It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread

[keevsnick1]

I'm feeling like keeping Kemba becomes a stronger option as each game goes by. He doesn't look hurt at all out there. The only real knock on him now is that he doesn't play back to backs- but he could. We are just choosing (wisely) not to play him to increase our chances in the playoffs.

Can we realistically duck the over tax line next season? Thats the question. Tatum will get a big pay hike. We don't know what we have with Fournier yet or how much keeping him will cost. If we could delay the repeater tax another year it might be worht trading Kemba. But once you go over you might as well really go over- as long as the players are good. There has been a lot of talk about losing guys for nothing. When you are under the cap, it doens't matter so much as you can just sign a new guy or make a trade that takes on salary. Once we are all in and over the tax line we are really limited in how we add players.

Maybe we just hold on to Kemba and 2 years from now, he is the expiring contract we attach Romeo or Nesmith too and bring back the final piece to the puzzle.

Ernest, I'm glad you brought this up. It's an interesting evolving debate. Here's the debate at the surface level, for me anyways. I've got 3 players to consider after this season: Kemba, Marcus, and FournHub. We won't be in the tax this year so next year we could go over. But as we all know, it starts to get REAL expensive, real fast once you wade into this territory. So...

Marcus: Could be an ideal starting primary ballhandler for this team. Best passer on the team. Best defender. Enables Brad to field completely switchable lineups. A leader on the floor and in the lockeroom. Someone that everyone respects. Maybe command close to 20M 2 years from now which is a considerable discount from Kemba. Ideally, doesn't need a ton of shots to function on this team which is ideal if Kemba or FournHub are taking more (which they should). But he's also the most tradeable of the 3. Almost any team would want him and you could get in return for him a player or players in a package that could fill in what remaining holes you might have. Plus, I don't think it takes a star primary ballhandler to run this offense. It can fit most guys as we've seen.

Kemba: Still an explosive guy who can carry you for quarters if not games anymore. Well-respected leader on this team. It's taken him all year but he finally looks more bouncy from game to game, and maybe even just as important, he's looking more and more like he's finally finding his fit with the Jays on the court. Remember earlier it looked so awkward with all of them on the court together? Doesn't look like that lately. He told everyone that HE needed to adjust to fit in with our 2 young stars, not the other way around and lately, it looks like he finally has. Starting to pass the ball well and be a playmaker for others now which is not something he has really done. I think as Fournier gets added to the mix, you'll see that blossom even further. He's converting at the rim now at like 70%. His jumper is still off though and inconsistent. Plus, it's gonna be hard to move him in the offseason. We'll need to add sweeteners to get him off this team.

FournHub: This is the wildcard. Right now he's a relative unknown. But if everyone was calling this acquisition "Hayward-lite", how likely is it that his skillset is NOT gonna translate here? We've already seen in a small sample size what he can do. His shooting blends with the Jay's so well here it's scary. He and Smart need less Usage than Kemba to impact the game around our 2 main guys. He spreads the floor. He moves without the ball. As a tertiary scorer, with HIS efficiency, what do you think would happen if you gave him Kemba's 15 shots in this system? But we didn't give up much for him. 2 2nd rounders are nothing. Could Danny afford the optics of how it would look to let him leave? He may want similar to what Smart will get. How about another sign n trade if he doesn't want to stay here. Can you really sign him and NOT prepare for him to be a starter next season next to the Jays? Would he even agree to that? Middle of the season is one thing but I imagine, Evan thinks himself a starter.

Sorry for the book but if this brings us back to your thought at the end, could we actually keep all 3? Would that even work? I kinda feel like one way or another, a choice will have to be made.

I think we can keep all 3. Guards and wings run the league these days.

What this season has shown us is you need depth. If we are able to finally get Walker/Fournier/Smart/Tatum/Brown all healthy together for an extended period of time, we could really be tough to stop. If Time Lord can get healthy and keep developing he'll be even better next season which is scary since this season he's top 10 in the NBA in PER, BPM, TS%, FG%, rebounding %, blocks %, offensive rating and defensive rating.

This was a weird season with COVID, an insane amount of injuries/illness, a highly condensed schedule of games. Next season if we keep this core together, they get more time to gel and stay healthy, we could be scary..

I've said this before but I dont think all three are on the roster after next years trade deadline. If we let Fournier go and basically just run it back next year adding our draft pick and minimums we will still be in the tax. Which means bringing Fournier back at 20 million per or so puts us 25+ million into the tax. Look, it's not my money. I certainly HOPE ownership pays whatever it takes, but I seriously doubt they will.

Realistically I cant see them going more than 10-15 million over the tax.

I really do think the plan may be trade kemba. That opens up flexibility, and Fournier is basically a larger kemba replacement. Who hopefully you can get for like 18 million vs 36 next year for Kemba

[JediMasterRevan]

I really like Rob Williams but he is always hurt. Gotta upgrade starting center.

Also it is an absolute must to do something about Grant Williams playing 20 minutes per game. I have been hoping but have not seen yet Parker playing more than Grant even though over the last 2 games there has been zero reason for that to happen. For all his faults Parker is vastly superior a player than Grant.

When Fournier is back I am not as concerned with having to play Romeo out there as Romeo shouldn't ever have to shoot the ball.

And Kemba gotta go for a defensive playmaker at PG (Still hoping for Ball)
But assuming Kemba is stuck here until his contract is up.

Kemba/Pritchard/?????
Smart/Fournier/?????
Brown/Romeo or Nesmith
Tatum/Parker/?????
???/Thompson/Kornet

Would love Ball and Wood to be the starting PG and Center next season.

lol, wow giving up on Time Lord already? You do realize that he's top 10 in the entire NBA in FG%, TS%, PER, BPM, offensive rating, defensive rating, blocks % and rebounding %, right? And he's only 23, not to mention one of the better passing bigs in the league.

Some of the games he's missed this season were to COVID, not injury. Celtics have played 58 games. Time Lord has played in 47. Out of the 11 games he's missed, 4 of them were due to COVID and 1 was due to a non COVID related illness. So that means out of 58 games he has only missed 6 to injury.

I dont want to, but it might have to be planned on.

He was on a "Minutes restriction" for almost the entire season.

[hugepatsfan]

Offseason deal...

