Celtics General Thread 2019-20, "Re-Start"

[Captain_Caveman]

I think a lot of you guys have it backwards. The problem isn't our bench or role players. The problem is a lack of elite talent. Starting next season, we have like $102m+ sunk into our top 4 players. Could be $120m the year after that. With four 20ppg scorers, plus another 20ppg from Smart/Kanter, scoring should never be a problem for this team. Yeah, we are young, but more than that, we lack elite talent.

Kemba and Hayward are completely mediocre for what we pay them, and Jaylen is about to be. Every non-Celtics fan in the world is perfectly aware of this, so why aren't we? For his part, Tatum is top 15 but not top 10, and that just isn't good enough in a league where a dollar is worth more than five quarters.

Unless Tatum makes a Giannis-level leap, this core won't get it done. No sense blaming our role players for that.

Not so sure about that. Celtics have arguably the best top 4 in the league. Kemba is an all-star and still one of the top point guards in the league when healthy. Tatum is a top 15 player who averaged 27/6/3 over the last 40 games of the year, playing like a borderline top 10 guy. Brown very well could be an all-star. Hayward gives you 17/6/4 on 50/39/84.

The problem is they have a whopping zero guys off the bench that are scoring and shooting threats. Just look at our top 9 guys. Smart is a great 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. Our top 7 is very good.

Then you have Wanamaker as 8th man who shouldn't even be in this league. There's a reason he spent 8 years in Europe. Semi as 9th man is a good defender and below average offensively.

Teams just aren't scared of anyone off the bench. That's the issue.

You'd take our top 4 over Kawhi/PG13? AD/LeBron? Curry/Klay/Dray? Giannis/3 guys from the YMCA?

How about no? How about hell **** no?

[themoneyteam2]

I think a lot of you guys have it backwards. The problem isn't our bench or role players. The problem is a lack of elite talent. Starting next season, we have like $102m+ sunk into our top 4 players. Could be $120m the year after that. With four 20ppg scorers, plus another 20ppg from Smart/Kanter, scoring should never be a problem for this team. Yeah, we are young, but more than that, we lack elite talent.

Kemba and Hayward are completely mediocre for what we pay them, and Jaylen is about to be. Every non-Celtics fan in the world is perfectly aware of this, so why aren't we? For his part, Tatum is top 15 but not top 10, and that just isn't good enough in a league where a dollar is worth more than five quarters.

Unless Tatum makes a Giannis-level leap, this core won't get it done. No sense blaming our role players for that.

Not so sure about that. Celtics have arguably the best top 4 in the league. Kemba is an all-star and still one of the top point guards in the league when healthy. Tatum is a top 15 player who averaged 27/6/3 over the last 40 games of the year, playing like a borderline top 10 guy. Brown very well could be an all-star. Hayward gives you 17/6/4 on 50/39/84.

The problem is they have a whopping zero guys off the bench that are scoring and shooting threats. Just look at our top 9 guys. Smart is a great 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. Our top 7 is very good.

Then you have Wanamaker as 8th man who shouldn't even be in this league. There's a reason he spent 8 years in Europe. Semi as 9th man is a good defender and below average offensively.

Teams just aren't scared of anyone off the bench. That's the issue.

You'd take our top 4 over Kawhi/PG13? AD/LeBron? Curry/Klay/Dray? Giannis/3 guys from the YMCA?

How about no? How about hell **** no?

I didn't say that...

I said the Celtics arguably have the best top 4 in the league. I would put them behind LAC for the TOP 4. Not just having the top two players lol. By top 4 I mean best players from 1-4. Lakers have the best duo in the league for example but Kuzma and Green as their 3rd and 4th best players for example is laughable, hence why the Clippers have a better top 4 than the Lakers...

Celtics:
Tatum - 23/7/3 on 45/40/81
Kemba - 21/4/5 on 43/38/86
Brown - 21/6/2 on 49/38/73
Hayward - 17/6/4 on 50/39/86

Bucks:
Giannis - 30/14/6 on 55/31/63
Middleton - 21/6/4 on 49/41/91
Bledsoe - 15/4/5 on 48/35/81
Lopez - 11/5/1 on 43/29/82

Lakers
LeBron - 25/8/10 on 50/35/70
AD - 27/9/3 on 51/34/85
Kuzma - 12/5/1 on 43/31/74
Danny Green? - 8/3/1 on 41/37/70

Clippers
Kawhi - 27/7/5 on 47/37/89
PG - 21/6/4 on 44/41/88
Lou - 19/3/6 on 41/36/86
Trezz - 19/7/2 on 58/0/66

Raptors
Siakam - 23/7/3 on 46/36/81
Lowry - 20/5/7 on 42/36/86
FVV - 18/4/6 on 41/40/86
Powell - 16/3/2 on 49/39/84

[Captain_Caveman]

Kemba and Hayward are completely mediocre for what we pay them, and Jaylen is about to be.

In a nutshell you would think this is true until you actually look at what the market dictates for free agents recently. Here is a list of the top contracts. You tell me what Hayward and Kemba should be paid. Kemba is still a top 25 player.

Klay Thompson: $35.6 million
Mike Conley: $34.5 million
Jimmy Butler: $33.4 million
Kemba Walker: $32.7 million
Gordon Hayward $34.18 milllion (Assuming he opts in)
Tobias Harris: $33.5 million
Khris Middleton: $33.05 million
Kevin Love: $31.3 million
Kyle Lowry: $30.0 million
Andrew Wiggins: $29.5 million
Kristaps Porzingis: $29.47 million
Jamal Murray: $29.25 million
D'Angelo Russell: $28.7 million
Otto Porter: $28.48 million
Demar DeRozan: $27.79 million
Al Horford: $27.6 million


If Tobias Harris is getting $33.5 million, how is Hayward mediocre for making $34.8 million when he's a better player than Tobias?

