Post-Game Notes: WAS 116, BOS 107 (2-3)

[Garbanzo]

We don't find a shooter/game changer and keep Smart.

Smart as the starting PG is such an issue. Teams will let him beat them, and fail. Meanwhile, our entitled super stars have to work twice as hard, and probably are indifferent.

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Rondo was running the point in his second year in the league, with no outside shot at all and no offensive game.
It was enough for a championship.

Last year - PJ Tucker played over 30 min a night and scord 4 (!) points a game in the suns series. Same as his stats in the playoffs.

Rondo had 3 deadly HOF offensive juggernauts around him. Tucker had arguably the best offensive scoring threat in the league alongside him. Neither lineup is similar to ours.

Are you kidding?
Is there a championship caliber team with no offensive powerhouse?

Anyway, how about Utah with Royce O'neale (7 ppg in 31 min last season, and 4 in 30 this year)

[itrsteve]

I don't know man nothing I've seen from Nesmith makes me think he should even sniff the starting line up. He had a pretty good stretch of a couple games last year where he looked promising but overall he's been pretty disappointing.

You can make a case for Schroeder starting over smart but in no way can you make the same case for Nesmith.

I'd argue that now is the time to tinker with rotations a little more. He's playing tight playoff rotations that doesn't make much sense to me five games into it.

[playa-hater]

Milwaukee was the #1 seed and favorites to end up in the Finals in 2019.
But they got bounced by Toronto.

The following season, Miami basically swept them in the semis.

It was only when the Bucks got rid of Bledsoe and went all in on Jrue that the Bucks were able to get to the Finals and win a championship.

Same thing with the Suns.
The Suns weren't even a playoff team in 2020.

In 2021 they made it to the Finals.
And the reason for that is the addition of a star PG, CP3.

A talented team with multiple star players can get away with having a PG like Derek Fisher.
But there's just no way a team can be a championship team if the starting PG is just shooting 25.5% from the field.

It's time to wake up.

Marcus Smart has only shot 40%, or better, once his entire NBA career!
This is Smart's 8th season.

If Ime or Brad doesn't have the guts to do something about Smart, the Celts will become the Blazers of the east.

Udoka needs to limit Smart 28 minutes per game, off the bench.

Even better if Brad can package Smart with some of the young players and draft picks for real starting Guard.

I don’t think Ime has it in him to play the right players for us to win. Steve Kerr did that. Benching David Lee, a former all nba, all star player still in his prime, for an up and coming Draymond Green. He knew that was the best for the team, disregarding if feeling would get hurt. After that, they took off as a team. Smart needs to go to the bench. He doesn’t need to play on closing minutes, if he is playing bad. Ime should have the guts to do that. I don’t care what he says after. All of that are cheap talks and no action. If we are losing despite a better roster, to weaker teams, then there is a problem with lineups and rotations. Try sonething different.

Only 5 games but damn sure looks like THIS ^ is correct.. I don't want to hear a coach "talk tough" (Though it is more than Stevens ever did) I want to see it in his actions..

I don't have much associations with NBA coaches. But do have a lifetime of experience with college and HS.. I will tell you this, there are coaches who can build or absolutely destroy a young players confidence.

What message does Ime send to PP and Nesmith when the "veterans" can be continually bad, yet they can't play (much or at all)

I don't know how many on here played college ball. But the pressure that comes from sitting, then come in and make your shots quickly or you get pulled or benched can be insurmountable.

Again, without trying to sound like a broken record. I haven't seen anything, early on, that makes Ime resemble a potentially good coach. Hope I am wrong.

Prove me wrong Ime!!

[playa-hater]

i don't understand pritchard getting dnp'd. smart is not good enough to where pritchard shouldn't play at all.

amen to this.

[playa-hater]

Smart stars
7-4-4 25% shooting

Dennis schroder
16-4-6 40% shooting.

I'm sure some people will pull some advanced stats nonsense but looking at the difference between the two why would smart continue to start? If you have a guy that is a better shooter and equal rebounder and a better distributor why would you not start him considering how many times this team has a slow start?

You don't make this kind of choice with a guy signed longterm after 5 games.

That said - Schroder is much more effective at collapsing the defense than Smart and that's something we need.

Why not? Shouldn't you be doing what's best for the team? It's not like smart lit the world on fire last year when he started either. Smart simply isn't a starting point guard. The sooner the team realizes that the better they will be.

