.
TBD under Brad's system and w/ better teammates -- Overall efficiency. Assist rate. Offball game.

I think Kemba will be much more IT-like in his willingness to score in a variety of ways.

But let's not crap too much on Charlotte's supporting cast. They weren't great but they were good at letting Kemba be Kemba. A screen/roll specialist in Cody Zeller (who had great rapport with Kemba). A stretch 4 in Marvin Williams. Batum as 3/D with secondary playmaking. Lamb as a secondary PNR guy and pressure release. Solid spacing, a good blend of offensive talent.

In terms of teammates, they're closer to whoever IT had pre-Horford in Boston:
Marvin Williams --> Jae Crowder
Lamb --> Evan Turner
Batum (no longer peak Batum) --> AB
Zeller (not the same since spate of injuries) --> combo of KO, Amir, Sully

Coaching advantage goes to Stevens.

Solid role players at this point of their careers. He didn't have a clear #2. We probably won't have either if Gordon stays the same and Tatum doesn't progress. But my bet is one or both of those things happen this season.

[Slartibartfast]

Watch on YouTube

Kemba vs Kyrie offensive package -- Less isos. More drives to the basket. Gets to the line more often. Less midrange.
TBD under Brad's system and w/ better teammates -- Overall efficiency. Assist rate. Offball game.

I think Kemba will be much more IT-like in his willingness to score in a variety of ways.

But let's not crap too much on Charlotte's supporting cast. They weren't great but they were good at letting Kemba be Kemba. A screen/roll specialist in Cody Zeller (who had great rapport with Kemba). A stretch 4 in Marvin Williams. Batum as 3/D with secondary playmaking. Lamb as a secondary PNR guy and pressure release. Solid spacing, a good blend of offensive talent.

In terms of teammates, they're closer to whoever IT had pre-Horford in Boston:
Marvin Williams --> Jae Crowder
Lamb --> Evan Turner
Batum (no longer peak Batum) --> AB
Zeller (not the same since spate of injuries) --> combo of KO, Amir, Sully

Coaching advantage goes to Stevens.

Solid role players at this point of their careers. He didn't have a clear #2. We probably won't have either if Gordon stays the same and Tatum doesn't progress. But my bet is one or both of those things happen this season.

But guys progressing past roleplayer status represents a problem, just as it did last year. IT scoring an insane amount of points worked because AB/Jae couldn't dribble to save their lives and got their best scoring output by playing off of the main PNR/DHO hand-offs between IT/Al (or ET or Smart and KO off the bench).

But the Jays don't want to be AB/Jae. Especially not Tatum. He wants to be able to iso out of triple threat or take guys into the mid-post. And Hayward is too timid and deferential as a 3rd wheel to a bunch of shot-hounds. He becomes a shorter KO - a ball-mover who scores opportunistically.

So what I expect is that we establish a high-usage pecking order like Portland (or OKC) has, with Kemba as Lillard, Tatum as McCollum and everyone else relegated to 3/D and garbage man duty. Heck we're even looking to bring in Kanter.

It could work as a high 40s win team in the short-term while we wait for the next superstar shoe to drop, but I think it will lead to some friction with JB pigeon-holed into a Harkless/Aminu style 3/D cog. I also think it will be sub-optimal for Hayward, who will need more usage to make up for his D and might end up stuck in ET-ville as an overpaid bench creator. I'd also expect it to suck harder than the Blazers on D.

A healthier development path would involve Kemba shrinking his usage down to the 26% range he was at earlier in his career to allow Hayward in particular a big chunk of the offense (if he's capable of it) which in turn will keep the Jays involved (and maybe keep Tatum from treading to far down the Melo/Kobe path of ball-hog iso scoring).

[zoyathedestroya]

I think Kemba will be much more IT-like in his willingness to score in a variety of ways.

But let's not crap too much on Charlotte's supporting cast. They weren't great but they were good at letting Kemba be Kemba. A screen/roll specialist in Cody Zeller (who had great rapport with Kemba). A stretch 4 in Marvin Williams. Batum as 3/D with secondary playmaking. Lamb as a secondary PNR guy and pressure release. Solid spacing, a good blend of offensive talent.

In terms of teammates, they're closer to whoever IT had pre-Horford in Boston:
Marvin Williams --> Jae Crowder
Lamb --> Evan Turner
Batum (no longer peak Batum) --> AB
Zeller (not the same since spate of injuries) --> combo of KO, Amir, Sully

Coaching advantage goes to Stevens.

