Even The Celts Cavn't Figured Out How to Win Em All! Loss vs CLE 3/5

[The Corey's]

Nah!

I say let's just give the naysayers their space.

If Cs win total is around 65-61, that means the whining is only about 17 to 21 times.

One thing's for sure there will be at least 60 times the naysayers and the whiners are in hibernation.

Can you imagine if the Cs win Banner 18 and Joe is the coach?

Two things might happen:

1. A lot of crows falling from the sky.

2. Excuses will be 99 pages long.

Listen dawg. Check the pre season predictions post for this season.

I had the Celtics at over 60 wins.

And it wasn't cause of Joe bruh.

[The Corey's]

Still waiting...

You'll get your ridiculous arbitrary evidence when you produce the evidence that you're arguing.

I'm not arguing anything, just waiting for you to provide a shred of evidence to back up what you are claiming.

I reckon I'll be waiting a while...

Why have a coach at all if your point is that there is no statistical evidence that they make a difference down the stretch by doing their job.

That's hilarious

[zoyathedestroya]

The Kornet-Horford lineup (w/ PP, Jrue, and Tatum) was -10 in 10 minutes. Minus TEN in a one-point loss. We went to it on purpose and stayed with it even as they struggled defending the three-ball, the only way Cavs would've made up for a 20+ point deficit in the 4th. I don't think Joe believes in "momentum". Cavs were already in a rhythm (esp playing at home) when he pulled out Kornet and Horford with five minutes to go in the game. Only six points were shaved in those 7 minutes to start the 4th but damage was already done and Cs gave Cavs life.

Where was Tillman? He's better at defending the perimeter in these double-big combos.

Last play killing clock wasn't on Joe. That's mostly on Tatum. He should know better by now.

[zoyathedestroya]

The Kornet-Horford pairing is our 2nd worst pairing in terms of net rating, minimum 100 minutes played. The worst is Banton-Pritchard and I would bet those minutes came in garbage time. It's also our 2nd worst pairing in terms of defensive rating. Only one worse is Holiday-Queta (and Queta won't see postseason minutes).

Joe can use Tillman in Kornet's place to pair with Horford or just play Kornet on his own in Tatum-led bench lineups (these kill opposition).

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

I'd have this team under 7 loses.

Joe is a passenger. Not a innovator.

Do you think you're a better coach than Ime Udoka, or do you think Ime would also have them with that kind of record?

How about Brad?

While the Celtics are aying better defense this year than last year, Ime had them playing at a historical level in the second half of the 21/22 season.

He ain't afraid to call out Tatum for a ridiculous end of game shot. Not that he would have had to because he would have called a time up to draw up a better play.

You’re entitled to your opinion.

Ime had access to the only time Rob Williams was fully healthy and mature, along with a younger Al. The defense was great but the offense was elementary and ass. Ime was one Jimmy 3 from getting the same result Joe did with JT injured in game 7.

I liked Ime’s tough love approach but he’s a bit of a one trick pony. Ime is far more conventional than Joe.

I really don’t see much analysis from you breaking down Joe’s weaknesses (I’d include strengths too but he doesn’t have any according to you). It seems to be the same rhetoric many have said after a loss and comes down to Joe not applying convention rather than invention.

In case you hadn’t noticed, Joe has them playing at an historical level too, except with offense.

I disagree with you but I doubt either of us are particularly fussed by that.

[zoyathedestroya]

But none of this would matter had Tatum showed up in the 2nd half, particularly in the 4th, where he went 1/9 (0/2 from 3) with 0 assists and a staggering -17 playing the entire Q.

White, Brown, and KP all played just 5 minutes each in the 4th. Brown and White combined for 0s across the board except for a single miss by Derrick which led to a corner three for the Cavs cos he failed to get back on D.

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

But none of this would matter had Tatum showed up in the 2nd half, particularly in the 4th, where he went 1/9 (0/2 from 3) with 0 assists and a staggering -17 playing the entire Q.

Quite honestly, I prefer the loss and having to learn (again) not to wait to get into your last play action. I’d rather they face this in the RS over and over until they execute better, and I don’t mean the last second bail out hero shot that masks the poor execution.

