Celtics General Thread 2019-20, "Re-Start"

[MagicBagley18]

Why do you guys keep arguing with Cave ? His ego’s too big to realise he was wrong about Jaylen & his contract.

The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward. That’s true IMO. The brown element is just that he never is going to be A superstar or a perennial all star

We r entering year 5 with Jaylen. He’s made a huge leap this year but I don’t think he’s a superstar or close to a perennial all star

Superstars & perennial all stars usually get max contracts though. If Jaylen becomes a perennial all star then this contract is a bargain.

Right and he’s neither

[MagicBagley18]

This argument is very similar to the kyrie and anti kyrie crowd..... I knew kyrie was and is a jackass in the locker room- a diva, a pain in the ass etc but I wanted him back only because it meant AD was coming with him. Didn’t want him if it meant no AD but for AD? you deal with the headaches

[Homerclease]

The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward. That’s true IMO. The brown element is just that he never is going to be A superstar or a perennial all star

We r entering year 5 with Jaylen. He’s made a huge leap this year but I don’t think he’s a superstar or close to a perennial all star

Superstars & perennial all stars usually get max contracts though. If Jaylen becomes a perennial all star then this contract is a bargain.

Right and he’s neither

He’s 23, and definitely young enough to be DeRozaned for the next disgruntled superstar that shakes loose in the next 5 years.

[themoneyteam2]

I said Jaylen might not be top 4 on the Warriors, and might not be better than a top 5 pick this year. You countered by saying that he is better than Draymond, and are trying to talk credibility?

Do I really lose credibility by saying he's better than 2020 Draymond though? We can compare if you want. To be top 4 on Warriors he just had to be better than one of Wiggins or Draymond.


Box score stats: - Heavily favor Brown unless you prefer a guy averaging a triple single.

Brown: 20.6 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 2.1 APG, 48.8% FG, 38.7% 3PT, 72.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.1 SPG

Draymond: 8.0 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 6.2 APG, 38.9% FG, 27.9% 3PT, 75.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.4 SPG

Advanced Stats:
Brown: 17.3 PER, 58.9 TS%, 4.8 WS, .126 WS/48, 1.2 OBPM, -0.2 DBPM, 0.9 BPM, 1.4 VORP, 111 ORtg, 108 DRtg, 1.08 RPM

Draymond: 12.6 PER, 48.9 TS%, 1.1 WS, .044 WS/48, -2.0 OBPM, 1.9 DBPM, -0.2 BPM, 0.6 VORP, 100 ORtg, 110 DRtg, 0.93 RPM

So apparently I lose credibility for saying Brown is better than Draymond, despite him leading in all but 4 out of 23 statistical categories. Please tell me how Dra is better. He's a better defender and facilitator. That's it. He's a negative on offense at this stage in his career by any metric you look at. This isn't 2016 Draymond anymore.

Just admit you are wrong about Brown. And no, a top 5 pick in this draft has no case for possibly being better than Brown.

Yes, you absolutely lose credibility trying to say Jaylen is better than Draymond.

Further, as I have been saying here for like 12 years now, using stats to try to make that argument is a fundamental lack of understanding about basketball on the most basic of levels. That's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum didn't want to trade Al Jefferson for KG. It's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum wanted to trade multiple Nets picks for Boogie Cousins.

If you are using his 2019-20 stats as the metric to judge Dray's worth, I really don't even know where to begin. In basketball, or life.

So if I can’t use any stats to compare, what should I use? Cause the eye test damn sure doesn’t tell me Draymond is a better player than Jaylen Brown in 2020.

And if you think a top 5 pick in this draft might be better than Jaylen Brown next year, I really don’t even know where to begin. In basketball, or life.

[MagicBagley18]

Superstars & perennial all stars usually get max contracts though. If Jaylen becomes a perennial all star then this contract is a bargain.

Right and he’s neither

He’s 23, and definitely young enough to be DeRozaned for the next disgruntled superstar that shakes loose in the next 5 years.

It’s year 5 almost regardless....how many superstars or perennial all stars take to year 5 before they make 1 all star game ? Jimmy butler career trajectory isn’t normal.

[Feed Your Head]

The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward. That’s true IMO. The brown element is just that he never is going to be A superstar or a perennial all star

We r entering year 5 with Jaylen. He’s made a huge leap this year but I don’t think he’s a superstar or close to a perennial all star

Superstars & perennial all stars usually get max contracts though. If Jaylen becomes a perennial all star then this contract is a bargain.

