All Things 2017 Draft

[Slartibartfast]

I know it's hard to think about 2nd round/undrafted types with our top 4 pick and the overload of lower-level prospects already on the squad but I really like Chris Boucher. I think he's going to be a useful pro.

[Wes-J]

If Celtics get #2 pick and draft Ball and Lakers get Josh Jackson at #3..... would you entertain this trade?

Jaylen/Ball for Josh/Ingram.

Personally I think Jaylen showed me more than Ingram so I wouldn't .... but last year Ingram looked like a perfect fit for Brad's system and I think Josh has a more rounded offensve game than Jae and probably will be an even better defender.

No. Jaylen is getting key defensive assignments against a borderline All-NBA player in the playoffs. Brandon Ingram is at home drinking a protein shake.

I know that's not Ingram's fault, derp. I am just saying that people are underestimating the progress Jaylen has made this year. He's proven his outside shot can translate to the NBA, and he's flashed elite defensive potential. Even if he never becomes more than a 15 PPG scorer, you're basically talking about a rich man's Jae Crowder, which is a fantastic player to have under control for half a decade.

Not an easy choice for me but I would keep Jaylen. I still think Ingram is going to be a monster.

[Gomes3PC]

I know it's hard to think about 2nd round/undrafted types with our top 4 pick and the overload of lower-level prospects already on the squad but I really like Chris Boucher. I think he's going to be a useful pro.

There's going to be some interesting guys around for that Minny pick. In no particular order, guys I like in the 20-40 range:

Donovan Mitchell - elite defensive potential
Harry Giles - high risk/reward, fills rebounding need we have at PF
Alec Peters - just have a sense he's gonna be in the league 8 years getting 20 MPG
Johnathan Motley - diverse skillset and has foot speed to defend modern perimeter-oriented game
Josh Hart / Sindarius Thornwell - both these guys are going to be really solid players, especially Thornwell IMO
DJ Wilson - really skilled kid for his size

The way this draft looks, there's a great top 10/11, then a big vacuum for ~15-20 picks, and then there's good depth again all the way into the 40s IMO.

[Gomes3PC]

If Celtics get #2 pick and draft Ball and Lakers get Josh Jackson at #3..... would you entertain this trade?

Jaylen/Ball for Josh/Ingram.

Personally I think Jaylen showed me more than Ingram so I wouldn't .... but last year Ingram looked like a perfect fit for Brad's system and I think Josh has a more rounded offensve game than Jae and probably will be an even better defender.

No. Jaylen is getting key defensive assignments against a borderline All-NBA player in the playoffs. Brandon Ingram is at home drinking a protein shake.

I know that's not Ingram's fault, derp. I am just saying that people are underestimating the progress Jaylen has made this year. He's proven his outside shot can translate to the NBA, and he's flashed elite defensive potential. Even if he never becomes more than a 15 PPG scorer, you're basically talking about a rich man's Jae Crowder, which is a fantastic player to have under control for half a decade.

Not an easy choice for me but I would keep Jaylen. I still think Ingram is going to be a monster.

I just think Ingram is going to have a really long curve. You're probably not going to see him be a plus player til you have to decide whether to pay him a second contract or not. He's just SO far from being physically ready to compete on the wing in the NBA, and unlike early era Durant, he's not quick enough to hide at SG.

I was impressed with his vision and he seems to have a decent motor, so I still expect he'll be a good player, but I have loved the flashes I've seen with Jaylen. Maybe it's fool's gold and he never pieces it together, but I'll bet on him developing with this staff.

[London2Boston]

If Celtics get #2 pick and draft Ball and Lakers get Josh Jackson at #3..... would you entertain this trade?

Jaylen/Ball for Josh/Ingram.

Personally I think Jaylen showed me more than Ingram so I wouldn't .... but last year Ingram looked like a perfect fit for Brad's system and I think Josh has a more rounded offensve game than Jae and probably will be an even better defender.

Jaylen is and will be better than Ingram imo and Ball is better than Jackson so unlikely.

[SmartWentCrazy]

No. Jaylen is getting key defensive assignments against a borderline All-NBA player in the playoffs. Brandon Ingram is at home drinking a protein shake.

I know that's not Ingram's fault, derp. I am just saying that people are underestimating the progress Jaylen has made this year. He's proven his outside shot can translate to the NBA, and he's flashed elite defensive potential. Even if he never becomes more than a 15 PPG scorer, you're basically talking about a rich man's Jae Crowder, which is a fantastic player to have under control for half a decade.

