Trade Post-Mortem 2017: Eight is Enough

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You gotta think the pitch to Hayward is centered around A) Brad B) an easier path in the East C) Celts long term outlook and willingness of ownership to go well into luxury tax territory to compete which Utah mostl likely won't.

[ConstableGeneva]

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[GoCeltics123]

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Aka Danny called them like 50 times

[London2Boston]

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"Hey Phil. Rozier,Jerebko and 2nd Rounder..what do you think?"

[claycarver]

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The Knicks need to back up a few years to get out from under Anthony, Noah, and Lee's contracts. If we trade them the BK pick this year, they could set themselves up with Fultz/Ball and take Monk/Issac with their own pick. Tank next year and shoot for another young stud. I'd throw Smart in with the BK pick, but I don't know if much more than that makes sense. If Zingis wants out, this would be a good way for the Knicks to turn lemons into lemonade.

On our end, dropping the BK pick and smart off the salary puts us in good shape financially to sign Hayward.

Horford, Porzingis, Hayward, Avery, IT

Zizic, Yabs, Jae, Brown, Rozier

Could use a couple vets but that looks about done to me.

[Roddy]

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"Hey Phil. Rozier,Jerebko and 2nd Rounder..what do you think?"

"Are you kidding me Danny ??? You are trying to rip me off with this trade. I don't want this Jerebko guy..............I would prefer this James Young guy, he is a better fit for my triangle offense...".

[brackdan70]

assuming no Hayward, No Griffin, No trade for George or Butler, and no Porzingas (LOL). Is Ibaka a good FA target for us. I am mixed a little on him, It seems like he could potentially be a good fit next to Horford.

I don't think he would command a max salary but I assume his agents will use Horfords contract as pretty fair comp.
I think he will get plenty of offers in that range...maybe 4/110 with a 2017-2018 salary around 26 million. Is it worth it?

[Valid]

assuming no Hayward, No Griffin, No trade for George or Butler, and no Porzingas (LOL). Is Ibaka a good FA target for us. I am mixed a little on him, It seems like he could potentially be a good fit next to Horford.

I don't think he would command a max salary but I assume his agents will use Horfords contract as pretty fair comp.
I think he will get plenty of offers in that range...maybe 4/110 with a 2017-2018 salary around 26 million. Is it worth it?

HELL no. He has been declining for several years now and was getting beat off the dribble all the way out on the perimeter by Kevin Love last night.

The Ibaka we saw four years ago is long gone. He is barely a shell of what he once was. People have even speculated that he is older than he says he is, which could explain the steady dropoff over the last few seasons.

[lon3lytoaster]

assuming no Hayward, No Griffin, No trade for George or Butler, and no Porzingas (LOL). Is Ibaka a good FA target for us. I am mixed a little on him, It seems like he could potentially be a good fit next to Horford.

I don't think he would command a max salary but I assume his agents will use Horfords contract as pretty fair comp.
I think he will get plenty of offers in that range...maybe 4/110 with a 2017-2018 salary around 26 million. Is it worth it?

I'd pass on ibaka. I would have taken him as a rental on the cheap at the deadline to kind of test the waters for where we'd be with a better player than Amir but he's cooked.

No way am I giving him a multi-year deal. If you really bottom out with Hayward, Griffin and George just draft who you think is the best guy and keep it moving.

[Zaschrona]

If Hayward agrees to sign here, do we then trade both BKN picks for Porzingis? That starting line-up could be absolutely special!

IT/AB/Hayward/Porzingis/Horford
Rozier/Smart/Brown/Crowder/Zizic
Jackson/Green/Nader/Yabusele/FA

[klemen4]

If Hayward agrees to sign here, do we then trade both BKN picks for Porzingis? That starting line-up could be absolutely special!

IT/AB/Hayward/Porzingis/Horford
Rozier/Smart/Brown/Crowder/Zizic
Jackson/Green/Nader/Yabusele/FA

Both brooklyn for Porzingis...hell phill could be tempted by this offer. Knicks could rebuild by :
Brooklyn 17 top 4
Knicks 17 nb.7
Knicks top 3 in 18
Brooklyn top 8 in 18

A hell of a young team

[ConstableGeneva]

What was that all about??

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[CelticsLV]

What was that all about??

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Meh, probably more to do with Melo and Clippers. KP is his biggest supporter.

[BannerStatus]

If Hayward agrees to sign here, do we then trade both BKN picks for Porzingis? That starting line-up could be absolutely special!