I'm sure the players like how hard smart plays but anyone who has ever played basketball on any level at all knows one of the most annoying teammates you can have is the guy who can't shoot constantly putting up shots.

`

You just described my number 1 BB pet peeve.

forgot to mention, many of those "annoying teammates" are left open for a reason. they can't freakin shoot.

[playa-hater]

Not for nothing but we did lose two scorers so that at least 30 points a game. Theres a lot of pressure on brown and tatum to produce every night and so far they haven’t been able to do that consistently. We need a bona fide shooting guard . I know Nesmith has been bad so far but at least he can shoot. I would consider starting him in the backcourt with Schroeder and bringing smart off the bench. Id also think about bringing Al off the bench and starting anothrr big like juanchonor bruno

I don't know man nothing I've seen from Nesmith makes me think he should even sniff the starting line up. He had a pretty good stretch of a couple games last year where he looked promising but overall he's been pretty disappointing.

You can make a case for Schroeder starting over smart but in no way can you make the same case for Nesmith.

Not saying there is a "case" for Nesmith starting.. but sometimes you can just roll the dice.. Using someone else's example, starting 2nd rd pick and undersized D Green over David Lee. Or I'll throw in starting a No NBA experience and undrafted player in Duncan Robinson in the very first NBA game of the season was a bold move that has paid huge dividends for Miami. There are more, but that's my point.

At the very minimum Nesmith has already shown a pretty decent sample size in many games late last year how good he can be at shooting + plus energy, NOT to be a regular in the rotation.

But definitely Smart needs to be back to a bench role. And DS deserves a steady look with the starters.

[The_Ghost_of_JB]

I don't know man nothing I've seen from Nesmith makes me think he should even sniff the starting line up. He had a pretty good stretch of a couple games last year where he looked promising but overall he's been pretty disappointing.

You can make a case for Schroeder starting over smart but in no way can you make the same case for Nesmith.

I'd argue that now is the time to tinker with rotations a little more. He's playing tight playoff rotations that doesn't make much sense to me five games into it.

I don't disagree about tinkering with the roster but maybe give Nesmith a few minutes off the bench to see if he can produce before he's thrown into the starting lineup.

[Hal14]

And yet Smart was the only Celtic to post a plus in the +/- (+3) I know that's' not popular right now and neither is this. I don't think Rob Williams plays hard enough. Always see him jogging up the floor instead of putting pressure off on a retreating defense, doesn't approach setting picks or getting into screen-n- rolls with enough force. And has been timid underneath failing to finish with force.

analytics can get you in trouble. I get that Smart was (+3) but the guy simply cannot be a starting PG. Where's Sherman Douglas when you need him

+/- is just the worst way to measure how well a player played. I could be wrong but I don't think missed shots have any bearing on it.

So a player could take 15 bad shots and miss them all and it won't affect his plus-minus rating at all.

+/- measures how well the team did during the minutes a player was on the court.

If a player takes 15 bad shots and misses them all, his team is going to be really bad during the mins he plays and obviously he will have a worse +/-.

+/- is a somewhat flawed stat, because to some extent the player is getting credit if all of a sudden the 4 other players on the court player really freaking good and that other player isn't really helping - or the player will have a bad +/- even though he played well but to no fault of his, the other 4 players played like crap.

So it's not the end all be all stat - no stat is. But advanced stats like +/-, VORP, PER, Win Shares, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, TS%, etc. are widely considered by basketball experts to be a better indicator of how good a player is than old school traditional stats like points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG%, etc.

[24istheLAW]

Read on Twitter

I think it's pretty easy to guess at. Tatum's strengths as a defender are mostly in the context of team defense - knowing when to help, anticipating when to close out shooters, etc. Under Brad, who put a lot on the team's plate defensively, that IQ mattered and was rewarded.

But in iso situations, particularly as a post defender against bigs, Tatum is ordinary. And that's what he's being asked to do under Ime.

[24istheLAW]

And yet Smart was the only Celtic to post a plus in the +/- (+3) I know that's' not popular right now and neither is this. I don't think Rob Williams plays hard enough. Always see him jogging up the floor instead of putting pressure off on a retreating defense, doesn't approach setting picks or getting into screen-n- rolls with enough force. And has been timid underneath failing to finish with force.

