Gordon Hayward Thread

[zoyathedestroya]

Anyone suggest this yet to the Celtics' medical/sports science team?

Watch on YouTube

[K For Three]

Bumping this up, hoping it doesn't become about just bashing Gordon. We all make our jokes and many have suggested trades, but I don't see much on the market that could be done.

We WANT Hayward to do well. Early in the season the team was thriving when HE was thriving. Is it injuries again? Mental? Does he get pushed to the background too easily and a lack of mental toughness?

I don't know, but it can be extremely frustrating.

He's an extremely unselfish player that could make this team soooo much better.

Why isn't he more of a focal point?

Why is he so inconsistent?

I just don't know what the problem has been.

[zoyathedestroya]

Bumping this up, hoping it doesn't become about just bashing Gordon...

[K For Three]

Bumping this up, hoping it doesn't become about just bashing Gordon...

I am seriously baffled at times though.

Is it his foot?

[return2glory]

For the first time about two weeks ago, as a Hayward fan I said I wouldn’t mind if the Celtics moved on from Hayward.

Tonight, I still feel the same way. He has skills, no one is questioning that. But the guy can’t be counted on. He is soft and plays with no hustle or urgency. There is no mean bone in this guy’s body.

Celtics played 4 on 5 against the Bucks for most of the game and its amazing that the Celtics made it this close. If not for Kemba and Smart having great games, we would have lost by 30 plus.

[Red2]

Nice guy but it’s not working .

[flintsky21]

Hayward's got to go. You can't have 3 wings on a team who are all as likely to score 25 one night and 12 the next.

[BRUNiNHO91]

First play of the game he put Giannis on his ass, went up to help him up off the floor and Giannis didn't even look at him..just ignored him and got back up by himself. Dude is just too nice.

He has no nasty to his game. Certainly has shown no signs of being a guy you want to go to battle with. Against the Pistons he got into the paint and had a decent game. This game he avoids the paint completely. I'm starting to wonder if he would have been any better even without the injury..this all to me looks more like Jeff Green syndrome than anything else. His confidence is clearly up and down depending on opposition and game situations.

I used to link the fact that when we played well it was because he played well..but I think it's the opposite. When we play well he plays free..you can never count on him to go outt here and do what Kemba did yesterday while the rest of the team **** it's pants. Complete beta mindset..probably worst case of it that I've ever seen. The amount of times this guy defers to Brad Wanamaker when they are in together is just bizarre.

[exculpatory]

First play of the game he put Giannis on his ass, went up to help him up off the floor and Giannis didn't even look at him..just ignored him and got back up by himself. Dude is just too nice.

He has no nasty to his game. Certainly has shown no signs of being a guy you want to go to battle with. Against the Pistons he got into the paint and had a decent game. This game he avoids the paint completely. I'm starting to wonder if he would have been any better even without the injury..this all to me looks more like Jeff Green syndrome than anything else. His confidence is clearly up and down depending on opposition and game situations.

I used to link the fact that when we played well it was because he played well..but I think it's the opposite. When we play well he plays free..you can never count on him to go outt here and do what Kemba did yesterday while the rest of the team **** it's pants. Complete beta mindset..probably worst case of it that I've ever seen. The amount of times this guy defers to Brad Wanamaker when they are in together is just bizarre.

Agree totally, Bru.

I want soooooo much for him to be consistently good.
And we see games where we blast a sub 500 team, & he facilitates very well & scores aggressively.
And then when it is time to step up in a big time game VS a very good team, he plays like a pussy playing hot potato with the ball &, like you said, deferring even to Brad & Semi. No fire. No “Paul **** Pierce give me the **** ball, mother ****”.
HE STILL HAS THE UTAH SKILLS - WE HAVE SEEN THEM MULTIPLE TIMES! Is it residual foot pain and/or does he need to be load managed like Kawhi now and/or is it his permanent mentality now - POST TRAUMATIC STRESS SYNDROME in the wake of a horrendous injury? Has the time come to get rid of him one way or another?

PS I have also had it with our emotionless, non-inspirational, pussy coach as well. I wonder if he shows any emotion when screwing his wife - maybe a slight smile when he orgasms.

[exculpatory]

Error

[jfs1000d]

WTF every time he has a bad game that it is his dam foot.