Not an easy choice for me but I would keep Jaylen. I still think Ingram is going to be a monster.

I just think Ingram is going to have a really long curve. You're probably not going to see him be a plus player til you have to decide whether to pay him a second contract or not. He's just SO far from being physically ready to compete on the wing in the NBA, and unlike early era Durant, he's not quick enough to hide at SG.

I was impressed with his vision and he seems to have a decent motor, so I still expect he'll be a good player, but I have loved the flashes I've seen with Jaylen. Maybe it's fool's gold and he never pieces it together, but I'll bet on him developing with this staff.

+1

The problem with Ingram developmentally is that his frame just isn't meant to hold a lot of mass. His hips are narrow, shoulders slender and he has wiry limbs. I strongly doubt his ability to add 25-30 LBS, which is what he needs to survive physically on the wing. The problem is, 25-30 pounds will greatly strain his joints/ligaments and could result in injury. I also strongly doubt that he's athletic enough to be a guard long term.

He has a fantastic handle and great natural length, but his long term outlook is murky due to his size.

[jmr07019]

i love fultz but Jackson is a dawg and I want MOAR DAWGZ

[pasfru]

Yes, Ball is a transcendent passer. He is on the level of a Wall, Kidd, Nash, CP3 type of passer.

Ok Lavar. Settle down now.

How is this even debatable?

Even his hardest critics would say he's a gifted passer.

[Edug27]

Yes, Ball is a transcendent passer. He is on the level of a Wall, Kidd, Nash, CP3 type of passer.

Ok Lavar. Settle down now.

How is this even debatable?

Even his hardest critics would say he's a gifted passer.

Gifted is one thing. But you're putting Ball on the same level as the best passers and floor generals of the last decade? Hmm... Yea. Not debatable at all. Guess Fultz's scoring ability is on the level of prime D.Wade.

[Gomes3PC]

Prime Wade? No. But Fultz is about as good as Wade was in that regard at Marquette. Would not shock me at all if Fultz turns into that kind elite finisher at the rim along the lines of a Wade or Harden.

[pasfru]

Ok Lavar. Settle down now.

How is this even debatable?

Even his hardest critics would say he's a gifted passer.

Gifted is one thing. But you're putting Ball on the same level as the best passers and floor generals of the last decade? Hmm... Yea. Not debatable at all. Guess Fultz's scoring ability is on the level of prime D.Wade.

Considering writers all across the country are writing about how special a passer he is, considering his AST:TO ratio is otherworldly good in comparison to other point gods like CP3, Stockton, Kidd and Nash at the same age, considering he was doing all that while playing more of an off-ball role at UCLA last year, considering his scoring and passing efficiency at 19 blows all those former greats out of the water, it's really not that far-fetched.

The thing I hate the most about "internet scouting" is the abundance of people who are afraid to make any kind of reach. Everyone's too safe with their takes, as if they're trying to take care of some non-existent reputation.

There's nothing wrong with a little hyperbole. Especially when the facts back it up quite nicely.

I don't know if he'll ever reach that level, but I think he's certainly on-track. I don't know how some of you can watch him play and see anything but star really.

[rochrist]

If Celtics get #2 pick and draft Ball and Lakers get Josh Jackson at #3..... would you entertain this trade?

Jaylen/Ball for Josh/Ingram.

Personally I think Jaylen showed me more than Ingram so I wouldn't .... but last year Ingram looked like a perfect fit for Brad's system and I think Josh has a more rounded offensve game than Jae and probably will be an even better defender.

Jesus no. I have my doubts Ingram is ever going to be a special player. Just don't draft Ball and you're all set.

[rochrist]

How is this even debatable?

Even his hardest critics would say he's a gifted passer.

Gifted is one thing. But you're putting Ball on the same level as the best passers and floor generals of the last decade? Hmm... Yea. Not debatable at all. Guess Fultz's scoring ability is on the level of prime D.Wade.

Considering writers all across the country are writing about how special a passer he is, considering his AST:TO ratio is otherworldly good in comparison to other point gods like CP3, Stockton, Kidd and Nash at the same age, considering he was doing all that while playing more of an off-ball role at UCLA last year, considering his scoring and passing efficiency at 19 blows all those former greats out of the water, it's really not that far-fetched.

The thing I hate the most about "internet scouting" is the abundance of people who are afraid to make any kind of reach. Everyone's too safe with their takes, as if they're trying to take care of some non-existent reputation.

