Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go

[sully00]

I think your deciding that Turner is limited to being the guy he is playing next to Sabonis. I will say that Turner is proven that his ability to play between the 4 and 5 isn't what you would hope it would be. That said he can knock down threes and is one of the best shot blockers in the NBA. If you have broken down his PnR play to that point then show the numbers I don't have them just telling me it is an opinion. Rebounding isn't great at all but his defensive rebounding isn't bad similar to Horford.

This so side tracked the original point that I don't think Ainge actually gave a ****. He wasn't going to S&T Hayward to IND and is probably only half interested in doing a deal with CHA.

Half interested? If Danny doesn't wanna do the S&T, why haven't the Hornets just signed Hayward outright yet? Stretch out Batum and be done with it lol.

Because the cap hit is brutal. You sign Hayward because you think he is the kind of guy other guys are going to want to play with. You don't drop a 9mil stinker in the middle of your salary cap for the next two years.

I am getting the vibe that CHA's front office doesn't know how to navigate this.

[GWVan]

Ray, Al and now Gordon . Danny lost them all by misjudging the market and playing hardball . He also failed to understand why those guys would leave . The Celts used to be the franchise that was loyal to its players . Now that franchise is Miami . No wonder Tyler Herro said he was happy the Heat ( and not Boston) took him . Bartlestein is a snake - Danny had to know he was playing with fire. There’s a pattern with Ainge and it has cost us a lot over the past two years . I don’t see how you sugarcoat this . Hopefully we get the trade exception so that we can salvage something . Danny has done great when he drafts 1-6 but after that he’s a disaster. I hope this year is better than the prior years but Prichard sure seemed like a reach

Ainge 1st round picks outside the top 6, if I didn't miss any:

Home runs:
Rondo
Jefferson

Good/very good picks relative to draft spot:
Perkins
Allen
Bradley
Olynyk
Rozier

Mediocre picks:
West
Green
Sullinger

Busts
Banks
Giddens
Johnson
Melo
Hunter
Yabu
Zizic

Not counting anyone from 2018+ because they're too early to determine, but it's fair to at least say none of them look like busts so far. When you factor in that Yabu and ZIzic were hamstrung picks because they needed to draft stashes and that all these guys were mid to late 1sts, not even late lotto for the most part, that's hardly a disaster.

This can be quantified, in the last ten years Boston is the third most successful team in the draft and Danny is the 2nd most successful active GM. https://towardsdatascience.com/measuring-success-in-the-nba-draft-a7f67cfb7718

Notably, old friend Chris Wallace is the worst and available, maybe we could get him back.

[Ill News]

I've been an Ainge apologist for years, but even I have to admit that he screwed up this offseason. He got greedy trying to milk the Pacers for another starter; the IndyStar reports the Pacers were offering Turner, a rotation player, and a 1st round pick, yet Ainge still refused this generous offer. He thought he had all the leverage since Hayward said he wanted to sign with Indiana, only to have the Hornets swoop in and screw everything up.

We could've had a player (Turner) who would've helped us fill a need (even though I'm not really impressed with his play). Instead, we lost Hayward for nothing. I don't see how that trade exception will help, but whatever.

On the bright side, at least we have Tatum and Brown locked up for the next four years. But Ainge has to display more urgency in building a contender around these two guys. I'm quite satisfied with the Thompson and Teague signings, more of those please.

