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Captain_Caveman wrote:Curmudgeon wrote:Jaylen Brown defends. Two-way players are always underrated.
His defense is peculiar. He has some tools and the effort is mostly there, but he gets beat so often it is crazy.
greenroom31 wrote:This “4th option” stuff is a joke. Hayward is behind Jaylen offensively at this point and picks his spots. Kemba has been hurt or resting a fair number of games this season and especially lately when Jaylen has been excelling. Was Jaylen the 4th option the other night when he singlehandedly slammed the door shut on Portland?
Just be honest — this argument is really agenda-driven as unfortunately it often is on this board. A while ago some posters aggressively argued that Jaylen was overpaid and that it would somehow create problems for us in the future. Now that he is kicking ass for basically the entire season these bogus excuses have to be created to sustain and defend the agenda and are dragged out every time people get excited about Jaylen. It’s really that simple.
The part I’d like to know from those against Jaylen and his deal is what would you have done? Just let him walk and assume we’ll sign someone better for that money with the cap space? That almost always requires an overpay to acquire someone on the downside (provided you can even get them). Look no further than the complaints in this thread about Kemba and Hayward’s salaries. It also makes us worse in the near term and is bad for morale.
We got Jaylen at a solid price and he is currently on a trajectory to overperform it. Second guessing because of COVID (which no one could have reasonably been expected to factor in) is also not fair.
MagicBagley18 wrote:Floody100 wrote:Why do you guys keep arguing with Cave ? His ego’s too big to realise he was wrong about Jaylen & his contract.
The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward. That’s true IMO. The brown element is just that he never is going to be A superstar or a perennial all star
We r entering year 5 with Jaylen. He’s made a huge leap this year but I don’t think he’s a superstar or close to a perennial all star
Captain_Caveman wrote:keevsnick1 wrote:Captain_Caveman wrote:
You are arguing for value in a vacuum. I am arguing for a path to true contention. Couldn't care less if our guys are "worth the money" relative to other players in the league. I'm sure you could have made the same case for Andy Dalton as a Bengals quarterback, but the bottom line is that you don't win titles paying average money to average QBs like Andy Dalton. So what's the point? No, really. What's the point?
Ainge and the BBP aren't confused about how this works. In the NBA, you need a legit MVP candidate plus another top 10-15 guy, or two other All-Stars. If you have that, you are a contender and your bench is an afterthought. And if you don't have that, you are not a contender and your bench is still an afterthought.
I didn't mind the Hayward contract at the time because I saw how it fit holistically into our build plan. We had a legit shot at AD. Overpaying Hayward just a matter of lux tax if it facilitated that. Now? Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts not facilitating anything but being 5th place for the next five years. There's no trades to make, and no path to get to true contention. At the same time our young guys are getting older, so are our old guys. We are entirely dependent on Tatum making an MVP leap that is highly unlikely.
The idea that you win titles by having the best 3rd or 4th best player is something I reject out of hand. You win titles because your 1st and 2nd best players are better. But to answer your question, I think the Warriors and Clippers both have 3 guys better than Jaylen. Jazz and Rockets comparable. Raptors, Nuggets, and Heat all have better functional depth with better salary structures. Lakers and Bucks not far off, with far better talent at the top of the lineup.
Jaylen is no future #2 on a title team. And positive trade value? How so? Name one realistic scenario where we get a better player for Jaylen and spare parts. At best, we could make a lateral move. At best. There is no one on the team with positive trade value, which is kind of the problem.
Again I guarantee there are numerous teams who come this off season would gladly take Jaylen into cap space and give you back good draft pick(s). That's positive value.
Value to relative to player is critically important to building a contender, because a guy on a value contract is always trad-able for stuff you can use if you decide you don't want him. Jaylen has the benefit of both being on a value contract, playing a valuable position AND having upside left to explore. That's a player 9/10 of the league would want.
You say you need a MVP and another all nab or two all stars. Jaylen was getting all star buzz this season, it would shock absolutely no one if he made it next year.