BOS gets: F Al Faroq Aminu (taken into remainder of Hayward TPE), G Tomas Satoransky (his $5M partial guarantee taken into Theis TPE), G Colby White
CHI gets: G Payton Pritchard, G Aaron Nesmith

This deal creates the cap space CHI needs to go sign Lonzo Ball to an offer sheet NO won't match, who they reportedly covet. White hasn't blossomed there next to Lavine which is a reason they want Lonzo. Pritchard fits very well as a backup PG there and then Nesmith could develop as a bench shooter.

White fits the mold of what Stevens has liked as a fast, scoring PG. He can be the bench scorer for now, but he has the upside to develop into Kemba's eventual replacement, compared to a guy like Pritchard who really is just a backup IMO. It's an upside buy for sure.

Sato would have his $5M partial guarantee waived and stretched since we wouldn't have a need for him.

Now you wait 30 days so Aminu's expiring salary can be aggregated in another trade...

BOS gets: C Al Horford
OKC gets: C Tristan Thompson, F Al Faroq-Aminu, G Carsen Edwards

We all talk about Timelord's shot blocking, but I think it's the OFFENSE that has taken off with him starting. His ability as a passer has opened things up a ton. Tatum/Brown are still learning how to be better playmakers for others. Smart's lack of finishing ability inside makes it tougher for him to break the defense down off the dribble because they don't over-help on him in the paint. The ability to put those eventual ball handlers in off ball movement before they actually get the ball has been a "head start" or "cheat code" to helping them break defenses down off the dribble once they do get it. That's made possible by Timelord's ability as a passer to start plays.

We all know Horford brings that same skill set. And at this stage of his career, we can basically upgrade from Thompson to him for free. It's all about financial savings for OKC.

Also you compliment these moves by re-signing Fournier to a 3 year deal. Sets you up for a rotation of:

Kemba / White
Smart / Langford
Brown / Fournier
Tatum / Parker or Grant
Timelord / Horford (or start Horford, idk)

We also have our 1st rounder and the MLE and vet min signings.

For '21-22 this is definitely an expensive roster. No doubt. And then in '22-23 it's incredibly expensive if you assume Smart and Rob will be re-signed and you decide to pay Horford $26M to play vs $14.5M to walk.

However, that next year Kemba and Horford expire so you go back below the tax again. Fournier will be an expiring deal that makes him a possible trade chip. Hopefully guys like White, Langford, and our next couple of 1st rounders have developed into rotation pieces as well.

Ya theres no way that the celtics are paying what it would take for that roster. Literally zero percent chance. Horford makes 27 million next year. Fournier will likely get more than the 17 he's making now. You're talking over 35 million into the tax. Forget adding Horford, its gonna be tough just to bring back Fournier without trading smart or Kemba.

Not too worried about Fournier. They offered Hayward $25M/year reportedly. After he walked that opened up the MLE to sign Thompson, but he's only on the books through next year. I doubt Fournier is getting more than the $17M he's making now, I see it more like $13-15M/year. But even if he does get the raise, NBA contracts are backloaded so it'd be less then what he's making now for next year most likely. Anyway you spin it really, if Hayward at $25M/year was something they were willing to do they absolutely have the payroll capacity to handle Fournier. And considering how Ainge has historically avoided rentals like the plague, talked about not wanting to use the TPE on one and then after the trade commenting on how they want it to be a multi-year thing, I'd guess they have every intention of re-signing Fournier.

The Horford add was extremely aggressive on my part. That I admit. Now I will say, I find it hard to believe that a team trying to compete, and most importantly, give no reason for Tatum/Brown to start thinking they need to go elsewhere to win, I imagine that even after keeping Fournier they would plan to use the tax payers MLE. That MLE combined with Thompson would be $15M. So I looked at the Horford trade as taking on an extra $12M in '21-22 vs how I think they'll end up if not. And considering how close they are to competing, how a passing big has done wonders for their offense, the long term incentive to keep the J's happy with team talent, and the ability to avoid luxury tax penalties based on the contract expiration dates of Kemba/Horford, I thought it was worth it.

[CelticsPride18]

Solid moves, especially upgrading from Pritchard to White. White is quicker, 3 inches taller, better defender and overall more poised/more sure of himself on offense.

The only thing White has on Pritchard is his size. Pritchard is a better shooter/scorer/passer/defender.

Wow, that's a homer comment. Look, I like Pritchard but being realistic he is clearly not as good as White. the increased mins he saw last night his defense was exposed. He's too small and too slow. They were abusing him on D, a few different times as soon as he switched onto a bigger guys they went right at him for easy buckets. White was 7th pick in the draft. Pritchard was 26th but was projected to go early-mid 2nd round.

They do the same to White and he’s an inefficient chucker on offense. White is awful on both ends.

[bucknersrevenge]

I'm feeling like keeping Kemba becomes a stronger option as each game goes by. He doesn't look hurt at all out there. The only real knock on him now is that he doesn't play back to backs- but he could. We are just choosing (wisely) not to play him to increase our chances in the playoffs.

Can we realistically duck the over tax line next season? Thats the question. Tatum will get a big pay hike. We don't know what we have with Fournier yet or how much keeping him will cost. If we could delay the repeater tax another year it might be worht trading Kemba. But once you go over you might as well really go over- as long as the players are good. There has been a lot of talk about losing guys for nothing. When you are under the cap, it doens't matter so much as you can just sign a new guy or make a trade that takes on salary. Once we are all in and over the tax line we are really limited in how we add players.

Maybe we just hold on to Kemba and 2 years from now, he is the expiring contract we attach Romeo or Nesmith too and bring back the final piece to the puzzle.

Ernest, I'm glad you brought this up. It's an interesting evolving debate. Here's the debate at the surface level, for me anyways. I've got 3 players to consider after this season: Kemba, Marcus, and FournHub. We won't be in the tax this year so next year we could go over. But as we all know, it starts to get REAL expensive, real fast once you wade into this territory. So...

Marcus: Could be an ideal starting primary ballhandler for this team. Best passer on the team. Best defender. Enables Brad to field completely switchable lineups. A leader on the floor and in the lockeroom. Someone that everyone respects. Maybe command close to 20M 2 years from now which is a considerable discount from Kemba. Ideally, doesn't need a ton of shots to function on this team which is ideal if Kemba or FournHub are taking more (which they should). But he's also the most tradeable of the 3. Almost any team would want him and you could get in return for him a player or players in a package that could fill in what remaining holes you might have. Plus, I don't think it takes a star primary ballhandler to run this offense. It can fit most guys as we've seen.