IT/AB/Hayward/Porzingis/Horford
Rozier/Smart/Brown/Crowder/Zizic
Jackson/Green/Nader/Yabusele/FA

Both brooklyn for Porzingis...hell phill could be tempted by this offer. Knicks could rebuild by :
Brooklyn 17 top 4
Knicks 17 nb.7
Knicks top 3 in 18
Brooklyn top 8 in 18

A hell of a young team

I'd much rather keep the players and picks and contend now and be set up for the future as well. Sure would be nice to have KP in that starting five. I'd rather take my chances with Zizic and keep the assets.
*edited spelling

[165bows]

Should try to get one of these guys this summer.

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[165bows]

Thinking more on IT - most they should offer is a four year max deal on the regular max for his year's played.

That will still beat out any other team financially, plus avoids the likely overpaid back end.

That's the ceiling to start from.

[claycarver]

Thinking more on IT - most they should offer is a four year max deal on the regular max for his year's played.

That will still beat out any other team financially, plus avoids the likely overpaid back end.

That's the ceiling to start from.

Exactly. And this staggers the contract end dates well, too. Horford drops off when Brown gets paid, Hayward will be 31 and his contract expires when BK 17' gets paid, Thomas will be 33 when his contract rolls off for BK 18.

Everything lines up for a 4 year contract.

[soxfan2003]

Thinking more on IT - most they should offer is a four year max deal on the regular max for his year's played.

That will still beat out any other team financially, plus avoids the likely overpaid back end.

That's the ceiling to start from.

I know my post will come across as negative but I like to be a truth teller.

IT is probably the best under 6ft scorer I have seen play basketball in my life since I never saw Archibald at his best but unfortunately his height makes in impossible for Boston to let's say beat Cleveland (if healthy) in a series. On offense and certainly not defense, I do give IT the edge over Iverson since he is simply the superior shooter from 3 and the free throw line and that makes up for Iverson's advantages as an athlete.

Let's just look at things logically, Lebron aggressively doubled, all things considered may be the 2nd best passer in NBA history in those situations only behind Magic. IT probably average. That is just a tremendous edge to Cavs. And then playoff Lebron is one of the best defenders in the entire NBA and IT one of the worst.

Now its obviously totally unfair to compare any player to Lebron and ridicule him for not being close but if the Celtics want to win a championship and have IT at a high enough usage to justify even a 20 million dollar salary that is what Boston is up against.

And let's face it, the only way that a huge salary for an aging IT can even begin to be justified is he is the teams leading scorer and getting 25+ PPG.

Problem is Cleveland plays the same sort of game as Boston in trying to spread the floor and they have Lebron as the person to score and pass while Boston has IT. I believe that is just a losing formula in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022. Even when Lebron is 40 that may be a losing formula.

I believe its time to be honest with what it takes to beat Golden State and the Cavs.

Celtics are very unlikely to ever do it paying IT big money and playing him big minutes. IT in all honesty fits a little bit better against Golden State than he does against Cavs because at least against Golden State (in theory) in a bench role he could be used a bit to try to wear out Curry/Klay. Curry is less likely to post up IT as well or attack the rim.

And the game doesn't become a 1 on 1 contest between IT with 4 shooters constantly doubled vs Lebron with a bunch of shooters needing to be doubled.

But the basic problem is IT just lowers even with Steven's Boston's potential on the defensive end way too much and the C's have to get past two historically great offenses.

How does Boston ever in a 7 game series out score Lebron/Irving/Love/<bunch of 3 point shooters/ring chasers> et cetera? I see it as virtually impossible.
And Warriors are even better.

Ainge paying IT the max is pulling a fraud over the Celtics fans unless he has the honesty of an ML Carr when Carr signed Dana Barros. When Carr signed Dana Barros and a player like Wilkins, he made it clear that the C's had no chance and they were just entertainment signings since the Celtics were *******.

Ainge has spent the last 4 years gathering assets and I'd much rather see him go with something that has a chance to win. It may mean starting over and trying to peak/look promising when Anthony Davis/Leonard may be free agents but that seems a better plan than betting on IT as the Celtics leading scorer to beat Cavs/GS.

In a draft of all NBA players, I take Curry, KD, Klay and Green all before IT.

[165bows]

Thinking more on IT - most they should offer is a four year max deal on the regular max for his year's played.

That will still beat out any other team financially, plus avoids the likely overpaid back end.

That's the ceiling to start from.

I know my post will come across as negative but I like to be a truth teller.

IT is probably the best under 6ft scorer I have seen play basketball in my life since I never saw Archibald at his best but unfortunately his height makes in impossible for Boston to let's say beat Cleveland (if healthy) in a series. On offense and certainly not defense, I do give IT the edge over Iverson since he is simply the superior shooter from 3 and the free throw line and that makes up for Iverson's advantages as an athlete.