It's what the market dictates. Half the guys on that list shouldn't be making what they do but it's due to when they hit the open market. If washed Al Horford gets $27.6 million then I just don't understand how Kemba and Hayward getting $34 million is overpaying them lol.

Kemba is still an all-star for probably 2 more years. He also just hit the market when he was 3rd team all-NBA so of course he deserved the max. Hell, if Jamal Murray and D Lo make $29 million then I'm 100% sure Kemba is worth $4 more million per year than those guys lmao.

In a nutshell, the loss of league revenue due to COVID is going to rip our team's financial balls off and very likely make Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts absolutely horrible going forward. The only reason they are even playing these bubble games is because the league would lose hundreds of millions of revenue if this season doesn't get to 70 games. Even with that, there are going to to be massive, massive reductions in revenue over at least two seasons.

The league backloaded a lot of that 10-year TV contract in order to keep the cap rising in $6-7m annual increments. One of the few options going forward is to now pull some of that backloaded TV money forward in order to make up for what would be a $20-30m drop in salary cap next season and likely the year after as well. If that happens, they cap will likely stay relatively flat at ~$110m or so for nearly the entire duration of Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts. Those two guys alone would end up being roughly 50% of the salary cap, and that's before we max Tatum, liquidate Smart, and let Hayward walk for nothing.

Whatever the league ends up doing about the cap, people might want to get used to minimum salary guys like Wanamaker and non-lottery rookie scale players like Romeo and Grant Williams. With what we are paying our non-elite core, we can't afford anything else.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/06/21/report-nba-salary-cap-to-remain-roughly-flat-at-109-million-next-season/

[Captain_Caveman]

Not so sure about that. Celtics have arguably the best top 4 in the league. Kemba is an all-star and still one of the top point guards in the league when healthy. Tatum is a top 15 player who averaged 27/6/3 over the last 40 games of the year, playing like a borderline top 10 guy. Brown very well could be an all-star. Hayward gives you 17/6/4 on 50/39/84.

The problem is they have a whopping zero guys off the bench that are scoring and shooting threats. Just look at our top 9 guys. Smart is a great 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. Our top 7 is very good.

Then you have Wanamaker as 8th man who shouldn't even be in this league. There's a reason he spent 8 years in Europe. Semi as 9th man is a good defender and below average offensively.

Teams just aren't scared of anyone off the bench. That's the issue.

You'd take our top 4 over Kawhi/PG13? AD/LeBron? Curry/Klay/Dray? Giannis/3 guys from the YMCA?

How about no? How about hell **** no?

I didn't say that...

I said the Celtics arguably have the best top 4 in the league. I would put them behind LAC for the TOP 4. Not just having the top two players lol. By top 4 I mean best players from 1-4. Lakers have the best duo in the league for example but Kuzma and Green as their 3rd and 4th best players for example is laughable, hence why the Clippers have a better top 4 than the Lakers...

Celtics:
Tatum - 23/7/3 on 45/40/81
Kemba - 21/4/5 on 43/38/86
Brown - 21/6/2 on 49/38/73
Hayward - 17/6/4 on 50/39/86

Bucks:
Giannis - 30/14/6 on 55/31/63
Middleton - 21/6/4 on 49/41/91
Bledsoe - 15/4/5 on 48/35/81
Lopez - 11/5/1 on 43/29/82

Lakers
LeBron - 25/8/10 on 50/35/70
AD - 27/9/3 on 51/34/85
Kuzma - 12/5/1 on 43/31/74
Danny Green? - 8/3/1 on 41/37/70

Clippers
Kawhi - 27/7/5 on 47/37/89
PG - 21/6/4 on 44/41/88
Lou - 19/3/6 on 41/36/86
Trezz - 19/7/2 on 58/0/66

Raptors
Siakam - 23/7/3 on 46/36/81
Lowry - 20/5/7 on 42/36/86
FVV - 18/4/6 on 41/40/86
Powell - 16/3/2 on 49/39/84

Well, Giannis, Kawhi, Curry, and AD are better than our entire franchise combined, so we do not in fact have the best top 4.

What you are really saying is that we may have the best 4th best player in Jaylen. You might be right about that, but he's also among the most highly paid 4th best players in the league, so he kinda should be.

[djFan71]

Kemba and Hayward are completely mediocre for what we pay them, and Jaylen is about to be.

In a nutshell you would think this is true until you actually look at what the market dictates for free agents recently. Here is a list of the top contracts. You tell me what Hayward and Kemba should be paid. Kemba is still a top 25 player.

Klay Thompson: $35.6 million
Mike Conley: $34.5 million
Jimmy Butler: $33.4 million
Kemba Walker: $32.7 million
Gordon Hayward $34.18 milllion (Assuming he opts in)
Tobias Harris: $33.5 million
Khris Middleton: $33.05 million
Kevin Love: $31.3 million
Kyle Lowry: $30.0 million
Andrew Wiggins: $29.5 million
Kristaps Porzingis: $29.47 million
Jamal Murray: $29.25 million
D'Angelo Russell: $28.7 million
Otto Porter: $28.48 million
Demar DeRozan: $27.79 million
Al Horford: $27.6 million


If Tobias Harris is getting $33.5 million, how is Hayward mediocre for making $34.8 million when he's a better player than Tobias?

It's what the market dictates. Half the guys on that list shouldn't be making what they do but it's due to when they hit the open market. If washed Al Horford gets $27.6 million then I just don't understand how Kemba and Hayward getting $34 million is overpaying them lol.

