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All Things 2017 Draft

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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1821 » by pasfru » Wed May 3, 2017 8:12 pm

Edug27 wrote:
Fruit Pastilles wrote:
Edug27 wrote:
Gifted is one thing. But you're putting Ball on the same level as the best passers and floor generals of the last decade? Hmm... Yea. Not debatable at all. Guess Fultz's scoring ability is on the level of prime D.Wade.

Considering writers all across the country are writing about how special a passer he is, considering his AST:TO ratio is otherworldly good in comparison to other point gods like CP3, Stockton, Kidd and Nash at the same age, considering he was doing all that while playing more of an off-ball role at UCLA last year, considering his scoring and passing efficiency at 19 blows all those former greats out of the water, it's really not that far-fetched.

The thing I hate the most about "internet scouting" is the abundance of people who are afraid to make any kind of reach. Everyone's too safe with their takes, as if they're trying to take care of some non-existent reputation.

There's nothing wrong with a little hyperbole. Especially when the facts back it up quite nicely.

I don't know if he'll ever reach that level, but I think he's certainly on-track. I don't know how some of you can watch him play and see anything but star really.


Oh brother. There's a ton of reaches per day on this board. So the "fear" to make a reach is definitely not the problem. You can be a good passer and still not be on the level of Kidd, Nash and CP. That's the real problem here. You're either Nick Young or Magic Johnson as a passer. There's no in-between. But whatever. We can revisit this one day.

Read that first and last paragraph again, then come back to me.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1822 » by SmartWentCrazy » Wed May 3, 2017 8:22 pm

ryaningf wrote:When evaluating a young player (who is likely on a growth curve of some sort), breaking up the season into chunks to ascertain the rate of growth is a good way to judge if they're improving and if so how fast. Weighting the entire season only makes sense 7-10 years down the road when you're looking at longer trends.


The problem with a 21 (post all star) game sample is that it's very tiny and immensely subjective to noise. It's impossible to ascertain how much is skill development and how much is a hot streak that is not indicative to where a player actually is.

You're confusing the two terms (and do so in this very post) to make a poor argument so a clarification was in order. Strength is something you can actually rate based on specific basketball situations, whereas weight is a # that comes from a scale that we likely will never have access to. But sure keep telling me about all the player weights you found in your google search.


No, I'm using weight as a proxy for strength as we have no idea what his weight room numbers and weight gets updated every year. You can realistically approximate how strong an individual with very low body fat is by their weight.

Brandon Ingram isn't just slightly weak, which 10-15 lbs implies. He's significantly devoid of strength.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1823 » by Slartibartfast » Wed May 3, 2017 8:38 pm

Banks2Pierce wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:I know it's hard to think about 2nd round/undrafted types with our top 4 pick and the overload of lower-level prospects already on the squad but I really like Chris Boucher. I think he's going to be a useful pro.


Tore his ACL late in the season so I'm out. Liked him. Fan of Swanigan in that range. Nostalgic for the training camp weight analysis.

Didn't know about the ACL.

As a D-League stash a la Nader though...
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1824 » by rochrist » Wed May 3, 2017 8:38 pm

Fruit Pastilles wrote:
rochrist wrote:
Fruit Pastilles wrote:Considering writers all across the country are writing about how special a passer he is, considering his AST:TO ratio is otherworldly good in comparison to other point gods like CP3, Stockton, Kidd and Nash at the same age, considering he was doing all that while playing more of an off-ball role at UCLA last year, considering his scoring and passing efficiency at 19 blows all those former greats out of the water, it's really not that far-fetched.

The thing I hate the most about "internet scouting" is the abundance of people who are afraid to make any kind of reach. Everyone's too safe with their takes, as if they're trying to take care of some non-existent reputation.

There's nothing wrong with a little hyperbole. Especially when the facts back it up quite nicely.

I don't know if he'll ever reach that level, but I think he's certainly on-track. I don't know how some of you can watch him play and see anything but star really.


I see a guy who will struggle to get his shot off against men, and how lacks the quickness to penetrate.

I see a guy who should've struggled with his shot in college and did the complete opposite. I see a guy who'll adapt to whatever scheme or setup he's thrown into. Great players do that.

Lonzo may not be John Wall/Russell Westbrook level explosive, but he's still quick. The guy's a blur in the open court.


Fast. Not quick.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1825 » by pasfru » Wed May 3, 2017 8:52 pm

rochrist wrote:
Fruit Pastilles wrote:
rochrist wrote:
I see a guy who will struggle to get his shot off against men, and how lacks the quickness to penetrate.

I see a guy who should've struggled with his shot in college and did the complete opposite. I see a guy who'll adapt to whatever scheme or setup he's thrown into. Great players do that.