Solid role players at this point of their careers. He didn't have a clear #2. We probably won't have either if Gordon stays the same and Tatum doesn't progress. But my bet is one or both of those things happen this season.

But guys progressing past roleplayer status represents a problem, just as it did last year. IT scoring an insane amount of points worked because AB/Jae couldn't dribble to save their lives and got their best scoring output by playing off of the main PNR/DHO hand-offs between IT/Al (or ET or Smart and KO off the bench).

But the Jays don't want to be AB/Jae. Especially not Tatum. He wants to be able to iso out of triple threat or take guys into the mid-post. And Hayward is too timid and deferential as a 3rd wheel to a bunch of shot-hounds. He becomes a shorter KO - a ball-mover who scores opportunistically.

So what I expect is that we establish a high-usage pecking order like Portland (or OKC) has, with Kemba as Lillard, Tatum as McCollum and everyone else relegated to 3/D and garbage man duty. Heck we're even looking to bring in Kanter.

It could work as a high 40s win team in the short-term while we wait for the next superstar shoe to drop, but I think it will lead to some friction with JB pigeon-holed into a Harkless/Aminu style 3/D cog. I also think it will be sub-optimal for Hayward, who will need more usage to make up for his D and might end up stuck in ET-ville as an overpaid bench creator. I'd also expect it to suck harder than the Blazers on D.

A healthier development path would involve Kemba shrinking his usage down to the 26% range he was at earlier in his career to allow Hayward in particular a big chunk of the offense (if he's capable of it) which in turn will keep the Jays involved (and maybe keep Tatum from treading to far down the Melo/Kobe path of ball-hog iso scoring).

I agree with most of your points. I was the biggest proponent of Hayward-needs-higher-usage campaign. With Jaylen's handles and vision, he really shouldn't be more than a 3&D guy on this team. Problem is he sees himself more than that and would like to expand his game on the court. Kemba did have lower usage during Hornets' best season. Maybe he defers to his teammates and is more willing to play off-the-ball in favor of a more coherent and flowing offense. We shall see. Hopefully, Celtics braintrust are seeing the same. I personally think Brown is gonna be moved at some point during the season if the goal is to win sooner than later. Would they really pay him in the 20M range just to be the 4th guy on a non-contender?

One thing I'm more confident about though -- Kemba will fit better than Kyrie did, both on the court and off it. I'm more worried about our defense than our offense. Pending other moves, that alone sets our ceiling quite low.

[celticfan42487]

Kemba vs Kyrie offensive package -- Less isos. More drives to the basket. Gets to the line more often. Less midrange.
TBD under Brad's system and w/ better teammates -- Overall efficiency. Assist rate. Offball game.

I think this is a bit of a stretch. To the point I don't think a single one of those is actually a factual statement.

Or the difference is immaterial. Irving's key play is a layup with English, Kemba's key play is a step back long 2.

Irving career stats: 22 ppg 6 aspg 3.6rpg 1 steal. 46.5%fg 39% 3 87.5%FT. 4.4 FTA per game
Kemba career stats: 20 ppg 5.5 aspg 3.8rpg 1 steal. 42%fg 35.5%3 83.5%FT. 4.7 FTA per game

On court Kemba is just a straight up worse player and always has been.

He's still an great signing, but let's not act like he's IT (which this team desperately needs a IT and someone getting 8FTApergame would open up all of our other players game) and will suddenly be the endless driving to the basket kick out of 3 player that will ignite our entire teams game in an MVP way.

Kemba is a lesser Irving on the court. But a much superior off-court leader, and an ironman.

[zoyathedestroya]

Kemba vs Kyrie offensive package -- Less isos. More drives to the basket. Gets to the line more often. Less midrange.
TBD under Brad's system and w/ better teammates -- Overall efficiency. Assist rate. Offball game.

I think this is a bit of a stretch. To the point I don't think a single one of those is actually a factual statement.

Or the difference is immaterial. Irving's key play is a layup with English, Kemba's key play is a step back long 2.

Irving career stats: 22 ppg 6 aspg 3.6rpg 1 steal. 46.5%fg 39% 3 87.5%FT. 4.4 FTA per game
Kemba career stats: 20 ppg 5.5 aspg 3.8rpg 1 steal. 42%fg 35.5%3 83.5%FT. 4.7 FTA per game

On court Kemba is just a straight up worse player and always has been.

He's still an great signing, but let's not act like he's IT (which this team desperately needs a IT and someone getting 8FTApergame would open up all of our other players game) and will suddenly be the endless driving to the basket kick out of 3 player that will ignite our entire teams game in an MVP way.