Kemba is still an all-star for probably 2 more years. He also just hit the market when he was 3rd team all-NBA so of course he deserved the max. Hell, if Jamal Murray and D Lo make $29 million then I'm 100% sure Kemba is worth $4 more million per year than those guys lmao.

In a nutshell, the loss of league revenue due to COVID is going to rip our team's financial balls off and very likely make Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts absolutely horrible going forward. The only reason they are even playing these bubble games is because the league would lose hundreds of millions of revenue if this season doesn't get to 70 games. Even with that, there are going to to be massive, massive reductions in revenue over at least two seasons.

The league backloaded a lot of that 10-year TV contract in order to keep the cap rising in $6-7m annual increments. One of the few options going forward is to now pull some of that backloaded TV money forward in order to make up for what would be a $20-30m drop in salary cap next season and likely the year after as well. If that happens, they cap will likely stay relatively flat at ~$110m or so for nearly the entire duration of Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts. Those two guys alone would end up being roughly 50% of the salary cap, and that's before we max Tatum, liquidate Smart, and let Hayward walk for nothing.

Whatever the league ends up doing about the cap, people might want to get used to minimum salary guys like Wanamaker and non-lottery rookie scale players like Romeo and Grant Williams. With what we are paying our non-elite core, we can't afford anything else.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/06/21/report-nba-salary-cap-to-remain-roughly-flat-at-109-million-next-season/

Even taking COVID out, which just exacerbates things, this is pretty much why I was against Kemba this summer. In a vacuum, relative to peers, he's absolutely a max player. When we're already paying Hayward max, and knew big contracts for Brown & Tatum were coming, it didn't make sense. Unless he was a top 5-10 player and we could win titles by signing him. Which he isn't and we won't. Non truly elite max contracts are possibly my least favorite deals around - unless they're supporting an existing elite talent. But 2-3 top 15-50 guys is a nice conference finals at best type team.

Other than Tatum, we have no path at elite talent besides the draft. And I tend to agree Tatum tops out at best as top 10, not top 5, though I wouldn't mind being wrong. Kemba hurts our draft chances both by improving our record, and using cap space we could have rented for picks/players a, la MEM, last summer. I think his contract hurts more than Brown (who I've agreed with you is slightly overpaid, but necessary), esp with the lingering knee stuff.

[djFan71]

Basically, we chose:

Kemba and 2020 MIL (#30)

over

Baynes, 2019 (#24), Iggy, GSW protected 2024 (top 5, top 2 in '25, '26 unprotected). Somewhere ~ 12M in cap space in 2019 (can't remember the exact #).

We probably don't get cute and miss Clarke and settle for Grant last year. And the GSW pick is as everyone's getting old. Maybe GSW reloads and spends crazy money to stay good. Or they end up like the Knicks or pre-LeBron Lakers. Those are the shots at elite talent you want.

Even this year with Baynes/Iggy/$12M FA backing up Tatum/Brown/Hayward/Smart, I'm not sure we're significantly better or worse than we are with Kemba. With Theis/Wanamaker that's a solid 9 man group.

EDIT: Plus Romeo, 20 & 24.

[ajones9219]

I think a lot of you guys have it backwards. The problem isn't our bench or role players. The problem is a lack of elite talent. Starting next season, we have like $102m+ sunk into our top 4 players. Could be $120m the year after that. With four 20ppg scorers, plus another 20ppg from Smart/Kanter, scoring should never be a problem for this team. Yeah, we are young, but more than that, we lack elite talent.

Kemba and Hayward are completely mediocre for what we pay them, and Jaylen is about to be. Every non-Celtics fan in the world is perfectly aware of this, so why aren't we? For his part, Tatum is top 15 but not top 10, and that just isn't good enough in a league where a dollar is worth more than five quarters.

Unless Tatum makes a Giannis-level leap, this core won't get it done. No sense blaming our role players for that.

Not so sure about that. Celtics have arguably the best top 4 in the league. Kemba is an all-star and still one of the top point guards in the league when healthy. Tatum is a top 15 player who averaged 27/6/3 over the last 40 games of the year, playing like a borderline top 10 guy. Brown very well could be an all-star. Hayward gives you 17/6/4 on 50/39/84.

The problem is they have a whopping zero guys off the bench that are scoring and shooting threats. Just look at our top 9 guys. Smart is a great 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. Our top 7 is very good.

Then you have Wanamaker as 8th man who shouldn't even be in this league. There's a reason he spent 8 years in Europe. Semi as 9th man is a good defender and below average offensively.

Teams just aren't scared of anyone off the bench. That's the issue.

You'd take our top 4 over Kawhi/PG13? AD/LeBron? Curry/Klay/Dray? Giannis/3 guys from the YMCA?

How about no? How about hell **** no?

I mean I would.

[Captain_Caveman]

In a nutshell you would think this is true until you actually look at what the market dictates for free agents recently. Here is a list of the top contracts. You tell me what Hayward and Kemba should be paid. Kemba is still a top 25 player.

Klay Thompson: $35.6 million
Mike Conley: $34.5 million
Jimmy Butler: $33.4 million
Kemba Walker: $32.7 million
Gordon Hayward $34.18 milllion (Assuming he opts in)
Tobias Harris: $33.5 million
Khris Middleton: $33.05 million
Kevin Love: $31.3 million
Kyle Lowry: $30.0 million
Andrew Wiggins: $29.5 million
Kristaps Porzingis: $29.47 million
Jamal Murray: $29.25 million
D'Angelo Russell: $28.7 million
Otto Porter: $28.48 million
Demar DeRozan: $27.79 million
Al Horford: $27.6 million


If Tobias Harris is getting $33.5 million, how is Hayward mediocre for making $34.8 million when he's a better player than Tobias?

