OT: Officer Crowley

[x34truth34x]

The problem is not the officer arriving on the scene. The problem is the officer arresting someone in their own house.

Not if your an a-hole. Crowley claims he warned Gates many times to lower his voice and just talk to him. Then Gates followed Crowley outside still screaming at him. Crowley then showed him his cuffs telling him to knock it off...again Gates continue to be a grade A douche bag. So he got arrested. That pompous ass got what he deserved.

Even if Crowley's story is true, Crowley should have just continued walking. There's no need to threaten the guy with arrest like that, it only escalates the situation. You don't calm an angry man by telling him you're going to take him to jail.

Really? Cause I'd like to think I would shut my mouth. This whole thing would have been avoided in Gates just answered the questions and gave him the ID.[/quote]

Yeah man gates should have just stopped being such an uppity negro and complied with all of the officer's wishes on his own property when the officer had his id!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone says the officer should have diffused the situation.

He did. He put cuffs on the only person that was acting out of line. And while swearing at and insulting an officer isn't exactly a crime, hindering a crime scene investigation must be. I wont go pull up a bunch of law.com definitions because my common sense serves well enough.

For everyone who thinks Gates was less wrong than the officer, then please for your own enlightenment go give any cop a verbal walloping and come back and post the results. The idea that cops are too quick to arrest for things like verbal abuse isn't the only issue here - Gates went beyond it by being so difficult and throwing a wrench into the investigation.

Stop with this argument. We've already established that the mass supreme court has ruled virtually the same as arizona's (which was quoted earlier). A cop being verbally "walloped" and it is not a crime unless they can be considered "fighting words" (and insulting someone's mother is not that)

Wow. what a post. You don't think a white guy would've been arrested for acting like a maniac? Serious racism? I don't doubt there is some closet racism, but to call it "serious" is a joke. It's not any worse or better than any other place.

How was professor gates acting like a maniac? Have any of you actually read this thread or are you all either police fanboys or so eager to dissuade made up "reverse racism" that you must just make things up?

[Celtics_Champs]

Like I was telling these guys at work who share the same notion as some of you, if you are anyone, black, white, green, whatever, you yell at a cop the way Gates supposedly did, you are gonna get your ass handed to you. I don't know anybody, never seen any tape, heard any audio, where someone does this, and gets off scott free. If this happens, please tell me the town, because I would like to go there.

[Fencer reregistered]

Like I was telling these guys at work who share the same notion as some of you, if you are anyone, black, white, green, whatever, you yell at a cop the way Gates supposedly did, you are gonna get your ass handed to you. I don't know anybody, never seen any tape, heard any audio, where someone does this, and gets off scott free. If this happens, please tell me the town, because I would like to go there.

How does that contradict what anybody else has posted?

[Celtics_Champs]

Like I was telling these guys at work who share the same notion as some of you, if you are anyone, black, white, green, whatever, you yell at a cop the way Gates supposedly did, you are gonna get your ass handed to you. I don't know anybody, never seen any tape, heard any audio, where someone does this, and gets off scott free. If this happens, please tell me the town, because I would like to go there.

How does that contradict what anybody else has posted?

I'm not gonna go through 10 pages, I was mostly skimming to begin with. I would rather have boston just wash their hands with this situation and end all of these NEWS 5 special reports on it. But from what I read here, some people seem to think that the cop is in the wrong and should have just walked away. I'm saying, no matter who you are, a cop is gonna come right back at you if you try and challenge him.

[sunshinekids99]

^Or if Crowley left peacefully once he learned that Gates did in fact own the house...

From my understanding Crowley left the house so he could actually find out who Gates was...all he had was the Harvard ID at that point. So he was calling it in so he went outside to do that, which Gates followed him outside and continued shouting at him. I just don't understand why Gates was so upset, he thinks he's above the law I guess. I don't see how anybody, let alone the President, can stand up for that piece of garbage.

[RondoWallace]

I have 2 black room mates i'm not racist..

GATES FORGOT HIS KEYS!!!! TRIED TO BREAK INTO HIS OWN APARTMENT INSTEAD OF CALLING OWNER... DUMB NEGRO MOVE..

