"WCIHAoTDP?" - 2016 Draft Thread P.2

[Chris4Vikes]

I'm on the Bender hype train, already! Was down on him at 1st, but for a 18 year old, he has major potential. Could be the best player in the draft, if he develops as expected.

This mirrors my thinking completely. Bender is the type of player that could shine in today's NBA.

20 years ago, Okafer is one of the best players in the league and Bender is not a top 5 pick. Times have changed. Defensive flexibility, mobility, and long range shooting. Bender brings these things and Okafer does not.

[SmartWentCrazy]

What's Murray's deal and how does he compare to Buddy?

-More productive than Buddy was at a younger age. Less productive at scoring than BH was this year. Similar shooting stats % wise in conference.
-Fared very well playing for National team
-Was the best catch and shoot guy off of screens in the NCAA (shot 56% of ~75 attempts)
-Decent handle, a bit tighter than Buddy's IMO
-Quick release. Personally feel it's quicker than BH as BH brings the ball up from the waist too often while JM starts more from the chest.
-Worse athlete than BH
-Worse physical measurements than BH
-Tries much harder on defense than BH
-Better rebounder than BH

[Froob]

What's Murray's deal and how does he compare to Buddy?

-More productive than Buddy was at a younger age. Less productive at scoring than BH was this year. Similar shooting stats % wise in conference.
-Fared very well playing for National team
-Was the best catch and shoot guy off of screens in the NCAA (shot 56% of ~75 attempts)
-Decent handle, a bit tighter than Buddy's IMO
-Quick release. Personally feel it's quicker than BH as BH brings the ball up from the waist too often while JM starts more from the chest.
-Worse athlete than BH
-Worse physical measurements than BH
-Tries much harder on defense than BH
-Better rebounder than BH

Great post. Are either considered to be good defenders ? And which one do you prefer, I'm guessing Murray?

[SmartWentCrazy]

What's Murray's deal and how does he compare to Buddy?

-More productive than Buddy was at a younger age. Less productive at scoring than BH was this year. Similar shooting stats % wise in conference.
-Fared very well playing for National team
-Was the best catch and shoot guy off of screens in the NCAA (shot 56% of ~75 attempts)
-Decent handle, a bit tighter than Buddy's IMO
-Quick release. Personally feel it's quicker than BH as BH brings the ball up from the waist too often while JM starts more from the chest.
-Worse athlete than BH
-Worse physical measurements than BH
-Tries much harder on defense than BH
-Better rebounder than BH

Great post. Are either considered to be good defenders ? And which one do you prefer, I'm guessing Murray?

Neither are plus defenders, but BH is Harden level bad, IMO, as, at times, he just watches the play and doesn't react.

I'm a big fan of Murray. His role in the NBA is a bit more defined-- he'd be a guy like Rip Hamilton that you run around screens to get an open look from three. It's not sexy, but after watching the Atlanta series, we need shooting in the worst way possible. I also think he has great footwork and will occasionally catch you off guard with his athleticism.

With Hield, I don't trust his shooting %'s. He shot above 50% for the first couple of months in the year, then around 40% the rest of the year. His career indicates he's closer to that level, so I feel that he just caught a heater which caused his overall numbers to be heavily skewed.

I think Hield will be a solid NBA player. People often quote Jimmer or Morrison to try to degrade him, but those guys didn't have BH's work ethic and came along 5-10 years too early. In today's pace and space game, BH will be a solid player with a nice career--probably similar to JJ Riddick.

Overall, I prefer Murray. I wouldn't be upset if we took him third, but I would be upset if we took BH.

[Froob]

-More productive than Buddy was at a younger age. Less productive at scoring than BH was this year. Similar shooting stats % wise in conference.
-Fared very well playing for National team
-Was the best catch and shoot guy off of screens in the NCAA (shot 56% of ~75 attempts)
-Decent handle, a bit tighter than Buddy's IMO
-Quick release. Personally feel it's quicker than BH as BH brings the ball up from the waist too often while JM starts more from the chest.
-Worse athlete than BH
-Worse physical measurements than BH
-Tries much harder on defense than BH
-Better rebounder than BH

Great post. Are either considered to be good defenders ? And which one do you prefer, I'm guessing Murray?