It's what the market dictates. Half the guys on that list shouldn't be making what they do but it's due to when they hit the open market. If washed Al Horford gets $27.6 million then I just don't understand how Kemba and Hayward getting $34 million is overpaying them lol.

Kemba is still an all-star for probably 2 more years. He also just hit the market when he was 3rd team all-NBA so of course he deserved the max. Hell, if Jamal Murray and D Lo make $29 million then I'm 100% sure Kemba is worth $4 more million per year than those guys lmao.

In a nutshell, the loss of league revenue due to COVID is going to rip our team's financial balls off and very likely make Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts absolutely horrible going forward. The only reason they are even playing these bubble games is because the league would lose hundreds of millions of revenue if this season doesn't get to 70 games. Even with that, there are going to to be massive, massive reductions in revenue over at least two seasons.

The league backloaded a lot of that 10-year TV contract in order to keep the cap rising in $6-7m annual increments. One of the few options going forward is to now pull some of that backloaded TV money forward in order to make up for what would be a $20-30m drop in salary cap next season and likely the year after as well. If that happens, they cap will likely stay relatively flat at ~$110m or so for nearly the entire duration of Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts. Those two guys alone would end up being roughly 50% of the salary cap, and that's before we max Tatum, liquidate Smart, and let Hayward walk for nothing.

Whatever the league ends up doing about the cap, people might want to get used to minimum salary guys like Wanamaker and non-lottery rookie scale players like Romeo and Grant Williams. With what we are paying our non-elite core, we can't afford anything else.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/06/21/report-nba-salary-cap-to-remain-roughly-flat-at-109-million-next-season/

Even taking COVID out, which just exacerbates things, this is pretty much why I was against Kemba this summer. In a vacuum, relative to peers, he's absolutely a max player. When we're already paying Hayward max, and knew big contracts for Brown & Tatum were coming, it didn't make sense. Unless he was a top 5-10 player and we could win titles by signing him. Which he isn't and we won't. Non truly elite max contracts are possibly my least favorite deals around - unless they're supporting an existing elite talent. But 2-3 top 15-50 guys is a nice conference finals at best type team.

Other than Tatum, we have no path at elite talent besides the draft. And I tend to agree Tatum tops out at best as top 10, not top 5, though I wouldn't mind being wrong. Kemba hurts our draft chances both by improving our record, and using cap space we could have rented for picks/players a, la MEM, last summer. I think his contract hurts more than Brown (who I've agreed with you is slightly overpaid, but necessary), esp with the lingering knee stuff.

Yeah, I mean... I understand how we got here, but we are still here. Ainge's rebuild was masterful in so many ways. I'd definitely have tanked harder to start, and maybe we end up with Embiid/Winslow instead of Smart/Rozier. But whatever. Good job, and as stated above by 31to6, we could have possibly even ended up with Morant and/or an unprotected lottery pick next year with better luck on the Kings/Grizz picks. Oh well.

The gist of it for me is that as recently as 13 months ago, we were super close to ending up with a core of AD/KD/Kyrie as the culmination of this rebuild. Didn't happen. Oh well, again.

Kemba a good enough rebound from that, but like Jaylen and Hayward, he's not really a max player (or near max player in Jaylen's case). You can compare contracts among other ordinary "stars" like Otto Porter and Tobias Harris who play for also-rans in the league and say they are technically worth it. But good luck winning a title this way.

[themoneyteam2]

Basically, we chose:

Kemba and 2020 MIL (#30)

over

Baynes, 2019 (#24), Iggy, GSW protected 2024 (top 5, top 2 in '25, '26 unprotected). Somewhere ~ 12M in cap space in 2019 (can't remember the exact #).

We probably don't get cute and miss Clarke and settle for Grant last year. And the GSW pick is as everyone's getting old. Maybe GSW reloads and spends crazy money to stay good. Or they end up like the Knicks or pre-LeBron Lakers. Those are the shots at elite talent you want.

Even this year with Baynes/Iggy/$12M FA backing up Tatum/Brown/Hayward/Smart, I'm not sure we're significantly better or worse than we are with Kemba. With Theis/Wanamaker that's a solid 9 man group.

EDIT: Plus Romeo, 20 & 24.

Wait what? How did Boston pass on getting Iggy and a GSW 2024 pick?

[djFan71]

Basically, we chose:

Kemba and 2020 MIL (#30)

over

Baynes, 2019 (#24), Iggy, GSW protected 2024 (top 5, top 2 in '25, '26 unprotected). Somewhere ~ 12M in cap space in 2019 (can't remember the exact #).

We probably don't get cute and miss Clarke and settle for Grant last year. And the GSW pick is as everyone's getting old. Maybe GSW reloads and spends crazy money to stay good. Or they end up like the Knicks or pre-LeBron Lakers. Those are the shots at elite talent you want.

Even this year with Baynes/Iggy/$12M FA backing up Tatum/Brown/Hayward/Smart, I'm not sure we're significantly better or worse than we are with Kemba. With Theis/Wanamaker that's a solid 9 man group.

EDIT: Plus Romeo, 20 & 24.

Wait what? How did Boston pass on getting Iggy and a GSW 2024 pick?

That's the deal MEM made to rent their cap space to GSW to absorb Russell.
We have tight connections with GSW ownership. And the still owe us for David Lee, lol, so we could have had that deal.

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

In a nutshell, the loss of league revenue due to COVID is going to rip our team's financial balls off and very likely make Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts absolutely horrible going forward. The only reason they are even playing these bubble games is because the league would lose hundreds of millions of revenue if this season doesn't get to 70 games. Even with that, there are going to to be massive, massive reductions in revenue over at least two seasons.

