The (Quintessential) Trade Thread, 2017 (Part 5.0)

[Gomes3PC]

What evidence is there that Drummond makes his team's defense worse?

I mean, the Pistons' defense is 10 points better per 100 possessions when he is off the floor. That's not some minute and negligible difference where you can say "what's the context?" That's a huge disparity, and the problem with Drummond is he doesn't have the offensive game to nullify/counter that.

How many of those minutes is he on the court with Reggie Jackson?

There are a lot of explanations for that. Lowe wrote an article that you probably read. It's not so cut and dry as, he's not good defensively. Because he certainly (IMO) can be a high-level defender in the right system. SVG is clearly doing something wrong. Drummond is a 6'11" gazelle.

Drummond is a bad rim protector, period. He's only had one year where they've been better defensively with him on the court vs. off, and even then they had a not-great 105 DRtg. Last year he allowed opponents to shoot 53% at the rim, in the range of the likes of Kelly Olynyk, Frank Kaminsky, Nik Vucevic, Mason Plumlee and Enes Kanter.

He has all the physical tools to be good defensively, but he doesn't understand angles and frankly doesn't really put in effort on that end.

[ConstableGeneva]

Adam Himmelsbach (Boston Globe): What trade deadline options are the Celtics exploring?

Spoiler:

All indications are that Boston’s potential seismic strike is more likely to come this summer. But that does not mean the trade deadline will pass with no movement.

The Celtics have identified a small group of role players they could have interest in acquiring, and Suns forward P.J. Tucker is among them. But Boston will not go overboard or hinder its flexibility chasing these deals, and it has no plans to relinquish a future first-round pick for a player like Tucker, who would simply offer some assistance off the bench, a source said.

When teams have contacted that Celtics about potential trades, the teams “always start” with that Nets pick, a source said. This is considered one of the most talented drafts in years, but the Celtics have made it clear that the Nets pick is not untouchable.

For now, the Celtics would just like to have a sustained stretch in which they are completely healthy. There is cautious optimism that guard Avery Bradley (Achilles’) and forward Jaylen Brown (hip flexor) will both return to face the Raptors on Friday night. Within the organization there is a belief that chasing the Cavaliers with this team, then moving forward with free-agent flexibility and a top draft pick this summer might be the wisest approach.

But if there is a sudden opportunity to make a big splash, the Celtics will not be afraid to test the waters.

Like Bulpett, this guy is usually on point. Call him wet blanket 2.0 if you will, but he's objective and not trying to get clicks/make people post itshappening.gif after reading his stuff. Standing pat, maybe adding a guy like Tucker for Wolves 2nd rounder looks reasonable.

RealGM Celtics board:

Spoiler:

Bulpett/Himmelsbach:

Spoiler:

[aim2please]

Spoiler:

What evidence is there that Drummond makes his team's defense worse?

I mean, the Pistons' defense is 10 points better per 100 possessions when he is off the floor. That's not some minute and negligible difference where you can say "what's the context?" That's a huge disparity, and the problem with Drummond is he doesn't have the offensive game to nullify/counter that.

I would say there is a massive problem with that statistic or the way you are using it. Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating are what you are talking about the estimate of points per 100 possessions. Drummond leads the NBA with a defensive rating of 98 and has for the last two seasons. The Pistons are 7th in the NBA in defensive rating as a team 106.9 essentially the exact opposite of what your citing.

If I am looking at this page
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drumman01/on-off/2017
I am pretty sure -11.4 in Defensive Rating is a good thing. They give up 11.4 points per 100 possessions less with Drummond on the floor.

You're reading it wrong. Look at Durant's numbers. +7.5 with him on the floor. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01/on-off/2017

According to bball refence, Pistons are 11.4 points per 100 poss better when he sits. He has the tools to be a monster on the defensive end. I don't watch Pistons that much to know why isn't he making their defense better, but those numbers are ugly.

Edit: They were much better with him on the floor last year http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drumman01/on-off/2016

[Celtic Esquire]

Duplicate.

