The (Quadruple) Trade Thread, 2017 (Part 4.0)

[Andrew McCeltic]

I'd be interested in Drummond, he's still only 23. Detroit may turn it around and go on a winning streak, they're better than they've played. The Lowe article gets at that.

Re: bench scorers, there's Will Barton in Denver, Tyreke Evans, Okafor, Vucevic, Crabbe, Mclemore.

Skilled-ish bigs - Greg Monroe, Blake Griffin in the summer, Marc Gasol if the Grizzlies pack it in,

Grande said off the record, players say Bradley's one of the guys they hate to play against. Don't think we're trading him.

They're talking IT v. Iverson, missing two things - Iverson was a great defensive player; IT is playing in a different league, with less defense and better spacing.

[bigfoot_cryptozoology]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
with the Cavs in a Win Now position,
and Love questionable for the rest of the season,
that Love for Melo trade makes a bit more sense for them.
But, why would the rebuilding Knicks want an injured Love?
So, perfect to send him to a Third Team with a gambling GM
who will take a chance on Love's full recovery, and who is that gambling GM?
Do I even have to ask the question?

[chrisab123]

I really want danny to hold onto that 18 pick, so he is FORCED to select a young potential stud big

But I'm sure Danny will find another forward or PG that he can draft over that big. Somehow...

Or that big man better have a 3 point shot.

[LarryBirdsFingr]

I really want danny to hold onto that 18 pick, so he is FORCED to select a young potential stud big

But I'm sure Danny will find another forward or PG that he can draft over that big. Somehow...

Or that big man better have a 3 point shot.

prob

[chrisab123]

Just listening to Simmons' podcast and he had Sean Grande on, some pretty interesting reveals in the conversation. I think many Celtics' fans are more concerned about defensive rebounding than Ainge and the Celtics are. It seems like everyone on here, for logical reasons, is looking for a big, but it sounds like as Danny has said a while ago he is looking for an off the bench scorer.

I don't think Ainge will go all in for a Whiteside, or any other premier big because Stevens doesn't value that position. The Celtics understand that defensive rebounding is an area of weakness, but they believe that they can work around it. It will be interesting to see what Ainge actually does.

This is always been my concern. I don't think it's Brad. I think it's Danny. He has never valued bigs outside of KG. Especially ones that can rebound or protect the paint. It's very easy to see what the team philosophy is. Jack up 30+ 3 point shots a night and see what goes in and avoid driving in the paint if possible.

Which is kind of why I'm still shocked this team drafted Smart. This was probably one of the worst teams for him to go to for his development. Same with Brown. They aren't 3 point shooters. But they play excellent defense already so that helps. But I'm afraid the ceiling is lower for both than it would be on a lot of other teams.

Now Zizic won't be dealt because quite honestly there's no need to do so. Ainge went outside the box because he decided to keep all of his picks and really didn't have a choice. Yabu on the other hand is exactly the type of player that Ainge drafts. A tweener that has an outside shot.

But it does show this team has no interest in Okafor or Noel or any other big man on the market.

This is why Olynyk may stay put and Sully was let go. Ainge (and Brad) love mobile big men like Horford. They prefer bigs that can run the floor (see Zeller) or that can stretch the floor and pass (Horford, Oly). If you remember well, I think it was Smart or Bradley who said at the beginning of the season that everybody needs to help with the rebounding tasks, therefore they know it is something they have accepted to deal with.

So, who fits that description? A. Davis? Not in the market...

AD also would be someone that is a hard pass for Ainge. He's not someone who stretches the floor or can shoot 3's. He's a prototypical dominant big. I'll go to my grave saying it was Doc that pushed for Ainge to sign Jermaine O'Neal and Shaq. Those are not Danny Ainge run and gun players. Even a 10 year old could tell you this team needs some type of size in the paint. We've had a sample size of almost 15 years with Danny that says he doesn't value rebounding bigs that can protect the paint or score inside the paint. Olynyk is his wet dream but he would give it up for a forward not a center but a forward or a point guard that can shoot the 3 ball. Which gets super annoying.

[galipeautim]

This is always been my concern. I don't think it's Brad. I think it's Danny. He has never valued bigs outside of KG. Especially ones that can rebound or protect the paint. It's very easy to see what the team philosophy is. Jack up 30+ 3 point shots a night and see what goes in and avoid driving in the paint if possible.