Neither are plus defenders, but BH is Harden level bad, IMO, as, at times, he just watches the play and doesn't react.

I'm a big fan of Murray. His role in the NBA is a bit more defined-- he'd be a guy like Rip Hamilton that you run around screens to get an open look from three. It's not sexy, but after watching the Atlanta series, we need shooting in the worst way possible. I also think he has great footwork and will occasionally catch you off guard with his athleticism.

With Hield, I don't trust his shooting %'s. He shot above 50% for the first couple of months in the year, then around 40% the rest of the year. His career indicates he's closer to that level, so I feel that he just caught a heater which caused his overall numbers to be heavily skewed.

I think Hield will be a solid NBA player. People often quote Jimmer or Morrison to try to degrade him, but those guys didn't have BH's work ethic and came along 5-10 years too early. In today's pace and space game, BH will be a solid player with a nice career--probably similar to JJ Riddick.

Overall, I prefer Murray. I wouldn't be upset if we took him third, but I would be upset if we took BH.

Who are you hoping for #3, are you a Bender guy?

[SmartWentCrazy]

Great post. Are either considered to be good defenders ? And which one do you prefer, I'm guessing Murray?

Neither are plus defenders, but BH is Harden level bad, IMO, as, at times, he just watches the play and doesn't react.

I'm a big fan of Murray. His role in the NBA is a bit more defined-- he'd be a guy like Rip Hamilton that you run around screens to get an open look from three. It's not sexy, but after watching the Atlanta series, we need shooting in the worst way possible. I also think he has great footwork and will occasionally catch you off guard with his athleticism.

With Hield, I don't trust his shooting %'s. He shot above 50% for the first couple of months in the year, then around 40% the rest of the year. His career indicates he's closer to that level, so I feel that he just caught a heater which caused his overall numbers to be heavily skewed.

I think Hield will be a solid NBA player. People often quote Jimmer or Morrison to try to degrade him, but those guys didn't have BH's work ethic and came along 5-10 years too early. In today's pace and space game, BH will be a solid player with a nice career--probably similar to JJ Riddick.

Overall, I prefer Murray. I wouldn't be upset if we took him third, but I would be upset if we took BH.

Who are you hoping for #3, are you a Bender guy?

I like 3 guys thus far:

Murray
Bender
Jaylen Brown

For which I prefer, I'm pretty indifferent overall. My first choice would probably be a deal for Okafor. He's criminally underrated, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was pulling a Gary Sheffield last year and intentionally tanking his play to get out of Philadelphia. I think it's pretty clear he wants out (I'd venture his agent is the source for all of the rumors, and Colangelo's talk of trying to appease agents is directly aimed at him), and when viewed under than lens, his apathy toward passing and defense become a bit more understandable.

Second choice is probably Jaylen Brown at the moment-- love his shiftiness to the side on drives and his electric first step-- but I'm probably biased because of Russell Westbrook.

Third choice is probably Bender, fourth is probably Murray. 2-4 are really interchangeable, though, to be honest.

[Froob]

Neither are plus defenders, but BH is Harden level bad, IMO, as, at times, he just watches the play and doesn't react.

I'm a big fan of Murray. His role in the NBA is a bit more defined-- he'd be a guy like Rip Hamilton that you run around screens to get an open look from three. It's not sexy, but after watching the Atlanta series, we need shooting in the worst way possible. I also think he has great footwork and will occasionally catch you off guard with his athleticism.

With Hield, I don't trust his shooting %'s. He shot above 50% for the first couple of months in the year, then around 40% the rest of the year. His career indicates he's closer to that level, so I feel that he just caught a heater which caused his overall numbers to be heavily skewed.

I think Hield will be a solid NBA player. People often quote Jimmer or Morrison to try to degrade him, but those guys didn't have BH's work ethic and came along 5-10 years too early. In today's pace and space game, BH will be a solid player with a nice career--probably similar to JJ Riddick.

Overall, I prefer Murray. I wouldn't be upset if we took him third, but I would be upset if we took BH.

Who are you hoping for #3, are you a Bender guy?