[BostonCouchGM]

Ray, Al and now Gordon . Danny lost them all by misjudging the market and playing hardball . He also failed to understand why those guys would leave . The Celts used to be the franchise that was loyal to its players . Now that franchise is Miami . No wonder Tyler Herro said he was happy the Heat ( and not Boston) took him . Bartlestein is a snake - Danny had to know he was playing with fire. There’s a pattern with Ainge and it has cost us a lot over the past two years . I don’t see how you sugarcoat this . Hopefully we get the trade exception so that we can salvage something . Danny has done great when he drafts 1-6 but after that he’s a disaster. I hope this year is better than the prior years but Prichard sure seemed like a reach

Ainge 1st round picks outside the top 6, if I didn't miss any:

Home runs:
Rondo
Jefferson

Good/very good picks relative to draft spot:
Perkins
Allen
Bradley
Olynyk
Rozier

Mediocre picks:
West
Green
Sullinger

Busts
Banks
Giddens
Johnson
Melo
Hunter
Yabu
Zizic

Not counting anyone from 2018+ because they're too early to determine, but it's fair to at least say none of them look like busts so far. When you factor in that Yabu and ZIzic were hamstrung picks because they needed to draft stashes and that all these guys were mid to late 1sts, not even late lotto for the most part, that's hardly a disaster.

you forgot James Young in the 'Busts" category. Also, just because a player is decent and was decent for where he was taken, like Olynyk, does not mean that was a good pick, because both Giannis and Gobert were still on the board. So he doesn't belong in the 'Good' category. Nor does Allen lmao.

All things considered, given where players were picked and who was picked after that player:

Great:
Jefferson
Rondo

Good:
AB
Rozier

Mediocre:
Perkins
Allen
Green
Sullinger
West

Atrocious Fireable Offense:
Olynyk (year 1 of rebuild with Giannis and Gobert on the board)
Melo
Young
Giddens
Johnson
Yabusele
Zizic
Hunter

he also seemingly gets a pass for trading draft picks that have cost us players in both the first and 2nd rounds and his 2nd round failures are just hand-waved away. Not sure why

in case you're keeping score, this shows Danny is a terrible drafter. He's got other gifts, but drafting isn't one of them.

[MrGreenRunsDeep]

Ray, Al and now Gordon . Danny lost them all by misjudging the market and playing hardball . He also failed to understand why those guys would leave . The Celts used to be the franchise that was loyal to its players . Now that franchise is Miami . No wonder Tyler Herro said he was happy the Heat ( and not Boston) took him . Bartlestein is a snake - Danny had to know he was playing with fire. There’s a pattern with Ainge and it has cost us a lot over the past two years . I don’t see how you sugarcoat this . Hopefully we get the trade exception so that we can salvage something . Danny has done great when he drafts 1-6 but after that he’s a disaster. I hope this year is better than the prior years but Prichard sure seemed like a reach

Ainge 1st round picks outside the top 6, if I didn't miss any:

Home runs:
Rondo
Jefferson

Good/very good picks relative to draft spot:
Perkins
Allen
Bradley
Olynyk
Rozier

Mediocre picks:
West
Green
Sullinger

Busts
Banks
Giddens
Johnson
Melo
Hunter
Yabu
Zizic

Not counting anyone from 2018+ because they're too early to determine, but it's fair to at least say none of them look like busts so far. When you factor in that Yabu and ZIzic were hamstrung picks because they needed to draft stashes and that all these guys were mid to late 1sts, not even late lotto for the most part, that's hardly a disaster.

you forgot James Young in the 'Busts" category. Also, just because a player is decent and was decent for where he was taken, like Olynyk, does not mean that was a good pick, because both Giannis and Gobert were still on the board. So he doesn't belong in the 'Good' category. Nor does Allen lmao.

All things considered, given where players were picked and who was picked after that player:

Great:
Jefferson
Rondo

Good:
AB
Rozier

Mediocre:
Perkins
Allen
Green
Sullinger
West

Atrocious Fireable Offense:
Olynyk (year 1 of rebuild with Giannis and Gobert on the board)
Melo
Young
Giddens
Johnson
Yabusele
Zizic
Hunter

he also seemingly gets a pass for trading draft picks that have cost us players in both the first and 2nd rounds and his 2nd round failures are just hand-waved away. Not sure why

in case you're keeping score, this shows Danny is a terrible drafter. He's got other gifts, but drafting isn't one of them.