[The Corey's]

Do you think you're a better coach than Ime Udoka, or do you think Ime would also have them with that kind of record?

How about Brad?

While the Celtics are aying better defense this year than last year, Ime had them playing at a historical level in the second half of the 21/22 season.

He ain't afraid to call out Tatum for a ridiculous end of game shot. Not that he would have had to because he would have called a time up to draw up a better play.

You’re entitled to your opinion.

Ime had access to the only time Rob Williams was fully healthy and mature, along with a younger Al. The defense was great but the offense was elementary and ass. Ime was one Jimmy 3 from getting the same result Joe did with JT injured in game 7.

I liked Ime’s tough love approach but he’s a bit of a one trick pony. Ime is far more conventional than Joe.

I really don’t see much analysis from you breaking down Joe’s weaknesses (I’d include strengths too but he doesn’t have any according to you). It seems to be the same rhetoric many have said after a loss and comes down to Joe not applying convention rather than invention.

In case you hadn’t noticed, Joe has them playing at an historical level too, except with offense.

I disagree with you but I doubt either of us are particularly fussed by that.

It would take a special kind of coach to **** up this roster.

On talent alone I had them at over 60 wins.

Joe's competence or lack of it will only matter fine playoff time.

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

While the Celtics are aying better defense this year than last year, Ime had them playing at a historical level in the second half of the 21/22 season.

He ain't afraid to call out Tatum for a ridiculous end of game shot. Not that he would have had to because he would have called a time up to draw up a better play.

You’re entitled to your opinion.

Ime had access to the only time Rob Williams was fully healthy and mature, along with a younger Al. The defense was great but the offense was elementary and ass. Ime was one Jimmy 3 from getting the same result Joe did with JT injured in game 7.

I liked Ime’s tough love approach but he’s a bit of a one trick pony. Ime is far more conventional than Joe.

I really don’t see much analysis from you breaking down Joe’s weaknesses (I’d include strengths too but he doesn’t have any according to you). It seems to be the same rhetoric many have said after a loss and comes down to Joe not applying convention rather than invention.

In case you hadn’t noticed, Joe has them playing at an historical level too, except with offense.

I disagree with you but I doubt either of us are particularly fussed by that.

It would take a special kind of coach to **** up this roster.

On talent alone I had them at over 60 wins.

Joe's competence or lack of it will only matter fine playoff time.

I agree it’s the playoffs that matter, but unlike you I see a great number of things Joe has done well this season and think he’s far more of an innovator than Ime.

None of it matters without a banner though.

[Fencer reregistered]

I'd have this team under 7 loses.

Joe is a passenger. Not a innovator.

Do you think you're a better coach than Ime Udoka, or do you think Ime would also have them with that kind of record?

How about Brad?

While the Celtics are aying better defense this year than last year, Ime had them playing at a historical level in the second half of the 21/22 season.

He ain't afraid to call out Tatum for a ridiculous end of game shot. Not that he would have had to because he would have called a time up to draw up a better play.

That doesn't really answer my question. Ime's scheme with Rob (which Joe is sometimes credited for devising as an assistant) isn't available this year. And whether Ime called out guys for bad choices -- as Joe just did too -- they kept making them anyway.

You also seem to give no credence to the idea that the better ball movement under Joe has anything to do with Joe.

[zoyathedestroya]

Up 22, call a timeout when lead is down to 3. Go home with two unused timeouts and an L in your pocket. That should teach em!

[The Corey's]

You’re entitled to your opinion.

Ime had access to the only time Rob Williams was fully healthy and mature, along with a younger Al. The defense was great but the offense was elementary and ass. Ime was one Jimmy 3 from getting the same result Joe did with JT injured in game 7.

I liked Ime’s tough love approach but he’s a bit of a one trick pony. Ime is far more conventional than Joe.

I really don’t see much analysis from you breaking down Joe’s weaknesses (I’d include strengths too but he doesn’t have any according to you). It seems to be the same rhetoric many have said after a loss and comes down to Joe not applying convention rather than invention.

In case you hadn’t noticed, Joe has them playing at an historical level too, except with offense.