I like 3 guys thus far:

Murray
Bender
Jaylen Brown

For which I prefer, I'm pretty indifferent overall. My first choice would probably be a deal for Okafor. He's criminally underrated, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was pulling a Gary Sheffield last year and intentionally tanking his play to get out of Philadelphia. I think it's pretty clear he wants out (I'd venture his agent is the source for all of the rumors, and Colangelo's talk of trying to appease agents is directly aimed at him), and when viewed under than lens, his apathy toward passing and defense become a bit more understandable.

Second choice is probably Jaylen Brown at the moment-- love his shiftiness to the side on drives and his electric first step-- but I'm probably biased because of Russell Westbrook.

Third choice is probably Bender, fourth is probably Murray. 2-4 are really interchangeable, though, to be honest.

Just watched some Murray, WOW what an athlete. A lot more dynamic than Buddy. He's more Westbrook while Buddy is more of a Wade in terms of style it seems. I'll have to check Jaylen Brown out too.

[JMac1]

Neither are plus defenders, but BH is Harden level bad, IMO, as, at times, he just watches the play and doesn't react.

I'm a big fan of Murray. His role in the NBA is a bit more defined-- he'd be a guy like Rip Hamilton that you run around screens to get an open look from three. It's not sexy, but after watching the Atlanta series, we need shooting in the worst way possible. I also think he has great footwork and will occasionally catch you off guard with his athleticism.

With Hield, I don't trust his shooting %'s. He shot above 50% for the first couple of months in the year, then around 40% the rest of the year. His career indicates he's closer to that level, so I feel that he just caught a heater which caused his overall numbers to be heavily skewed.

I think Hield will be a solid NBA player. People often quote Jimmer or Morrison to try to degrade him, but those guys didn't have BH's work ethic and came along 5-10 years too early. In today's pace and space game, BH will be a solid player with a nice career--probably similar to JJ Riddick.

Overall, I prefer Murray. I wouldn't be upset if we took him third, but I would be upset if we took BH.

Who are you hoping for #3, are you a Bender guy?

I like 3 guys thus far:

Murray
Bender
Jaylen Brown

For which I prefer, I'm pretty indifferent overall. My first choice would probably be a deal for Okafor. He's criminally underrated, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was pulling a Gary Sheffield last year and intentionally tanking his play to get out of Philadelphia. I think it's pretty clear he wants out (I'd venture his agent is the source for all of the rumors, and Colangelo's talk of trying to appease agents is directly aimed at him), and when viewed under than lens, his apathy toward passing and defense become a bit more understandable.

Second choice is probably Jaylen Brown at the moment-- love his shiftiness to the side on drives and his electric first step-- but I'm probably biased because of Russell Westbrook.

Third choice is probably Bender, fourth is probably Murray. 2-4 are really interchangeable, though, to be honest.

Imagine if his basketball skills catches up with his athleticism? Some guys on our board cant see what you and I see. Some people are saying his lack of success at Cal is due to the style of play and college spacing...

[SmartWentCrazy]

Who are you hoping for #3, are you a Bender guy?

I like 3 guys thus far:

Murray
Bender
Jaylen Brown

For which I prefer, I'm pretty indifferent overall. My first choice would probably be a deal for Okafor. He's criminally underrated, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was pulling a Gary Sheffield last year and intentionally tanking his play to get out of Philadelphia. I think it's pretty clear he wants out (I'd venture his agent is the source for all of the rumors, and Colangelo's talk of trying to appease agents is directly aimed at him), and when viewed under than lens, his apathy toward passing and defense become a bit more understandable.

Second choice is probably Jaylen Brown at the moment-- love his shiftiness to the side on drives and his electric first step-- but I'm probably biased because of Russell Westbrook.

Third choice is probably Bender, fourth is probably Murray. 2-4 are really interchangeable, though, to be honest.

Just watched some Murray, WOW what an athlete. A lot more dynamic than Buddy. He's more Westbrook while Buddy is more of a Wade in terms of style it seems. I'll have to check Jaylen Brown out too.

Murray is a very interesting athlete. He's not explosive, but he has excellent footwork and maintains great body control. His motor is always on high, and he can run for days. He looks to drive a lot and finds decent creases to get to the hoop. Every now and then, he soars for a dunk, much like Pierce did back in the day.