Then cops show off and he start mouthing off. I've gotten arrested for disorderly conduct, for talking **** to a cop before and i'm white.

Cops have atitudes ok?? Crowley wasn't racist, in fact he made the arrest, but there were 2 other cops with him. One of them was black..

[sam_I_am]

I admit when I started thread I was pissed off when I heard Obama call the cop stupid and that definitely fanned the flames of the debate over this issue. A president should not malign those that defend the public without all the facts. Kudos to Obama for admitting his mistake and behaving in a conciliatory way last night.

Now that I have seen interviews and heard more I think it is obvious what happened.
Confident Harvard professor thinks he can mouth off to cop in his own house and starts monologuing at him instead of cooperating. Strong willed nice guy cop gets his ego ruffled and because he is a cop doesn't have to put up with it and arrests him. Given racial history of city which has thankfully improved tremendously this was an ill advised decision.

Two solid citizens getting into a chest pumping man thing. I think it is amazing that in general when nice guys cross the line they always go way too far. (See that on realgm all the time.)

People who say that this doesn't happen to white people believe so strongly in their doctrine that they are just wrong. I am white and I know if I mouth off to a cop I could get arrested and roughed up a bit. We can argue whether or not cops should use their power that way but some always have and some always will. Some people want to be cops for that very reason - because you don't have to take crap from people.

I had a friend who graduated #1 in her medical school who got pulled over and she had forgot to renew her plates so they impounded her car. When she mouthed off to cop because she needed to study or something she spent night in jail handcuffed to cell. No racism. Just a power trip by cop.

[sam_I_am]

.

[sam_I_am]

Stop with this argument. We've already established that the mass supreme court has ruled virtually the same as arizona's (which was quoted earlier). A cop being verbally "walloped" and it is not a crime unless they can be considered "fighting words" (and insulting someone's mother is not that)

And it is already established that Professor Gates was not charged with committing any crime. An officer can arrest somebody and bring them to court and if it is not a crime those charges will be dropped as they were.

[sam_I_am]

Some people can't say a bad things about cops. I don't care if you know someone who is a cop or have a family member, not all cops are excellent public servants. Some are "D##S. Good cops make mistakes, and looking at this in the most positive light, Crowley arrested the guy incorrectly.

Gates is probably an arrogant jerk. Crowley was probably on a power trip as beat cops tend to be. The DA dropped all the charges, which means, there was no crime there, which means...gates didn't do anything criminal and shouldn't have been arrested.

If the cop can't take being called names and insulted, don't be a cop. It comes with the territory.I don't give leeway to public servants. They are public employees and their salaries are paid from my tax money. Be a better cop. That's all I ask.

Gates is a jerk however.

Spot on great post.

[LongTimeFan]

The most amazing thing about this is the extent the incident has hurt the Obama presidency. His approval rating is 10 points below where Nixon's was 7 months in. Obama's sterotyping of the white cop hit a nerve.

I think people are beginning to wonder if he is president of all Americans or not.

[Banks2Pierce]

How was professor gates acting like a maniac? Have any of you actually read this thread or are you all either police fanboys or so eager to dissuade made up "reverse racism" that you must just make things up?

You really don't think he was acting like a maniac? The funny thing is I usually side with the civilians as many policemen have severe egos and they take it way too far, but Gates flipped his lid when he should've just remained calm. I've been woken up at 3 am by a cop for something ridiculous, but everyone knows you have to help them out and remain calm, or you can start a real problem.

And you might want to check up on that Rhode Island firefighters exam...

[goulardi]

If you think individuals of the branch of the government whos job is to protect and serve doesnt deserve basic human respect when hes doing his job, then you will have problems in your life.

Nobody here has argued that Crowley didn't deserve more respect than what he received from Gates. Nobody has argued that Gates was being civil and respectful and .

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am arguing that there was no cause to arrest Gates.

Gates is the civilian, yet he did not behave in a *civil* manner, i.e. to adhere to the norms of polite social intercourse.