Kemba: Still an explosive guy who can carry you for quarters if not games anymore. Well-respected leader on this team. It's taken him all year but he finally looks more bouncy from game to game, and maybe even just as important, he's looking more and more like he's finally finding his fit with the Jays on the court. Remember earlier it looked so awkward with all of them on the court together? Doesn't look like that lately. He told everyone that HE needed to adjust to fit in with our 2 young stars, not the other way around and lately, it looks like he finally has. Starting to pass the ball well and be a playmaker for others now which is not something he has really done. I think as Fournier gets added to the mix, you'll see that blossom even further. He's converting at the rim now at like 70%. His jumper is still off though and inconsistent. Plus, it's gonna be hard to move him in the offseason. We'll need to add sweeteners to get him off this team.

FournHub: This is the wildcard. Right now he's a relative unknown. But if everyone was calling this acquisition "Hayward-lite", how likely is it that his skillset is NOT gonna translate here? We've already seen in a small sample size what he can do. His shooting blends with the Jay's so well here it's scary. He and Smart need less Usage than Kemba to impact the game around our 2 main guys. He spreads the floor. He moves without the ball. As a tertiary scorer, with HIS efficiency, what do you think would happen if you gave him Kemba's 15 shots in this system? But we didn't give up much for him. 2 2nd rounders are nothing. Could Danny afford the optics of how it would look to let him leave? He may want similar to what Smart will get. How about another sign n trade if he doesn't want to stay here. Can you really sign him and NOT prepare for him to be a starter next season next to the Jays? Would he even agree to that? Middle of the season is one thing but I imagine, Evan thinks himself a starter.

Sorry for the book but if this brings us back to your thought at the end, could we actually keep all 3? Would that even work? I kinda feel like one way or another, a choice will have to be made.

I think we can keep all 3. Guards and wings run the league these days.

What this season has shown us is you need depth. If we are able to finally get Walker/Fournier/Smart/Tatum/Brown all healthy together for an extended period of time, we could really be tough to stop. If Time Lord can get healthy and keep developing he'll be even better next season which is scary since this season he's top 10 in the NBA in PER, BPM, TS%, FG%, rebounding %, blocks %, offensive rating and defensive rating.

This was a weird season with COVID, an insane amount of injuries/illness, a highly condensed schedule of games. Next season if we keep this core together, they get more time to gel and stay healthy, we could be scary..

How do we make the money work though? And where does that leave us financially after we do it?

[La Flame]

Offseason deal...

BOS gets: F Al Faroq Aminu (taken into remainder of Hayward TPE), G Tomas Satoransky (his $5M partial guarantee taken into Theis TPE), G Colby White
CHI gets: G Payton Pritchard, G Aaron Nesmith

This deal creates the cap space CHI needs to go sign Lonzo Ball to an offer sheet NO won't match, who they reportedly covet. White hasn't blossomed there next to Lavine which is a reason they want Lonzo. Pritchard fits very well as a backup PG there and then Nesmith could develop as a bench shooter.

White fits the mold of what Stevens has liked as a fast, scoring PG. He can be the bench scorer for now, but he has the upside to develop into Kemba's eventual replacement, compared to a guy like Pritchard who really is just a backup IMO. It's an upside buy for sure.

Sato would have his $5M partial guarantee waived and stretched since we wouldn't have a need for him.

Now you wait 30 days so Aminu's expiring salary can be aggregated in another trade...

BOS gets: C Al Horford
OKC gets: C Tristan Thompson, F Al Faroq-Aminu, G Carsen Edwards

We all talk about Timelord's shot blocking, but I think it's the OFFENSE that has taken off with him starting. His ability as a passer has opened things up a ton. Tatum/Brown are still learning how to be better playmakers for others. Smart's lack of finishing ability inside makes it tougher for him to break the defense down off the dribble because they don't over-help on him in the paint. The ability to put those eventual ball handlers in off ball movement before they actually get the ball has been a "head start" or "cheat code" to helping them break defenses down off the dribble once they do get it. That's made possible by Timelord's ability as a passer to start plays.

We all know Horford brings that same skill set. And at this stage of his career, we can basically upgrade from Thompson to him for free. It's all about financial savings for OKC.

Also you compliment these moves by re-signing Fournier to a 3 year deal. Sets you up for a rotation of:

Kemba / White
Smart / Langford
Brown / Fournier
Tatum / Parker or Grant
Timelord / Horford (or start Horford, idk)

We also have our 1st rounder and the MLE and vet min signings.

For '21-22 this is definitely an expensive roster. No doubt. And then in '22-23 it's incredibly expensive if you assume Smart and Rob will be re-signed and you decide to pay Horford $26M to play vs $14.5M to walk.

However, that next year Kemba and Horford expire so you go back below the tax again. Fournier will be an expiring deal that makes him a possible trade chip. Hopefully guys like White, Langford, and our next couple of 1st rounders have developed into rotation pieces as well.

Ya theres no way that the celtics are paying what it would take for that roster. Literally zero percent chance. Horford makes 27 million next year. Fournier will likely get more than the 17 he's making now. You're talking over 35 million into the tax. Forget adding Horford, its gonna be tough just to bring back Fournier without trading smart or Kemba.

Not too worried about Fournier. They offered Hayward $25M/year reportedly. After he walked that opened up the MLE to sign Thompson, but he's only on the books through next year. I doubt Fournier is getting more than the $17M he's making now, I see it more like $13-15M/year. But even if he does get the raise, NBA contracts are backloaded so it'd be less then what he's making now for next year most likely. Anyway you spin it really, if Hayward at $25M/year was something they were willing to do they absolutely have the payroll capacity to handle Fournier. And considering how Ainge has historically avoided rentals like the plague, talked about not wanting to use the TPE on one and then after the trade commenting on how they want it to be a multi-year thing, I'd guess they have every intention of re-signing Fournier.

The Horford add was extremely aggressive on my part. That I admit. Now I will say, I find it hard to believe that a team trying to compete, and most importantly, give no reason for Tatum/Brown to start thinking they need to go elsewhere to win, I imagine that even after keeping Fournier they would plan to use the tax payers MLE. That MLE combined with Thompson would be $15M. So I looked at the Horford trade as taking on an extra $12M in '21-22 vs how I think they'll end up if not. And considering how close they are to competing, how a passing big has done wonders for their offense, the long term incentive to keep the J's happy with team talent, and the ability to avoid luxury tax penalties based on the contract expiration dates of Kemba/Horford, I thought it was worth it.