If you want to see a Wade or Westbrook caliber athlete, Brown is your guy. He is a specimen.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Who are you hoping for #3, are you a Bender guy?

I like 3 guys thus far:

Murray
Bender
Jaylen Brown

For which I prefer, I'm pretty indifferent overall. My first choice would probably be a deal for Okafor. He's criminally underrated, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was pulling a Gary Sheffield last year and intentionally tanking his play to get out of Philadelphia. I think it's pretty clear he wants out (I'd venture his agent is the source for all of the rumors, and Colangelo's talk of trying to appease agents is directly aimed at him), and when viewed under than lens, his apathy toward passing and defense become a bit more understandable.

Second choice is probably Jaylen Brown at the moment-- love his shiftiness to the side on drives and his electric first step-- but I'm probably biased because of Russell Westbrook.

Third choice is probably Bender, fourth is probably Murray. 2-4 are really interchangeable, though, to be honest.

Imagine if his basketball skills catches up with his athleticism? Some guys on our board cant see what you and I see. Some people are saying his lack of success at Cal is due to the style of play and college spacing...

That's the thing that makes him so alluring. He's got a great head on his shoulders, and had the second best FTA/40 of current first round draft prospects. With a cleared paint, he's going to live at the FT line.

His shot isn't good right now, but it isn't broken either. He falls back a little too much, but his form is mostly right. I'm pretty convinced he can be a guy like Wade or Westbrook who just reaches a whole different level in the NBA. He really feels like this years wing version of Drummond-- a former top prospect with elite attributes that underperformed in the NCAA before growing immensely in the NBA.

[jfs1000d]

From that NylonCalculus piece from the other day, this stood out(and not just for the grammar error):

Did he shed light on how far back his model goes? I'd be shocked if Drummond didn't go from "Avoid" to star, personally.

Drummond's jump from average rebounder at UConn to incredibly dominant NBA rebounder has got to be pretty outlierish though. I mean he doubled his DRB% from college to the pros.

Other than rebounding/motor though, his strengths and weaknesses have translated - major defensive playmaker and incredible athletic finisher, nightmarish FT shooter with poor touch outside of 2 feet, low BBIQ. In college he was basically a rawer WCS with a better frame.

Slart, Drummond's rise is not surprising at all. I watched every game of his in college. Drummond didn't know how to play basketball yet. He displayed all the tools that you would need, including the quick jumping ability. His rebounding had more to do with positioning. He was out of position a lot in the college game because of the nature of the sport. He was 10 and 7 in limited minutes in college with a billion "oh my god" he has no idea how good he can be.

[No-Man]

Tiers are interesting, they are difficult with a Draft like this year's, but I gave it a try (like before I left out guys that I believe will withdraw like Isaia Cordinier, Georgios Papagiannis, Aleksandar Vezenkov or Nik Slavica, whom would probably be around Tier 3 or 4, if they were in, and Santiago Yusta who probably would be in Tier 4-5, plus others).

Tier 1 NBA All Stars, potentially franchise changers

Ben Simmons/Brandon Ingram
Dragan Bender

Tier 2 possibly All Stars, starters

Kris Dunn
Wade Baldwin IV
Timothé Luwawu
Marquese Chriss
Jaylen Brown
Furkan Korkmaz
Ivica Zubac

Tier 3 NBA solid contributors, could be as starters or as bench players

Denzel Valentine
Patrick McCaw
Henry Ellenson
Juancho Hernangómez
DeAndre Bembry
Domantas Sabonis
Robert Carter Jr.
Stephen Zimmerman
Deyonta Davis
Jakob Poeltl
Chinanu Onuaku
Malik Beasley
Gary Payton II
AJ Hammons
Taurean Prince
Jamal Murray
Ante Zizic
Brice Johnson
Pascal Siakam
Dorian Finney-Smith

