Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread

[djFan71]

From looking at how Spotrac has accounted for the trade as it currently stands Boston was able to make the deal without renouncing Morris. I am thinking that Boston was able to get under the cap by a couple of million more than Rozier's salary and aggregate it with Baynes outgoing salary in the deal with PHX. Rozier at 18.4 and Baynes at 5.4 creates enough salary to take back 29.85 mil so they would need another 3 mil in cap space.

Or send out Yabu.
With no Morris hold and the combined cap/salaries, that's enough to also take back MKG in a salary dump for CHA and get us another tradeable salary come deadline. Maybe a minor asset from them, maybe not.

[sully00]

From looking at how Spotrac has accounted for the trade as it currently stands Boston was able to make the deal without renouncing Morris. I am thinking that Boston was able to get under the cap by a couple of million more than Rozier's salary and aggregate it with Baynes outgoing salary in the deal with PHX. Rozier at 18.4 and Baynes at 5.4 creates enough salary to take back 29.85 mil so they would need another 3 mil in cap space.

Or send out Yabu.
With no Morris hold and the combined cap/salaries, that's enough to also take back MKG in a salary dump for CHA and get us another tradeable salary come deadline. Maybe a minor asset from them, maybe not.

Taking on Yabu costs money I don't have the numbers in front of me but how far could Boston have gotten under with just renouncing Irving and Horford?

[Fencer reregistered]

I am not all in on the details of your discussion boys but if the question is can you use cap space to take on partial salary in a trade yes you can. That is what cap space is for.

Just to make sure we're talking the same thing. The basic scenario with fake/easier #s:

You're $10M below cap.
You want to acquire players that require at least $20M outgoing salary to match (with above cap rules).
You want to send out players totaling $10M.

Can you combine that remaining $10M cap space with the outgoing $10M salary to satisfy the $20M match? Knowing that you end up OVER the cap when the trade is complete. If you end up under still, it's a no brainer. But with going over, is it legal to combine cap space & players to meet the outgoing salary requirements?

Yes teams do it all the time. What complicates it is the signing of new contracts because S&T have their own rules.

Look at this way you can use cap space how ever you want to to acquire salary. When you make a trade you are acquiring salary not matching salaries. So the first 10 mil is your cap space and then you send out 10 mil in salary to create the space to take on 20 mil. By trading your 10 mil dollar player you basically adding to your cap space.

Because you end up over the cap at the end of the trade you can also use the Traded Player Exception and since both teams should be under the lux tax after the trade you can use the non tax payer rules not important for Kemba but could be useful with the other pieces you try to move.

Do you have any examples? Because I'm on the side that says it isnt possible. You can't go over the cap without using one of the many exceptions to cap rules, and I can't think of any exceptions that match that scenario.

Now, you could trade for a $10 million player, wait two months or whatever the cooling off period currently is, and then send two $10 million players out for a $20 million one, or even a $25 million one. But the specific scenario suggested would not, I believe, work.

[djFan71]

Just to make sure we're talking the same thing. The basic scenario with fake/easier #s:

You're $10M below cap.
You want to acquire players that require at least $20M outgoing salary to match (with above cap rules).
You want to send out players totaling $10M.

Can you combine that remaining $10M cap space with the outgoing $10M salary to satisfy the $20M match? Knowing that you end up OVER the cap when the trade is complete. If you end up under still, it's a no brainer. But with going over, is it legal to combine cap space & players to meet the outgoing salary requirements?

Yes teams do it all the time. What complicates it is the signing of new contracts because S&T have their own rules.

Look at this way you can use cap space how ever you want to to acquire salary. When you make a trade you are acquiring salary not matching salaries. So the first 10 mil is your cap space and then you send out 10 mil in salary to create the space to take on 20 mil. By trading your 10 mil dollar player you basically adding to your cap space.