I agree about Rob Williams not playing with as much force as you'd like. But as has been noted on here, he'd only played more than 30 minutes once in his career before this season (Pelicans OT loss), and he was at 18 mpg last year. Now he's a 33 mpg player. And he's playing at a heavier weight, and seems to have lost some athleticism in the process. There's enough layers of adjustment with Rob that I think we can give him the benefit of the doubt for now. I'm more worried about Brown, Tatum and Smart showing lackadaisical tendencies at this point.

[Shak_Celts]

I don't know much, but these players better figure it out, POBO said a few times before games last season that the team didn't have their heads in it pregame. No one played well out of the gate except Al (had 3 days off). We can't go another full season of guys not coming out ready to bust ass! Sure, I'll be along for the ride, but it can't be good for the ticker! Last season probably aged a few of us who didn't give up.

[Green89]

You don't make this kind of choice with a guy signed longterm after 5 games.

That said - Schroder is much more effective at collapsing the defense than Smart and that's something we need.

Why not? Shouldn't you be doing what's best for the team? It's not like smart lit the world on fire last year when he started either. Smart simply isn't a starting point guard. The sooner the team realizes that the better they will be.

I'm sure the players like how hard smart plays but anyone who has ever played basketball on any level at all knows one of the most annoying teammates you can have is the guy who can't shoot constantly putting up shots.

`

You just described my number 1 BB pet peeve.

forgot to mention, many of those "annoying teammates" are left open for a reason. they can't freakin shoot.

Smart's our longest tenure player. Opposing coaches always know to have game plans to leave him open, and smother the rest of the team on offense. He had at least 2 missed shots in the 4th quarter, and they weren't necessarily bad ones, just we need others to take them. Otherwise, we're doing exactly what every opposing coach wants us to do.

[s1ickd]

It is well noted that Marcus Smart, out of 10 games, has 1 great performance, 4 OK performances, and 5 bad ones.

It is well noted that The Boston Celtics, out of 10 games, have 1 great performance, 4 OK performances, and 5 ones ones.

Marcus Smart is "The Leader" and "The Heart and Soul" of the Celtics.

Doesn't take much to see these parallels.

[FlatearthZorro]

i don't understand pritchard getting dnp'd. smart is not good enough to where pritchard shouldn't play at all.

Not only that, I really wish Pritch, Nesmith and Romeo all had a bigger role. Richardson signing is really baffling to me. He's not a bad player, just very similar to both Nesmith and Romeo and both of em have better potential than J-Rich. Maybe, I'm wrong, but it seems like it arrest their development.

[Half-Full]

Not enamored with Ime's line-ups/substitutions. A couple of things... The ball moves much better when Pritchard and Schroder are in together. The other night this lead to Grant getting some wide open threes (which he hit). Both penetrate better, and distribute the ball better, leading to scores. In addition, Pritchard can shoot. Nesmith too, for that matter. Yes, their percentages are down, but I expect they will revert to normal given the opportunity. Whatever happened to the stated objective of developing our young guys? Why has Kanter been glued to the bench? Last night Montrezl was killing us, and I don't think he would have had as easy a time against Kanter. Under Brad, Kanter played around 17 minutes/game, and averaged 8 pts and 7 rebounds. When he has gotten more minutes those numbers go up. Even though bigs have been causing us problems, Kanter sees no playing time. Play him! Yes, he has defensive limitations, and if those limitations result in more problems than are offset by his scoring/rebounding, sit him down. But, at least give him the opportunity to see what he can do.

[Hal14]

i don't understand pritchard getting dnp'd. smart is not good enough to where pritchard shouldn't play at all.

Not only that, I really wish Pritch, Nesmith and Romeo all had a bigger role. Richardson signing is really baffling to me. He's not a bad player, just very similar to both Nesmith and Romeo and both of em have better potential than J-Rich. Maybe, I'm wrong, but it seems like it arrest their development.

1) better potential? eh, IDK. Jrich averaged over 16 PPG recently on a good team while playing elite defense. You think Romeo/pritchard/nesmith could do that this season?

2) Romeo hasn't been able to stay healthy since entering the league and Nesmith had like 5 good games all year last season. Brad got Jrich to give his new head coach more of a fighting chance to win.

3) Sure, maybe long term. Like 3 years from now Pritchard/nesmith/langford could maybe be better, but Brad and Ime want to win now. They don't want to waste a year of Brown/Tatum in their prime by developing the young kids.

4) Brad also signed Jrich for depth. Because last season he say how hard we got hit by injuries/COVID and this season we have more back to backs on our schedule than any other team in the league. we'll need the depth. The young kids will get their chance.