Kemba is a lesser Irving on the court. But a much superior off-court leader, and an ironman.

I was basing it from last season. stats.nba.com has data on all those areas and austinclemens has the shot charts. Too lazy to post. You can look them up yourself.

[ZeroTolerance]

I moved to Uconn from Boston, still live here, and even got to know Kemba a little bit when he was here. Had the pleasure of playing with him a few times because my neighbor was the starting center for that title team.

I'm telling you guys, you'll love Kemba! Loyal dude, and shows love to the fans. Knows where he's from, and knows where he wants to be. Cardiac Kemba is my greatest sports moment with the exception of 2008, and Pierce getting his redemption, and tells you everything you need to know about Walker.

Driven, and WANTS the competition. Has no problem being the guy, but doesn't let his ego get in the way of other player.

My best moment in basketball came in 2010-12. My friends and I broke into Gamble, and we're playing 2v2, when Kemba came walking out. He asked security to escort us out, but when my friend on the team told him "naa this kid is money with that corner 3" Kemba didn't believe him, asked us to stay and play a 3v3 instead. I hit that corner 3 right in his eye, and having him give me daps after is still the greatest basketball moment of my life.

Not the greatest story, but just an insight into the man we just signed to a 141 mil contract. Boston will love him

Sent from my D6708 using RealGM mobile app

Great story!...Always like the "human" takes....It means allot to know the players that you root for...Personal experiences are tops!

[celticfan42487]

I think Kemba will be much more IT-like in his willingness to score in a variety of ways.

But let's not crap too much on Charlotte's supporting cast. They weren't great but they were good at letting Kemba be Kemba. A screen/roll specialist in Cody Zeller (who had great rapport with Kemba). A stretch 4 in Marvin Williams. Batum as 3/D with secondary playmaking. Lamb as a secondary PNR guy and pressure release. Solid spacing, a good blend of offensive talent.

In terms of teammates, they're closer to whoever IT had pre-Horford in Boston:
Marvin Williams --> Jae Crowder
Lamb --> Evan Turner
Batum (no longer peak Batum) --> AB
Zeller (not the same since spate of injuries) --> combo of KO, Amir, Sully

Coaching advantage goes to Stevens.

Solid role players at this point of their careers. He didn't have a clear #2. We probably won't have either if Gordon stays the same and Tatum doesn't progress. But my bet is one or both of those things happen this season.

But guys progressing past roleplayer status represents a problem, just as it did last year. IT scoring an insane amount of points worked because AB/Jae couldn't dribble to save their lives and got their best scoring output by playing off of the main PNR/DHO hand-offs between IT/Al (or ET or Smart and KO off the bench).

But the Jays don't want to be AB/Jae. Especially not Tatum. He wants to be able to iso out of triple threat or take guys into the mid-post. And Hayward is too timid and deferential as a 3rd wheel to a bunch of shot-hounds. He becomes a shorter KO - a ball-mover who scores opportunistically.

So what I expect is that we establish a high-usage pecking order like Portland (or OKC) has, with Kemba as Lillard, Tatum as McCollum and everyone else relegated to 3/D and garbage man duty. Heck we're even looking to bring in Kanter.

It could work as a high 40s win team in the short-term while we wait for the next superstar shoe to drop, but I think it will lead to some friction with JB pigeon-holed into a Harkless/Aminu style 3/D cog. I also think it will be sub-optimal for Hayward, who will need more usage to make up for his D and might end up stuck in ET-ville as an overpaid bench creator. I'd also expect it to suck harder than the Blazers on D.

A healthier development path would involve Kemba shrinking his usage down to the 26% range he was at earlier in his career to allow Hayward in particular a big chunk of the offense (if he's capable of it) which in turn will keep the Jays involved (and maybe keep Tatum from treading to far down the Melo/Kobe path of ball-hog iso scoring).

Basically we're hoping one of, but ideally 2 of the three of Hayward/Tatum/Brown develop into competent drive and kick players that can create offense for others.

It's a huge long shot, but I don't think it's out of the realm for Brown to get there next season. It would definitely be an outlier development path though. If Brown can tighten up his handle and start doing some decent one on one blowby moves he has the athleticism and strength to do it though.

Tatum needs to both tighten his handle and put on a lot of muscle to do it. But unlike Brown he's shown good one one one moves but even the weakest of players in the NBA seem to be able to rip him on drives with ease.

Hayward may be done as more than a bench player in the NBA, but who knows. Maybe he gets Evan Turner level of hops back and next season is an NBA player. He still can pass better than anyone on the roster, that includes Kemba.