Tony Allen defence was good on Kobe ... Tony Allen was good defensive player but his shooting was bad...

[return2glory]

Before people tear into the OP for over-reacting. Let’s look at some facts (well, rumored sources reports):

Gordon was favoring destination over money.
Gordon wanted Indiana
Indiana wanted Gordon.
Indiana offered Danny a good package.

He waited. He wanted to get more. He thought he had time on his side.

Gordon and his wife and family didn’t want to wait anymore. That’s on Ainge.

He should be held accountable. I will give him the rest of the offseason though to see what he does. He might just have never liked Turner.

You left out the part Charlotte came in an offered Hayward more money, enough where he couldn’t pass it up. His preferred destination (Indiana) can wait 3 or 4 years. These guys make so much money that Indiana can be his summer/off season home. He can buy or rent a house in Charlotte for the time being.

[ParticleMan]

I've been an Ainge apologist for years, but even I have to admit that he screwed up this offseason. He got greedy trying to milk the Pacers for another starter; the IndyStar reports the Pacers were offering Turner, a rotation player, and a 1st round pick, yet Ainge still refused this generous offer. He thought he had all the leverage since Hayward said he wanted to sign with Indiana, only to have the Hornets swoop in and screw everything up.

We could've had a player (Turner) who would've helped us fill a need (even though I'm not really impressed with his play). Instead, we lost Hayward for nothing. I don't see how that trade exception will help, but whatever.

On the bright side, at least we have Tatum and Brown locked up for the next four years. But Ainge has to display more urgency in building a contender around these two guys. I'm quite satisfied with the Thompson and Teague signings, more of those please.

if we got turner, there would be no thompson.

i don't buy for a second that the deal fell apart because danny got greedy. i think gordon knew all along about the possibility of a charlotte offer, and that it would be the biggest offer. it was gordon who held it up, to see if charlotte would pan out, and it did. once that happened he signed very quickly.

[return2glory]

Ray, Al and now Gordon . Danny lost them all by misjudging the market and playing hardball . He also failed to understand why those guys would leave . The Celts used to be the franchise that was loyal to its players . Now that franchise is Miami . No wonder Tyler Herro said he was happy the Heat ( and not Boston) took him . Bartlestein is a snake - Danny had to know he was playing with fire. There’s a pattern with Ainge and it has cost us a lot over the past two years . I don’t see how you sugarcoat this . Hopefully we get the trade exception so that we can salvage something . Danny has done great when he drafts 1-6 but after that he’s a disaster. I hope this year is better than the prior years but Prichard sure seemed like a reach

It’s not about being loyal to players. Players aren’t loyal to teams for the most part. There is too much money to go around.

I was glad Al was overpaid and left. He was a declining player, averaging 12 and 6. We were better without him.

Ray was disliked by a lot of players here and he took off at the first chance he got.

Hayward was overpaid like Horford and ran. Case of players doing what’s best for him aka not being loyal to their teams. But I can’t blame them. Too much money going around these days compared to 10 or 20 years ago.

Also Pritchard wasn’t a reach. He was an unknown to most, especially for those that didn’t follow the PAC-12, where he was a 2 time player of the conference.

With the signing of Teague, I expect this year to be a learning year for Pritchard, he will get more of a chance to display his skills the following year. We don’t need him to step in this year with Kemba, Teague and Smart at PG.

[playa-hater]

for the most part guys on here debating that Ainge "messed up" or NOT referring to GH. and While I did not like what happened with GH, I am far more annoyed with The draft. Nesmith was a really good pick and I will even be optimistic on PP. Though an argument can be made that PP's need plus talent wasn't as high as other players at the 26 spot. But not drafting a potential talented player at 30 and getting a stash, who isn't either a need or talent over still quality players with 1st RD upside at 47 was horrid IMHO. and before someone says "roster spots" should be reminded, we just extended SEMI!!!.