I don't think we're ever going to agree on this, mostly because your evaluation of what Jaylen is right now is so far out of wack which with the median opinion on him that it makes this argument functionally impossible to have. I think Jaylen MIGHT be able to be the 2nd best player on a champion, in time. He's certainly on a similar trajectory to players like Butler, George, ect who fit that bill.
Here's a quote from Sam Vecenie's rookie scale rankings on the Athletic where he's listed under "multi time all star" referring to their ceiling.
"I don’t know that Brown has gotten enough respect in the Most Improved Player of the Year discussion. I don’t think he’d be my pick, but he deserves a place in it. The level to which he took a leap this year is staggering and he’s now a very real max player after I thought the extension the Celtics handed him early in the season was a bit questionable."
Or from an Eastern Conference executive quoted by Keith Smith:
“We had an idea of throwing him a max offer sheet as a restricted free agent, if we could make the cap space happen. If nothing else, Boston would have had to match it. Danny (Ainge) did good to get him for less than the max."
I don't agree that it is a value contract, and would define positive value as the ability to possibly get a superior return, not on whether you can be liquidated for fifty cents on the dollar. There is no way for us to improve from here. We are the best of the teams that don't matter, but they don't give trophies out for that.
keevsnick1 wrote:MagicBagley18 wrote:Floody100 wrote:Why do you guys keep arguing with Cave ? His ego’s too big to realise he was wrong about Jaylen & his contract.
The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward. That’s true IMO. The brown element is just that he never is going to be A superstar or a perennial all star
We r entering year 5 with Jaylen. He’s made a huge leap this year but I don’t think he’s a superstar or close to a perennial all star
Except its just not true, your opinion or cave's aside its just factually not. AT the very least you could dump Browns contract for absolutely nothing and literally every team would take him. So he's not at all hurting your flexibility. Again, it is clearly better to have his contract then to not because right now you could extract positive value for his contract.
And I'm also not willing to write off that he will be a multi time all star, he was close this season. Like 5+ all star appearances for his career seems totally possible to me.
MagicBagley18 wrote:Last summer before the kemba news the things we were hearing here By some were sign vucevic, sign Rubio, elaborate scenarios trying to get us Mike Conley.....we had just lost kyrie and horford. I was in favor of building around Tatum and going all in on him and the development of brown.
The kemba news came out of nowhere and I got caught up in it- I was excited we were getting another top free agent. I think it was because of all the doom and gloom and the nets getting kyrie and KD and the lakers getting AD so I wanted to celebrate the signing but in hindsight building around brown and Tatum, inserting smart as the starter and keeping Baynes prob gets us to the same spot we will end up in this years post season
themoneyteam2 wrote:MagicBagley18 wrote:Last summer before the kemba news the things we were hearing here By some were sign vucevic, sign Rubio, elaborate scenarios trying to get us Mike Conley.....we had just lost kyrie and horford. I was in favor of building around Tatum and going all in on him and the development of brown.
The kemba news came out of nowhere and I got caught up in it- I was excited we were getting another top free agent. I think it was because of all the doom and gloom and the nets getting kyrie and KD and the lakers getting AD so I wanted to celebrate the signing but in hindsight building around brown and Tatum, inserting smart as the starter and keeping Baynes prob gets us to the same spot we will end up in this years post season
A max player wanting to come to Boston to play isn’t something you turn down though. I sign an all star coming off 3rd team all-NBA without hesitating, especially considering the type of leader and teammate he is.
I guess we just have different philosophies of team building. Celtics and Clippers are only teams in league with a top 5 offense and top 5 defense. And that’s with a non-existent bench. I guess I’m higher on the currrnt team and future than you are.
The bench can improve through development and the draft. Smart is elite 6th man, Kanter is a solid backup big, and then you need 2 of Grant, Romeo, Timelord, and a rookie to be solid role players as the 8th and 9th man in a playoff rotation next year. I don’t think that’s asking for a lot. In a series you’re basically asking your 8th-10th rotation players to play a combined 25 MPG.