Right and he’s neither

There is a disconnect with Jaylens raw and impact stats. His raw stats this year show a guy who can be a perennial all star, but impact stats just don’t love him.

I think the answer falls somewhere in the middle, he will make a few all star teams if I had to guess, but isn’t good enough to be the second best guy on a title team. I think he will be traded within a year or two, which is a shame as he is one of the best people to ever play for the franchise.

[Floody100]

Superstars & perennial all stars usually get max contracts though. If Jaylen becomes a perennial all star then this contract is a bargain.

Right and he’s neither

He’s 23, and definitely young enough to be DeRozaned for the next disgruntled superstar that shakes loose in the next 5 years.

+1
I think people are sleeping on Jaylen’s potential.
The improvements he has made from pre-COVID to the games so far in the bubble have been noticeable too.

[Homerclease]

Right and he’s neither

He’s 23, and definitely young enough to be DeRozaned for the next disgruntled superstar that shakes loose in the next 5 years.

It’s year 5 almost regardless....how many superstars or perennial all stars take to year 5 before they make 1 all star game ? Jimmy butler career trajectory isn’t normal.

That’s not my point.

[MagicBagley18]

Superstars & perennial all stars usually get max contracts though. If Jaylen becomes a perennial all star then this contract is a bargain.

Right and he’s neither

There is a disconnect with Jaylens raw and impact stats. His raw stats this year show a guy who can be a perennial all star, but impact stats just don’t love him.

I think the answer falls somewhere in the middle, he will make a few all star teams if I had to guess, but isn’t good enough to be the second best guy on a title team.

The stats also can be misleading bc he has the luxury of being a 3rd option

[Homerclease]

Right and he’s neither

He’s 23, and definitely young enough to be DeRozaned for the next disgruntled superstar that shakes loose in the next 5 years.

+1
I think people are sleeping on Jaylen’s potential.
The improvements he has made from pre-COVID to the games so far in the bubble have been noticeable too.

My point is that he can be traded in a package for a better player, not that he’s ever going to improve enough to the point he can be considered a top 10 player in the league

[MagicBagley18]

He’s 23, and definitely young enough to be DeRozaned for the next disgruntled superstar that shakes loose in the next 5 years.

It’s year 5 almost regardless....how many superstars or perennial all stars take to year 5 before they make 1 all star game ? Jimmy butler career trajectory isn’t normal.

That’s not my point.

No your point is he can make an all star game and we sell high on him....he’s gotta be an all star first before we can trade him for a superstar. Basically saying he’s young- my point is it’s year 5 he just learned how to dribble in a straight line and chew gum

[Homerclease]

It’s year 5 almost regardless....how many superstars or perennial all stars take to year 5 before they make 1 all star game ? Jimmy butler career trajectory isn’t normal.

That’s not my point.

No your point is he can make an all star game and we sell high on him....he’s gotta be an all star first before we can trade him for a superstar. Basically saying he’s young- my point is it’s year 5 he just learned how to dribble in a straight line and chew gum

I don’t think making all star games has much bearing on anything so I don’t know why you keep bringing that up. The point I’m trying to make is that there is enough room for improvement in his game and he’s young enough to be dealt while still in his prime for what should be at the minimum a market rate deal. Heck, Zach LaVine was the centerpiece in a Jimmy Butler deal and he’s horrible. I don’t think locking Brown up hurts the Celtics flexibility at all. I think it improves it. Say we never signed Kemba, let Hayward and Brown walk and didn’t receive any compensation for any of them. Where does that leave us? Tatum + Smart and a bunch of cap space? Now you have to convince a star to sign here after letting two above average guys walk to play with Tatum who by this point, is approaching Anthony Davis levels of “why can’t you build a team around me”. Want to make a trade for a guy to play with Tatum? With what? Smart and a bunch of mid firsts? It’s not ideal, but we have to keep the cupboard stocked with something and attempt to keep our future franchise guy happy

[Captain_Caveman]

Do I really lose credibility by saying he's better than 2020 Draymond though? We can compare if you want. To be top 4 on Warriors he just had to be better than one of Wiggins or Draymond.


Box score stats: - Heavily favor Brown unless you prefer a guy averaging a triple single.