The league backloaded a lot of that 10-year TV contract in order to keep the cap rising in $6-7m annual increments. One of the few options going forward is to now pull some of that backloaded TV money forward in order to make up for what would be a $20-30m drop in salary cap next season and likely the year after as well. If that happens, they cap will likely stay relatively flat at ~$110m or so for nearly the entire duration of Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts. Those two guys alone would end up being roughly 50% of the salary cap, and that's before we max Tatum, liquidate Smart, and let Hayward walk for nothing.

Whatever the league ends up doing about the cap, people might want to get used to minimum salary guys like Wanamaker and non-lottery rookie scale players like Romeo and Grant Williams. With what we are paying our non-elite core, we can't afford anything else.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/06/21/report-nba-salary-cap-to-remain-roughly-flat-at-109-million-next-season/

Even taking COVID out, which just exacerbates things, this is pretty much why I was against Kemba this summer. In a vacuum, relative to peers, he's absolutely a max player. When we're already paying Hayward max, and knew big contracts for Brown & Tatum were coming, it didn't make sense. Unless he was a top 5-10 player and we could win titles by signing him. Which he isn't and we won't. Non truly elite max contracts are possibly my least favorite deals around - unless they're supporting an existing elite talent. But 2-3 top 15-50 guys is a nice conference finals at best type team.

Other than Tatum, we have no path at elite talent besides the draft. And I tend to agree Tatum tops out at best as top 10, not top 5, though I wouldn't mind being wrong. Kemba hurts our draft chances both by improving our record, and using cap space we could have rented for picks/players a, la MEM, last summer. I think his contract hurts more than Brown (who I've agreed with you is slightly overpaid, but necessary), esp with the lingering knee stuff.

Yeah, I mean... I understand how we got here, but we are still here. Ainge's rebuild was masterful in so many ways. I'd definitely have tanked harder to start, and maybe we end up with Embiid/Winslow instead of Smart/Rozier. But whatever. Good job, and as stated above by 31to6, we could have possibly even ended up with Morant and/or an unprotected lottery pick next year with better luck on the Kings/Grizz picks. Oh well.

The gist of it for me is that as recently as 13 months ago, we were super close to ending up with a core of AD/KD/Kyrie as the culmination of this rebuild. Didn't happen. Oh well, again.

Kemba a good enough rebound from that, but like Jaylen and Hayward, he's not really a max player (or near max player in Jaylen's case). You can compare contracts among other ordinary "stars" like Otto Porter and Tobias Harris who play for also-rans in the league and say they are technically worth it. But good luck winning a title this way.

Yep, I was on board with everything til last summer.
Then I was against pretty much every move. Didn't like our draft (though, I may be wrong with Romeo - starting to like glimpses). Kemba to me was a marketing / stay relevant move, not a win a move to help win titles. I would have thrown the keys to Smart, signed a vet backup PG caretaker along with Wanamaker/Hayward and stockpiled future picks/assets.

[keevsnick1]

I think a lot of you guys have it backwards. The problem isn't our bench or role players. The problem is a lack of elite talent. Starting next season, we have like $102m+ sunk into our top 4 players. Could be $120m the year after that. With four 20ppg scorers, plus another 20ppg from Smart/Kanter, scoring should never be a problem for this team. Yeah, we are young, but more than that, we lack elite talent.

Kemba and Hayward are completely mediocre for what we pay them, and Jaylen is about to be. Every non-Celtics fan in the world is perfectly aware of this, so why aren't we? For his part, Tatum is top 15 but not top 10, and that just isn't good enough in a league where a dollar is worth more than five quarters.

Unless Tatum makes a Giannis-level leap, this core won't get it done. No sense blaming our role players for that.

I haven't heard one serious NBA analyst say anything other worse than Jaylen is absolutely worth his upcoming contract following his play this season

We don't even know what the cap is, or if the league will do anything to address the impacts of COVID. But you should know that as it currently stands, his contract next year is a total catastrophe under a reduced cap. Ditto Kemba and Hayward.

Its just not man, its not even close. This is one of the worst takes I've seen on this board in a while. His contract literally can't be more than 25% of the cap, and even under that scenario there are numerous GM's who would make that offer to a 23 year old coming off a 20 ppg season at well above average efficiency and defensive play.

And his contract likely wont we 25% of the cap. Right now its looking like next season will likely feature a cap freeze at 109 million (with a larger percentage held in escrow to compensate for potential loses). Jaylen is slated to make 22.8 million next year which is 21% of the cap. This year that would make him the 49th highest player in the NBA, right between Galinari and Ibaka, at an age where you can expect at least modest improvement for another couple of seasons

I'm far more sympathetic to your Kemba and Hayward points, those guys are the the 13th and 15th highest paid players in the league this year, both have injury concerns, and both are probably entering their post prime period.

[Captain_Caveman]

I haven't heard one serious NBA analyst say anything other worse than Jaylen is absolutely worth his upcoming contract following his play this season

We don't even know what the cap is, or if the league will do anything to address the impacts of COVID. But you should know that as it currently stands, his contract next year is a total catastrophe under a reduced cap. Ditto Kemba and Hayward.

Its just not man, its not even close. This is one of the worst takes I've seen on this board in a while. His contract literally can't be more than 25% of the cap, and even under that scenario there are numerous GM's who would make that offer to a 23 year old coming off a 20 ppg season at well above average efficiency and defensive play.