Lonzo may not be John Wall/Russell Westbrook level explosive, but he's still quick. The guy's a blur in the open court.


Fast. Not quick.

The best PG in the league isn't exactly a flash of lightning either.

Athleticism gets really overrated in prospect ratings. Skillset, BBIQ and intangibles are all >>>.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1826 » by CeltsfaninDC » Wed May 3, 2017 9:04 pm

If LaVar Ball is so great at basketball then why couldn't he teach his own kid how to shoot properly?
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1827 » by Edug27 » Wed May 3, 2017 10:23 pm

Fruit Pastilles wrote:
Edug27 wrote:
Fruit Pastilles wrote:Considering writers all across the country are writing about how special a passer he is, considering his AST:TO ratio is otherworldly good in comparison to other point gods like CP3, Stockton, Kidd and Nash at the same age, considering he was doing all that while playing more of an off-ball role at UCLA last year, considering his scoring and passing efficiency at 19 blows all those former greats out of the water, it's really not that far-fetched.

The thing I hate the most about "internet scouting" is the abundance of people who are afraid to make any kind of reach. Everyone's too safe with their takes, as if they're trying to take care of some non-existent reputation.

There's nothing wrong with a little hyperbole. Especially when the facts back it up quite nicely.

I don't know if he'll ever reach that level, but I think he's certainly on-track. I don't know how some of you can watch him play and see anything but star really.


Oh brother. There's a ton of reaches per day on this board. So the "fear" to make a reach is definitely not the problem. You can be a good passer and still not be on the level of Kidd, Nash and CP. That's the real problem here. You're either Nick Young or Magic Johnson as a passer. There's no in-between. But whatever. We can revisit this one day.

Read that first and last paragraph again, then come back to me.


Youre safely playing all sides of the fence here. Not really sure what I'm even debating with you actually. Let's just leave it here.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1828 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Wed May 3, 2017 10:25 pm

Magic Johnson told Luke Walton that they were getting their pick this year. Wtf
[url]
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/larrybrownsports.com/basketball/magic-johnson-assures-luke-walton-lakers-keep-pick/367102/amp[/url]

In a recent appearance on CBS Sports’ “We Need To Talk,” Lakers head coach Luke Walton said that Johnson has all but guaranteed him that the team will be keeping their first-round pick this year.

[“Magic has already assured me that we’re going to get our top-three pick this year so I’m excited about that,” said the 37-year-old coach. “We don’t know who the pick is yet, but I was just happy to know we’re getting the pick. That’s good enough for me for now.”
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1829 » by jmr07019 » Wed May 3, 2017 10:34 pm

London2Boston wrote:Fair play to Fultz for being one of the few top 10 prospects that hasn't withdrawn from the Draft Combine yet.


I feel like the number 1 pick almost always skips the combine but maybe I'm mis remembering......

sucks that so many are gonna skip this. does that mean we never get the official height and wingspan measurements?
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1830 » by AlCelticFan » Wed May 3, 2017 10:43 pm

CeltsfaninDC wrote:If LaVar Ball is so great at basketball then why couldn't he teach his own kid how to shoot properly?

This is a question that has been bugging me for a while as well.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1831 » by GoodVibezin » Thu May 4, 2017 2:15 am

Did someone mention Lonzo Ball isn't quick? Hogwash!

Unlike speed, which is purely a physical ability, quickness is more of a mental ability as in quick witted, quick recognition, quick decision making. Lonzo Ball isn't a speedster like Wall but Lonzo is quick, very quick.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1832 » by C-West » Thu May 4, 2017 5:57 am

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Magic Johnson told Luke Walton that they were getting their pick this year. Wtf
[url]
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/larrybrownsports.com/basketball/magic-johnson-assures-luke-walton-lakers-keep-pick/367102/amp[/url]

In a recent appearance on CBS Sports’ “We Need To Talk,” Lakers head coach Luke Walton said that Johnson has all but guaranteed him that the team will be keeping their first-round pick this year.

[“Magic has already assured me that we’re going to get our top-three pick this year so I’m excited about that,” said the 37-year-old coach. “We don’t know who the pick is yet, but I was just happy to know we’re getting the pick. That’s good enough for me for now.”