Brown: 20.6 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 2.1 APG, 48.8% FG, 38.7% 3PT, 72.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.1 SPG

Draymond: 8.0 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 6.2 APG, 38.9% FG, 27.9% 3PT, 75.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.4 SPG

Advanced Stats:
Brown: 17.3 PER, 58.9 TS%, 4.8 WS, .126 WS/48, 1.2 OBPM, -0.2 DBPM, 0.9 BPM, 1.4 VORP, 111 ORtg, 108 DRtg, 1.08 RPM

Draymond: 12.6 PER, 48.9 TS%, 1.1 WS, .044 WS/48, -2.0 OBPM, 1.9 DBPM, -0.2 BPM, 0.6 VORP, 100 ORtg, 110 DRtg, 0.93 RPM

So apparently I lose credibility for saying Brown is better than Draymond, despite him leading in all but 4 out of 23 statistical categories. Please tell me how Dra is better. He's a better defender and facilitator. That's it. He's a negative on offense at this stage in his career by any metric you look at. This isn't 2016 Draymond anymore.

Just admit you are wrong about Brown. And no, a top 5 pick in this draft has no case for possibly being better than Brown.

Yes, you absolutely lose credibility trying to say Jaylen is better than Draymond.

Further, as I have been saying here for like 12 years now, using stats to try to make that argument is a fundamental lack of understanding about basketball on the most basic of levels. That's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum didn't want to trade Al Jefferson for KG. It's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum wanted to trade multiple Nets picks for Boogie Cousins.

If you are using his 2019-20 stats as the metric to judge Dray's worth, I really don't even know where to begin. In basketball, or life.

So if I can’t use any stats to compare, what should I use? Cause the eye test damn sure doesn’t tell me Draymond is a better player than Jaylen Brown in 2020.

And if you think a top 5 pick in this draft might be better than Jaylen Brown next year, I really don’t even know where to begin. In basketball, or life.

You could use the fact that Dray is probably going to the Hall of Fame, while Jaylen is almost certainly not.

I mean, I get what you are saying. Stats are proof. The numbers are right there. Just as they were for Wilt over Russell, Peyton and Brees over Brady, Vince Carter over Pierce, and Boogie Cousins over keeping the picks that became Jaylen and Tatum in the first place.

But I kinda feel like that isn't the big thing when you are a fan of a team with 17 titles and 0 scoring champions.

[themoneyteam2]

Right and he’s neither

He’s 23, and definitely young enough to be DeRozaned for the next disgruntled superstar that shakes loose in the next 5 years.

It’s year 5 almost regardless....how many superstars or perennial all stars take to year 5 before they make 1 all star game ? Jimmy butler career trajectory isn’t normal.

I think he’ll make a few all stars game in his career. Regardless, Celtics didn’t even give him the max. Jamal Murray got 5 yr/170 and I would take Brown over Murray.

The market determines the contract. Brown isn’t overpaid at all when you look at guys who are making around $20-$25 million next year. Hell, Rozier got $19 million and Horford got $27 million. I guess I’m not understanding what your issue is with the contract. They were obviously going to keep Brown and not lose him for nothing and they actually underpaid him relative to what the market had him worth, where if he hit RFA (pre-COVID), a team would have given him a max offer sheet

[KGboss]

Brown is a stud I dont understand the hate he is getting right now.

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[Captain_Caveman]

This argument is very similar to the kyrie and anti kyrie crowd..... I knew kyrie was and is a jackass in the locker room- a diva, a pain in the ass etc but I wanted him back only because it meant AD was coming with him. Didn’t want him if it meant no AD but for AD? you deal with the headaches

Maybe KD as well.

[MagicBagley18]

That’s not my point.

No your point is he can make an all star game and we sell high on him....he’s gotta be an all star first before we can trade him for a superstar. Basically saying he’s young- my point is it’s year 5 he just learned how to dribble in a straight line and chew gum

I don’t think making all star games has much bearing on anything so I don’t know why you keep bringing that up. The point I’m trying to make is that there is enough room for improvement in his game and he’s young enough to be dealt while still in his prime for what should be at the minimum a market rate deal. Heck, Zach LaVine was the centerpiece in a Jimmy Butler deal and he’s horrible. I don’t think locking Brown up hurts the Celtics flexibility at all. I think it improves it. Say we never signed Kemba, let Hayward and Brown walk and didn’t receive any compensation for any of them. Where does that leave us? Tatum + Smart and a bunch of cap space? Now you have to convince a star to sign here after letting two above average guys walk to play with Tatum who by this point, is approaching Anthony Davis levels of “why can’t you build a team around me”. Want to make a trade for a guy to play with Tatum? With what? Smart and a bunch of mid firsts? It’s not ideal, but we have to keep the cupboard stocked with something and attempt to keep our future franchise guy happy

I’ve been on record as saying I would have traded brown before it got to that point when everyone here was saying he’s untouchable. It’s funny about LaVine because If Zach LaVine was on the Celtics he would be overrated by the fans here just like brown is, Isaiah was etc.

the Hayward signing was a good move at its time- unfortunately injury and other moves like getting AD didn’t happen but he at the very least was a player on the come up and ascending, fit the scheme to a T and fit around ainge’s plan to get AD and was a pat on the back for stevens because they love each other.