Fournier will definitely get more than 15 a year

[bucknersrevenge]

Offseason deal...

BOS gets: F Al Faroq Aminu (taken into remainder of Hayward TPE), G Tomas Satoransky (his $5M partial guarantee taken into Theis TPE), G Colby White
CHI gets: G Payton Pritchard, G Aaron Nesmith

This deal creates the cap space CHI needs to go sign Lonzo Ball to an offer sheet NO won't match, who they reportedly covet. White hasn't blossomed there next to Lavine which is a reason they want Lonzo. Pritchard fits very well as a backup PG there and then Nesmith could develop as a bench shooter.

White fits the mold of what Stevens has liked as a fast, scoring PG. He can be the bench scorer for now, but he has the upside to develop into Kemba's eventual replacement, compared to a guy like Pritchard who really is just a backup IMO. It's an upside buy for sure.

Sato would have his $5M partial guarantee waived and stretched since we wouldn't have a need for him.

Now you wait 30 days so Aminu's expiring salary can be aggregated in another trade...

BOS gets: C Al Horford
OKC gets: C Tristan Thompson, F Al Faroq-Aminu, G Carsen Edwards

We all talk about Timelord's shot blocking, but I think it's the OFFENSE that has taken off with him starting. His ability as a passer has opened things up a ton. Tatum/Brown are still learning how to be better playmakers for others. Smart's lack of finishing ability inside makes it tougher for him to break the defense down off the dribble because they don't over-help on him in the paint. The ability to put those eventual ball handlers in off ball movement before they actually get the ball has been a "head start" or "cheat code" to helping them break defenses down off the dribble once they do get it. That's made possible by Timelord's ability as a passer to start plays.

We all know Horford brings that same skill set. And at this stage of his career, we can basically upgrade from Thompson to him for free. It's all about financial savings for OKC.

Also you compliment these moves by re-signing Fournier to a 3 year deal. Sets you up for a rotation of:

Kemba / White
Smart / Langford
Brown / Fournier
Tatum / Parker or Grant
Timelord / Horford (or start Horford, idk)

We also have our 1st rounder and the MLE and vet min signings.

For '21-22 this is definitely an expensive roster. No doubt. And then in '22-23 it's incredibly expensive if you assume Smart and Rob will be re-signed and you decide to pay Horford $26M to play vs $14.5M to walk.

However, that next year Kemba and Horford expire so you go back below the tax again. Fournier will be an expiring deal that makes him a possible trade chip. Hopefully guys like White, Langford, and our next couple of 1st rounders have developed into rotation pieces as well.

Ya theres no way that the celtics are paying what it would take for that roster. Literally zero percent chance. Horford makes 27 million next year. Fournier will likely get more than the 17 he's making now. You're talking over 35 million into the tax. Forget adding Horford, its gonna be tough just to bring back Fournier without trading smart or Kemba.

Not too worried about Fournier. They offered Hayward $25M/year reportedly. After he walked that opened up the MLE to sign Thompson, but he's only on the books through next year. I doubt Fournier is getting more than the $17M he's making now, I see it more like $13-15M/year. But even if he does get the raise, NBA contracts are backloaded so it'd be less then what he's making now for next year most likely. Anyway you spin it really, if Hayward at $25M/year was something they were willing to do they absolutely have the payroll capacity to handle Fournier. And considering how Ainge has historically avoided rentals like the plague, talked about not wanting to use the TPE on one and then after the trade commenting on how they want it to be a multi-year thing, I'd guess they have every intention of re-signing Fournier.

The Horford add was extremely aggressive on my part. That I admit. Now I will say, I find it hard to believe that a team trying to compete, and most importantly, give no reason for Tatum/Brown to start thinking they need to go elsewhere to win, I imagine that even after keeping Fournier they would plan to use the tax payers MLE. That MLE combined with Thompson would be $15M. So I looked at the Horford trade as taking on an extra $12M in '21-22 vs how I think they'll end up if not. And considering how close they are to competing, how a passing big has done wonders for their offense, the long term incentive to keep the J's happy with team talent, and the ability to avoid luxury tax penalties based on the contract expiration dates of Kemba/Horford, I thought it was worth it.

I got it. So Fournier, a veteran, reliable 18 ppg shooter/scoring wing, in a league that LOVES those types, as a free agent, will not get more than the 17M he's making now. The deal he signed to get to this point was 5/85M. Meaning, he made 17M EVERY year of that deal. So a shooter who's shooting close to 40% from 3 his last 2 years is going to take a 2-4M a year PAYCUT to stay here in Boston as he hits free agency? LOL I thought we only had one comedian on this forum! Wait til he hears this one.

[Hal14]

Ya theres no way that the celtics are paying what it would take for that roster. Literally zero percent chance. Horford makes 27 million next year. Fournier will likely get more than the 17 he's making now. You're talking over 35 million into the tax. Forget adding Horford, its gonna be tough just to bring back Fournier without trading smart or Kemba.

Not too worried about Fournier. They offered Hayward $25M/year reportedly. After he walked that opened up the MLE to sign Thompson, but he's only on the books through next year. I doubt Fournier is getting more than the $17M he's making now, I see it more like $13-15M/year. But even if he does get the raise, NBA contracts are backloaded so it'd be less then what he's making now for next year most likely. Anyway you spin it really, if Hayward at $25M/year was something they were willing to do they absolutely have the payroll capacity to handle Fournier. And considering how Ainge has historically avoided rentals like the plague, talked about not wanting to use the TPE on one and then after the trade commenting on how they want it to be a multi-year thing, I'd guess they have every intention of re-signing Fournier.

The Horford add was extremely aggressive on my part. That I admit. Now I will say, I find it hard to believe that a team trying to compete, and most importantly, give no reason for Tatum/Brown to start thinking they need to go elsewhere to win, I imagine that even after keeping Fournier they would plan to use the tax payers MLE. That MLE combined with Thompson would be $15M. So I looked at the Horford trade as taking on an extra $12M in '21-22 vs how I think they'll end up if not. And considering how close they are to competing, how a passing big has done wonders for their offense, the long term incentive to keep the J's happy with team talent, and the ability to avoid luxury tax penalties based on the contract expiration dates of Kemba/Horford, I thought it was worth it.