Which is kind of why I'm still shocked this team drafted Smart. This was probably one of the worst teams for him to go to for his development. Same with Brown. They aren't 3 point shooters. But they play excellent defense already so that helps. But I'm afraid the ceiling is lower for both than it would be on a lot of other teams.

Now Zizic won't be dealt because quite honestly there's no need to do so. Ainge went outside the box because he decided to keep all of his picks and really didn't have a choice. Yabu on the other hand is exactly the type of player that Ainge drafts. A tweener that has an outside shot.

But it does show this team has no interest in Okafor or Noel or any other big man on the market.

This is why Olynyk may stay put and Sully was let go. Ainge (and Brad) love mobile big men like Horford. They prefer bigs that can run the floor (see Zeller) or that can stretch the floor and pass (Horford, Oly). If you remember well, I think it was Smart or Bradley who said at the beginning of the season that everybody needs to help with the rebounding tasks, therefore they know it is something they have accepted to deal with.

So, who fits that description? A. Davis? Not in the market...

AD also would be someone that is a hard pass for Ainge. He's not someone who stretches the floor or can shoot 3's. He's a prototypical dominant big. I'll go to my grave saying it was Doc that pushed for Ainge to sign Jermaine O'Neal and Shaq. Those are not Danny Ainge run and gun players. Even a 10 year old could tell you this team needs some type of size in the paint. We've had a sample size of almost 15 years with Danny that says he doesn't value rebounding bigs that can protect the paint or score inside the paint. Olynyk is his wet dream but he would give it up for a forward not a center but a forward or a point guard that can shoot the 3 ball. Which gets super annoying.

Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, Kevin Garnett...not sure what you are talking about

[chrisab123]

This is why Olynyk may stay put and Sully was let go. Ainge (and Brad) love mobile big men like Horford. They prefer bigs that can run the floor (see Zeller) or that can stretch the floor and pass (Horford, Oly). If you remember well, I think it was Smart or Bradley who said at the beginning of the season that everybody needs to help with the rebounding tasks, therefore they know it is something they have accepted to deal with.

So, who fits that description? A. Davis? Not in the market...

AD also would be someone that is a hard pass for Ainge. He's not someone who stretches the floor or can shoot 3's. He's a prototypical dominant big. I'll go to my grave saying it was Doc that pushed for Ainge to sign Jermaine O'Neal and Shaq. Those are not Danny Ainge run and gun players. Even a 10 year old could tell you this team needs some type of size in the paint. We've had a sample size of almost 15 years with Danny that says he doesn't value rebounding bigs that can protect the paint or score inside the paint. Olynyk is his wet dream but he would give it up for a forward not a center but a forward or a point guard that can shoot the 3 ball. Which gets super annoying.

Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, Kevin Garnett...not sure what you are talking about

Besides KG which I think was someone Danny was legitimately interested in you could easily say the other two were Doc Rivers call. Ever since Doc left Danny wanted to go with a certain vision which results in this team getting owned on the boards every single night. The fact he has a huge aversion to this glaring problem is going to cost the Celtics.

Big Al was also a turnstile in the paint and Perk wasn't exactly Rodman on the boards.

[DarkAzcura]

This is always been my concern. I don't think it's Brad. I think it's Danny. He has never valued bigs outside of KG. Especially ones that can rebound or protect the paint. It's very easy to see what the team philosophy is. Jack up 30+ 3 point shots a night and see what goes in and avoid driving in the paint if possible.

Which is kind of why I'm still shocked this team drafted Smart. This was probably one of the worst teams for him to go to for his development. Same with Brown. They aren't 3 point shooters. But they play excellent defense already so that helps. But I'm afraid the ceiling is lower for both than it would be on a lot of other teams.

Now Zizic won't be dealt because quite honestly there's no need to do so. Ainge went outside the box because he decided to keep all of his picks and really didn't have a choice. Yabu on the other hand is exactly the type of player that Ainge drafts. A tweener that has an outside shot.

But it does show this team has no interest in Okafor or Noel or any other big man on the market.

This is why Olynyk may stay put and Sully was let go. Ainge (and Brad) love mobile big men like Horford. They prefer bigs that can run the floor (see Zeller) or that can stretch the floor and pass (Horford, Oly). If you remember well, I think it was Smart or Bradley who said at the beginning of the season that everybody needs to help with the rebounding tasks, therefore they know it is something they have accepted to deal with.

So, who fits that description? A. Davis? Not in the market...