Kemba was a signing by wyc to keep the fans engaged and happy. If your asking if we would have been better off (in terms of flexibility and maneuverability) building around a 21 yr old stud in tatum and having cap space and or picks instead of signing kemba? there’s a real argument

[themoneyteam2]

Yes, you absolutely lose credibility trying to say Jaylen is better than Draymond.

Further, as I have been saying here for like 12 years now, using stats to try to make that argument is a fundamental lack of understanding about basketball on the most basic of levels. That's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum didn't want to trade Al Jefferson for KG. It's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum wanted to trade multiple Nets picks for Boogie Cousins.

If you are using his 2019-20 stats as the metric to judge Dray's worth, I really don't even know where to begin. In basketball, or life.

So if I can’t use any stats to compare, what should I use? Cause the eye test damn sure doesn’t tell me Draymond is a better player than Jaylen Brown in 2020.

And if you think a top 5 pick in this draft might be better than Jaylen Brown next year, I really don’t even know where to begin. In basketball, or life.

You could use the fact that Dray is probably going to the Hall of Fame, while Jaylen is almost certainly not.

I mean, I get what you are saying. Stats are proof. The numbers are right there. Just as they were for Wilt over Russell, Peyton and Brees over Brady, Vince Carter over Pierce, and Boogie Cousins over keeping the picks that became Jaylen and Tatum in the first place.

But I kinda feel like that isn't the big thing when you are a fan of a team with 17 titles and 0 scoring champions.

Well I’m talking about Draymond in 2020, not his 2016-2018...

I think that’s where you’re mistaken. Draymond has obviously had a better career and peak. However, we’re talking about the players currently and not for their careers so Draymond being a HOF is irrelevant when he absolutely sucked this year and has regressed the past 2 years.

In 2020 is not better than Jaylen Brown I’m sorry. You have yet to pe ovide one single shred of credible evidence or argument as to how Draymond is CURRENTLY better than Brown, other than just saying I don’t know basketball or that Draymond was better from 2016-2018.

[Captain_Caveman]

Brown is a stud I dont understand the hate he is getting right now.

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He's not being hated. I'm saying that he is slightly overpaid, just as Kemba and Hayward are, and that our contract structure on the whole is why we don't and won't have money for a deep bench going forward unless major moves are made.

[Captain_Caveman]

So if I can’t use any stats to compare, what should I use? Cause the eye test damn sure doesn’t tell me Draymond is a better player than Jaylen Brown in 2020.

And if you think a top 5 pick in this draft might be better than Jaylen Brown next year, I really don’t even know where to begin. In basketball, or life.

You could use the fact that Dray is probably going to the Hall of Fame, while Jaylen is almost certainly not.

I mean, I get what you are saying. Stats are proof. The numbers are right there. Just as they were for Wilt over Russell, Peyton and Brees over Brady, Vince Carter over Pierce, and Boogie Cousins over keeping the picks that became Jaylen and Tatum in the first place.

But I kinda feel like that isn't the big thing when you are a fan of a team with 17 titles and 0 scoring champions.

Well I’m talking about Draymond in 2020, not his 2016-2018...

I think that’s where you’re mistaken. Draymond has obviously had a better career and peak. However, we’re talking about the players currently and not for their careers so Draymond being a HOF is irrelevant when he absolutely sucked this year and has regressed the past 2 years.

In 2020 is not better than Jaylen Brown I’m sorry. You have yet to pe ovide one single shred of credible evidence or argument as to how Draymond is CURRENTLY better than Brown, other than just saying I don’t know basketball or that Draymond was better from 2016-2018.

That's disingenuous to try to boil Dray down to his stats over a 43-game span where the Warriors were injured and often tanking outright. If not for a significant amount of significant injuries, Dray could have easily been working on his 5th ring in 6 seasons this year, with the other year coming down to the very end of Game 7 in the Finals.