I disagree with you but I doubt either of us are particularly fussed by that.

It would take a special kind of coach to **** up this roster.

On talent alone I had them at over 60 wins.

Joe's competence or lack of it will only matter fine playoff time.

I agree it’s the playoffs that matter, but unlike you I see a great number of things Joe has done well this season and think he’s far more of an innovator than Ime.

None of it matters without a banner though.

So you're fine with Joe watching the team implode while he sits around and does nothing to course correct?

I mean, it's probably not the innovation you're talking about but it certainly is a fresh take on the coaches responsibility.

[The Corey's]

Up 22, call a timeout when lead is down to 3. Go home with two timeouts and an L in your pocket. That should teach em!

Even better is when he's over there in the corner trying to call a timeout with 2 seconds left after he watched Tatum dribble the ball for 18 seconds and much to his surprise the team DIDNT find the play he had hoped they would on their own.

Even better yet was scal calling Joe out for not fighting for more time on the clock at the end of the game.

[London2Boston]

Only 7.5 games clear at the top now. This team sucks.

[The Corey's]

Only 7.5 games clear at the top now. This team sucks.

Strawman argument.

No one said that and to conflate the argument like that is disingenuous.

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

It would take a special kind of coach to **** up this roster.

On talent alone I had them at over 60 wins.

Joe's competence or lack of it will only matter fine playoff time.

I agree it’s the playoffs that matter, but unlike you I see a great number of things Joe has done well this season and think he’s far more of an innovator than Ime.

None of it matters without a banner though.

So you're fine with Joe watching the team implode while he sits around and does nothing to course correct?

I mean, it's probably not the innovation you're talking about but it certainly is a fresh take on the coaches responsibility.

As long as it’s for the reason I believe it is I’m fine with it.

Joe has discussed several times throughout the year about our players needing to learn to deal with adversity. We have all bemoaned our poor late game execution with this core from well before Joe was coach. Ime didn’t fix it either.

At the start of the season he said two of the things he didn’t do well enough last season was game management at times in the playoffs and having to win every game in the RS at the expense of other opportunities that better serve the bigger picture.

He has admitted to experimenting this year and at times leaving the players to learn from what they have been drilling and training.

So if I take him at face value and apply it to this game, leaving in the bench players for longer and not calling a timeout to adjust is an opportunity to serve the bigger picture of learning to get better in one of our weakest areas during the RS while we have a buffer. In other words, allowing things to play out and either simulate a clutch game for live practice or the bench guys steady it prior.

The reason I’m not hugely concerned about this is I choose to believe Joe when he’s said he’s learnt from times in last year’s playoffs where he should have called timeouts and the reason he doesn’t do it now is the game matters less than the greater good.

But…time will tell if this is the case.

[The Corey's]

I agree it’s the playoffs that matter, but unlike you I see a great number of things Joe has done well this season and think he’s far more of an innovator than Ime.

None of it matters without a banner though.

So you're fine with Joe watching the team implode while he sits around and does nothing to course correct?

I mean, it's probably not the innovation you're talking about but it certainly is a fresh take on the coaches responsibility.

As long as it’s for the reason I believe it is I’m fine with it.

Joe has discussed several times throughout the year about our players needing to learn to deal with adversity. We have all bemoaned our poor late game execution with this core from well before Joe was coach. Ime didn’t fix it either.

At the start of the season he said two of the things he didn’t do well enough last season was game management at times in the playoffs and having to win every game in the RS at the expense of other opportunities that better serve the bigger picture.

He has admitted to experimenting this year and at times leaving the players to learn from what they have been drilling and training.

So if I take him at face value and apply it to this game, leaving in the bench players for longer and not calling a timeout to adjust is an opportunity to serve the bigger picture of learning to get better in one of our weakest areas during the RS while we have a buffer. In other words, allowing things to play out and either simulate a clutch game for live practice or the bench guys steady it prior.

The reason I’m not hugely concerned about this is I choose to believe Joe when he’s said he’s learnt from times in last years playoffs where he should have called timeouts and the reason he doesn’t do it now is the game matters less than the greater good.

But…time will tell if this is the case.