Because you end up over the cap at the end of the trade you can also use the Traded Player Exception and since both teams should be under the lux tax after the trade you can use the non tax payer rules not important for Kemba but could be useful with the other pieces you try to move.

Do you have any examples? Because I'm on the side that says it isnt possible. You can't go over the cap without using one of the many exceptions to cap rules, and I can't think of any exceptions that match that scenario.

Now, you could trade for a $10 million player, wait two months or whatever the cooling off period currently is, and then send two $10 million players out for a $20 million one, or even a $25 million one. But the specific scenario suggested would not, I believe, work.

I think the TPE covers it. It's not just the credit.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q87

In the above example, following the initial trade of the $2 million player for the $1 million player, it was like the team had a $1 million "credit" which was good for one year2, with which they could acquire salaries without having to send out salaries to match. As with simultaneous trades, teams are allowed to acquire an extra $100,000 -- so a $1 million credit can be used to acquire $1.1 million in salaries. This credit is often referred to as a Traded Player exception or a trade exception, but be aware that the CBA uses the name "Traded Player exception" to refer to the entire exception which allows teams to make trades above the salary cap (including both simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades). In this document "Traded Player exception" is used to refer to the exception, and "trade exception" is used to refer to the one-year credit.

[zoyathedestroya]

From looking at how Spotrac has accounted for the trade as it currently stands Boston was able to make the deal without renouncing Morris. I am thinking that Boston was able to get under the cap by a couple of million more than Rozier's salary and aggregate it with Baynes outgoing salary in the deal with PHX. Rozier at 18.4 and Baynes at 5.4 creates enough salary to take back 29.85 mil so they would need another 3 mil in cap space.

Or send out Yabu.
With no Morris hold and the combined cap/salaries, that's enough to also take back MKG in a salary dump for CHA and get us another tradeable salary come deadline. Maybe a minor asset from them, maybe not.

Taking on Yabu costs money I don't have the numbers in front of me but how far could Boston have gotten under with just renouncing Irving and Horford?

$15.75M. I left cap holds of Morris, Rozier, and Theis.

[sully00]

Or send out Yabu.
With no Morris hold and the combined cap/salaries, that's enough to also take back MKG in a salary dump for CHA and get us another tradeable salary come deadline. Maybe a minor asset from them, maybe not.

Taking on Yabu costs money I don't have the numbers in front of me but how far could Boston have gotten under with just renouncing Irving and Horford?

$15.75M. I left cap holds of Morris, Rozier, and Theis.

What was Rozier's cap hold 4.3 mil? That isn't enough.

[zoyathedestroya]

Taking on Yabu costs money I don't have the numbers in front of me but how far could Boston have gotten under with just renouncing Irving and Horford?

$15.75M. I left cap holds of Morris, Rozier, and Theis.

What was Rozier's cap hold 4.3 mil? That isn't enough.

$9,151,170.00

[Fencer reregistered]

Yes teams do it all the time. What complicates it is the signing of new contracts because S&T have their own rules.

Look at this way you can use cap space how ever you want to to acquire salary. When you make a trade you are acquiring salary not matching salaries. So the first 10 mil is your cap space and then you send out 10 mil in salary to create the space to take on 20 mil. By trading your 10 mil dollar player you basically adding to your cap space.
If something wasn't legal under the rules for a simultaneous trade, it also isn't legal under the rules for a non-simultaneous one. So the previous section to the one you linked suffices. And I didn't see anything in there about being allowed to take a lot more salary in than you send out in a deal that ends up with you over the cap.

What do you think I am missing?

Because you end up over the cap at the end of the trade you can also use the Traded Player Exception and since both teams should be under the lux tax after the trade you can use the non tax payer rules not important for Kemba but could be useful with the other pieces you try to move.

Do you have any examples? Because I'm on the side that says it isnt possible. You can't go over the cap without using one of the many exceptions to cap rules, and I can't think of any exceptions that match that scenario.