We can agree that Wanamaker has no business being in this league and gets far too many minutes. That’s going to be the death of this team in my opinion in playoffs if he has to play more than 10 MPG. But, I think Boston’s top 4 is going to give them a really good chance to make noise if they are all clicking. It’s really tough to try to contain Tatum, Kemba, Hayward, and Brown. At least one will have a mismatch.
MagicBagley18 wrote:themoneyteam2 wrote:MagicBagley18 wrote:Last summer before the kemba news the things we were hearing here By some were sign vucevic, sign Rubio, elaborate scenarios trying to get us Mike Conley.....we had just lost kyrie and horford. I was in favor of building around Tatum and going all in on him and the development of brown.
The kemba news came out of nowhere and I got caught up in it- I was excited we were getting another top free agent. I think it was because of all the doom and gloom and the nets getting kyrie and KD and the lakers getting AD so I wanted to celebrate the signing but in hindsight building around brown and Tatum, inserting smart as the starter and keeping Baynes prob gets us to the same spot we will end up in this years post season
A max player wanting to come to Boston to play isn’t something you turn down though. I sign an all star coming off 3rd team all-NBA without hesitating, especially considering the type of leader and teammate he is.
I guess we just have different philosophies of team building. Celtics and Clippers are only teams in league with a top 5 offense and top 5 defense. And that’s with a non-existent bench. I guess I’m higher on the currrnt team and future than you are.
The bench can improve through development and the draft. Smart is elite 6th man, Kanter is a solid backup big, and then you need 2 of Grant, Romeo, Timelord, and a rookie to be solid role players as the 8th and 9th man in a playoff rotation next year. I don’t think that’s asking for a lot. In a series you’re basically asking your 8th-10th rotation players to play a combined 25 MPG.
We can agree that Wanamaker has no business being in this league and gets far too many minutes. That’s going to be the death of this team in my opinion in playoffs if he has to play more than 10 MPG. But, I think Boston’s top 4 is going to give them a really good chance to make noise if they are all clicking. It’s really tough to try to contain Tatum, Kemba, Hayward, and Brown. At least one will have a mismatch.
All max players are not created equal...that mentality will lead your team to horrible mistakes. I appreciate your stats but they mean nothing in the post season if you don’t have a top tier mvp level talent like kawhi and then a top 10 player in PG. okc is the most clutch team in the league by stats....means squat in the playoffs. Dallas has a historical offense - they have no shot. Their Future is bright tho with Luka.
Way too much faith put into top 4 if the other teams top 2 is worlds better than what you have.
MagicBagley18 wrote:Last summer before the kemba news the things we were hearing here By some were sign vucevic, sign Rubio, elaborate scenarios trying to get us Mike Conley.....we had just lost kyrie and horford. I was in favor of building around Tatum and going all in on him and the development of brown.
The kemba news came out of nowhere and I got caught up in it- I was excited we were getting another top free agent. I think it was because of all the doom and gloom and the nets getting kyrie and KD and the lakers getting AD so I wanted to celebrate the signing but in hindsight building around brown and Tatum, inserting smart as the starter and keeping Baynes prob gets us to the same spot we will end up in this years post season
MagicBagley18 wrote:keevsnick1 wrote:MagicBagley18 wrote:
The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward. That’s true IMO. The brown element is just that he never is going to be A superstar or a perennial all star
We r entering year 5 with Jaylen. He’s made a huge leap this year but I don’t think he’s a superstar or close to a perennial all star
Except its just not true, your opinion or cave's aside its just factually not. AT the very least you could dump Browns contract for absolutely nothing and literally every team would take him. So he's not at all hurting your flexibility. Again, it is clearly better to have his contract then to not because right now you could extract positive value for his contract.
And I'm also not willing to write off that he will be a multi time all star, he was close this season. Like 5+ all star appearances for his career seems totally possible to me.