So if the Celtics have a fourth quarter meltdown where they blow a 20-point lead, and go over half the quarter with only 12 points and lose a game what will the lesson be then? The Joe still doesn't call timeouts when things are going bad?

I read your point and somehow I just don't believe that Joe did what he did because he was teaching them to face the adversity that they're going to face in the playoffs and for them to get some much-needed practice.

But at least I understand your point whether I agree with it or not. The question becomes at what point will the Celtics hold Joe accountable if they lose games like they lost tonight in the playoffs like they did last year.

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

So you're fine with Joe watching the team implode while he sits around and does nothing to course correct?

I mean, it's probably not the innovation you're talking about but it certainly is a fresh take on the coaches responsibility.

As long as it’s for the reason I believe it is I’m fine with it.

Joe has discussed several times throughout the year about our players needing to learn to deal with adversity. We have all bemoaned our poor late game execution with this core from well before Joe was coach. Ime didn’t fix it either.

At the start of the season he said two of the things he didn’t do well enough last season was game management at times in the playoffs and having to win every game in the RS at the expense of other opportunities that better serve the bigger picture.

He has admitted to experimenting this year and at times leaving the players to learn from what they have been drilling and training.

So if I take him at face value and apply it to this game, leaving in the bench players for longer and not calling a timeout to adjust is an opportunity to serve the bigger picture of learning to get better in one of our weakest areas during the RS while we have a buffer. In other words, allowing things to play out and either simulate a clutch game for live practice or the bench guys steady it prior.

The reason I’m not hugely concerned about this is I choose to believe Joe when he’s said he’s learnt from times in last years playoffs where he should have called timeouts and the reason he doesn’t do it now is the game matters less than the greater good.

But…time will tell if this is the case.

So if the Celtics have a fourth quarter meltdown where they blow a 20-point lead, and go over half the quarter with only 12 points and lose a game what will the lesson be then? The Joe still doesn't call timeouts when things are going bad?

I read your point and somehow I just don't believe that Joe did what he did because he was teaching them to face the adversity that they're going to face in the playoffs and for them to get some much-needed practice.

But at least I understand your point whether I agree with it or not. The question becomes at what point will the Celtics hold Joe accountable if they lose games like they lost tonight in the playoffs like they did last year.

Joe has basically flat out said he leaves things to run for these purposes at times and frankly I like it in the situation we’re in, no better way to learn than from in-game. If you fail there’s plenty of vision to then try again.

Regardless, there is an entire staff including Brad who would be in regular dialogue and oversight of Joe.

In our situation with the history our players have had, I think it’s an excellent approach because we’ve seen that years of timeouts under previous coaches did not correct the problem and you know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result…

[Fierce1]

Yeah, it's true this loss is on JT and not on Joe.

JT already had 20 points in the 1st half.

That horrible 2nd half from JT really hurt the Cs, especially in the 4th.

But like I said earlier, this winning streak coming to an end it not really a bad thing.

Everything that can wrong should happen now, in the regular season, so that the Cs will be more prepared for the playoffs.

The Cs being down 0-3 to Miami in the east finals last season was really a shocker.

JT and the rest of the guys should feel something that hurts, like this loss, so that they will try to avoid it happening in the playoffs.

Having a flawless regular season, like the 2007 Mavs and 2022 Suns, makes you a little soft heading into the playoffs.

Even the 66-win Celtics of 2008 got a scare in the 1st round when they were taken by the #8 seed Hawks to 7 games.

[zoyathedestroya]

But none of this would matter had Tatum showed up in the 2nd half, particularly in the 4th, where he went 1/9 (0/2 from 3) with 0 assists and a staggering -17 playing the entire Q.

Quite honestly, I prefer the loss and having to learn (again) not to wait to get into your last play action. I’d rather they face this in the RS over and over until they execute better, and I don’t mean the last second bail out hero shot that masks the poor execution.

Only way we'll know if they really learned their lessons is in the postseason. TBD if they can do better when it matters most. But fans are justified feeling disappointed/disgusted that same mistakes are being made over and over, regular season or not. Until they actually win the whole thing, skepticism and constant criticism will follow them. Just part of it.