Now, you could trade for a $10 million player, wait two months or whatever the cooling off period currently is, and then send two $10 million players out for a $20 million one, or even a $25 million one. But the specific scenario suggested would not, I believe, work.

I think the TPE covers it. It's not just the credit.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q87

In the above example, following the initial trade of the $2 million player for the $1 million player, it was like the team had a $1 million "credit" which was good for one year2, with which they could acquire salaries without having to send out salaries to match. As with simultaneous trades, teams are allowed to acquire an extra $100,000 -- so a $1 million credit can be used to acquire $1.1 million in salaries. This credit is often referred to as a Traded Player exception or a trade exception, but be aware that the CBA uses the name "Traded Player exception" to refer to the entire exception which allows teams to make trades above the salary cap (including both simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades). In this document "Traded Player exception" is used to refer to the exception, and "trade exception" is used to refer to the one-year credit.

[djFan71]

From looking at how Spotrac has accounted for the trade as it currently stands Boston was able to make the deal without renouncing Morris. I am thinking that Boston was able to get under the cap by a couple of million more than Rozier's salary and aggregate it with Baynes outgoing salary in the deal with PHX. Rozier at 18.4 and Baynes at 5.4 creates enough salary to take back 29.85 mil so they would need another 3 mil in cap space.

Or send out Yabu.
With no Morris hold and the combined cap/salaries, that's enough to also take back MKG in a salary dump for CHA and get us another tradeable salary come deadline. Maybe a minor asset from them, maybe not.

Taking on Yabu costs money I don't have the numbers in front of me but how far could Boston have gotten under with just renouncing Irving and Horford?

My scenario is.
Renounce everyone but Rozier and Theis: $19.6M free
Sign Terry/remove hold: $10.3M

3 team with PHO/CHA we take back Kemba and MKG: $45.7M total. need to send out $36.5M.
Send out Baynes, Rozier, Yabu => $27.0M.
Use $9.5M of the cap space to make it legit.

CHA does it because even tho they take back Yabu, they send out MKG and save an extra $10M on a guy who fell out of their rotation.

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

Do you have any examples? Because I'm on the side that says it isnt possible. You can't go over the cap without using one of the many exceptions to cap rules, and I can't think of any exceptions that match that scenario.

Now, you could trade for a $10 million player, wait two months or whatever the cooling off period currently is, and then send two $10 million players out for a $20 million one, or even a $25 million one. But the specific scenario suggested would not, I believe, work.

I think the TPE covers it. It's not just the credit.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q87

In the above example, following the initial trade of the $2 million player for the $1 million player, it was like the team had a $1 million "credit" which was good for one year2, with which they could acquire salaries without having to send out salaries to match. As with simultaneous trades, teams are allowed to acquire an extra $100,000 -- so a $1 million credit can be used to acquire $1.1 million in salaries. This credit is often referred to as a Traded Player exception or a trade exception, but be aware that the CBA uses the name "Traded Player exception" to refer to the entire exception which allows teams to make trades above the salary cap (including both simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades). In this document "Traded Player exception" is used to refer to the exception, and "trade exception" is used to refer to the one-year credit.

Did you reply something? Might have gotten lost.

[Fencer reregistered]

Did you reply something? Might have gotten lost.

Sorry. My point was:

-- The section you linked was off-by-one, because it focused on the distinction between simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades. In fact, no arithmetic works in non-simultaneous trades that doesn't also work in simultaneous ones. So the immediately previous section was what mattered.
-- Nothing in that section that I could see supported your point. Absent a special case like a pre-existing TPE, you can't do a trade that ends up with you over the cap unless the salary match is close enough.

[djFan71]

Did you reply something? Might have gotten lost.

Sorry. My point was:

-- The section you linked was off-by-one, because it focused on the distinction between simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades. In fact, no arithmetic works in non-simultaneous trades that doesn't also work in simultaneous ones. So the immediately previous section was what mattered.
-- Nothing in that section that I could see supported your point. Absent a special case like a pre-existing TPE, you can't do a trade that ends up with you over the cap unless the salary match is close enough.