He was 1-9, and took way TOO MANY 3s. The length of Milwaukee bothered him and he coldn't get in the lane. Tatum also didn't do great, but was more aggressive with a 7-of-18 night,

He had a bad shooting night and was unable to make plays.

It wasn't the foot. He had a bad game. Very bad actually. He missed open shots. What ya gonna do?

[ThirtyFour]

Horford was routinely criticized for not being worth his contract, even garnering the nickname ‘Average Al’. Seems over time it was accepted that his value had a lot to do with intangibles, things that didn’t show up on the stat sheet every game. Add to that his playoff performances were much better than what we often became used to during the regular season, and by the time he left us, most people didn’t want to let him go. So the question is, is Hayward in the same boat? Is he more valuable to us than what shows up in his stat line? Will he have another gear come playoff time, or was last years disappointing post season what we should expect? Should we start calling him ‘Ho Hum Hayward’?

[GoCeltics123]

For those who want Smart starting over Hayward:

Kemba-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Theis net rating: +3.4
Kemba-Brown-Hayward-Tatum-Theis net rating: +13.4

[threrf23]

We're 7-0 this season when he posts more than 5 assists and 3-0 when he turns the ball over more than twice, versus 1-3 when he scores 25+ points.

He's a better passer / point guard than anyone else on our roster, he's never been a dominant scorer (maybe in short stretches), and I'm not sure he has ever been the type of guy to get himself going. When we signed him, there was a Jazz fan who came here talking about the Jazz had designed their entire offense around him and he wouldn't necessarily be as effective in Boston. We don't need to design our offense around the guy, but we do need to make some effort to involve him more and put him in a position to succeed. He needs touches early in the shot clock, it's more important than making sure our Center sets a pick away from the basket IMO.

Short of injury, if he can't contribute a lot more than he has been contributing, it's all on Brad IMO.

[mg]

I won't knock GH but it's clear this team needs more scoring and another big man to seriously compete in the EC playoffs this season. Whether or not that could lead to a possible GH trade who knows except for Danny. With the salary structure of the roster there likely isn't a ton he can do unless it involves GH though.

[Edug27]

For those who want Smart starting over Hayward:

Kemba-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Theis net rating: +3.4
Kemba-Brown-Hayward-Tatum-Theis net rating: +13.4

Hayward is meh.. But starting Smart over him is not the answer. At all.

[Soulcatcher33]

Hayward has never been a guy who forces the issue. He pretty much always plays within the offense and that was true even on the Jazz. On the Jazz he was the clear cut best player so the offense revolved around him as it should have. I watched a lot of that 2017 Jazz team as I really liked the way they played solid team ball and he could have easily been putting up 25ppg or more on the same efficiency instead of 22 if he had wanted to. The only time he really took it upon himself and broke open the offense was during the 2017 playoffs. If you take out his sick game he was basically averaging around 25ppg on 60%ts. He's clearly not the same player he was 3 years ago when the Celtics signed him, though, from a physical standpoint. Whether he has the foot thing or not he's clearly just not explosive like he was in 2017 after the opening day injury. A lot of drives he takes now that are passes or floaters would have been dunks by that Hayward... and if not if not dunks it would be him getting to the line. That's another thing that's gone from his game because of this...he doesn't get to the line anymore. He was getting to the line 6 times a game on 15 shot attempts from 2015-2017 and it frankly should have been even more as he was constantly getting no calls.

Aside from all that, he's just playing with three guys who are looking for their shot more than they are looking for the best shot for the team like he is. Two of these guys take 18-20 shots a game and the other 15, so a lot of the time it's hard for him to get going if those guys are having nights where they are shooting a lot. I especially think him and Tatum are a bad pair together as they run a lot of the same **** for both and most of the time it's Tatum who they run it through instead of Hayward. I don't know what Brad is doing when he's with the second unit, though, having Wanamaker facilitate. That doesn't make any sense when hayward is a just a much better player. Same goes for Smart. I thought Hayward would be a good guy for Tatum and Brown to learn from, but maybe it would just be beneficial for both the team and Hayward for him to move on.

[GoGreen]

There's nothing out there that really spells value for both teams, that's the problem. Someone here suggested Drummond and Galloway for Gordon, which was intriguing... but eh. There's still more upside having Gordon than Drummond imo. Drummomd is really neutralized in today's league. And I dont think he does much of anything vs Embiid. Dudes lazy.

