The Trade Thread, 2016-17 (2.0)

[BakersDozen]

I would be shocked if Dirk ever gets traded by Dallas. Don't care how bad they are.


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[jmr07019]

If I'm trying to put a title team together quickly I think you need to trade for one of Butler or George and then sign Griffin in FA.

Crowder, Brown, Rozier, KO, zizic, yabs 2017 Brooklyn pick, 2018 Brooklyn pick, Memphis pick and they have to at least think about it right?

Sign Griffin.

Smart
Bradley
George
Griffin
Horford
6th man - IT

Damn... I thought IT had quieted the 6th man talk down with his ~26 PER

I'm one of the biggest IT supporters on this board but if you have Paul George AND Blake Griffin then I would go with more D and less O next to them. On this current team IT should be and will be starting it's not even a question.

[bucknersrevenge]

Brown is not playing because he isn't producing. If you want him to play him despite his performance, send him to the Lakers. Ingram has been awful. As has Kris dunn. I think brown is playing as much as he deserves.

I'm not suggesting he deserves 20+ minutes a night nor am I suggesting Brad give him that kind of time regardless. I was just using those examples to prove his argument that is was "unprecedented" to have a guy Jaylen's age playing significant minutes is just flat out false.

What I am saying though is that it shouldn't be a pure meritocracy when you've got a #3 pick on your bench. When and where possible he should be rolled out there even if he's not producing so he gets more opportunities to learn. It's the best way to get him to develop quicker.

I'm fine with games like tonight where Green has the hot hand and Brown gets a handful of minutes because of it. But despite his failure to produce thus far, he needs to keep getting opportunities.

Right but you have to take into count this is not the usual situation for a high lotto pick to land in, no? #3 picks usually get plenty of run automatically...cuz they're usually drafted by bad teams. They don't wind up on playoff teams. Plus, he's 19. I mean....he's NINETEEN. Did I forget to mention that he's 19? I don't think that can be overstated. Think about what you were doing with your life at that age and then imagine trying to play NBA basketball. He will take some time. But it's okay because he has plenty of it. Know why? It's because he's 19.

EDIT: Actually he's 20 now but the point still stands even if it read cooler saying 19.

[Valid]

It's an odd strategy to have a guy on the block and then start giving him DNPs.

He's already shown his worth, they don't want to get him injured. Noel is also in the same position.

They're not playing Noel because they are trying to showcase Okafor to move him, but that's JMO.

They are going to try to move both of them.

Noel is set to be an RFA this summer. With Embiid up front and Simmons waiting in the wings, they're not signing him back.

I'd be very surprised if the 76ers don't try to re-home Noel before the deadline rather than lose him for nothing in the offseason.

[Ed Pinkney]

I need rumours, rumours, rumours is what I need (hey, hey).

[jrob23]

Brown is not playing because he isn't producing. If you want him to play him despite his performance, send him to the Lakers. Ingram has been awful. As has Kris dunn. I think brown is playing as much as he deserves.

I'm not suggesting he deserves 20+ minutes a night nor am I suggesting Brad give him that kind of time regardless. I was just using those examples to prove his argument that is was "unprecedented" to have a guy Jaylen's age playing significant minutes is just flat out false.

What I am saying though is that it shouldn't be a pure meritocracy when you've got a #3 pick on your bench. When and where possible he should be rolled out there even if he's not producing so he gets more opportunities to learn. It's the best way to get him to develop quicker.

I'm fine with games like tonight where Green has the hot hand and Brown gets a handful of minutes because of it. But despite his failure to produce thus far, he needs to keep getting opportunities.

Right but you have to take into count this is not the usual situation for a high lotto pick to land in, no? #3 picks usually get plenty of run automatically...cuz they're usually drafted by bad teams. They don't wind up on playoff teams. Plus, he's 19. I mean....he's NINETEEN. Did I forget to mention that he's 19? I don't think that can be overstated. Think about what you were doing with your life at that age and then imagine trying to play NBA basketball. He will take some time. But it's okay because he has plenty of it. Know why? It's because he's 19.