It's kinda scattered over several questions is the problem. But a TPE is generated in every trade over the cap to allow the matching with 125% - 100k. The weird thing about this scenario is you're using cap space + outgoing salary to get within the limits. I can't 100% point to a clause saying that's cool, but from reading a bunch of questions, and taking sully's input, I feel like it is. But, I would love to have it say it somewhere specifically to erase all my doubt.

[Fencer reregistered]

Did you reply something? Might have gotten lost.

Sorry. My point was:

-- The section you linked was off-by-one, because it focused on the distinction between simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades. In fact, no arithmetic works in non-simultaneous trades that doesn't also work in simultaneous ones. So the immediately previous section was what mattered.
-- Nothing in that section that I could see supported your point. Absent a special case like a pre-existing TPE, you can't do a trade that ends up with you over the cap unless the salary match is close enough.

It's kinda scattered over several questions is the problem. But a TPE is generated in every trade over the cap to allow the matching with 125% - 100k. The weird thing about this scenario is you're using cap space + outgoing salary to get within the limits. I can't 100% point to a clause saying that's cool, but from reading a bunch of questions, and taking sully's input, I feel like it is. But, I would love to have it say it somewhere specifically to erase all my doubt.

I don't think a TPE in the usual sense is ever generated by a trade that isn't legal in the first place. An illegal trade can't happen at all, so in particular it can't generate a TPE.

[djFan71]

Sorry. My point was:

-- The section you linked was off-by-one, because it focused on the distinction between simultaneous and non-simultaneous trades. In fact, no arithmetic works in non-simultaneous trades that doesn't also work in simultaneous ones. So the immediately previous section was what mattered.
-- Nothing in that section that I could see supported your point. Absent a special case like a pre-existing TPE, you can't do a trade that ends up with you over the cap unless the salary match is close enough.

It's kinda scattered over several questions is the problem. But a TPE is generated in every trade over the cap to allow the matching with 125% - 100k. The weird thing about this scenario is you're using cap space + outgoing salary to get within the limits. I can't 100% point to a clause saying that's cool, but from reading a bunch of questions, and taking sully's input, I feel like it is. But, I would love to have it say it somewhere specifically to erase all my doubt.

I don't think a TPE in the usual sense is ever generated by a trade that isn't legal in the first place. An illegal trade can't happen at all, so in particular it can't generate a TPE.

No, that's why I highlighted that part of the original FAQ question. The common usage of the term TPE is just the left over salary when you send out more than you take back. But a TPE in the full sense of it IS created in each scenario where the salaries don't match over the cap - the traded player exception, ie TPE, is what allows it to be legal and happen if the salaries are within the 125%/100k and you end up over the cap after the trade.

The only weird part of the scenario here is that it's not just salary being with 125%. It's remaining cap + outgoing salary being within that.

[ThirtyFour]

If Danny was planning some massive intricate trade, are The players we just drafted tradeable at this point, or is there a waiting period. I’m very confused about what current assets are tradable vs not at this point.

[djFan71]

If Danny was planning some massive intricate trade, are The players we just drafted tradeable at this point, or is there a waiting period. I’m very confused about what current assets are tradable vs not at this point.

It depends...
We can include the unsigned draftees as just "draft rights", but they count as no salary.
If you want the draftees salary to count, you have to sign them and wait 30 days.
For FA like Kanter & Poirier, I don't think we can trade them for X days either, but not sure what X is off hand.

We also still have Baynes since the PHO trade isn't complete.
And Terry, Morris and Theis' cap holds.

We won't sign Theis til all the over moves are done and we're at/over the cap, so he can't be included in any trade that happens before Kemba is acquired.