It's all up to 2 of those 3 breaking out next year for this team, or we're just going to be the Hornets but with better depth. Basically what the Hornets would be if they had Marcus Smart on their team last year and didn't lose any other player as a consequence.

[zoyathedestroya]

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[jcappy]

A win-win situation for Charlotte because it needed to bottom out. Tell that to the Charlotte fans, who have seen nothing but bottoming out. What a league.

Mixed thoughts about Walker mainly because I have always thought of him as a 24 million type player, not a max guy. And wished too that he could be a bit younger in a sport that takes one hell of a lot out of players. This season we will have 74 million sunk into 2 players and a 109 million salary cap. Sounds absurd on the face of it. Maybe that's another reason the max salary is hard for me to embrace... the loss through Hayward portends this may be similar. But I'm aboard, nevertheless.

[jfs1000d]

The nba media and nba executives live Kemba on Celtics and think Boston is decent. With no center, projections are this Celtics team at 49 wins. I expect Tatum and Hayward to explode this year however.


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[Turgon]

This season we will have 74 million sunk into 2 players and a 109 million salary cap.

Remember that is not a hard cap. It's just a threshold above which you are no longer free to sign whoever you want.

But you can (and will) go above 109 million. In fact, our salary for last year must have been around 125 million.

[Green89]

kemba vs kyrie, last year:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=kemba+Walker&player_id1_select=Kemba+Walker&y1=2019&player_id1=walkeke02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=kyrie+Irving&player_id2_select=Kyrie+Irving&y2=2019&player_id2=irvinky01&idx=players

very similar per 36. the main difference is efficiency, which is very important, but this could be offset some by having better teammates and a better scheme. not to mention that kemba is a bulldog who shows up every day, not some aloof emo woke dude.

Honestly I think kemba could have a career year here and be even more efficient than before.

Very reasonable thought. But the same thing happened for IT and Kyrie and it didn't amount to much.

The problem with Kemba and Kyrie and IT playing to their best is that it makes everyone else secondary and it doesn't really take the team anywhere special.

We've seen this for several years now. The first two IT year we get bounced in the first round. Then IT puts up near 30 a game, gets MVP hype and we were on the verge of getting swept by the Bulls in the first round until Rondo got hurt. Then we barely survive against a middling Wizards team and get obliterated by the Cavs (with our lone victory the result of Smart leading the charge at PG). Next year we lose Kyrie and magically become a tough playoff team with Rozier and Smart running the show. Then we get Kyrie back and flameout.

It's not just us either. Lillard gets worshipped in Portland and he has some amazing heroics for sure, but I watched that same team get obliterated by the Pelicans in the same way we almost got swept by the Bulls.

Everyone wants to take advantage of the rule and style changes that make it possible for quick bomber guards to dominate games, but doing so has elevated a lot of one-trick ponies to the superstar stage where their teams then collapse when their one trick isn't enough.

Other than Kyrie playing the Robin to LBJ's Batman, it hasn't worked.

Once IT got to the level of Kyrie and Kemba, he had the injury and coudn't play in the ECF. The next playoffs, Kyrie was out. These past playoffs, the team was a mess internally and Kyrie clearly didn't care. Your argument would only work if IT and Kyrie hadn't gotten hurt, and we played that out and it didn't work. Otherwise, your data does not prove "it hasn't worked".

How about letting Kemba get plugged in and see how much better we can really be?

[FlatearthZorro]

The nba media and nba executives live Kemba on Celtics and think Boston is decent. With no center, projections are this Celtics team at 49 wins. I expect Tatum and Hayward to explode this year however.


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We need a center who can defend and give you 7-8 boards. Dedmon would be decent. We may need a bruiser for Embiid as well. Dude will feast on us this year without Horford and Baynes.

[celticfan42487]

Very reasonable thought. But the same thing happened for IT and Kyrie and it didn't amount to much.

The problem with Kemba and Kyrie and IT playing to their best is that it makes everyone else secondary and it doesn't really take the team anywhere special.

We've seen this for several years now. The first two IT year we get bounced in the first round. Then IT puts up near 30 a game, gets MVP hype and we were on the verge of getting swept by the Bulls in the first round until Rondo got hurt. Then we barely survive against a middling Wizards team and get obliterated by the Cavs (with our lone victory the result of Smart leading the charge at PG). Next year we lose Kyrie and magically become a tough playoff team with Rozier and Smart running the show. Then we get Kyrie back and flameout.