EDIT: Actually he's 20 now but the point still stands even if it read cooler saying 19.

yeah, once you accept he's actually 20 it makes it harder to justify sitting him because of his age and how "raw" he is. There have been dozens of very raw and much younger players taken and playing on good teams like ours. He's already proven he has the talent. Anyone saying he's raw or isn't producing isn't watching. You cannot put up numbers when you are not given the ball or having the coach give you the freedom or plays to score. This is how his possessions usually go:

There will be a defensive rebound. Brown will sprint down the floor and have a lane to the basket because of his supreme speed and athleticism and nobody on the team either looks his way or can make the pass. So he ends up, as scripted, parked in the corner (outside shot not his strength) to help spread the floor. Maybe they have him accept a pass but his role is to then pass it along or set a screen for someone than he rotates elsewhere beyond the arc. On EVERY singe possession, he will have either a mismatch because he's quicker than the guy guarding him, or he's bigger and can post up the guy guarding him..yet they never ISO for him. When he has had plays run for him it has mostly ended up with a quality shot, assist, or he goes to the line.

Where he's struggled is he sees he gets no chances and he so badly wants to impress, so on rare occasions he'll get a defensive rebound and try to take it coast to coast and he'll turn it over trying to do too much. For the most part, he is developed terribly. He gets yanked when he misses a second open shot yet everyone else can lay bricks for games on end. He gets yanked if a guy he's defending makes a shot despite him hotly contesting it. He gets yanked when he goes off his man to make up for bad defense by a teammate to contest a shot and that guy makes it. No kidding. He has the shortest leash imaginable.

If you gave Brown starter minutes he's going to produce. I'm guessing he'd put up better than the 13-5-2 Crowder is giving us. Yep, there are people out there that actually think he couldn't. Why? That production is baseline for what a SF should give you. And spare me about Crowder's defense. It's passable. Like AB's, it's no longer something his fanboys can point to as a positive but probably worse so for him than AB who can still be elite on ball one on one.

Brown should be able to give us 15-5-3 with starter minutes. I was hoping we'd see that and he'd take a huge leap going into next season so that he's putting up 20+. But at this rate, with this development..we're not going to know what we have.

Right now, despite them never running plays for Brown...his PER 36 isn't far off of Crowder's. Oh well, it's getting to be about beating a dead horse. It is what it is. Brad isn't going to suddenly be a developer of young talent.

Is anyone else worried about the BK picks? Seeing how Brown is deployed? Worried that we are putting so much stock/hope in the elite BK picks being our savior but not factoring in that that player may not even get 10 minutes a game? I'm sure Danny is noticing and it might be affecting whether he keeps those picks. He might as well trade them knowing there's little chance these players will be developed and ready to make us dominant in a few years.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Spoiler:

yeah, once you accept he's actually 20 it makes it harder to justify sitting him because of his age and how "raw" he is. There have been dozens of very raw and much younger players taken and playing on good teams like ours. He's already proven he has the talent. Anyone saying he's raw or isn't producing isn't watching. You cannot put up numbers when you are not given the ball or having the coach give you the freedom or plays to score. This is how his possessions usually go:

There will be a defensive rebound. Brown will sprint down the floor and have a lane to the basket because of his supreme speed and athleticism and nobody on the team either looks his way or can make the pass. So he ends up, as scripted, parked in the corner (outside shot not his strength) to help spread the floor. Maybe they have him accept a pass but his role is to then pass it along or set a screen for someone than he rotates elsewhere beyond the arc. On EVERY singe possession, he will have either a mismatch because he's quicker than the guy guarding him, or he's bigger and can post up the guy guarding him..yet they never ISO for him. When he has had plays run for him it has mostly ended up with a quality shot, assist, or he goes to the line.

Where he's struggled is he sees he gets no chances and he so badly wants to impress, so on rare occasions he'll get a defensive rebound and try to take it coast to coast and he'll turn it over trying to do too much. For the most part, he is developed terribly. He gets yanked when he misses a second open shot yet everyone else can lay bricks for games on end. He gets yanked if a guy he's defending makes a shot despite him hotly contesting it. He gets yanked when he goes off his man to make up for bad defense by a teammate to contest a shot and that guy makes it. No kidding. He has the shortest leash imaginable.

If you gave Brown starter minutes he's going to produce. I'm guessing he'd put up better than the 13-5-2 Crowder is giving us. Yep, there are people out there that actually think he couldn't. Why? That production is baseline for what a SF should give you. And spare me about Crowder's defense. It's passable. Like AB's, it's no longer something his fanboys can point to as a positive but probably worse so for him than AB who can still be elite on ball one on one.