Which, incidentally, is not by itself a crime. And even if it were a crime, failing to be polite is the type of crime where police shouldn't automatically resort to arrest at the first possibility. Making an arrest is an extreme action. Arrests should be reserved for situations where allowing someone to run free would make him a threat to society.

I don't think police need to "hold his hands", but they should be trained to deal with situations like this. We should hold our public servants to a high standard because they are being entrusted with special authorities. Police officers should be able to ignore non-threatening verbal abuse in most circumstances. They should be TRAINED to ignore non-threatening verbal abuse in most circumstances. They should not be arresting people for failing to show proper respect to authorities unless doing so could be dangerous.

I see it this way - kudos to the officers for making an example of a man who thought he could act out of line and get away with it.

Perhaps I am biased, being only half white myself, but I believe officers "making an example of" people like Gates (blacks and non-white Hispanics) at disproportionately high rates is a huge part of why we distrust the police so much in the first place. "Making an example of" Gates is likely to just make black men more distrustful of police, and more likely to abuse police officers.

He was arrested for disorderly conduct. And he should have been.

[goulardi]

Any officer who hesitates to do the appropriate thing because someone might view it racist is way too insecure for his job and will certainly end up defending himself for discrimination anyway by trying to walk on eggshells with every suspect he encounters.

The point is that arresting a man for being disrespectful wasn't "the appropriate thing".

The following is all true to the best of our knowledge:
a) The arrest occurred on Gates' property, after the police had already verified it was his property and were in the process of leaving.
b) Gates did not physically harm anyone or attempt to physically harm anyone.
c) The police officers did not see Gates as posing an obvious physical threat to themselves or to society as a whole.
d) Instead of ignoring the inconsequential confrontation, the officers decided to arrest Gates on a very minor charge that basically amounts to being a public nuisance.

In light of all that information, I don't see how an arrest was appropriate, regardless of Gates' race.

My last point was just about how police trying to "make an example of" people who show disrespect to them has contributed to racial tensions between police officers and people of color. "Making an example of" a black professor for disrespecting the police will only serve to hinder cooperation between black men and police by reinforcing racial tensions. It's not as if black men don't already believe police are willing to arrest them for any charge they can think of if the police feel as if they are not receiving enough respect.

Let's add one other point:
The black officer backing up Crowley is on record for saying Crowley acted appropriately.

[goulardi]

Anyone defending Gates in here is either
1. Never had to deal with similar situation. I had seen white people treated the same way for similar reasons.
2. Thinks just because Gates is black the officer should have been nice to him. Well that doesn't fly.

Except that nobody here has stated that white people aren't ever subjected to harsh treatment by the police, and nobody here has stated that the officer should have been nice to Gates because he is black. Gates immediately assumed mal-intent of the police officer and proceeded to mistreat him and act uncooperative, so the officer lured Gates out onto his front porch where he could legally make an arrest without a warrant based on a minor charge. The officer should not have arrested Gates because there was no real crime committed. Being rude to a police officer while standing on your front porch shouldn't get you arrested, no matter who you are.

It is a statistical fact that blacks are subjugated to disproportionately higher rates of incarceration than whites. Psychological studies on snap judgments generally show that police officers are more likely to assume a subject in a picture is holding a gun or breaking a law or making a threat when that subject is black. As a result, it is not exactly a huge leap to associate a police officer arresting a black man essentially for being extremely rude when talking back to him with the pattern of bias against blacks among law enforcement officers. But even assuming for a second the exact same thing would have happened if Gates had been white, I don't see how it looks much better that instead of just blacks, ANYONE can be arrested just for being rude on his or her front porch.

None of this vindicates Gates for the role he played in his own arrest. He was rude and uncooperative to police officers who were responding to a 911 call and just doing their jobs. But that doesn't suggest that the police were heroes.

And Crowley has stated he was trying to determine who the TWO people were at the house because the call indicated there were two. Gates wasn't answering his quetions. So, forget about Crowley's overreaction....Gates blew this way out of proportion.

[Fencer reregistered]

But from what I read here, some people seem to think that the cop is in the wrong and should have just walked away.

Me too.