Tier 4 possibly top-notch bench players to rotation guys

Ron Baker
Tyler Ulis
Malcolm Brogdon
Buddy Hield
Rade Zagorac
Guerschon Yabusele
Joel Bolomboy
Caris LeVert
Petr Cornelie
Demetrius Jackson
Fred VanVleet
Kay Felder
Troy Williams
Damian Jones
Ben Bentil
Zhou Qi
Derrick Jones Jr.
Jake Layman
Malachi Richardson
Dejounte Murray
Skal Labissiere
Thon Maker
Cheick Diallo
Paul Zipser
Michael Gbinije
Josh Adams
Marko Guduric
James Webb III
Marko Arapovic
Prince Ibeh
Mathias Lessort
Julian Jacobs
Daniel Hamilton
Diamond Stone
Anthony Barber
Isaiah Whitehead
Sheldon McClellan
Rasheed Sulaimon
Jarrod Uthoff
Isaiah Cousins

Tier 5 mix of players with marginal NBA skills/low chance of hitting their ceiling

Danuel House
Jalen Jones
Brannen Greene
Wayne Selden
John Brown
Thomas Walkup
Terry Tarpey
Georges Niang
Dyshawn Pierre
Moussa Diagné
Devin Williams
Yogi Ferrell
Isaiah Taylor
Tim Quarterman
Danilo Fuzaro
David Walker
Jordan Fouse
Shaquille Harrison
Jameel Warney
Shawn Long
Nikola Ivanovic
Marcus Paige
Nic Moore
Markus Kennedy
Rosco Allen
Alex Caruso
Tyrone Wallace
Alex Poythress
Jonathan Holton
Winston Shepard
Armani Moore
Isaiah Miles
Shaq Goodwin
Daniel Ochefu
Egidijus Mockevicius
Elgin Cook
Andrey Desyatnikov
Kyle Collinsworth
Roosevelt Jones
Maodo Lo
Anthony Gill
Kaleb Tarczewski
Bryn Forbes
Marvelle Harris
Stefan Moody
Andrew Andrews
Damion Lee
A.J. English
Perry Ellis
Kyle Wiltjer
Marshall Plumlee
Tony Parker
Zach Auguste
Mike Tobey
Ryan Anderson

[Grahf]

The simple fact that Jaylen Brown is so similar to Justise Winslow makes me think that he is the dark horse to watch.

[Leprechaun18]

Tiers are interesting, they are difficult with a Draft like this year's, but I gave it a try (like before I left out guys that I believe will withdraw like Isaia Cordinier, Georgios Papagiannis, Aleksandar Vezenkov or Nik Slavica, whom would probably be around Tier 3 or 4, if they were in, and Santiago Yusta who probably would be in Tier 4-5, plus others).

Tier 1 NBA All Stars, potentially franchise changers

Ben Simmons/Brandon Ingram
Dragan Bender

Tier 2 possibly All Stars, starters

Kris Dunn
Wade Baldwin IV
Timothé Luwawu
Marquese Chriss
Jaylen Brown
Furkan Korkmaz
Ivica Zubac

Tier 3 NBA solid contributors, could be as starters or as bench players

Denzel Valentine
Patrick McCaw
Henry Ellenson
Juancho Hernangómez
DeAndre Bembry
Domantas Sabonis
Robert Carter Jr.
Stephen Zimmerman
Deyonta Davis
Jakob Poeltl
Chinanu Onuaku
Malik Beasley
Gary Payton II
AJ Hammons
Taurean Prince
Jamal Murray
Ante Zizic
Brice Johnson
Pascal Siakam
Dorian Finney-Smith

Tier 4 possibly top-notch bench players to rotation guys

Ron Baker
Tyler Ulis
Malcolm Brogdon
Buddy Hield
Rade Zagorac
Guerschon Yabusele
Joel Bolomboy
Caris LeVert
Petr Cornelie
Demetrius Jackson
Fred VanVleet
Kay Felder
Troy Williams
Damian Jones
Ben Bentil
Zhou Qi
Derrick Jones Jr.
Jake Layman
Malachi Richardson
Dejounte Murray
Skal Labissiere
Thon Maker
Cheick Diallo
Paul Zipser
Michael Gbinije
Josh Adams
Marko Guduric
James Webb III
Marko Arapovic
Prince Ibeh
Mathias Lessort
Julian Jacobs
Daniel Hamilton
Diamond Stone
Anthony Barber
Isaiah Whitehead
Sheldon McClellan
Rasheed Sulaimon
Jarrod Uthoff
Isaiah Cousins