This team needs a true 4 with size, and toughness. Also desperately needs bench scoring. We miss Horf. Turner would be nice, but that's a pipedrean. No way Indiana trades him to us.

[Dogen]

First play of the game he put Giannis on his ass, went up to help him up off the floor and Giannis didn't even look at him..just ignored him and got back up by himself. Dude is just too nice.

He has no nasty to his game. Certainly has shown no signs of being a guy you want to go to battle with. Against the Pistons he got into the paint and had a decent game. This game he avoids the paint completely. I'm starting to wonder if he would have been any better even without the injury..this all to me looks more like Jeff Green syndrome than anything else. His confidence is clearly up and down depending on opposition and game situations.

I used to link the fact that when we played well it was because he played well..but I think it's the opposite. When we play well he plays free..you can never count on him to go outt here and do what Kemba did yesterday while the rest of the team **** it's pants. Complete beta mindset..probably worst case of it that I've ever seen. The amount of times this guy defers to Brad Wanamaker when they are in together is just bizarre.

Agree totally, Bru.

I want soooooo much for him to be consistently good.
And we see games where we blast a sub 500 team, & he facilitates very well & scores aggressively.
And then when it is time to step up in a big time game VS a very good team, he plays like a pussy playing hot potato with the ball &, like you said, deferring even to Brad & Semi. No fire. No “Paul **** Pierce give me the **** ball, mother ****”.
HE STILL HAS THE UTAH SKILLS - WE HAVE SEEN THEM MULTIPLE TIMES! Is it residual foot pain and/or does he need to be load managed like Kawhi now and/or is it his permanent mentality now - POST TRAUMATIC STRESS SYNDROME in the wake of a horrendous injury? Has the time come to get rid of him one way or another?

PS I have also had it with our emotionless, non-inspirational, pussy coach as well. I wonder if he shows any emotion when screwing his wife - maybe a slight smile when he orgasms.

Unfortunately, I agree with all of this. At the beginning of the game, Giannis (granted, on home court) was prowling around like a lion ready to take down prey. Gordon looked more like he was having a day at the office. When Giannis blew off Hayward's extended hand and then proceeded to knife through the Celtics on the next couple plays, one got a sense that a tone was being set by one team and not reciprocated by the other.

I looked at this game as litmus test for the status of the teams at about the half way point of the season -- two ostensible contenders in the EC trying to gain an advantage and assert some dominance. Hero ball from Kemba is nice in a pinch, but it didn't do much for Charlotte. This team needs Tatum and Hayward to bring it against top competition. There's no evading the point: Hayward basically wet the bed for three quarters. Just lame and hard to watch.

The great story of coach and player reunited that we all hoped for several seasons ago from Brad and Gordon tragically never really materialized. It's painful to accept, but that's the way it is. At this point I don't see any major change in that narrative. We have a very smart, diplomatic coach in Stevens and a very smart player in Hayward who's best days are either behind him, or he's just too checked out. It's not a good match anymore.

Yeah, we need more attitude. More nasty. -- More TRUTH!!!!

All props for Giannis, he's a great player, but we are going to need someone to at least make him THINK a bit before slamming the ball through the net. "The Is" tries, but is undersized. Semi tries, but otherwise has too many flaws for extended minutes on the floor. Smart, bless his heart, always tries but may just end up with a short career for all his efforts.

If our starter-caliber players like Hayward and Tatum don't step up to that challenge, and coach doesn't help instill that type of pride and attitude in the team, it's going to be another disappointing season.

No answers from me here, I know. Just whinging. I honestly don't see a trade that addresses this problem specifically. Tristan Thompson getting waived choosing the C's is my unlikely hope. The NBA is fairly enjoyable to watch, but too many nice guys who want to team up with their friends for my taste lately.

[Marvel]

Horford was routinely criticized for not being worth his contract, even garnering the nickname ‘Average Al’. Seems over time it was accepted that his value had a lot to do with intangibles, things that didn’t show up on the stat sheet every game. Add to that his playoff performances were much better than what we often became used to during the regular season, and by the time he left us, most people didn’t want to let him go. So the question is, is Hayward in the same boat? Is he more valuable to us than what shows up in his stat line? Will he have another gear come playoff time, or was last years disappointing post season what we should expect? Should we start calling him ‘Ho Hum Hayward’?

I like Try Hard better, personally.