Fournier will definitely get more than 15 a year

Yeah. He's making $17 mil now and these past 2 years have been the best 2 years of his career. That should result in a $2-3 mil raise. With that being said, he'll be 29 when next season begins so you typically wouldn't see a guy's contract increase THAT much when he's 29, unless he is really tearing the league up..and while Fournier has been good these past 2 years, he's an average at best defender, decent passer, not a very good rebounder and has gone from a 19 PPG scorer on a bad team to an 11 PPG scorer on a good team (obviously small sample size of just 4 games on Celtics, so it'll be key for him to play well when he returns in order to get a bigger contract this offseason). All things considered, I figure $17-$18 mil is appropriate for him but at the same time there might be a team out there who really likes him, thinks he'd be a 1 or 2 option for them and is desperate to make a splash and that team might offer him $20+ mil. Sometimes teams give guys bigger contracts than they are worth (Wall, Westbrook, Kemba, Horford, Barnes, Hayward, etc.)

[bucknersrevenge]

At 28, this is probably Evan's last big payday that he's gonna get. He's gonna be looking for at least 4 years to maximize that payday. And at 28-29, in the middle of his prime, shooting like his ages WELL in this league. If I was his agent, it would be tough to consider anything lower than 4/84. Do the 12.5% raises or whatever you need to make it work. But I don't see how you argue he deserves less than that in today's NBA, in his prime for what he can do. He's a #3 scorer on a good team. #3 scorers get paid too. And teams wil have money to spend.

[Hal14]

I really like Rob Williams but he is always hurt. Gotta upgrade starting center.

Also it is an absolute must to do something about Grant Williams playing 20 minutes per game. I have been hoping but have not seen yet Parker playing more than Grant even though over the last 2 games there has been zero reason for that to happen. For all his faults Parker is vastly superior a player than Grant.

When Fournier is back I am not as concerned with having to play Romeo out there as Romeo shouldn't ever have to shoot the ball.

And Kemba gotta go for a defensive playmaker at PG (Still hoping for Ball)
But assuming Kemba is stuck here until his contract is up.

Kemba/Pritchard/?????
Smart/Fournier/?????
Brown/Romeo or Nesmith
Tatum/Parker/?????
???/Thompson/Kornet

Would love Ball and Wood to be the starting PG and Center next season.

lol, wow giving up on Time Lord already? You do realize that he's top 10 in the entire NBA in FG%, TS%, PER, BPM, offensive rating, defensive rating, blocks % and rebounding %, right? And he's only 23, not to mention one of the better passing bigs in the league.

Some of the games he's missed this season were to COVID, not injury. Celtics have played 58 games. Time Lord has played in 47. Out of the 11 games he's missed, 4 of them were due to COVID and 1 was due to a non COVID related illness. So that means out of 58 games he has only missed 6 to injury.

I dont want to, but it might have to be planned on.

He was on a "Minutes restriction" for almost the entire season.

Since the trade deadline his minutes have gone up from 17 per game to 25 per game.

[Hal14]

At 28, this is probably Evan's last big payday that he's gonna get. He's gonna be looking for at least 4 years to maximize that payday. And at 28-29, in the middle of his prime, shooting like his ages WELL in this league. If I was his agent, it would be tough to consider anything lower than 4/84. Do the 12.5% raises or whatever you need to make it work. But I don't see how you argue he deserves less than that in today's NBA, in his prime for what he can do. He's a #3 scorer on a good team. #3 scorers get paid too. And teams wil have money to spend.

Agreed for the most part.

But he went from 19 PPG scorer on a bad team to 11 PPG scorer on a good team when he came to Boston. Yes, that's only a 4 game sample size, but still....

This is why it's key for him to come back and produce. Because 11 PPG is NOT a no. 3 scorer on a good team. It's a no. 5 scorer on a good team which would make like $10-$12 mil, tops. Especially considering he doesn't do much else well, average at best defender, not a good rebounder, average at best passer..

Kemba is the no. 3 scorer on this team. Kemba is averaging 17.8 PPG which falls right in line with what you see from other "good no. 3 scorers on good teams" across the league. So if Fournier wants to get paid like a no. 3 scorer he should be able to put up at least 17.8 PPG in a celtics uniform and do it with at least a 15 game sample size.

[keevsnick1]

Offseason deal...

BOS gets: F Al Faroq Aminu (taken into remainder of Hayward TPE), G Tomas Satoransky (his $5M partial guarantee taken into Theis TPE), G Colby White
CHI gets: G Payton Pritchard, G Aaron Nesmith

This deal creates the cap space CHI needs to go sign Lonzo Ball to an offer sheet NO won't match, who they reportedly covet. White hasn't blossomed there next to Lavine which is a reason they want Lonzo. Pritchard fits very well as a backup PG there and then Nesmith could develop as a bench shooter.

White fits the mold of what Stevens has liked as a fast, scoring PG. He can be the bench scorer for now, but he has the upside to develop into Kemba's eventual replacement, compared to a guy like Pritchard who really is just a backup IMO. It's an upside buy for sure.

Sato would have his $5M partial guarantee waived and stretched since we wouldn't have a need for him.

Now you wait 30 days so Aminu's expiring salary can be aggregated in another trade...

BOS gets: C Al Horford
OKC gets: C Tristan Thompson, F Al Faroq-Aminu, G Carsen Edwards

We all talk about Timelord's shot blocking, but I think it's the OFFENSE that has taken off with him starting. His ability as a passer has opened things up a ton. Tatum/Brown are still learning how to be better playmakers for others. Smart's lack of finishing ability inside makes it tougher for him to break the defense down off the dribble because they don't over-help on him in the paint. The ability to put those eventual ball handlers in off ball movement before they actually get the ball has been a "head start" or "cheat code" to helping them break defenses down off the dribble once they do get it. That's made possible by Timelord's ability as a passer to start plays.

We all know Horford brings that same skill set. And at this stage of his career, we can basically upgrade from Thompson to him for free. It's all about financial savings for OKC.

Also you compliment these moves by re-signing Fournier to a 3 year deal. Sets you up for a rotation of:

Kemba / White
Smart / Langford
Brown / Fournier
Tatum / Parker or Grant
Timelord / Horford (or start Horford, idk)

We also have our 1st rounder and the MLE and vet min signings.