And his contract likely wont we 25% of the cap. Right now its looking like next season will likely feature a cap freeze at 109 million (with a larger percentage held in escrow to compensate for potential loses). Jaylen is slated to make 22.8 million next year which is 21% of the cap.

I think you miss my point. When you give that kind of money to the likes of Kemba, Hayward, and Jaylen, you cannot win a title, and you certainly can't have a bench. If you want to hold up stats and compare them to other non-elite players on other non-elite teams, that's great. But that's what Kings fans do.

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't know what the path is to contention from here, but it sure as hell isn't in giving contracts like that out.

I get why we had to do it, but you guys are being mad homers on this. If Jaylen didn't play for us, you wouldn't even know his name.

[Jaqua92]

We don't even know what the cap is, or if the league will do anything to address the impacts of COVID. But you should know that as it currently stands, his contract next year is a total catastrophe under a reduced cap. Ditto Kemba and Hayward.

Its just not man, its not even close. This is one of the worst takes I've seen on this board in a while. His contract literally can't be more than 25% of the cap, and even under that scenario there are numerous GM's who would make that offer to a 23 year old coming off a 20 ppg season at well above average efficiency and defensive play.

And his contract likely wont we 25% of the cap. Right now its looking like next season will likely feature a cap freeze at 109 million (with a larger percentage held in escrow to compensate for potential loses). Jaylen is slated to make 22.8 million next year which is 21% of the cap.

I think you miss my point. When you give that kind of money to the likes of Kemba, Hayward, and Jaylen, you cannot win a title, and you certainly can't have a bench. If you want to hold up stats and compare them to other non-elite players on other non-elite teams, that's great. But that's what Kings fans do.

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't know what the path is to contention from here, but it sure as hell isn't in giving contracts like that out.

I get why we had to do it, but you guys are being mad homers on this. If Jaylen didn't play for us, you wouldn't even know his name.

The general population of this board is made up of homers. I'm the first to jump on that train. But even I can't support that opinion man. Brown has top 20-25 potential. If Tatum can break out eventually into that top 10 player, and a team of more supportive players are built around him, they have a chance. Hayward would have to take a pay cut. And we need a bit of luck. But I don't think we are THAT far off. Do I think this roster as is can win a title in a few years? No.

But I'm imagining a team built around Tatum and Jaylen looks different.

If we are wrong about Tatum reaching top 10/all nba status, and Jaylen becoming a perinnial all-star, then okay. Too early in their timelines to make any major prediction imo. But I do see where you are coming from. This current teams talent level outside of Tatum is a bit overvalued.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Captain_Caveman]

Its just not man, its not even close. This is one of the worst takes I've seen on this board in a while. His contract literally can't be more than 25% of the cap, and even under that scenario there are numerous GM's who would make that offer to a 23 year old coming off a 20 ppg season at well above average efficiency and defensive play.

And his contract likely wont we 25% of the cap. Right now its looking like next season will likely feature a cap freeze at 109 million (with a larger percentage held in escrow to compensate for potential loses). Jaylen is slated to make 22.8 million next year which is 21% of the cap.

I think you miss my point. When you give that kind of money to the likes of Kemba, Hayward, and Jaylen, you cannot win a title, and you certainly can't have a bench. If you want to hold up stats and compare them to other non-elite players on other non-elite teams, that's great. But that's what Kings fans do.

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't know what the path is to contention from here, but it sure as hell isn't in giving contracts like that out.

I get why we had to do it, but you guys are being mad homers on this. If Jaylen didn't play for us, you wouldn't even know his name.

The general population of this board is made up of homers. I'm the first to jump on that train. But even I can't support that opinion man. Brown has top 20-25 potential. If Tatum can break out eventually into that top 10 player, and a team of more supportive players are built around him, they have a chance. Hayward would have to take a pay cut. And we need a bit of luck. But I don't think we are THAT far off. Do I think this roster as is can win a title in a few years? No.

But I'm imagining a team built around Tatum and Jaylen looks different.

If we are wrong about Tatum reaching top 10/all nba status, and Jaylen becoming a perinnial all-star, then okay. Too early in their timelines to make any major prediction imo. But I do see where you are coming from. This current teams talent level outside of Tatum is a bit overvalued.

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I'm not going to agree, but back to the original point, why do people think we can afford a better bench with the money we have slated to our top 4? Or for that matter, after the cap acrobatics we had to go through to be able to offer Kemba a max? I feel like those things are related somehow.

Back to the other original point, if our core is so great, why the big need for bench scoring from minimum-salary European league retreads like Wanamaker? Don't we have four 20ppg scorer types?

[keevsnick1]

We don't even know what the cap is, or if the league will do anything to address the impacts of COVID. But you should know that as it currently stands, his contract next year is a total catastrophe under a reduced cap. Ditto Kemba and Hayward.

Its just not man, its not even close. This is one of the worst takes I've seen on this board in a while. His contract literally can't be more than 25% of the cap, and even under that scenario there are numerous GM's who would make that offer to a 23 year old coming off a 20 ppg season at well above average efficiency and defensive play.

And his contract likely wont we 25% of the cap. Right now its looking like next season will likely feature a cap freeze at 109 million (with a larger percentage held in escrow to compensate for potential loses). Jaylen is slated to make 22.8 million next year which is 21% of the cap.

I think you miss my point. When you give that kind of money to the likes of Kemba, Hayward, and Jaylen, you cannot win a title, and you certainly can't have a bench. If you want to hold up stats and compare them to other non-elite players on other non-elite teams, that's great. But that's what Kings fans do.

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't know what the path is to contention from here, but it sure as hell isn't in giving contracts like that out.

I get why we had to do it, but you guys are being mad homers on this. If Jaylen didn't play for us, you wouldn't even know his name.