Give me someone who might be good > someone who definitely isn't (Semi)

[Ernest]

Weird that Ainge is "greedy" but Hayward isn't. I mean, it all is what it is and the grownups are ok with it. But just weird that the anger seemingly 100% went on Ainge. No one is mad at CHA or Gordon. I guess I just expected more variety of foolishness.

[stretch]

I've been an Ainge apologist for years, but even I have to admit that he screwed up this offseason. He got greedy trying to milk the Pacers for another starter; the IndyStar reports the Pacers were offering Turner, a rotation player, and a 1st round pick, yet Ainge still refused this generous offer. He thought he had all the leverage since Hayward said he wanted to sign with Indiana, only to have the Hornets swoop in and screw everything up.

We could've had a player (Turner) who would've helped us fill a need (even though I'm not really impressed with his play). Instead, we lost Hayward for nothing. I don't see how that trade exception will help, but whatever.

On the bright side, at least we have Tatum and Brown locked up for the next four years. But Ainge has to display more urgency in building a contender around these two guys. I'm quite satisfied with the Thompson and Teague signings, more of those please.

Fair argument but none of us really know what happened. We are all Monday morning GMs

I remember a few journalists tweeting that Hayward was given a choice and preferred the Charlotte offer to the Indiana one. Heck, it was 20 million more dollars at least.

Also let’s not forget that Indiana behaved like this with PG13, asking Boston for the moon three years ago.

For all we know the Boston brass made the determination that Hayward to Charlotte and signing TT was better than what Indy was offering. They’re probably willing to pay TT but not Turner. Wyc, Steve, Mike and Danny don’t want to create a juggernaut in Indiana. So if Indiana’s not going to handover Oladipo or Warren, tough luck

I definitely prefer TT to Turner. I don’t think Celtic nation realizes how good TT is and can be, next to JT, JB, and even Theis. We might end up being the best defensive team in the NBA next season.

[jirrit]

Before people tear into the OP for over-reacting. Let’s look at some facts (well, rumored sources reports):

Gordon was favoring destination over money.
Gordon wanted Indiana
Indiana wanted Gordon.
Indiana offered Danny a good package.

He waited. He wanted to get more. He thought he had time on his side.

Gordon and his wife and family didn’t want to wait anymore. That’s on Ainge.

He should be held accountable. I will give him the rest of the offseason though to see what he does. He might just have never liked Turner.

You left out the part Charlotte came in an offered Hayward more money, enough where he couldn’t pass it up. His preferred destination (Indiana) can wait 3 or 4 years. These guys make so much money that Indiana can be his summer/off season home. He can buy or rent a house in Charlotte for the time being.

He must have made like 200 mil as a player already? A contract of 100 was to be signed here or in Indy. Dont get why you’d wanna get ‘buried’ in Charlotte for 30 million more. I mean okay it’s 30 million but I sure as hell would be happy to survive with only 300 while contending whereas being in Charlotte for 4 years while having 330? I dont really see the big difference. He now can afford 330 1 million houses instead of 300 1 million houses I guess.

[Ernest]

Before people tear into the OP for over-reacting. Let’s look at some facts (well, rumored sources reports):

Gordon was favoring destination over money.
Gordon wanted Indiana
Indiana wanted Gordon.
Indiana offered Danny a good package.

He waited. He wanted to get more. He thought he had time on his side.

Gordon and his wife and family didn’t want to wait anymore. That’s on Ainge.

He should be held accountable. I will give him the rest of the offseason though to see what he does. He might just have never liked Turner.

You left out the part Charlotte came in an offered Hayward more money, enough where he couldn’t pass it up. His preferred destination (Indiana) can wait 3 or 4 years. These guys make so much money that Indiana can be his summer/off season home. He can buy or rent a house in Charlotte for the time being.