It's not just us either. Lillard gets worshipped in Portland and he has some amazing heroics for sure, but I watched that same team get obliterated by the Pelicans in the same way we almost got swept by the Bulls.

Everyone wants to take advantage of the rule and style changes that make it possible for quick bomber guards to dominate games, but doing so has elevated a lot of one-trick ponies to the superstar stage where their teams then collapse when their one trick isn't enough.

Other than Kyrie playing the Robin to LBJ's Batman, it hasn't worked.

Steph says hi. Not that it helps us because Kemba isn't Steph but your last sentence isn't really accurate. I think our biggest problem these last 4 year has been lack of big men talent. With Horford leaving that problem has gotten worse. Ainge has some serious work to do.

Steph is a very good passer and a good defender. He's very different from the IT/Kemba/Lillard/Irving group, none of whom play D (though Kyrie was occasionally capable with his size and strength) and none of whom are all that good as floor generals.

He's also incomparably, generationally good at scoring. The other 4 are great at it, but not particularly close.

I think this can't be stated enough.

Curry is at least 15 tiers above Kemba and Kyrie.

Curry IS a decent defender. Potentially even good due to his size.

He's a great rebounder

He's a great playmaker (which Kemba and Irving are *** at)

And he's a GOD mode level scorer. Kyrie and Kemba are just your typical very good scorers.

Curry is an amazing leader, and doesn't bat an eye at taking a back seat to KD. Doesn't complain and call for shots when he has yet to win a Finals MVP. His teammates and coaches ALL love him top to bottom. And everyone rallies around him because he makes everyone else on the team better as well as he's just an amazing leader with otherworldly charisma (Lillard and Kemba and IT had this too, just not to this extent. They all had their own egos about getting their shots).

None of them anywhere, ANYWHERE, close to Curry as a player.

[Ben-N1ce]

I don't know why people overcomplicate things.. Kemba Kyrie and Dame are as close to the same tier as possible. It's how the heck do you replace Al is the question.

[jfs1000d]

Kemba vs Kyrie offensive package -- Less isos. More drives to the basket. Gets to the line more often. Less midrange.
TBD under Brad's system and w/ better teammates -- Overall efficiency. Assist rate. Offball game.

I think this is a bit of a stretch. To the point I don't think a single one of those is actually a factual statement.

Or the difference is immaterial. Irving's key play is a layup with English, Kemba's key play is a step back long 2.

Irving career stats: 22 ppg 6 aspg 3.6rpg 1 steal. 46.5%fg 39% 3 87.5%FT. 4.4 FTA per game
Kemba career stats: 20 ppg 5.5 aspg 3.8rpg 1 steal. 42%fg 35.5%3 83.5%FT. 4.7 FTA per game

On court Kemba is just a straight up worse player and always has been.

He's still an great signing, but let's not act like he's IT (which this team desperately needs a IT and someone getting 8FTApergame would open up all of our other players game) and will suddenly be the endless driving to the basket kick out of 3 player that will ignite our entire teams game in an MVP way.

Kemba is a lesser Irving on the court. But a much superior off-court leader, and an ironman.

I do t want career stats.

Last three years. Kemba is a different player now than when he came into the league.



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[zoyathedestroya]

Kemba vs Kyrie offensive package -- Less isos. More drives to the basket. Gets to the line more often. Less midrange.
TBD under Brad's system and w/ better teammates -- Overall efficiency. Assist rate. Offball game.

I think this is a bit of a stretch. To the point I don't think a single one of those is actually a factual statement.

Or the difference is immaterial. Irving's key play is a layup with English, Kemba's key play is a step back long 2.

Irving career stats: 22 ppg 6 aspg 3.6rpg 1 steal. 46.5%fg 39% 3 87.5%FT. 4.4 FTA per game
Kemba career stats: 20 ppg 5.5 aspg 3.8rpg 1 steal. 42%fg 35.5%3 83.5%FT. 4.7 FTA per game

On court Kemba is just a straight up worse player and always has been.

He's still an great signing, but let's not act like he's IT (which this team desperately needs a IT and someone getting 8FTApergame would open up all of our other players game) and will suddenly be the endless driving to the basket kick out of 3 player that will ignite our entire teams game in an MVP way.

Kemba is a lesser Irving on the court. But a much superior off-court leader, and an ironman.

I do t want career stats.

Last three years. Kemba is a different player now than when he came into the league.



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Yep, I'd do last 4 but nba database only allows single year data lookup for their tracking stats.
And even then, it would be unfair to Kemba since he's never played with someone on the level of a Lebron or played under Brad.