[SichtingLives]

I don't really blame Jaylen or Tatum for not having leadership skills. I don't see where along their dysfunctional development paths in this organization they were supposed to develop them.

[Jaqua92]

Another game with the two bigs line up..
I dont care if smart or shroder start. Smart has been really bad, but he is not important enough. Or at least, shouldn't be important enough on offense.
Tatum has no advantages playing the 3, He is not faster then others playing this position, thus taking more contested shots and not assisting his teamates.
Horfie and TL clogg the paint on offense.
Also, we play switch defense - IF playing switch defense - don't play big! This is BASIC stuff.
With a team that has a lot of guards, and so many bigs, playing the two bigs line-up also destroy our balance and bench.
Also, horfie and tatum are same height, I just cant see the advantage.
Miami is playing 6'5 Tucker at power forward FCOL.

I started posting here only recently, but Im reading this forum for years. Yeah I was diasapointed with the team at times. They don't put in the effoer and focus consistently..
This is the only Celtics team ever that make me cringe, and not care at all about the game on the screen. Its like their "I don't care" attitude infects me through the screen. That has never happened. Not even in the Jiri Welsch years..
Brad's team last year came close. Kyrie's year were also frustrating. But not like what we are seeing now.

Starting line up should be
Shroder, Smart , Brown, Tatum, Horfie
This is not ideal bc of shooting. Id like Brad to find a shooter who is good enough to start
Then its:
Smart, a shooter, Brown, Tatum, Williams,
With Horfie and Shroder leading the second unit. That's ideal in my opinion.

Who knows?
Maybe Nesmith/Langford/Richardson can do that.
Nesmith is a good shooter, but not good enough all around. If Richardson can be an average shooter like he was im Miami, then our problems are solved.

We don't find a shooter/game changer and keep Smart.

Smart as the starting PG is such an issue. Teams will let him beat them, and fail. Meanwhile, our entitled super stars have to work twice as hard, and probably are indifferent.

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Rondo was running the point in his second year in the league, with no outside shot at all and no offensive game.
It was enough for a championship.

Last year - PJ Tucker played over 30 min a night and scord 4 (!) points a game in the suns series. Same as his stats in the playoffs.

Yikes. Rondo was an elite defender as a guard. Was a much much smarter player than Smart. Was not just a better passer, better playmaker, better ball handler, better driver, but he was elite. In all of those categories. Could he shoot? No. But 2nd year Rondo is a much much better player than Smart ever was.

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[Jaqua92]

Milwaukee was the #1 seed and favorites to end up in the Finals in 2019.
But they got bounced by Toronto.

The following season, Miami basically swept them in the semis.

It was only when the Bucks got rid of Bledsoe and went all in on Jrue that the Bucks were able to get to the Finals and win a championship.

Same thing with the Suns.
The Suns weren't even a playoff team in 2020.

In 2021 they made it to the Finals.
And the reason for that is the addition of a star PG, CP3.

A talented team with multiple star players can get away with having a PG like Derek Fisher.
But there's just no way a team can be a championship team if the starting PG is just shooting 25.5% from the field.

It's time to wake up.

Marcus Smart has only shot 40%, or better, once his entire NBA career!
This is Smart's 8th season.

If Ime or Brad doesn't have the guts to do something about Smart, the Celts will become the Blazers of the east.

Udoka needs to limit Smart 28 minutes per game, off the bench.

Even better if Brad can package Smart with some of the young players and draft picks for real starting Guard.

I've been saying it for years, and have been run off the board numerous times because of it. Smart holds the team back. He just does. The bigger role he has had, the more inconsistent the team is.

He is the anchor of this team. And not in a good way. The team wants to take off, but the sacred cow continues to weigh them down. And he's brainwashed the fanbase. And media at this point. It's embarassing.

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[Jaqua92]

I'm with you on Smart's shooting. Smitty noted in his recap that his current percentages make him unplayable and he's right.

But what's best for the team is not to demote the guy you just handed a four-year-deal based on a five-game sample size.

It's more than a five game sample size because smart also started a bunch of games last year. He's clearly a sixth man that fell into the starter roll because Walker was constantly hurt.

But if Ime wants to continue to start smart and give him 36 minutes a game because he doesn't want to hurt his feelings then I wouldn't expect much to change with this team struggles.

Yup. I agree. If IME is stubborn about Smart as starting PG his coaching career in Boston could be very short.

How do we know this isn't what Brad wants?

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