Neither is yours. You can be willing Or not willing to write off whatever you want, god bless you. Year 5 soon for Jaylen not 1 all star game and your predicting 5+ throughout his career....ok. Doubtful.
Not hurting our flexibility? Tatum is getting a max soon, Hayward is opting in for 32 and kemba is on a max for the remaining years with a gimpy knee. He’s an undersized pg with knee issues that’s 30+. This where you choose to place your championship faith ? Not me. Jaylen is overrated here. It’s ok. we’ve seen this before IT, Bradley, Jefferson, the list goes on and on.
Where’s the maneuverability to get a superstar? Trading Tatum is not an option- defeats the whole purpose. how do we even add to the bench with that much salary obligation in the offseason for an actual difference maker? yet you say there’s no issue in terms of flexibility? Hayward is a good playe, kemba is a good player and good players get you good results- 55 wins and an ECF finals visit where we get used like a door mat.......aren’t we all about banners? I’m confused.
Our best chance at a ring is putting all our chips in on Tatum and hoping and praying he becomes a top 5 player or that Jaylen Somehow takes some astronomical leap (which I hope he does, I root for the team to be successful).
greenroom31 wrote:This “4th option” stuff is a joke. Hayward is behind Jaylen offensively at this point and picks his spots. Kemba has been hurt or resting a fair number of games this season and especially lately when Jaylen has been excelling. Was Jaylen the 4th option the other night when he singlehandedly slammed the door shut on Portland?
Just be honest — this argument is really agenda-driven as unfortunately it often is on this board. A while ago some posters aggressively argued that Jaylen was overpaid and that it would somehow create problems for us in the future. Now that he is kicking ass for basically the entire season these bogus excuses have to be created to sustain and defend the agenda and are dragged out every time people get excited about Jaylen. It’s really that simple.
The part I’d like to know from those against Jaylen and his deal is what would you have done? Just let him walk and assume we’ll sign someone better for that money with the cap space? That almost always requires an overpay to acquire someone on the downside (provided you can even get them). Look no further than the complaints in this thread about Kemba and Hayward’s salaries. It also makes us worse in the near term and is bad for morale.
We got Jaylen at a solid price and he is currently on a trajectory to overperform it. Second guessing because of COVID (which no one could have reasonably been expected to factor in) is also not fair.
zoyathedestroya wrote:
... and as soon as BBRef updates their data, Cs team this season could overtake the 1986-87 team for 2nd best offensive rating in franchise history.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/
Captain_Caveman wrote:greenroom31 wrote:This “4th option” stuff is a joke. Hayward is behind Jaylen offensively at this point and picks his spots. Kemba has been hurt or resting a fair number of games this season and especially lately when Jaylen has been excelling. Was Jaylen the 4th option the other night when he singlehandedly slammed the door shut on Portland?
Just be honest — this argument is really agenda-driven as unfortunately it often is on this board. A while ago some posters aggressively argued that Jaylen was overpaid and that it would somehow create problems for us in the future. Now that he is kicking ass for basically the entire season these bogus excuses have to be created to sustain and defend the agenda and are dragged out every time people get excited about Jaylen. It’s really that simple.
The part I’d like to know from those against Jaylen and his deal is what would you have done? Just let him walk and assume we’ll sign someone better for that money with the cap space? That almost always requires an overpay to acquire someone on the downside (provided you can even get them). Look no further than the complaints in this thread about Kemba and Hayward’s salaries. It also makes us worse in the near term and is bad for morale.
We got Jaylen at a solid price and he is currently on a trajectory to overperform it. Second guessing because of COVID (which no one could have reasonably been expected to factor in) is also not fair.
As stated endlessly, I would have sucked it up and given Jaylen that same contract. It just isn't the win people think it is, and emblematic of the death of our rebuild.
FWIW, I have always been denigrated as an agenda guy, but the agenda is championships. And without fail, I have ended up proven correct on these major debates over a 12-year timeframe. Period.