Brown should be able to give us 15-5-3 with starter minutes. I was hoping we'd see that and he'd take a huge leap going into next season so that he's putting up 20+. But at this rate, with this development..we're not going to know what we have.

Right now, despite them never running plays for Brown...his PER 36 isn't far off of Crowder's. Oh well, it's getting to be about beating a dead horse. It is what it is. Brad isn't going to suddenly be a developer of young talent.

Is anyone else worried about the BK picks? Seeing how Brown is deployed? Worried that we are putting so much stock/hope in the elite BK picks being our savior but not factoring in that that player may not even get 10 minutes a game? I'm sure Danny is noticing and it might be affecting whether he keeps those picks. He might as well trade them knowing there's little chance these players will be developed and ready to make us dominant in a few years.

Agreed. Unless we pick Josh Jackson (who will be a plus defender day 1), our BKN17 pick is not going to play next year. Because of this, I'm for trading BKN17/Brown/filler for Butler. Rather have that than a young kid who will be glued to the bench.

[AgentGreen]

Man... Someones going to make a move on Bogut soon and i hope its us. We only need a inside presence thats all, someone who can crash the glas for us. I really think that we can seriously make it to the ECF with him.

I hope that Cuban is realising its time to tank now for the Mavs. Just send the vets like Dirk to a team where he can fight for another ring and start the tank.

What would it cost us to get Bogut?

I'm more interested in Dirk. Maybe a worse fit but certainly a better player. Would Cuban help out Dirk and send him to a contender for his final year? Does Dirk even want that? If the answers are yes we are one of the few pretenders that can send out salary to match Dirk's 20 million dollar deal. Amir + Zeller + 2nds = Dirk.

Dirk on a vet minimum would be nice for our rotation. But it still wont solve our rebounding issues. Besides that Dirk isn't putting up great numbers anymore, he's getting old.

[AgentGreen]

I need rumours, rumours, rumours is what I need (hey, hey).

Just wait after new year.

[bucknersrevenge]

I'm not suggesting he deserves 20+ minutes a night nor am I suggesting Brad give him that kind of time regardless. I was just using those examples to prove his argument that is was "unprecedented" to have a guy Jaylen's age playing significant minutes is just flat out false.

What I am saying though is that it shouldn't be a pure meritocracy when you've got a #3 pick on your bench. When and where possible he should be rolled out there even if he's not producing so he gets more opportunities to learn. It's the best way to get him to develop quicker.

I'm fine with games like tonight where Green has the hot hand and Brown gets a handful of minutes because of it. But despite his failure to produce thus far, he needs to keep getting opportunities.

Right but you have to take into count this is not the usual situation for a high lotto pick to land in, no? #3 picks usually get plenty of run automatically...cuz they're usually drafted by bad teams. They don't wind up on playoff teams. Plus, he's 19. I mean....he's NINETEEN. Did I forget to mention that he's 19? I don't think that can be overstated. Think about what you were doing with your life at that age and then imagine trying to play NBA basketball. He will take some time. But it's okay because he has plenty of it. Know why? It's because he's 19.

EDIT: Actually he's 20 now but the point still stands even if it read cooler saying 19.

yeah, once you accept he's actually 20 it makes it harder to justify sitting him because of his age and how "raw" he is. There have been dozens of very raw and much younger players taken and playing on good teams like ours. He's already proven he has the talent. Anyone saying he's raw or isn't producing isn't watching. You cannot put up numbers when you are not given the ball or having the coach give you the freedom or plays to score. This is how his possessions usually go:

There will be a defensive rebound. Brown will sprint down the floor and have a lane to the basket because of his supreme speed and athleticism and nobody on the team either looks his way or can make the pass. So he ends up, as scripted, parked in the corner (outside shot not his strength) to help spread the floor. Maybe they have him accept a pass but his role is to then pass it along or set a screen for someone than he rotates elsewhere beyond the arc. On EVERY singe possession, he will have either a mismatch because he's quicker than the guy guarding him, or he's bigger and can post up the guy guarding him..yet they never ISO for him. When he has had plays run for him it has mostly ended up with a quality shot, assist, or he goes to the line.

Where he's struggled is he sees he gets no chances and he so badly wants to impress, so on rare occasions he'll get a defensive rebound and try to take it coast to coast and he'll turn it over trying to do too much. For the most part, he is developed terribly. He gets yanked when he misses a second open shot yet everyone else can lay bricks for games on end. He gets yanked if a guy he's defending makes a shot despite him hotly contesting it. He gets yanked when he goes off his man to make up for bad defense by a teammate to contest a shot and that guy makes it. No kidding. He has the shortest leash imaginable.