I'm saying, no matter who you are, a cop is gonna come right back at you if you try and challenge him.

You're probably right that cops everywhere violate the law and the Constitution. But that still leaves them in the wrong.

[Fencer reregistered]

And it is already established that Professor Gates was not charged with committing any crime. An officer can arrest somebody and bring them to court and if it is not a crime those charges will be dropped as they were.

He was arrested because the cop was claiming he had committed a crime. Period. That's why there were charges to drop.

[goulardi]

I'm appalled at how many people -- not necessarily in this thread -- think the cop was following "proper procedure" by arresting Gates for a crime he did not commit.

What do you think he arrested him for?

[sam_I_am]

And it is already established that Professor Gates was not charged with committing any crime. An officer can arrest somebody and bring them to court and if it is not a crime those charges will be dropped as they were.

He was arrested because the cop was claiming he had committed a crime. Period. That's why there were charges to drop.

The police were called to the scene for an attempted burglary. Since starting this thread it has been reported that Gates' house was burglarized before and there were many recent in neighborhood - I don't know if that is true or not. But in any event, Officer Crowley was dispatched to investigate a possible burglary.

Officer Crowley arrested Professor Gates for disorderly conduct that was interfering with his investigation. It sounds like the investigation should have lasted 5 minutes and would have ended. However, for some crazy reason, Professor Gates automatically assumed he was in danger when officer asked him to step out and show ID. He then behaved in a way that led the officer to arrest him in order to complete what should have been a 5-10 minute ordeal. Due to arresting Professor Gates, it instead took 4 hours to complete an investigation that determined no crime was committed - not only in regards to possible burglary but also to disorderly conduct.

That is what happens in a fair state in a great country. There was no brutality. There was no real harm committed to Professor Gates by the officer. And he left the station with his rights and his record intact.

Was he embarrassed? Yes. Does he feel humiliated unfairly? Obviously so. Was he in part responsible for that because of paranoid and uncooperative behavior? Undeniably. Could Officer Crowley have handled this situation professionally and with more savvy to avoid this ridiculous incident? Without question.

But I still say no crime was committed. No charges were made. Both Crowley and Gates have hurt their own stellar reputation by behaving obnoxiously. Gates has potentially ruined all credibility he has as an expert on race with his behavior.

So the officer arrested Gates who did not commit a crime. That has to happen sometimes. No officer can do their job if they only arrest people who definitely committed a crime. In this instance, the officer felt the need to arrest in order to finish his investigation. And even if you think he was wrong to do so like the president, the officer simply made a decision. And our system allows for those decisions to be made and corrected later as happened in this case.

[Joyeuse]

He was arrested for disorderly conduct. And he should have been.

We've already discussed the Massachusetts courts' interpretation of disorderly conduct, and Gates being uncooperative, rude, and insulting to a police officer doesn't fall under the definition of disorderly conduct.

Let's add one other point:
The black officer backing up Crowley is on record for saying Crowley acted appropriately.

Are you sure you meant to respond to the quote you responded to?

Anyway, the black officer was there and saw it happen and refused to stop it, so if he said Crowley failed to act appropriately that would have been a strange incongruity. As far as I'm aware, all three of the police officers thought they were acting in an appropriate manner in arresting Gates. But according to the Massachusetts courts' interpretation of the law, they should not have arrested Gates because he did not commit any crime.

And Crowley has stated he was trying to determine who the TWO people were at the house because the call indicated there were two. Gates wasn't answering his quetions. So, forget about Crowley's overreaction....Gates blew this way out of proportion.

Gates made a bad choice in refusing to cooperate. On the other hand, he is the owner of the house. If he claims there is no wrongdoing going on and the police don't have a warrant, they can't actually arrest Gates for refusing to cooperate with them. Which is why they lured him out onto the porch so they could arrest him for disorderly conduct. Disorderly conduct in Massachusetts apparently applies only to "fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition for no legitimate purpose other than to cause public annoyance or alarm". Gates did not commit disorderly conduct under this definition, and there is not even an argument that he did. That is why the charges against him were dropped: he didn't commit a crime.