For '21-22 this is definitely an expensive roster. No doubt. And then in '22-23 it's incredibly expensive if you assume Smart and Rob will be re-signed and you decide to pay Horford $26M to play vs $14.5M to walk.

However, that next year Kemba and Horford expire so you go back below the tax again. Fournier will be an expiring deal that makes him a possible trade chip. Hopefully guys like White, Langford, and our next couple of 1st rounders have developed into rotation pieces as well.

Ya theres no way that the celtics are paying what it would take for that roster. Literally zero percent chance. Horford makes 27 million next year. Fournier will likely get more than the 17 he's making now. You're talking over 35 million into the tax. Forget adding Horford, its gonna be tough just to bring back Fournier without trading smart or Kemba.

Not too worried about Fournier. They offered Hayward $25M/year reportedly. After he walked that opened up the MLE to sign Thompson, but he's only on the books through next year. I doubt Fournier is getting more than the $17M he's making now, I see it more like $13-15M/year. But even if he does get the raise, NBA contracts are backloaded so it'd be less then what he's making now for next year most likely. Anyway you spin it really, if Hayward at $25M/year was something they were willing to do they absolutely have the payroll capacity to handle Fournier. And considering how Ainge has historically avoided rentals like the plague, talked about not wanting to use the TPE on one and then after the trade commenting on how they want it to be a multi-year thing, I'd guess they have every intention of re-signing Fournier.

The Horford add was extremely aggressive on my part. That I admit. Now I will say, I find it hard to believe that a team trying to compete, and most importantly, give no reason for Tatum/Brown to start thinking they need to go elsewhere to win, I imagine that even after keeping Fournier they would plan to use the tax payers MLE. That MLE combined with Thompson would be $15M. So I looked at the Horford trade as taking on an extra $12M in '21-22 vs how I think they'll end up if not. And considering how close they are to competing, how a passing big has done wonders for their offense, the long term incentive to keep the J's happy with team talent, and the ability to avoid luxury tax penalties based on the contract expiration dates of Kemba/Horford, I thought it was worth it.

Ya I think you're dreaming here.

On Fournier. We do this every year, convince ourself that Hayward/Horford/Fournier won't have that big a market then inevitably they get paid more than anybody expected because the entire nba salary system is basically designed to overpay that level of player. He's not getting less then he's making now. A RFA with far less of a track record in Bogdan got 4/72 last year.

Also if they did resign fournier I doubt the use the taxpayer MLE, again you have to look at it total amount into the tax. They aren't adding 5 million more onto a 20+ million tax bill. They've literally never gone that far.

You can say "well its only 12 million over the level with fournier, thompson, mle" but bottom line is all three of those things are unlikely to be on the roster next year. Again it's just too expensive. Its 25 million into the tax. This team has never gone more than 15 million in. They arent doing those three things PLUS another 12 million, which after accounting for tax would be closer to 40 million in actual money at the tax rates we'd be talking about.

Again, i' d love to he wrong. I just think if everybody here try's projecting next years roster using projections at 35 million into the tax we are gonna end up disappointed.

Also people need to STOP bringing up Hayward. They couldd have easily paid him 25 million, dodged the tax this year, then figured it out going forward by dumping smart or kemba. Hayward is not proof they are willing to take on a massive tax bill going forward.

[bucknersrevenge]

At 28, this is probably Evan's last big payday that he's gonna get. He's gonna be looking for at least 4 years to maximize that payday. And at 28-29, in the middle of his prime, shooting like his ages WELL in this league. If I was his agent, it would be tough to consider anything lower than 4/84. Do the 12.5% raises or whatever you need to make it work. But I don't see how you argue he deserves less than that in today's NBA, in his prime for what he can do. He's a #3 scorer on a good team. #3 scorers get paid too. And teams wil have money to spend.

Agreed for the most part.

But he went from 19 PPG scorer on a bad team to 11 PPG scorer on a good team when he came to Boston. Yes, that's only a 4 game sample size, but still....

This is why it's key for him to come back and produce. Because 11 PPG is NOT a no. 3 scorer on a good team. It's a no. 5 scorer on a good team which would make like $10-$12 mil, tops. Especially considering he doesn't do much else well, average at best defender, not a good rebounder, average at best passer..

Kemba is the no. 3 scorer on this team. Kemba is averaging 17.8 PPG which falls right in line with what you see from other "good no. 3 scorers on good teams" across the league. So if Fournier wants to get paid like a no. 3 scorer he should be able to put up at least 17.8 PPG in a celtics uniform and do it with at least a 15 game sample size.

Well he's also coming off the bench too. So keep that in mind as well. And I think he sees himself as a starter and someone who will be a considerable part of the offense moving forward. Whatever his role is this year off the bench is not what he will do next year, not if he's gonna stay with this team. He's got no incentive. So that means, in order for him to stay, probably one of the other 2 have to go. This is a lot of assumption here, sure. But Fournier is holding all the leverage. I'm certain another playoff team will step up to grab him f we don't keep him and Danny knows it.

As for his production, if he averages 13-14ppg in limited shot attempts it's gonna be about the spacing his shooting provides as much as his ACTUAL stat production. That's the thing. And I expect his agent knows that. And don't forget, he's still learning this team and now coming off Covid. I mean, your barometer is your barometer and that's fine. I get it. I'm gonna take a little more context into this situation myself.

[JediMasterRevan]

lol, wow giving up on Time Lord already? You do realize that he's top 10 in the entire NBA in FG%, TS%, PER, BPM, offensive rating, defensive rating, blocks % and rebounding %, right? And he's only 23, not to mention one of the better passing bigs in the league.

Some of the games he's missed this season were to COVID, not injury. Celtics have played 58 games. Time Lord has played in 47. Out of the 11 games he's missed, 4 of them were due to COVID and 1 was due to a non COVID related illness. So that means out of 58 games he has only missed 6 to injury.

I dont want to, but it might have to be planned on.

He was on a "Minutes restriction" for almost the entire season.

Since the trade deadline his minutes have gone up from 17 per game to 25 per game.

And he is back on the injury list again.

[hugepatsfan]

Ya theres no way that the celtics are paying what it would take for that roster. Literally zero percent chance. Horford makes 27 million next year. Fournier will likely get more than the 17 he's making now. You're talking over 35 million into the tax. Forget adding Horford, its gonna be tough just to bring back Fournier without trading smart or Kemba.