Let's just look at things logically, Lebron aggressively doubled, all things considered may be the 2nd best passer in NBA history in those situations only behind Magic. IT probably average. That is just a tremendous edge to Cavs. And then playoff Lebron is one of the best defenders in the entire NBA and IT one of the worst.

Now its obviously totally unfair to compare any player to Lebron and ridicule him for not being close but if the Celtics want to win a championship and have IT at a high enough usage to justify even a 20 million dollar salary that is what Boston is up against.

And let's face it, the only way that a huge salary for an aging IT can even begin to be justified is he is the teams leading scorer and getting 25+ PPG.

Problem is Cleveland plays the same sort of game as Boston in trying to spread the floor and they have Lebron as the person to score and pass while Boston has IT. I believe that is just a losing formula in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022. Even when Lebron is 40 that may be a losing formula.

I believe its time to be honest with what it takes to beat Golden State and the Cavs.

Celtics are very unlikely to ever do it paying IT big money and playing him big minutes. IT in all honesty fits a little bit better against Golden State than he does against Cavs because at least against Golden State (in theory) in a bench role he could be used a bit to try to wear out Curry/Klay. Curry is less likely to post up IT as well or attack the rim.

And the game doesn't become a 1 on 1 contest between IT with 4 shooters constantly doubled vs Lebron with a bunch of shooters needing to be doubled.

But the basic problem is IT just lowers even with Steven's Boston's potential on the defensive end way too much and the C's have to get past two historically great offenses.

How does Boston ever in a 7 game series out score Lebron/Irving/Love/<bunch of 3 point shooters/ring chasers> et cetera? I see it as virtually impossible.
And Warriors are even better.

Ainge paying IT the max is pulling a fraud over the Celtics fans unless he has the honesty of an ML Carr when Carr signed Dana Barros. When Carr signed Dana Barros and a player like Wilkins, he made it clear that the C's had no chance and they were just entertainment signings since the Celtics were *******.

Ainge has spent the last 4 years gathering assets and I'd much rather see him go with something that has a chance to win. It may mean starting over and trying to peak/look promising when Anthony Davis/Leonard may be free agents but that seems a better plan than betting on IT as the Celtics leading scorer to beat Cavs/GS.

In a draft of all NBA players, I take Curry, KD, Klay and Green all before IT.

I don't think you are being overly negative and I think this is in general a fair take. I do think you are being overly optimistic about the play of the elite teams we are seeing now. LeBron thought they were going to win 5+ titles in Miami, even if he stayed they may have maxed out at 2. Cleveland is great right now but they will continue to be an old team that is not that athletic outside of James. GS more than anything will run into $ issues trying to retain all 4 of their top guys.

The thing about play style, that is what all teams will do from now on, the benefits of a spaced floor will continue until the rules change. Cleveland's ability to put four other shooters around LeBron may change however, considering that they also need to be able to play defense. Even one shooter going cold allows a player to sag into the basket full time for help, how teams have killed Boston with Smart or Rondo on the floor. LeBron mitigates that by being the best and most versatile player, but guys lose their lift as you know and that will diminish LeBron. He will be 35 in 3 years and pretty much no one still keeps their lift at 35. That day, hard to imagine as it is, is coming for LeBron.

So my main point was how to think about what Isaiah's market is. No one else can offer more than a four year deal, and even then the Celtics can outbid other teams in that time frame. The other options available, (fifth year, designated player max, bigger raises etc) are to help 'weaker' clubs maintain talent in the face of big market or 'glam' market clubs.

The Celtics aren't a weak franchise and aren't going to be that over the life of the contract. So the point is the Celtics should not and likely will not bid against themselves. We should plan on them offering no more than a slight raise over the four year deal Thomas can get on the open market, that's my point in looking at what his actual 'max' offer will be.

If they should or even will offer that is open for debate. They may go to him and say "these are the options, take less than you can get on the open market and we can have a better team," and look for a discount. In answering that question, the key is whether offering even that much precludes them from making realistic better improvements elsewhere over the time frame of the deal.

[claycarver]

If they should or even will offer that is open for debate. They may go to him and say "these are the options, take less than you can get on the open market and we can have a better team," and look for a discount. In answering that question, the key is whether offering even that much precludes them from making realistic better improvements elsewhere over the time frame of the deal.

Depending on where are able to go in relation to the apron, I could see Isaiah willing to take a little less than full max if it means that we can keep Avery too. They've clearly grown close and see the value in playing with each other. But I think it would need to be something like that for him to take less than he can get with another team (4 year max).