There's nothing wrong with a little hyperbole. Especially when the facts back it up quite nicely.

I don't know if he'll ever reach that level, but I think he's certainly on-track. I don't know how some of you can watch him play and see anything but star really.

I see a guy who will struggle to get his shot off against men, and how lacks the quickness to penetrate.

[ryaningf]

Not an easy choice for me but I would keep Jaylen. I still think Ingram is going to be a monster.

I just think Ingram is going to have a really long curve. You're probably not going to see him be a plus player til you have to decide whether to pay him a second contract or not. He's just SO far from being physically ready to compete on the wing in the NBA, and unlike early era Durant, he's not quick enough to hide at SG.

I was impressed with his vision and he seems to have a decent motor, so I still expect he'll be a good player, but I have loved the flashes I've seen with Jaylen. Maybe it's fool's gold and he never pieces it together, but I'll bet on him developing with this staff.

+1

The problem with Ingram developmentally is that his frame just isn't meant to hold a lot of mass. His hips are narrow, shoulders slender and he has wiry limbs. I strongly doubt his ability to add 25-30 LBS, which is what he needs to survive physically on the wing. The problem is, 25-30 pounds will greatly strain his joints/ligaments and could result in injury. I also strongly doubt that he's athletic enough to be a guard long term.

He has a fantastic handle and great natural length, but his long term outlook is murky due to his size.

Ingram really came on the last 25 games of the season. I don't think there's anything murky about his outlook due to his "size" - he's going to be good and possibly great if he can figure out how to affect games defensively.

His frame is slender but I think you're mistaken about what he needs to survive in the NBA. 25-30 pounds is overboard, more like 10-15 lbs, put on over 5-7 seasons. Guys just naturally get stronger with age and that's pretty much all that's separating Ingram from his potential - time. Let's remember what happened to Jordan Mickey - he heard about needing to put on muscle to play bigger and he went nutz and came back with a lot of bad weight last summer and hasn't ever recovered. You just don't add weight to get stronger; weight does not equal strength. Strength can be developed without even adding weight, especially for slim athletes like Ingram, it's simply a matter of low reps + high intensity.

As for this proposed trade, I think Ball/Jaylen is just superior in a number of ways. A much better synergy of skillset - both guys thrive in transition and Jaylen projects to a great finisher in the half court as well, something Ball can exploit. And if Jaylen ever develops lead guard skills then Ball has shown himself to be a very good off-ball finisher as well.

I don't think Jackson (who I like a lot) and Ingram work very well together. There's a lot of overlap in their skillsets.

[Edug27]

How is this even debatable?

Even his hardest critics would say he's a gifted passer.

Gifted is one thing. But you're putting Ball on the same level as the best passers and floor generals of the last decade? Hmm... Yea. Not debatable at all. Guess Fultz's scoring ability is on the level of prime D.Wade.

Considering writers all across the country are writing about how special a passer he is, considering his AST:TO ratio is otherworldly good in comparison to other point gods like CP3, Stockton, Kidd and Nash at the same age, considering he was doing all that while playing more of an off-ball role at UCLA last year, considering his scoring and passing efficiency at 19 blows all those former greats out of the water, it's really not that far-fetched.

The thing I hate the most about "internet scouting" is the abundance of people who are afraid to make any kind of reach. Everyone's too safe with their takes, as if they're trying to take care of some non-existent reputation.

There's nothing wrong with a little hyperbole. Especially when the facts back it up quite nicely.

I don't know if he'll ever reach that level, but I think he's certainly on-track. I don't know how some of you can watch him play and see anything but star really.

Oh brother. There's a ton of reaches per day on this board. So the "fear" to make a reach is definitely not the problem. You can be a good passer and still not be on the level of Kidd, Nash and CP. That's the real problem here. You're either Nick Young or Magic Johnson as a passer. There's no in-between. But whatever. We can revisit this one day.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Ingram really came on the last 25 games of the season. I don't think there's anything murky about his outlook due to his "size" - he's going to be good and possibly great if he can figure out how to affect games defensively.

I'm gonna weight a 79 game sample more than a 25 game sample. He did not have a good year. At all. Like, he has a VERY far way to go to even reach an average level.

What does he even do well right now? He shot terribly from everywhere beyond 3 feet. He was a poor FT shooter. He wasn't a strong rebounder and was a poor creator for others given the amount of time he played PG.