If you gave Brown starter minutes he's going to produce. I'm guessing he'd put up better than the 13-5-2 Crowder is giving us. Yep, there are people out there that actually think he couldn't. Why? That production is baseline for what a SF should give you. And spare me about Crowder's defense. It's passable. Like AB's, it's no longer something his fanboys can point to as a positive but probably worse so for him than AB who can still be elite on ball one on one.

Brown should be able to give us 15-5-3 with starter minutes. I was hoping we'd see that and he'd take a huge leap going into next season so that he's putting up 20+. But at this rate, with this development..we're not going to know what we have.

Right now, despite them never running plays for Brown...his PER 36 isn't far off of Crowder's. Oh well, it's getting to be about beating a dead horse. It is what it is. Brad isn't going to suddenly be a developer of young talent.

Is anyone else worried about the BK picks? Seeing how Brown is deployed? Worried that we are putting so much stock/hope in the elite BK picks being our savior but not factoring in that that player may not even get 10 minutes a game? I'm sure Danny is noticing and it might be affecting whether he keeps those picks. He might as well trade them knowing there's little chance these players will be developed and ready to make us dominant in a few years.

Whatever Brown would score in starters minutes he would give back twice over in return because he cannot play consistent NBA defense yet. The turnovers going coast to coast don't bother me. I can't speak for Brad but I'd be surprised if it bothered him either. Brad has often overlooked offensive over-aggressiveness. What he does have a problem with, and what he will take you out for is looking lost on defense. Not knowing where to be. Also if you're not being aggressive enough on offense too for that matter. Jaylen doesn't know where his shots are in this offense yet and you can still see him thinking out there on D as well. Whatever you think of Crawford's defense it is SIGNIFICANTLY better than what Brown would give us right now. And I'm not why 20 would make a big difference over 19. It's still young. Considering the overall age of our team I'd say Brad is doing fine. I say this all the time. Guys have to earn minutes here. This isn't Philly. And just because you don't see them on the court doesn't mean they're not developing.

EDIT: One other thing. Anyone expecting 20 year old players to be saviors for this or any other team...yeah I'd be worried.

[CeltsfaninDC]

Agreed. Unless we pick Josh Jackson (who will be a plus defender day 1), our BKN17 pick is not going to play next year. Because of this, I'm for trading BKN17/Brown/filler for Butler. Rather have that than a young kid who will be glued to the bench.

This is the best argument for using the BKL picks to obtain the right player that can move this team forward now. The lottery is named perfectly - its a crap shoot at best.

[Curmudgeon]

Brown's lack of playing time has absolutely nothing to do with his defense, which is strong for a rookie. He's not playing because he can't shoot, and the team needs more scoring, not more defense. He's also fighting for minutes over Crowder, Smart and Jerebko, all of whom are pretty good and much more experienced.

[fallguy]

Agreed. Unless we pick Josh Jackson (who will be a plus defender day 1), our BKN17 pick is not going to play next year. Because of this, I'm for trading BKN17/Brown/filler for Butler. Rather have that than a young kid who will be glued to the bench.

This is the best argument for using the BKL picks to obtain the right player that can move this team forward now. The lottery is named perfectly - its a crap shoot at best.

That pick isn't moving before the lottery unless the C's are landing a far better player than Jimmy Butler.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Brown's lack of playing time has absolutely nothing to do with his defense, which is strong for a rookie. He's not playing because he can't shoot, and the team needs more scoring, not more defense. He's also fighting for minutes over Crowder, Smart and Jerebko, all of whom are pretty good and much more experienced.

Would be interesting to know what the FO thinks of him now - probably that he's 3-4 years away.

I get it - we don't hand minutes to young players, and we make them meet the same standards of execution and reliability as everyone else. It's an ethos.

But Brown is 3-4 years away from being a steady player, he's not 3-4 years away from having nights that win you games. He'll lose you plenty, too - but the talent is visible, and there's something to be said for letting him freelance once in awhile. If we were good enough to get a few big leads, there'd be room to put him on the court.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I just hope IT 1.0 isn't in Jaylen's ear telling him he should be starting and that the team doesn't appreciate him.