Not too worried about Fournier. They offered Hayward $25M/year reportedly. After he walked that opened up the MLE to sign Thompson, but he's only on the books through next year. I doubt Fournier is getting more than the $17M he's making now, I see it more like $13-15M/year. But even if he does get the raise, NBA contracts are backloaded so it'd be less then what he's making now for next year most likely. Anyway you spin it really, if Hayward at $25M/year was something they were willing to do they absolutely have the payroll capacity to handle Fournier. And considering how Ainge has historically avoided rentals like the plague, talked about not wanting to use the TPE on one and then after the trade commenting on how they want it to be a multi-year thing, I'd guess they have every intention of re-signing Fournier.

The Horford add was extremely aggressive on my part. That I admit. Now I will say, I find it hard to believe that a team trying to compete, and most importantly, give no reason for Tatum/Brown to start thinking they need to go elsewhere to win, I imagine that even after keeping Fournier they would plan to use the tax payers MLE. That MLE combined with Thompson would be $15M. So I looked at the Horford trade as taking on an extra $12M in '21-22 vs how I think they'll end up if not. And considering how close they are to competing, how a passing big has done wonders for their offense, the long term incentive to keep the J's happy with team talent, and the ability to avoid luxury tax penalties based on the contract expiration dates of Kemba/Horford, I thought it was worth it.

I got it. So Fournier, a veteran, reliable 18 ppg shooter/scoring wing, in a league that LOVES those types, as a free agent, will not get more than the 17M he's making now. The deal he signed to get to this point was 5/85M. Meaning, he made 17M EVERY year of that deal. So a shooter who's shooting close to 40% from 3 his last 2 years is going to take a 2-4M a year PAYCUT to stay here in Boston as he hits free agency? LOL I thought we only had one comedian on this forum! Wait til he hears this one.

Joe Harris got $17M/year and I think he's a better shooter, which is the primary skill set Fournier will be paid for. And he signed going into age 29 season just like Fournier will. So I think a little off that for Fournier seems reasonable. But we shall see... I could see teams like DAL, MEM, or SA offering money to Fournier for sure. I think SA would rather just re-sign DeRozen though. DAL I see trying to keep flexibility for bigger moves. MEM is the biggest threat to pay him, IMO. TOR could get involved if they let Lowry go but opt for a quick rebuild, though they do have Gary Trent Jr to re-sign now.

Just in general, I look at he FA market, and I think guys like Gary Trent Jr and Normal Powell will be ranked higher because I see more upside. For teams looking for a vet scorer, provided they have the shooting around them, I think DeRozen will rank higher. Oubre is out there as well who is also younger. Josh Richardson maybe doesn't bring the scoring but is probably a better all around player. Only so many teams have cap space, and depending on the stage of team development they are in or the specific skill set they're looking for, I see many attractive alternatives to Fournier at $17-20M/year into his 30s. But again, we shall see.

[Hal14]

I dont want to, but it might have to be planned on.

He was on a "Minutes restriction" for almost the entire season.

Since the trade deadline his minutes have gone up from 17 per game to 25 per game.

And he is back on the injury list again.

1) Yes, he's missed just 3 games. 3 is not a lot. He's expected back on Thursday.
2) Prior to these 3 games, he hadn't missed a single game to injury in over 2 months
3) Even with these 3 games, he has still only missed 6 games to injury this season, out of the team's 58 total games.

[Hal14]

At 28, this is probably Evan's last big payday that he's gonna get. He's gonna be looking for at least 4 years to maximize that payday. And at 28-29, in the middle of his prime, shooting like his ages WELL in this league. If I was his agent, it would be tough to consider anything lower than 4/84. Do the 12.5% raises or whatever you need to make it work. But I don't see how you argue he deserves less than that in today's NBA, in his prime for what he can do. He's a #3 scorer on a good team. #3 scorers get paid too. And teams wil have money to spend.

Agreed for the most part.

But he went from 19 PPG scorer on a bad team to 11 PPG scorer on a good team when he came to Boston. Yes, that's only a 4 game sample size, but still....

This is why it's key for him to come back and produce. Because 11 PPG is NOT a no. 3 scorer on a good team. It's a no. 5 scorer on a good team which would make like $10-$12 mil, tops. Especially considering he doesn't do much else well, average at best defender, not a good rebounder, average at best passer..

Kemba is the no. 3 scorer on this team. Kemba is averaging 17.8 PPG which falls right in line with what you see from other "good no. 3 scorers on good teams" across the league. So if Fournier wants to get paid like a no. 3 scorer he should be able to put up at least 17.8 PPG in a celtics uniform and do it with at least a 15 game sample size.

Well he's also coming off the bench too. So keep that in mind as well. And I think he sees himself as a starter and someone who will be a considerable part of the offense moving forward. Whatever his role is this year off the bench is not what he will do next year, not if he's gonna stay with this team. He's got no incentive. So that means, in order for him to stay, probably one of the other 2 have to go. This is a lot of assumption here, sure. But Fournier is holding all the leverage. I'm certain another playoff team will step up to grab him f we don't keep him and Danny knows it.

As for his production, if he averages 13-14ppg in limited shot attempts it's gonna be about the spacing his shooting provides as much as his ACTUAL stat production. That's the thing. And I expect his agent knows that. And don't forget, he's still learning this team and now coming off Covid. I mean, your barometer is your barometer and that's fine. I get it. I'm gonna take a little more context into this situation myself.

He's playing 29 mins a game for Boston. He was playing 30 for Orlando. So basically same amount of mins..

[bucknersrevenge]

Not too worried about Fournier. They offered Hayward $25M/year reportedly. After he walked that opened up the MLE to sign Thompson, but he's only on the books through next year. I doubt Fournier is getting more than the $17M he's making now, I see it more like $13-15M/year. But even if he does get the raise, NBA contracts are backloaded so it'd be less then what he's making now for next year most likely. Anyway you spin it really, if Hayward at $25M/year was something they were willing to do they absolutely have the payroll capacity to handle Fournier. And considering how Ainge has historically avoided rentals like the plague, talked about not wanting to use the TPE on one and then after the trade commenting on how they want it to be a multi-year thing, I'd guess they have every intention of re-signing Fournier.