Again man, Jaylen is not the problem on that list. As for the bolded, well if you dont like giving out value contracts then thank god you arent a gm. I mean going into next year you could easily trade Jaylen for positive value to about a dozen teams that need wing play, by definition then it isnt a bad contract. He's getting paid what is essentially third banana money for a player on a good team. I mean his 22.8 million would have been the fourth highest salary on last years raptors for example behind Lowry, Kawhi, Gasol and just ahead of Ibaka.

Try this exercise. What competing team this year would he not at least arguably be at least the third best player on right now? The answer is: pretty much none.

And thats before we factor in that again he's still likely to improve at least modestly before his prime. He may end up a legit #2 on a title team type guy by his prime.

In short man your analysis on this is just wrong, your problem isnt with Jaylen's contract. Its a perfect reasonable contract you can win with and thats has some considerable upside. Having a value contract like that is, in fact, of considerable advantage when trying to build a champion. Your problem is that the Celtics dont have a true 1A, top 10 level player on the roster. If we did Jaylen would slot in nicely behind that guy as a reasonably paid support piece. And Jaylens contract is in no way preventing you from getting that piece right now.

[themoneyteam2]

We don't even know what the cap is, or if the league will do anything to address the impacts of COVID. But you should know that as it currently stands, his contract next year is a total catastrophe under a reduced cap. Ditto Kemba and Hayward.

Its just not man, its not even close. This is one of the worst takes I've seen on this board in a while. His contract literally can't be more than 25% of the cap, and even under that scenario there are numerous GM's who would make that offer to a 23 year old coming off a 20 ppg season at well above average efficiency and defensive play.

And his contract likely wont we 25% of the cap. Right now its looking like next season will likely feature a cap freeze at 109 million (with a larger percentage held in escrow to compensate for potential loses). Jaylen is slated to make 22.8 million next year which is 21% of the cap.

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Brown would absolutely be a top 4 player on the Warriors. Call me a homer all you want but I’m taking a 23 yr old averaging 20/6/2 on 49% FG and 38% 3PT over Wiggins and over this iteration of Draymond in 2020. And please don’t tell me a top pick in this year’s draft is better than Brown lol. Might be the most ludicrous thing I’ve read.

Brown has also been really good in the playoffs as well so not sure where you’re getting that from.

Amongst 20 PPG scorers this season, Brown ranks:

- 3rd lowest time of possession
- 2nd lowest amount of touches
- Highest EFG% for guards
- 2nd in FG% & 2P% for guards
- Lowest USG%
- 4th in Pts/Touch
- 2nd in transition FG% & EFG%

[themoneyteam2]

I think you miss my point. When you give that kind of money to the likes of Kemba, Hayward, and Jaylen, you cannot win a title, and you certainly can't have a bench. If you want to hold up stats and compare them to other non-elite players on other non-elite teams, that's great. But that's what Kings fans do.

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't know what the path is to contention from here, but it sure as hell isn't in giving contracts like that out.

I get why we had to do it, but you guys are being mad homers on this. If Jaylen didn't play for us, you wouldn't even know his name.

The general population of this board is made up of homers. I'm the first to jump on that train. But even I can't support that opinion man. Brown has top 20-25 potential. If Tatum can break out eventually into that top 10 player, and a team of more supportive players are built around him, they have a chance. Hayward would have to take a pay cut. And we need a bit of luck. But I don't think we are THAT far off. Do I think this roster as is can win a title in a few years? No.

But I'm imagining a team built around Tatum and Jaylen looks different.

If we are wrong about Tatum reaching top 10/all nba status, and Jaylen becoming a perinnial all-star, then okay. Too early in their timelines to make any major prediction imo. But I do see where you are coming from. This current teams talent level outside of Tatum is a bit overvalued.

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I'm not going to agree, but back to the original point, why do people think we can afford a better bench with the money we have slated to our top 4? Or for that matter, after the cap acrobatics we had to go through to be able to offer Kemba a max? I feel like those things are related somehow.

Back to the other original point, if our core is so great, why the big need for bench scoring from minimum-salary European league retreads like Wanamaker? Don't we have four 20ppg scorer types?

It’s not necessarily that they need the bench scoring. They have the #4 offense in the league so that’s not the issue. It’s having shooting off the bench to pose a threat to the defense. There is currently no scoring or shooting threat coming off the bench. It’s not like they need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but they do need a guy who can provide some offense.

Smart is an elite 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. The issue is playing Wanamaker who shouldn’t even be in this league. I think they can develop a nice bench through the draft which also is good for cap management. At #14 this year a guy like Saddiq Bey, Tyrese Maxey, Aaron Nesmith are already upgrades in the rotation to be a scoring threats.

Next year’s rotation could be: Smart, Kanter, Romeo, #14, Timelord, Grant. That’s 11 deep and is fine as a bench in my opinion, assuming our pick at #14 is a guy who can score like I mentioned above. And in games vs playoff teams that rotation shrinks to 8-9 as well so it’ll depend on the development of Romeo, Timelord, Grant, and our draft pick this year.

[keevsnick1]

The general population of this board is made up of homers. I'm the first to jump on that train. But even I can't support that opinion man. Brown has top 20-25 potential. If Tatum can break out eventually into that top 10 player, and a team of more supportive players are built around him, they have a chance. Hayward would have to take a pay cut. And we need a bit of luck. But I don't think we are THAT far off. Do I think this roster as is can win a title in a few years? No.

But I'm imagining a team built around Tatum and Jaylen looks different.