[ConstableGeneva]

Spoiler:

I mean, the Pistons' defense is 10 points better per 100 possessions when he is off the floor. That's not some minute and negligible difference where you can say "what's the context?" That's a huge disparity, and the problem with Drummond is he doesn't have the offensive game to nullify/counter that.

I would say there is a massive problem with that statistic or the way you are using it. Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating are what you are talking about the estimate of points per 100 possessions. Drummond leads the NBA with a defensive rating of 98 and has for the last two seasons. The Pistons are 7th in the NBA in defensive rating as a team 106.9 essentially the exact opposite of what your citing.

If I am looking at this page
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drumman01/on-off/2017
I am pretty sure -11.4 in Defensive Rating is a good thing. They give up 11.4 points per 100 possessions less with Drummond on the floor.

You're reading it wrong. Look at Durant's numbers. +7.5 with him on the floor. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01/on-off/2017

According to bball refence, Pistons are 11.4 points per 100 poss better when he sits. He has the tools to be a monster on the defensive end. I don't watch Pistons that much to know why isn't he making their defense better, but those numbers are ugly.

Edit: They were much better with him on the floor last year http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drumman01/on-off/2016

Same on stats.NBA.com. Pistons are better with him sitting, worse with him playing.

[Roddy]

Stats show that the Spurs are better defensively with Kawhi on the bench.

Stats don't tell the whole story.........

[CelticFaninLBC]

Going to be very disappointing if the big move is PJ Tucker, and Ainge wasted the last month getting jerked around by GarPax.

[Celtic Esquire]

Hell no to trading any of our BK picks unless suddenly Westbrook becomes available. Can't give away a shot a drafting Fultz or Ball.

All of the potential targets have issues or question marks:

1) Butler - supposedly become a big douche after signing his big contract and loves throwing his coach and his teammates under the bus.

2) Griffin - FA after this season and no guarantee that he will re-sign.

3) Hayward - why trade for him when we can sign him as a FA?

4) Carmelo - perpetual loser and besides, LaLa will never let him leave NYC. Don't want a P whipped chucker on our team.

I'd rather make a minor trade for someone like Bogut who can help with interior D and rebounding.

[sully00]

I would be shocked if Ainge were genuinely interested in Drummond. He doesn't fit anything they do on offense, and forces Horford permanently to the 4 on D. I'm not sure which of those is more troubling. He's not a Cousins-level headcase and is signed long-term already, but he lacks all of the versatility that made Boogie appealing as an on-court fit.

Because Drummond's defensive impact isn't tied to his offensive role. Cousins attitude and effort is completely tied to his touches and role in the offense. It is a side effect almost, he is so big and talented he is effective on defense when he is motivated but it is not part of some commitment to the job.

Cousins uses more possessions than anyone besides Westbrook at 37.5%. Drummond is at 23% and almost a quarter of those possessions Drummond creates himself on the offensive glass. Cousins is half the offensive rebounder statistically that Drummond is much of this is due to the perimeter shooting aspect of their games.

[ConstableGeneva]

Stats show that the Spurs are better defensively with Kawhi on the bench.

Stats don't tell the whole story.........

Yep, plus we won't know how he'll do in a different system / under a new coach. I bet the Celtics or any competent organization have ways to project this though.

[fallguy]

Feeling very good about a quiet deadline with a minor move or two.

[hickfromfrenchlick]

I mean, the Pistons' defense is 10 points better per 100 possessions when he is off the floor. That's not some minute and negligible difference where you can say "what's the context?" That's a huge disparity, and the problem with Drummond is he doesn't have the offensive game to nullify/counter that.

How many of those minutes is he on the court with Reggie Jackson?

There are a lot of explanations for that. Lowe wrote an article that you probably read. It's not so cut and dry as, he's not good defensively. Because he certainly (IMO) can be a high-level defender in the right system. SVG is clearly doing something wrong. Drummond is a 6'11" gazelle.

Drummond is a bad rim protector, period. He's only had one year where they've been better defensively with him on the court vs. off, and even then they had a not-great 105 DRtg. Last year he allowed opponents to shoot 53% at the rim, in the range of the likes of Kelly Olynyk, Frank Kaminsky, Nik Vucevic, Mason Plumlee and Enes Kanter.