Tier 5 mix of players with marginal NBA skills/low chance of hitting their ceiling

Danuel House
Jalen Jones
Brannen Greene
Wayne Selden
John Brown
Thomas Walkup
Terry Tarpey
Georges Niang
Dyshawn Pierre
Moussa Diagné
Devin Williams
Yogi Ferrell
Isaiah Taylor
Tim Quarterman
Danilo Fuzaro
David Walker
Jordan Fouse
Shaquille Harrison
Jameel Warney
Shawn Long
Nikola Ivanovic
Marcus Paige
Nic Moore
Markus Kennedy
Rosco Allen
Alex Caruso
Tyrone Wallace
Alex Poythress
Jonathan Holton
Winston Shepard
Armani Moore
Isaiah Miles
Shaq Goodwin
Daniel Ochefu
Egidijus Mockevicius
Elgin Cook
Andrey Desyatnikov
Kyle Collinsworth
Roosevelt Jones
Maodo Lo
Anthony Gill
Kaleb Tarczewski
Bryn Forbes
Marvelle Harris
Stefan Moody
Andrew Andrews
Damion Lee
A.J. English
Perry Ellis
Kyle Wiltjer
Marshall Plumlee
Tony Parker
Zach Auguste
Mike Tobey
Ryan Anderson

Your rankings mean nothing to me. I do not agree with them. Perhaps you could give reasons for your rankings?

[No-Man]

Your rankings mean nothing to me. I do not agree with them. Perhaps you could give reasons for your rankings?

I mean, of course you dont, that's why they are mine.
If you could give me some questions related to specific players I could explain more, in terms of general stuff;

I am high on defense, value it as much as offense, more when it comes to some positions.
I value youth and numbers, but also tools and projectable skills.
I value BPA but also later in the draft, after top10 or so, what position has more value, this draft is loaded with bigs, so the ones that are a bit iffy, low chance of reaching their ceiling or have major flaws, fall hard.

[Marley2Hendrix]

Your rankings mean nothing to me. I do not agree with them. Perhaps you could give reasons for your rankings?

I mean, of course you dont, that's why they are mine.
If you could give me some questions related to specific players I could explain more, in terms of general stuff;

I am high on defense, value it as much as offense, more when it comes to some positions.
I value youth and numbers, but also tools and projectable skills.
I value BPA but also later in the draft, after top10 or so, what position has more value, this draft is loaded with bigs, so the ones that are a bit iffy, low chance of reaching their ceiling or have major flaws, fall hard.

I absolutely appreciate any set of rankings that skew from the norm, as, at a minimum, they offer a refreshing perspective. I really miss PogueMahone as he would unearth some gems from time to time with his interesting statistical look at things. Keep it up.

[KGboss]

Noticeably Thon Maker was left out of those rankings

[Leprechaun18]

Your rankings mean nothing to me. I do not agree with them. Perhaps you could give reasons for your rankings?

I mean, of course you dont, that's why they are mine.
If you could give me some questions related to specific players I could explain more, in terms of general stuff;

I am high on defense, value it as much as offense, more when it comes to some positions.
I value youth and numbers, but also tools and projectable skills.
I value BPA but also later in the draft, after top10 or so, what position has more value, this draft is loaded with bigs, so the ones that are a bit iffy, low chance of reaching their ceiling or have major flaws, fall hard.

Well explain why you have Bender in the top tier. Tell us why he will not bust. Will he become the next Toni Kukoc?

I personally don't care what your rankings are. You want us to know your rankings. So you are seeking credibility. Sorry for analyzing you, but perhaps your need to get noticed has influenced your rankings.

The draft sites do consult with team scouts and use them to form their mock drafts. Some of them also break down a prospects ability in different areas to predict future success. Why should we care about your draft rankings?

[CharlesBradleyLikesToDunk]

If you don't care about his rankings then why not just ignore them? Seems kind of ridiculous to give him a hard time about them, especially since, you know, you don't care about them.

[Banks2Pierce]

The simple fact that Jaylen Brown is so similar to Justise Winslow makes me think that he is the dark horse to watch.

Similar size and athleticism, but pretty much ends there. Winslow's statistical profile was strong and Brown's is not.