I heard this today too, and the radio hosts in LA were discussing it. I am so anti-conspiracy theories, but this is a little fishy. Also very risky for both Magic and Walton to make this public. If they are right - major fodder for those who think a conspiracy is going on. If they are wrong - they will be viewed around LA as out-of-touch dreamers who didn't bother with a Plan B.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1833 » by Tiny ball » Thu May 4, 2017 9:26 am

C-West wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Magic Johnson told Luke Walton that they were getting their pick this year. Wtf
[url]
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/larrybrownsports.com/basketball/magic-johnson-assures-luke-walton-lakers-keep-pick/367102/amp[/url]

In a recent appearance on CBS Sports’ “We Need To Talk,” Lakers head coach Luke Walton said that Johnson has all but guaranteed him that the team will be keeping their first-round pick this year.

[“Magic has already assured me that we’re going to get our top-three pick this year so I’m excited about that,” said the 37-year-old coach. “We don’t know who the pick is yet, but I was just happy to know we’re getting the pick. That’s good enough for me for now.”


I heard this today too, and the radio hosts in LA were discussing it. I am so anti-conspiracy theories, but this is a little fishy. Also very risky for both Magic and Walton to make this public. If they are right - major fodder for those who think a conspiracy is going on. If they are wrong - they will be viewed around LA as out-of-touch dreamers who didn't bother with a Plan B.

I believe the draft, a long with many games are fixed. I am just not a very trusting person plus I believe a lot of what I see with my own eyes.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1834 » by pasfru » Thu May 4, 2017 9:57 am

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Magic Johnson told Luke Walton that they were getting their pick this year. Wtf
[url]
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/larrybrownsports.com/basketball/magic-johnson-assures-luke-walton-lakers-keep-pick/367102/amp[/url]

In a recent appearance on CBS Sports’ “We Need To Talk,” Lakers head coach Luke Walton said that Johnson has all but guaranteed him that the team will be keeping their first-round pick this year.

[“Magic has already assured me that we’re going to get our top-three pick this year so I’m excited about that,” said the 37-year-old coach. “We don’t know who the pick is yet, but I was just happy to know we’re getting the pick. That’s good enough for me for now.”

If you actually watch the interview, it's pretty obvious that he's joking (skip to 5:29).



Well, it's either that, or the lottery is fixed and the aliens are coming.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1835 » by 165bows » Thu May 4, 2017 12:18 pm

C-West wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Magic Johnson told Luke Walton that they were getting their pick this year. Wtf
[url]
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/larrybrownsports.com/basketball/magic-johnson-assures-luke-walton-lakers-keep-pick/367102/amp[/url]

In a recent appearance on CBS Sports’ “We Need To Talk,” Lakers head coach Luke Walton said that Johnson has all but guaranteed him that the team will be keeping their first-round pick this year.

[“Magic has already assured me that we’re going to get our top-three pick this year so I’m excited about that,” said the 37-year-old coach. “We don’t know who the pick is yet, but I was just happy to know we’re getting the pick. That’s good enough for me for now.”


I heard this today too, and the radio hosts in LA were discussing it. I am so anti-conspiracy theories, but this is a little fishy. Also very risky for both Magic and Walton to make this public. If they are right - major fodder for those who think a conspiracy is going on. If they are wrong - they will be viewed around LA as out-of-touch dreamers who didn't bother with a Plan B.

Good chance Magic has no idea how the lottery works. Throw in the pick protection and I'd put it at even money Magic doesn't have a firm grasp on the situation as to how they might keep it or lose it.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1836 » by SmartWentCrazy » Thu May 4, 2017 1:47 pm

Curiously, what do people see as the difference between Jon Isaac and Myles Turner?

I see them as similar scorers with similar games. Both similar rebounders and strong defenders. Turner is more of a post defender, with more blocks, while Isaac is more of a perimeter defender [also had more steals].

Isaac was a slightly worse 2 point jump shooter, but better 3 point jump shooter. He was also a slightly worse FT shooter.

I wasn't high on the star potential of Turner coming out of the draft and fear I'm making a similar mistake. Why can't Isaac be the next Turner?

To add, please don't call Isaac a wing. He can't dribble and can't create. He's 100% going to be a big at the next level.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1837 » by Banks2Pierce » Thu May 4, 2017 3:50 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:Curiously, what do people see as the difference between Jon Isaac and Myles Turner?



Isaac is so thin/weak that I think he'll end up primarily being a 4 while Turner's a 5. I know guys can put on weight, but he's starting from such a basement level. Need a bit more feel as a 4 than a 5 and that's where I think Isaac's biggest issue is as far as likelihood of reaching the ceiling his length/athleticism has opened up. Isaac's got some very intriguing stats, but Turner's 4.7 blocks per 40 were a different level. 4's are a pretty deep position in the league, but stretch 4s that can play D are starting to look like a necessity in the current landscape. I think Isaac will be a good pro. I have trouble seeing his path to stardom and I think we should be hunting stars.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1838 » by GoodVibezin » Thu May 4, 2017 5:06 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:I wasn't high on the star potential of Turner coming out of the draft and fear I'm making a similar mistake. Why can't Isaac be the next Turner?