AD also would be someone that is a hard pass for Ainge. He's not someone who stretches the floor or can shoot 3's. He's a prototypical dominant big. I'll go to my grave saying it was Doc that pushed for Ainge to sign Jermaine O'Neal and Shaq. Those are not Danny Ainge run and gun players. Even a 10 year old could tell you this team needs some type of size in the paint. We've had a sample size of almost 15 years with Danny that says he doesn't value rebounding bigs that can protect the paint or score inside the paint. Olynyk is his wet dream but he would give it up for a forward not a center but a forward or a point guard that can shoot the 3 ball. Which gets super annoying.

Well Ainge has picked guys like Jefferson and Perkins. Granted it's been years.

Anyway let's say Ainge doesn't like picking bigs..probably true..is he that off? A great PG or wing can carry you to the playoffs these days. A great big doesn't guarantee you anything anymore unfortunately. Davis, Cousins, KAT..none of them are winning right now.

I dunno.

[chrisab123]

This is why Olynyk may stay put and Sully was let go. Ainge (and Brad) love mobile big men like Horford. They prefer bigs that can run the floor (see Zeller) or that can stretch the floor and pass (Horford, Oly). If you remember well, I think it was Smart or Bradley who said at the beginning of the season that everybody needs to help with the rebounding tasks, therefore they know it is something they have accepted to deal with.

So, who fits that description? A. Davis? Not in the market...

AD also would be someone that is a hard pass for Ainge. He's not someone who stretches the floor or can shoot 3's. He's a prototypical dominant big. I'll go to my grave saying it was Doc that pushed for Ainge to sign Jermaine O'Neal and Shaq. Those are not Danny Ainge run and gun players. Even a 10 year old could tell you this team needs some type of size in the paint. We've had a sample size of almost 15 years with Danny that says he doesn't value rebounding bigs that can protect the paint or score inside the paint. Olynyk is his wet dream but he would give it up for a forward not a center but a forward or a point guard that can shoot the 3 ball. Which gets super annoying.

Well Ainge has picked guys like Jefferson and Perkins. Granted it's been years.

Anyway let's say Ainge doesn't like picking bigs..probably true..is he that off? A great PG or wing can carry you to the playoffs these days. A great big doesn't guarantee you anything anymore unfortunately. Davis, Cousins, KAT..none of them are winning right now.

I dunno.

Getting to the playoffs I agree. Those players that you mentioned have never had the supporting cast this team has. The Celtics claim that they want to emulate the Spurs but the Spurs had dominant bigs. I don't understand the aversion.

[reload141]

I think we need a legit wing starting scorer who can create his own shot and get to the line to relieve the pressure off IT more than center.... even though we have Zizic coming over next year

[Homerclease]

I think we need a legit wing starting scorer who can create his own shot and get to the line to relieve the pressure off IT more than center.... even though we have Zizic coming over next year

That guy is currently playing in Utah and will be here next year along with Zizic I hope. This year the goal should be make the ECF and shake the hell out of the cavs. Next year will be our first year within striking distance IMO

[reload141]

I think we need a legit wing starting scorer who can create his own shot and get to the line to relieve the pressure off IT more than center.... even though we have Zizic coming over next year

That guy is currently playing in Utah and will be here next year along with Zizic I hope. This year the goal should be make the ECF and shake the hell out of the cavs. Next year will be our first year within striking distance IMO

Totally agree. I think we only realistically start trading any "core" players and either Brown or the Brooklyn 17/18 pick once Hayward signs and then we can package up picks/players and overpay for the missing piece.

[Ben-N1ce]

I think we need a legit wing starting scorer who can create his own shot and get to the line to relieve the pressure off IT more than center.... even though we have Zizic coming over next year

I'd rather get Lou Williams for cheap and give us the best bench in the league and a scorer for them droughts.

[NotALongIslandr]

I don't understand what the problem is with just making a deal for Chandler to shore up rebounding/interior D and make a legit run at the Cavs this year, knowing Zizic is coming over next year. Is it all about saving cap space for the remaining 2 years on Chandler's deal in hopes of signing Opie in FA? Just throw in the rights to Yabu or a low #1 and get it done, DA:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=gwehs39

[Banks2Pierce]

But I'm sure Danny will find another forward or PG that he can draft over that big. Somehow...

Or that big man better have a 3 point shot.

Like, what are you even criticizing here? You wanted some stiff over Marcus Smart or Jaylen Brown? The guys that went 27th or 44th over Olynyk and James Young? I don't get it.

[Wes-J]

No on Whiteside. You don't just about empty the treasure chest for a guy that helps with rebounding and protects the rim.