[Fencer reregistered]

It's kinda scattered over several questions is the problem. But a TPE is generated in every trade over the cap to allow the matching with 125% - 100k. The weird thing about this scenario is you're using cap space + outgoing salary to get within the limits. I can't 100% point to a clause saying that's cool, but from reading a bunch of questions, and taking sully's input, I feel like it is. But, I would love to have it say it somewhere specifically to erase all my doubt.

I don't think a TPE in the usual sense is ever generated by a trade that isn't legal in the first place. An illegal trade can't happen at all, so in particular it can't generate a TPE.

No, that's why I highlighted that part of the original FAQ question. The common usage of the term TPE is just the left over salary when you send out more than you take back. But a TPE in the full sense of it IS created in each scenario where the salaries don't match over the cap - the traded player exception, ie TPE, is what allows it to be legal and happen if the salaries are within the 125%/100k and you end up over the cap after the trade.

The only weird part of the scenario here is that it's not just salary being with 125%. It's remaining cap + outgoing salary being within that.

OK. But the rules still say that you can't use the full salary of a sign-and-trade to make the numbers work in the case of a big raise like Rozier's, if the deal winds up with you being over the cap. And in any other case than a sign-and-trade, there's a substantial delay between the time you sign a guy and the time you're allowed to trade him.

[ThirtyFour]

If Danny was planning some massive intricate trade, are The players we just drafted tradeable at this point, or is there a waiting period. I’m very confused about what current assets are tradable vs not at this point.

It depends...
We can include the unsigned draftees as just "draft rights", but they count as no salary.
If you want the draftees salary to count, you have to sign them and wait 30 days.
For FA like Kanter & Poirier, I don't think we can trade them for X days either, but not sure what X is off hand.

We also still have Baynes since the PHO trade isn't complete.
And Terry, Morris and Theis' cap holds.

We won't sign Theis til all the over moves are done and we're at/over the cap, so he can't be included in any trade that happens before Kemba is acquired.

Thank you! Is Wanamaker the same situation as Theis?

[djFan71]

I don't think a TPE in the usual sense is ever generated by a trade that isn't legal in the first place. An illegal trade can't happen at all, so in particular it can't generate a TPE.

No, that's why I highlighted that part of the original FAQ question. The common usage of the term TPE is just the left over salary when you send out more than you take back. But a TPE in the full sense of it IS created in each scenario where the salaries don't match over the cap - the traded player exception, ie TPE, is what allows it to be legal and happen if the salaries are within the 125%/100k and you end up over the cap after the trade.

The only weird part of the scenario here is that it's not just salary being with 125%. It's remaining cap + outgoing salary being within that.

OK. But the rules still say that you can't use the full salary of a sign-and-trade to make the numbers work in the case of a big raise like Rozier's, if the deal winds up with you being over the cap. And in any other case than a sign-and-trade, there's a substantial delay between the time you sign a guy and the time you're allowed to trade him.

Since Rozier is being signed under the cap, he won't be BYC (so counts full salary), and it should be cool to S&T even though we end up over the cap at the end of the trade is the thought process.

[djFan71]

If Danny was planning some massive intricate trade, are The players we just drafted tradeable at this point, or is there a waiting period. I’m very confused about what current assets are tradable vs not at this point.

It depends...
We can include the unsigned draftees as just "draft rights", but they count as no salary.
If you want the draftees salary to count, you have to sign them and wait 30 days.
For FA like Kanter & Poirier, I don't think we can trade them for X days either, but not sure what X is off hand.

We also still have Baynes since the PHO trade isn't complete.
And Terry, Morris and Theis' cap holds.

We won't sign Theis til all the over moves are done and we're at/over the cap, so he can't be included in any trade that happens before Kemba is acquired.

Thank you! Is Wanamaker the same situation as Theis?

We didn't extend the QO to Brad - since it was for more than he would get on the market (ie, vet min). If we want him, he'd just be a normal vet min signing. I don't think we have any more hold on him than any other team at this point.