His frame is slender but I think you're mistaken about what he needs to survive in the NBA. 25-30 pounds is overboard, more like 10-15 lbs, put on over 5-7 seasons. Guys just naturally get stronger with age and that's pretty much all that's separating Ingram from his potential - time. Let's remember what happened to Jordan Mickey - he heard about needing to put on muscle to play bigger and he went nutz and came back with a lot of bad weight last summer and hasn't ever recovered. You just don't add weight to get stronger; weight does not equal strength. Strength can be developed without even adding weight, especially for slim athletes like Ingram, it's simply a matter of low reps + high intensity.

He was listed at 190 lbs and is 6'9. I'd bet he played a substantial amount of time in the 180's, too. Let's assume his listed weight is correct, though. How many wings are playing at a high level at 6'9 200? You can't seriously think that 10 lbs is all he needs, especially when small ball PF is probably his best position at this moment due to his athleticism.

I mean, the guy he was (incorrectly) compared to pre-draft, Kevin Durant, has 50 lbs on him. Andrew Wiggins, who is infinitely more athletic, has 10 lbs on him. Asking him to get up to 215 is no where near overboard.

And obviously I'm referring to strength with weight. No idea why you felt the need to nitpick that, but kudos.

[London2Boston]

Fair play to Fultz for being one of the few top 10 prospects that hasn't withdrawn from the Draft Combine yet.

[ryaningf]

Ingram really came on the last 25 games of the season. I don't think there's anything murky about his outlook due to his "size" - he's going to be good and possibly great if he can figure out how to affect games defensively.

I'm gonna weight a 79 game sample more than a 25 game sample. He did not have a good year. At all. Like, he has a VERY far way to go to even reach an average level.

When evaluating a young player (who is likely on a growth curve of some sort), breaking up the season into chunks to ascertain the rate of growth is a good way to judge if they're improving and if so how fast. Weighting the entire season only makes sense 7-10 years down the road when you're looking at longer trends.

He was listed at 190 lbs and is 6'9. I'd bet he played a substantial amount of time in the 180's, too. Let's assume his listed weight is correct, though. How many wings are playing at a high level at 6'9 200? You can't seriously think that 10 lbs is all he needs, especially when small ball PF is probably his best position at this moment due to his athleticism.

I mean, the guy he was (incorrectly) compared to pre-draft, Kevin Durant, has 50 lbs on him. Andrew Wiggins, who is infinitely more athletic, has 10 lbs on him. Asking him to get up to 215 is no where near overboard.

And obviously I'm referring to strength with weight. No idea why you felt the need to nitpick that, but kudos.

You're confusing the two terms (and do so in this very post) to make a poor argument so a clarification was in order. Strength is something you can actually rate based on specific basketball situations, whereas weight is a # that comes from a scale that we likely will never have access to. But sure keep telling me about all the player weights you found in your google search.

[pasfru]

Gifted is one thing. But you're putting Ball on the same level as the best passers and floor generals of the last decade? Hmm... Yea. Not debatable at all. Guess Fultz's scoring ability is on the level of prime D.Wade.

Considering writers all across the country are writing about how special a passer he is, considering his AST:TO ratio is otherworldly good in comparison to other point gods like CP3, Stockton, Kidd and Nash at the same age, considering he was doing all that while playing more of an off-ball role at UCLA last year, considering his scoring and passing efficiency at 19 blows all those former greats out of the water, it's really not that far-fetched.

The thing I hate the most about "internet scouting" is the abundance of people who are afraid to make any kind of reach. Everyone's too safe with their takes, as if they're trying to take care of some non-existent reputation.

There's nothing wrong with a little hyperbole. Especially when the facts back it up quite nicely.

I don't know if he'll ever reach that level, but I think he's certainly on-track. I don't know how some of you can watch him play and see anything but star really.

I see a guy who will struggle to get his shot off against men, and how lacks the quickness to penetrate.

I see a guy who should've struggled with his shot in college and did the complete opposite. I see a guy who'll adapt to whatever scheme or setup he's thrown into. Great players do that.

Lonzo may not be John Wall/Russell Westbrook level explosive, but he's still quick. The guy's a blur in the open court.

[Banks2Pierce]

I know it's hard to think about 2nd round/undrafted types with our top 4 pick and the overload of lower-level prospects already on the squad but I really like Chris Boucher. I think he's going to be a useful pro.

Tore his ACL late in the season so I'm out. Liked him. Fan of Swanigan in that range. Nostalgic for the training camp weight analysis.