He must have made like 200 mil as a player already? A contract of 100 was to be signed here or in Indy. Dont get why you’d wanna get ‘buried’ in Charlotte for 30 million more. I mean okay it’s 30 million but I sure as hell would be happy to survive with only 300 while contending whereas being in Charlotte for 4 years while having 330? I dont really see the big difference. He now can afford 330 1 million houses instead of 300 1 million houses I guess.

Because whatever the number is, tax will eat up a huge part of it. Then you have family and friends and people you know who will one way or another get something. Combine that with it being a profession where almost no one makes it to 40. Can't blame anyone for wanting to cash in.

[Jammer]

2013
Year 1 of the rebuild after losing the Big Three. Takes Olynyk over Giannis or Gobert
2014
takes James Young over Bogdan, Jokic, Grant, Capela and Dinwiddie
2016
fake roster crunch so he drafts and stashes Yabusele and Zizic instead of drafting Dejounte, LeVert, Siakam or Brogdon
2017
trades for disgruntled head case Kyrie rental that costs us the #8 pick in the 2018 draft (SGA or MPJ)
2019
signs Kemba lmao
takes Langford over Sekou, Samanic
trades out of #20 instead of taking Clarke
takes Grant Williams over Bazley
takes Carsen Edwards over Bol, Roby, Paschall
2020
trades #30 pick instead of taking Robert Woodard II or Tyler Bey who would be Hayward replacement

Ainge has BEEN bad. Imagine if he didn't get a clueless Russian owner to hand him that Nets haul? There'd have been no Jaylen and no Tatum. He's not good folks. Of course he needs to go. He's always been a disastrous drafter but now even his trades have fallen off. We're a treadmill team that might very well lose Tatum because of his ineptitude. But as long as he has fans defending him and an owner happy to fill sits and not delve into the luxury tax he's seemingly here for life.

Being a draft genius in hindsight is easy. I invite you for the second time (but I know you'll chicken out again) to participate here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2019003

I have stuck up numerous times for Management in this thread so I am not going to repeat prior statements of support on pages 1 and 6.

But your invitation is misplaced because the GM , Assistant GM and scouting department are paid to be 24 hour a day scouts of talent. You should not be comparing fans to those whose 24 HOUR A DAY job is to assess talent. I understand why you made the invitation but in reality, it's not relevant for assessment of the Management and scouting department's performance.

[ParticleMan]

the only proper way to evaluate ainge and the C's FO is with respect to other teams (all of whom also have scouting depts). if there's a GM who has, with every single draft pick, always picked the player that turned out to be the best available, then i will accept these sort of "oh but danny missed on XXX" criticisms. hint: there's no such GM.

otherwise, you have to evaluate things statistically, based on metrics that are APPLIED TO ALL TEAMS. not just one standard for danny ainge, and another standard for every other GM.

when you do that sort of analysis, ainge typically comes out as one of the top or at least better drafters in the league. here's a recent example, which puts ainge as the #2 GM in drafting ability over the last 10 years, just edged out by Denver's Tim Connelly:
https://towardsdatascience.com/measuring-success-in-the-nba-draft-a7f67cfb7718

of course we can argue about the assumptions and metrics that go into these measures. the above one is based on win shares of the pick vs players drafted after the person picked. this seems fairly reasonable though i could think of others. but to simply dismiss all such analyses and say "oh i know danny sucks at drafting because he picked olynyk over giannis" is pure lazy thinking that will not ever convince me of anything.

[Ernest]

Unless the Tiger King gets a pardon, maybe we should consider bringing back Rick Pitino after we get Ainge fired and locked up for treason.

I found a great blast from the past video on our 97-98 season.