[fallguy]

Brown's lack of playing time has absolutely nothing to do with his defense, which is strong for a rookie. He's not playing because he can't shoot, and the team needs more scoring, not more defense. He's also fighting for minutes over Crowder, Smart and Jerebko, all of whom are pretty good and much more experienced.

Would be interesting to know what the FO thinks of him now - probably that he's 3-4 years away.

I get it - we don't hand minutes to young players, and we make them meet the same standards of execution and reliability as everyone else. It's an ethos.

But Brown is 3-4 years away from being a steady player, he's not 3-4 years away from having nights that win you games. He'll lose you plenty, too - but the talent is visible, and there's something to be said for letting him freelance once in awhile. If we were good enough to get a few big leads, there'd be room to put him on the court.

It was referenced on a podcast recently but I was at Sloan when Stan Van Gundy wondered aloud if force-feeding minutes to young guys actually does help them improve faster than practice time, off-court work, etc. In years past, plenty of eventual impact players were on the bench for their first season, if not more.

Really hard to be too upset that two months into his career Brown's playing time is up and down. A year from now we could argue differently but right now there's a lot of impatience out there.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Agreed. Unless we pick Josh Jackson (who will be a plus defender day 1), our BKN17 pick is not going to play next year. Because of this, I'm for trading BKN17/Brown/filler for Butler. Rather have that than a young kid who will be glued to the bench.

This is the best argument for using the BKL picks to obtain the right player that can move this team forward now. The lottery is named perfectly - its a crap shoot at best.

That pick isn't moving before the lottery unless the C's are landing a far better player than Jimmy Butler.

What? Jimmy Butler is a top 10 player in the league, a two way star and only 27 years old. He's signed for 3 more years and cheap money too. Pre-lottery? There's a FAR better chance that we draft a bust than a guy who even approaches Jimmy Butlers level.

This draft is deep. I've watched many of these prospects play and they're all impressive. But they are so far away from Butlers level and so much could go wrong. It's patently absurd to say you'll only trade a pre-lottery draft pick for someone far better than a top 10 guy.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

This whole notion of force feeding minutes to a player based on his draft position is trash. You sound like a bunch of entitled millenials. If Brown wants more playing time, then he can do it the old fashioned way and earn them through his play.

[fallguy]

This is the best argument for using the BKL picks to obtain the right player that can move this team forward now. The lottery is named perfectly - its a crap shoot at best.

That pick isn't moving before the lottery unless the C's are landing a far better player than Jimmy Butler.

What? Jimmy Butler is a top 10 player in the league, a two way star and only 27 years old. He's signed for 3 more years and cheap money too. Pre-lottery? There's a FAR better chance that we draft a bust than a guy who even approaches Jimmy Butlers level.

This draft is deep. I've watched many of these prospects play and they're all impressive. But they are so far away from Butlers level and so much could go wrong. It's patently absurd to say you'll only trade a pre-lottery draft pick for someone far better than a top 10 guy.

The Celtics want to know where that pick is before they move it. Unless the return is an absolute franchise changer. That's not Butler. I wouldn't put Butler in the top-10 guys in the league. Even with Butler Boston still taps out to Cleveland. If they even get there.

[SmartWentCrazy]

That pick isn't moving before the lottery unless the C's are landing a far better player than Jimmy Butler.

What? Jimmy Butler is a top 10 player in the league, a two way star and only 27 years old. He's signed for 3 more years and cheap money too. Pre-lottery? There's a FAR better chance that we draft a bust than a guy who even approaches Jimmy Butlers level.

This draft is deep. I've watched many of these prospects play and they're all impressive. But they are so far away from Butlers level and so much could go wrong. It's patently absurd to say you'll only trade a pre-lottery draft pick for someone far better than a top 10 guy.

The Celtics want to know where that pick is before they move it. Unless the return is an absolute franchise changer. That's not Butler. I wouldn't put Butler in the top-10 guys in the league. Even with Butler Boston still taps out to Cleveland. If they even get there.

Maybe. But even if it's #1 overall, chances are it'll be 5-7 years before they'll even approach Butlers level on a best case scenario. Most likely scenario is the pick will be a fringe all-star who never approaches Butlers current level.

With Butler, you're one piece away. You may not beat Cleveland this year, but you have all the flexibility in the world to get him this off season and seriously compete with the big boys.

Eventually we're gunna have to take a risk. The picks are nice, but, despite how much I love Fultz, there are no generational guys in this draft and no sure things.