The Horford add was extremely aggressive on my part. That I admit. Now I will say, I find it hard to believe that a team trying to compete, and most importantly, give no reason for Tatum/Brown to start thinking they need to go elsewhere to win, I imagine that even after keeping Fournier they would plan to use the tax payers MLE. That MLE combined with Thompson would be $15M. So I looked at the Horford trade as taking on an extra $12M in '21-22 vs how I think they'll end up if not. And considering how close they are to competing, how a passing big has done wonders for their offense, the long term incentive to keep the J's happy with team talent, and the ability to avoid luxury tax penalties based on the contract expiration dates of Kemba/Horford, I thought it was worth it.

I got it. So Fournier, a veteran, reliable 18 ppg shooter/scoring wing, in a league that LOVES those types, as a free agent, will not get more than the 17M he's making now. The deal he signed to get to this point was 5/85M. Meaning, he made 17M EVERY year of that deal. So a shooter who's shooting close to 40% from 3 his last 2 years is going to take a 2-4M a year PAYCUT to stay here in Boston as he hits free agency? LOL I thought we only had one comedian on this forum! Wait til he hears this one.

Joe Harris got $17M/year and I think he's a better shooter, which is the primary skill set Fournier will be paid for. And he signed going into age 29 season just like Fournier will. So I think a little off that for Fournier seems reasonable. But we shall see... I could see teams like DAL, MEM, or SA offering money to Fournier for sure. I think SA would rather just re-sign DeRozen though. DAL I see trying to keep flexibility for bigger moves. MEM is the biggest threat to pay him, IMO. TOR could get involved if they let Lowry go but opt for a quick rebuild, though they do have Gary Trent Jr to re-sign now.

Just in general, I look at he FA market, and I think guys like Gary Trent Jr and Normal Powell will be ranked higher because I see more upside. For teams looking for a vet scorer, provided they have the shooting around them, I think DeRozen will rank higher. Oubre is out there as well who is also younger. Josh Richardson maybe doesn't bring the scoring but is probably a better all around player. Only so many teams have cap space, and depending on the stage of team development they are in or the specific skill set they're looking for, I see many attractive alternatives to Fournier at $17-20M/year into his 30s. But again, we shall see.

Well crafted response here. Toronto would be interesting. Don't they get Trent's Bird rights though? Or are those not attached anymore. He would make an interesting fit there. As for Harris, I see him as more of a specialist than Fournier. Harris seems more Duncan Robinson. While Fournier seems more Hayward/Caris Levert-esque maybe. Sure the shooting will be the most important skillset, But I suspect what Brad has in mind for him assuming he comes back next season is more secondary playmaking, especially with 2nd units. That's why I tend to think he's going to be worth more. And FWIW, here's my "bold prediction of the day". Our current starting backcourt will be on different teams next year. Nothing to base that on but a hunch based on the math.

[BK_2020]

GTJ is a RFA.
Joe Harris is not a specialist 3 point shooter, he's of the best finishers in the NBA and an elite 3rd/4th scorer, period.

[hugepatsfan]

Ya theres no way that the celtics are paying what it would take for that roster. Literally zero percent chance. Horford makes 27 million next year. Fournier will likely get more than the 17 he's making now. You're talking over 35 million into the tax. Forget adding Horford, its gonna be tough just to bring back Fournier without trading smart or Kemba.

Not too worried about Fournier. They offered Hayward $25M/year reportedly. After he walked that opened up the MLE to sign Thompson, but he's only on the books through next year. I doubt Fournier is getting more than the $17M he's making now, I see it more like $13-15M/year. But even if he does get the raise, NBA contracts are backloaded so it'd be less then what he's making now for next year most likely. Anyway you spin it really, if Hayward at $25M/year was something they were willing to do they absolutely have the payroll capacity to handle Fournier. And considering how Ainge has historically avoided rentals like the plague, talked about not wanting to use the TPE on one and then after the trade commenting on how they want it to be a multi-year thing, I'd guess they have every intention of re-signing Fournier.

The Horford add was extremely aggressive on my part. That I admit. Now I will say, I find it hard to believe that a team trying to compete, and most importantly, give no reason for Tatum/Brown to start thinking they need to go elsewhere to win, I imagine that even after keeping Fournier they would plan to use the tax payers MLE. That MLE combined with Thompson would be $15M. So I looked at the Horford trade as taking on an extra $12M in '21-22 vs how I think they'll end up if not. And considering how close they are to competing, how a passing big has done wonders for their offense, the long term incentive to keep the J's happy with team talent, and the ability to avoid luxury tax penalties based on the contract expiration dates of Kemba/Horford, I thought it was worth it.

Ya I think you're dreaming here.

On Fournier. We do this every year, convince ourself that Hayward/Horford/Fournier won't have that big a market then inevitably they get paid more than anybody expected because the entire nba salary system is basically designed to overpay that level of player. He's not getting less then he's making now. A RFA with far less of a track record in Bogdan got 4/72 last year.

Also if they did resign fournier I doubt the use the taxpayer MLE, again you have to look at it total amount into the tax. They aren't adding 5 million more onto a 20+ million tax bill. They've literally never gone that far.

You can say "well its only 12 million over the level with fournier, thompson, mle" but bottom line is all three of those things are unlikely to be on the roster next year. Again it's just too expensive. Its 25 million into the tax. This team has never gone more than 15 million in. They arent doing those three things PLUS another 12 million, which after accounting for tax would be closer to 40 million in actual money at the tax rates we'd be talking about.

Again, i' d love to he wrong. I just think if everybody here try's projecting next years roster using projections at 35 million into the tax we are gonna end up disappointed.

Also people need to STOP bringing up Hayward. They couldd have easily paid him 25 million, dodged the tax this year, then figured it out going forward by dumping smart or kemba. Hayward is not proof they are willing to take on a massive tax bill going forward.

See my last post on rationale for what I think Fournier will get. A guy like Bogdan, ATL was paying for untapped potential. In past experience, those are the profiles of players that get overpaid. I think guys like Fournier who will spend the bulk of their next contract in their 30s are more likely to be squeezed. Lots of guys with his same profile this year (DeRozen, Josh Richardson, Gary Trent Jr, Norman Powell, Kelly Oubre) so depending on who re-signs and where teams want to spend I can see Fournier getting squeezed some. But we shall see. I see his range as about what he got this year, give or take. I lean towards a little less considering who has cap space and where I think he'll rank on their lists.