To add, please don't call Isaac a wing. He can't dribble and can't create. He's 100% going to be a big at the next level.


Isaac will be better than Turner given a higher IQ. I like Isaac's awareness on the defensive end.

I disagree that you don't think Isaac will be a wing player. I predict he'll start out as a SF where he can dominate on the perimeter and when he puts on some weight and fills out he'll move to the 4 spot where he will be effective in the post. His handle isn't good when going against smaller guards but there are many clips of Isaac putting the ball on the floor against bigs and finishing with authority.

If Isaac were a senior instead of a freshman I would agree with you completely but I think judging Isaac's handle given that he's only 19 isn't really fair or accurate. He dribbles more than he should but at least he has the mindset to do so. This is important, as it's necessary o have the mindset of a ball handler in order to become one.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1839 » by ryaningf » Thu May 4, 2017 5:12 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:No, I'm using weight as a proxy for strength as we have no idea what his weight room numbers and weight gets updated every year.


Weight room strength does not equate to basketball-specific strength. They're two different animals. One is in a controlled, sterile environment with (hopefully) perfect form involving specialized movements across one or two planes (vertical, horizontal, diagonal) that you repeat for a set amount of time or reps. In order to target a particular muscle or muscle group, you often need to keep the rest of your body neutral or static (unlike basketball where you're always moving)

Basketball is a game of athleticism where the objective of the game drives you to move across multiple planes every second, in incredibly unique ways, often with bad form, either because you have poor movement mechanics, are fatigued, or have been pushed into that position by some objective you're attempting to accomplish (i.e., you're putting your body on the line so to speak). Squatting, lunging, hip hinging, pressing, pulling (which are all the ways you move weight) have some carryover to the game (by building endurance which prevents injury), but it's limited. You do those things in the weight room to prepare yourself to play but they don't necessarily translate to the court UNLESS YOU LEARN HOW TO APPLY STRENGTH IN BASKETBALL-SPECIFIC WAYS.

This is why it's almost universally true that the strongest person in the weight room is never the strongest person on the court.

For basketball players, the weight room is used to prevent injuries, improve endurance or explosiveness (depending on how and what you're training for), and improve your work ethic (by pushing yourself past your perceived limits you create confidence that translates to playing a sport). The "strength" component of the weight room is something for meatheads to ponder.

SmartWentCrazy wrote:You can realistically approximate how strong an individual with very low body fat is by their weight.

Brandon Ingram isn't just slightly weak, which 10-15 lbs implies. He's significantly devoid of strength.


Again, you're mistaken. Body fat % (which can vary by as much as 5% weekly) and weight are just not important considerations here. We can see everything we need to see by watching how Ingram plays.

Ingram needs to learn how to apply his body with it's particular points of leverages (as determined by the lengths of arms, legs, torso) in a forceful way while playing the game of basketball against grown men. By far, the best way to do that is to play basketball against grown men under the watchful eyes of coaches and trainers. Basketball is rarely a game of pure strength, and often speed, quickness, anticipation, and effort determine the outcomes of a particular play more than a simple calculation of who's stronger. Ingram needs to focus on those aspects of the game, working on his footwork, effort level, and anticipation.
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Re: All Things 2017 Draft 

Post#1840 » by greenroom31 » Thu May 4, 2017 5:13 pm

GoodVibezin wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:I wasn't high on the star potential of Turner coming out of the draft and fear I'm making a similar mistake. Why can't Isaac be the next Turner?

To add, please don't call Isaac a wing. He can't dribble and can't create. He's 100% going to be a big at the next level.


Isaac will be better than Turner given a higher IQ. I like Isaac's awareness on the defensive end.

I disagree that you don't think Isaac will be a wing player. I predict he'll start out as a SF where he can dominate on the perimeter and when he puts on some weight and fills out he'll move to the 4 spot where he will be effective in the post. His handle isn't good when going against smaller guards but there are many clips of Isaac putting the ball on the floor against bigs and finishing with authority.

If Isaac were a senior instead of a freshman I would agree with you completely but I think judging Isaac's handle given that he's only 19 isn't really fair or accurate. He dribbles more than he should but at least he has the mindset to do so. This is important, as it's necessary o have the mindset of a ball handler in order to become one.


Yeah I think he'll be a SF as well initially, although we live in a position-less world now. I view his ceiling as Rashard Lewis... problem is he disappears a lot in games and needs to work on his handle. Defensively he also had less impact in college than you'd like for a guy with his size and length. He needs to learn to compete harder.

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