He has all the physical tools to be good defensively, but he doesn't understand angles and frankly doesn't really put in effort on that end.

I think he would help us tremendously. He's clearly not maximizing his tools. If he didn't understand angles he wouldn't be averaging 14 rebounds per game. He's clearly struggling somewhat in SVG's scheme.

But let's be real: A UConn fan's opinion and a PC fan's opinion cancel each other out.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

My buddy is a Pistons fan and his take on Drummond is this: he's pretty much at his ceiling already offensively, and although he has the tools to dominate defensively, he has only been a little above average. He's pretty disappointed in his progression thus far, and would be delighted if Drummond was traded for either one of the Nets picks.

[BleedGreen1989]

Ughhh slowest 48 hours coming in.....

[Captain_Caveman]

Adam Himmelsbach (Boston Globe): What trade deadline options are the Celtics exploring?

All indications are that Boston’s potential seismic strike is more likely to come this summer. But that does not mean the trade deadline will pass with no movement.

The Celtics have identified a small group of role players they could have interest in acquiring, and Suns forward P.J. Tucker is among them. But Boston will not go overboard or hinder its flexibility chasing these deals, and it has no plans to relinquish a future first-round pick for a player like Tucker, who would simply offer some assistance off the bench, a source said.

When teams have contacted that Celtics about potential trades, the teams “always start” with that Nets pick, a source said. This is considered one of the most talented drafts in years, but the Celtics have made it clear that the Nets pick is not untouchable.

For now, the Celtics would just like to have a sustained stretch in which they are completely healthy. There is cautious optimism that guard Avery Bradley (Achilles’) and forward Jaylen Brown (hip flexor) will both return to face the Raptors on Friday night. Within the organization there is a belief that chasing the Cavaliers with this team, then moving forward with free-agent flexibility and a top draft pick this summer might be the wisest approach.

But if there is a sudden opportunity to make a big splash, the Celtics will not be afraid to test the waters.

Perfect. Exactly where they should be on this. All the leverage is ours to deal or not.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

How many of those minutes is he on the court with Reggie Jackson?

There are a lot of explanations for that. Lowe wrote an article that you probably read. It's not so cut and dry as, he's not good defensively. Because he certainly (IMO) can be a high-level defender in the right system. SVG is clearly doing something wrong. Drummond is a 6'11" gazelle.

Drummond is a bad rim protector, period. He's only had one year where they've been better defensively with him on the court vs. off, and even then they had a not-great 105 DRtg. Last year he allowed opponents to shoot 53% at the rim, in the range of the likes of Kelly Olynyk, Frank Kaminsky, Nik Vucevic, Mason Plumlee and Enes Kanter.

He has all the physical tools to be good defensively, but he doesn't understand angles and frankly doesn't really put in effort on that end.

I think he would help us tremendously. He's clearly not maximizing his tools. If he didn't understand angles he wouldn't be averaging 14 rebounds per game. He's clearly struggling somewhat in SVG's scheme.

But let's be real: A UConn fan's opinion and a PC fan's opinion cancel each other out.

Stan's been trying to recreate the style he had in Orlando with Dwight. If Drummond can't excel on that sort of scheme, then I'd be weary about him. Not too often a team starts offering up a 23 year old center averaging a double-double if they were happy about his play.

[Captain_Caveman]

Feeling very good about a quiet deadline with a minor move or two.

Bogut for the Minny 2nd and call it a day.

[Captain_Caveman]

LOL @ a Nets pick for Drummond.

Get a hold of yourselves, men.

[Homerclease]

Feeling very good about a quiet deadline with a minor move or two.

Bogut for the Minny 2nd and call it a day.

Id send out a future second as well to upgrade Gerald Green to PJ Tucker

[ConstableGeneva]

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Good thing Bill Simmons has zero say in the Celtics organization. If you didn't know better, you'd think he was a Knicks fan. What a goofball.