Watch on YouTube

[Taget]

Ray, Al and now Gordon . Danny lost them all by misjudging the market and playing hardball . He also failed to understand why those guys would leave . The Celts used to be the franchise that was loyal to its players . Now that franchise is Miami . No wonder Tyler Herro said he was happy the Heat ( and not Boston) took him . Bartlestein is a snake - Danny had to know he was playing with fire. There’s a pattern with Ainge and it has cost us a lot over the past two years . I don’t see how you sugarcoat this . Hopefully we get the trade exception so that we can salvage something . Danny has done great when he drafts 1-6 but after that he’s a disaster. I hope this year is better than the prior years but Prichard sure seemed like a reach

Ainge 1st round picks outside the top 6, if I didn't miss any:

Home runs:
Rondo
Jefferson

Good/very good picks relative to draft spot:
Perkins
Allen
Bradley
Olynyk
Rozier

Mediocre picks:
West
Green
Sullinger

Busts
Banks
Giddens
Johnson
Melo
Hunter
Yabu
Zizic

Not counting anyone from 2018+ because they're too early to determine, but it's fair to at least say none of them look like busts so far. When you factor in that Yabu and ZIzic were hamstrung picks because they needed to draft stashes and that all these guys were mid to late 1sts, not even late lotto for the most part, that's hardly a disaster.

When we traded West and his head was still stuck on straight he was a great pickup. Good enough that he was the lynch pin that got us Ray Allen. Unfortunately he went after the rails after we got rid of him. Still miss the guy.

Zizic was a good pick. And is the type that a good GM makes. The hyped player that has increased value after you pick them but you get rid of before their value falls down to earth. Think Sacramento picking "White Chocolate" and turning him into Mike Bibby.

And example where we didn't do this and should have is Gerald Green. After a few spectacular dunks from Gerald Green in Summer League most teams were regretting not taking him. And even after a season or two we could have converted him into a good asset. But we waited too long and his value fizzled as he went from young player with "potential" to journeyman finding his way.

He was still the best pick at that position. We just needed the sense and foresight to flip him right at the start of his rookie season.

[theman]

People seem to be forgetting the success Danny has had in the second round.
Leon Powe
Abel Nader
Ryan Gomes
E'Twaun Moore

[theman]

Ainge 1st round picks outside the top 6, if I didn't miss any:

Home runs:
Rondo
Jefferson

Good/very good picks relative to draft spot:
Perkins
Allen
Bradley
Olynyk
Rozier

Mediocre picks:
West
Green
Sullinger

Busts
Banks
Giddens
Johnson
Melo
Hunter
Yabu
Zizic

Not counting anyone from 2018+ because they're too early to determine, but it's fair to at least say none of them look like busts so far. When you factor in that Yabu and ZIzic were hamstrung picks because they needed to draft stashes and that all these guys were mid to late 1sts, not even late lotto for the most part, that's hardly a disaster.

you forgot James Young in the 'Busts" category. Also, just because a player is decent and was decent for where he was taken, like Olynyk, does not mean that was a good pick, because both Giannis and Gobert were still on the board. So he doesn't belong in the 'Good' category. Nor does Allen lmao.

All things considered, given where players were picked and who was picked after that player:

Great:
Jefferson
Rondo

Good:
AB
Rozier

Mediocre:
Perkins
Allen
Green
Sullinger
West

Atrocious Fireable Offense:
Olynyk (year 1 of rebuild with Giannis and Gobert on the board)
Melo
Young
Giddens
Johnson
Yabusele
Zizic
Hunter

he also seemingly gets a pass for trading draft picks that have cost us players in both the first and 2nd rounds and his 2nd round failures are just hand-waved away. Not sure why

in case you're keeping score, this shows Danny is a terrible drafter. He's got other gifts, but drafting isn't one of them.

Tony Allen defence was good on Kobe ... Tony Allen was good defensive player but his shooting was bad...

Tony Allen had a 14 year career. That is a good pick.
And saying Perkins was mediocre is pathetic. Losing Perkins cost the Celtics a championship in 2009.

[playa-hater]

People seem to be forgetting the success Danny has had in the second round.
Leon Powe
Abel Nader
Ryan Gomes
E'Twaun Moore

I hope this is sarcasm.