If we are wrong about Tatum reaching top 10/all nba status, and Jaylen becoming a perinnial all-star, then okay. Too early in their timelines to make any major prediction imo. But I do see where you are coming from. This current teams talent level outside of Tatum is a bit overvalued.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I'm not going to agree, but back to the original point, why do people think we can afford a better bench with the money we have slated to our top 4? Or for that matter, after the cap acrobatics we had to go through to be able to offer Kemba a max? I feel like those things are related somehow.

Back to the other original point, if our core is so great, why the big need for bench scoring from minimum-salary European league retreads like Wanamaker? Don't we have four 20ppg scorer types?

It’s not necessarily that they need the bench scoring. They have the #4 offense in the league so that’s not the issue. It’s having shooting off the bench to pose a threat to the defense. There is currently no scoring or shooting threat coming off the bench. It’s not like they need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but they do need a guy who can provide some offense.

Smart is an elite 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. The issue is playing Wanamaker who shouldn’t even be in this league. I think they can develop a nice bench through the draft which also is good for cap management. At #14 this year a guy like Saddiq Bey, Tyrese Maxey, Aaron Nesmith are already upgrades in the rotation to be a scoring threats.

Next year’s rotation could be: Smart, Kanter, Romeo, #14, Timelord, Grant. That’s 11 deep and is fine as a bench in my opinion, assuming our pick at #14 is a guy who can score like I mentioned above. And in games vs playoff teams that rotation shrinks to 8-9 as well so it’ll depend on the development of Romeo, Timelord, Grant, and our draft pick this year.

Ya this, its not so much we need a guy like Lou Williams to drop 20 as much as we need a guy like Joe Harris, Dany Green, ect. A guy who can space the floor on offense and hold up fine on defense. Just one or two guys who wont actively make our top end talent worse by allowing defenders to ignore them and double Jaylen, Tatum, ect.

And the secodn issue is we dont have a big guy who can physically match Embiid, Giannis or Davis. Doesn't have to be a star, just a Gasol, even a Baynes type player.

Succinctly put, the team lacks certain types of role players that would be very valuable in those roles, and it MIGHT make us less than the sum of our parts.

[Captain_Caveman]

Its just not man, its not even close. This is one of the worst takes I've seen on this board in a while. His contract literally can't be more than 25% of the cap, and even under that scenario there are numerous GM's who would make that offer to a 23 year old coming off a 20 ppg season at well above average efficiency and defensive play.

And his contract likely wont we 25% of the cap. Right now its looking like next season will likely feature a cap freeze at 109 million (with a larger percentage held in escrow to compensate for potential loses). Jaylen is slated to make 22.8 million next year which is 21% of the cap.

I think you miss my point. When you give that kind of money to the likes of Kemba, Hayward, and Jaylen, you cannot win a title, and you certainly can't have a bench. If you want to hold up stats and compare them to other non-elite players on other non-elite teams, that's great. But that's what Kings fans do.

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't know what the path is to contention from here, but it sure as hell isn't in giving contracts like that out.

I get why we had to do it, but you guys are being mad homers on this. If Jaylen didn't play for us, you wouldn't even know his name.

Again man, Jaylen is not the problem on that list. As for the bolded, well if you dont like giving out value contracts then thank god you arent a gm. I mean going into next year you could easily trade Jaylen for positive value to about a dozen teams that need wing play, by definition then it isnt a bad contract. He's getting paid what is essentially third banana money for a player on a good team. I mean his 22.8 million would have been the fourth highest salary on last years raptors for example behind Lowry, Kawhi, Gasol and just ahead of Ibaka.

Try this exercise. What competing team this year would he not at least arguably be at least the third best player on right now? The answer is: pretty much none.

And thats before we factor in that again he's still likely to improve at least modestly before his prime. He may end up a legit #2 on a title team type guy by his prime.

In short man your analysis on this is just wrong, your problem isnt with Jaylen's contract. Its a perfect reasonable contract you can win with and thats has some considerable upside. Having a value contract like that is, in fact, of considerable advantage when trying to build a champion. Your problem is that the Celtics dont have a true 1A, top 10 level player on the roster. If we did Jaylen would slot in nicely behind that guy as a reasonably paid support piece.

You are arguing for value in a vacuum. I am arguing for a path to true contention. Couldn't care less if our guys are "worth the money" relative to other players in the league. I'm sure you could have made the same case for Andy Dalton as a Bengals quarterback, but the bottom line is that you don't win titles paying average money to average QBs like Andy Dalton. So what's the point? No, really. What's the point?

Ainge and the BBP aren't confused about how this works. In the NBA, you need a legit MVP candidate plus another top 10-15 guy, or two other All-Stars. If you have that, you are a contender and your bench is an afterthought. And if you don't have that, you are not a contender and your bench is still an afterthought.

I didn't mind the Hayward contract at the time because I saw how it fit holistically into our build plan. We had a legit shot at AD. Overpaying Hayward just a matter of lux tax if it facilitated that. Now? Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts not facilitating anything but being 5th place for the next five years. There's no trades to make, and no path to get to true contention. At the same time our young guys are getting older, so are our old guys. We are entirely dependent on Tatum making an MVP leap that is highly unlikely.

The idea that you win titles by having the best 3rd or 4th best player is something I reject out of hand. You win titles because your 1st and 2nd best players are better. But to answer your question, I think the Warriors and Clippers both have 3 guys better than Jaylen. Jazz and Rockets comparable. Raptors, Nuggets, and Heat all have better functional depth with better salary structures. Lakers and Bucks not far off, with far better talent at the top of the lineup.

Jaylen is no future #2 on a title team. And positive trade value? How so? Name one realistic scenario where we get a better player for Jaylen and spare parts. At best, we could make a lateral move. At best. There is no one on the team with positive trade value, which is kind of the problem.