But do you empty the cup holder full of loose change for that guy? I think you might. Hayward's an elite scorer, but we've got two more BKN picks and trades to get someone as good as he is if we lose the cap room.

FWIW, Whiteside averages 14.1 rebounds in 32.9 minutes. Amir, in 19.9 minutes, averages 4.6 rebounds. Zeller, in 12 minutes, averages 3 rebounds. So give their minutes to Whiteside and you're getting 14 boards instead of 7 and a half.

It doesn't translate perfectly, the 6.5 extra rebounds a night, but we're currently 26th in rebound differential, and Miami is 20th.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/team-rebound-differential-per-game/2016/
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game/sort/avgReboundsDifference

If you did just add Whiteside's boards, he'd tip us up 1 offensive board and 6 defensive, and make us a top 10 rebounding team all by himself.

Trying to get more data, found http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000208-sports-and-racing-nba/73613776

But then someone did some mathematical investigation and arrived at a number that makes disregarding his blocks kinda stupid: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CgbE9DVUAAEPz7C.jpg

The sheer volume of blocks he's had this season and the technique he uses to keep them in bounds means he, as a defender, generates more possessions for his team than Kawhi Leonard does, by a significant margin. His blocks matter. He's not just volleyball spiking the rock into the front row, he's actively turning them into potential points, which is a valuable quality and something the Heat rely upon.


Nobody said his blocks don't matter, it's just people overvalue them. You posted some weird stat. I mean, a large part of Kawhi's defensive ability isn't how many possessions they retain, it's moreso how many points are prevented.

Here's more Whiteside stats.

He's ranked 7th worst in the NBA in post up giving up an average of 0.99 PPP and ranked in the 24th percentile in the NBA. He's a little better in the PnR game allowing only 0.86 PPP but that's again, good not great.

Tough player to evaluate.

Cup of loose change? Yeah I don't think so. It's going to take a lot more than that to pry him from Riley's half dead fingers. At minimum one BRK pick among multiple picks then salary filler.

[galipeautim]

AD also would be someone that is a hard pass for Ainge. He's not someone who stretches the floor or can shoot 3's. He's a prototypical dominant big. I'll go to my grave saying it was Doc that pushed for Ainge to sign Jermaine O'Neal and Shaq. Those are not Danny Ainge run and gun players. Even a 10 year old could tell you this team needs some type of size in the paint. We've had a sample size of almost 15 years with Danny that says he doesn't value rebounding bigs that can protect the paint or score inside the paint. Olynyk is his wet dream but he would give it up for a forward not a center but a forward or a point guard that can shoot the 3 ball. Which gets super annoying.

Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, Kevin Garnett...not sure what you are talking about

Besides KG which I think was someone Danny was legitimately interested in you could easily say the other two were Doc Rivers call. Ever since Doc left Danny wanted to go with a certain vision which results in this team getting owned on the boards every single night. The fact he has a huge aversion to this glaring problem is going to cost the Celtics.

Big Al was also a turnstile in the paint and Perk wasn't exactly Rodman on the boards.

That's the way the NBA is moving. How successful have teams with big back to the basket centers been in the last few years. Even guys like Horford are jacking up 3's now. It's not DA. That's the entire NBA. Okafor would have been an all star ten years ago. Now he'll be traded for a late first rounder.

[chrisab123]

But I'm sure Danny will find another forward or PG that he can draft over that big. Somehow...

Or that big man better have a 3 point shot.

Like, what are you even criticizing here? You wanted some stiff over Marcus Smart or Jaylen Brown? The guys that went 27th or 44th over Olynyk and James Young? I don't get it.

My criticism stands with Danny Ainge constantly overlooking the rebounding issue this team has. The lack of emphasis he puts on having a quality big man on the team to protect the paint

[Froob]

I really want danny to hold onto that 18 pick, so he is FORCED to select a young potential stud big

What do you think of Zizic? Is he a big time center? Maybe Steven Adams quality at least rebounding and defense wise? I don't think we should make a trade for a guy like Nikola Vucevic with Zizic in the wings on a rookie deal.

[Curmudgeon]

What do you think of Zizic? Is he a big time center? Maybe Steven Adams quality at least rebounding and defense wise? I don't think we should make a trade for a guy like Nikola Vucevic with Zizic in the wings on a rookie deal.

Zizic is going to be foul prone until he understands the NBA game. He may get to Adams' level, but not right away.