All Aboard! Next Stop "2017 NBA Draft Lottery" All Things Draft Thread

[VeryMuchWoke]

Dunc'd on Podcast discussed Jackson. I agree with his perspective, which is that he's not very high on him (the Jackson stuff starts around 35 minutes):

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2017/05/22/boscle-game-3-josh-jackson-scouting-report

I heard it this morning, it sounds as if, based on listening to his past stuff, he's higher on Jaylen than Josh, which kind of shocked me. Sounds like Jackson is very limited offensively and being twenty is already older than Jaylen. I think this further confirmed for me that Tatum was a better prospect than Jackson. It sounds like he likes Isaac more than Jackson as well. I think Isaac is a fascinating prospect, but I worry that he was so passive in his one year, will he ever attempt to be a first option?

Yeah, he actually explicitly compares Jaylen to Jackson and prefers Jaylen at around the 38 minute mark. I view them as pretty close to equal value although somewhat different players from a skill set perspective.

As for Isaac, I disagree with their opinion on him. Maybe I'm tainted from watching his ACC play, but I just don't see him ever becoming a dominant player. I feel like they're judging Isaac purely physically and ignoring his mental disposition, which is pretty passive and deferential. Or at least it was in college. I agree that Isaac has the length and skill set on paper to be a star in the league, but I just don't think he has much likelihood of fulfilling that potential.

I don't have a ton of respect for their draft takes, but they sold me on Jaylen being a slightly better prospect. Here's how I see it:

Jaylen: More switchable, longer arms, better shooter, more creative ballhandler/creator, stronger, no off court concerns
Jackson: Better passing/vision, better motor

I go back and forth on Isaac. I think if we could pick him up in the 8-10 range he'd be worth taking a chance on, just because his tools are enticing, and if he works out he'd be a nice long super-role player at the 4.

[pasfru]

Has this been posted here yet?

[Gomes3PC]

The difference with Fultz is that his game already has so few flaws. I mean, the downside I see is he's something like Eric Gordon - a solid SG who never becomes much more than "meh" defensively and really should be your 2nd ballhandler and not the go-to guy.

Eric Gordon is still a DAMN good player in the NBA, a top-10 SG and someone who can play 30+ MPG on a title contender.

Maybe I'm being optimistic that's Fultz's floor but that's honestly what I see. If he reaches his peak, you're talking Wade/Harden, HOF-caliber hybrid guards.

Like this ceiling/floor idea for Fultz. For ceiling I agree that Wade with a 3 point shot seems like a pretty good one. Or maybe a smaller and quicker/more agile Paul Pierce.

Floor is actually a bit harder and can't even really think of a great one. Maybe Larry Hughes or something?

Larry Hughes was a great defender whose offense came late, last.

Don't think the Wade, Pierce or Gordon comparisons work. Eric Gordon, though, before he was injured, was on his way to being a star. Is he top 10 now, with some recovery and the right situation? I don't think so.

Here's a comp - he was taller, more of a shooter and 2/3, but.. Dale Ellis?

The list of effective 2-guards in the league is pretty slim:

Harden
Klay

Beal
Middleton
Green
McCollum
Derozan
Booker

Batum
Gordon
Bradley
Harris
Caldwell-Pope


I guess some of it depends on who you call a SG - is Jimmy Butler a guard? He played SF most of the time this year. Gordon Hayward? Same story.

[ViperGTS]

Has this been posted here yet?

Tells me Fultz is the best shooter. When he was doubled teamed everytime for the most part. Look at how few shots Lonzo takes from inside the arc. He's gonna struggle or be a pass only dude in the NBA. No pull up jumper to speak of. That's brutal.

[Jingles]

Has this been posted here yet?

Tells me Fultz is the best shooter. When he was doubled teamed everytime for the most part. Look at how few shots Lonzo takes from inside the arc. He's gonna struggle or be a pass only dude in the NBA. No pull up jumper to speak of. That's brutal.

This chart is a great moment in design manipulation. Look at Ball...all green!

[pasfru]

Has this been posted here yet?

Tells me Fultz is the best shooter. When he was doubled teamed everytime for the most part. Look at how few shots Lonzo takes from inside the arc. He's gonna struggle or be a pass only dude in the NBA. No pull up jumper to speak of. That's brutal.

It wasn't that he couldn't (seeing as his chart is all green), I think it's more that he just chose not to.

Threes and shots at the rim. The two most effective shots on the court. I think it happened by design.

[ViperGTS]

Has this been posted here yet?

Tells me Fultz is the best shooter. When he was doubled teamed everytime for the most part. Look at how few shots Lonzo takes from inside the arc. He's gonna struggle or be a pass only dude in the NBA. No pull up jumper to speak of. That's brutal.

It wasn't that he couldn't (seeing as his chart is all green), I think it's more that he just chose not to.

Threes and shots at the rim. The two most effective shots on the court. I think it happened by design.

Wrong. I've seen breakdowns that it's his shot that doesn't allow him to do the quick pull up jumpers. It's not by design. It's because he can't, at least right now.

[ddb]

talked to a scout friend of mine earlier today down in FL. Asked him about Fultz (I'm sure he was anticipating the question from me!)...He said Fultz could be the best PG in the league in 5 years. Said he'd be ready to be a key contributor right away as a rookie. Said his offense is very mature for his age. Said he's dynamic in that he can score & play make from all over the floor.
Said he's not getting enough credit for his athleticism...he said people talk about how smooth he is often, but forget how explosive he is as well.
I asked for a comp. He said, "I don't want to say Harden, because I think Fultz will be a good defender. but if you can imagine a right handed, more athletic James Harden that will defend"
I asked him if the celtics should be considering anyone else at #1... he said, "absolutely not. Fultz is their guy if they keep the pick"

Okay, so I'm sold. Very excited about this draft.

I also asked if he could think of any possible trade partners for the #1 pick. He wasn't ready to answer that question yet. He said that stuff usually heats up as the draft approaches and after teams are working various players out.

[islanders11040]

Not sure if u guys care at all if you are only looking at Fultz and Ball. But ill throw this out there for potential trades or just having more info.

Interesting take from Dunc'd On Basketball Podcast:

Nate Duncan and Danny LeRoux prospect reviews on Isaac, Tatum and Jackson
Near draft season Nate and Danny do prospect reviews on the top 10 or so prospects after watching detailed game film on each prospect. I especially enjoy Nate's perspective since he watches more NBA than almost anyone and tends to look at prospects at how they would fit in today's NBA. For example his top 3 last year was Simmons, Brown and Murray and he was completely out on Dunn which looks good in retrospect.

Recently they started their draft review on the 3 wings in the 2017 NBA draft. Namely Jayson Tatum, Jonathan Isaac, and Josh Jackson in that order respectively. The prospect reviews are 15-20 minutes long and the links to the 3 reviews and the start time are linked below:

Podcast reviewing Jayson Tatum starts at the 34:55 minute mark

Spoiler:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2017/05/17/lotto-mania-sasgsw-game-2-jayson-tatum-scouting-report

Podcast reviewing Jonathan Isaac starts at the 41:23 minute mark

Spoiler:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2017/05/21/conference-finals-all-nba-team-implications-jonathan-isaac-scouting-report

Podcast reviewing Josh Jackson starts at the 31:50 minute mark

Spoiler:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2017/05/22/boscle-game-3-josh-jackson-scouting-report

After reviewing the 3 wing prospects they had the following ranking:

Isaac
(big gap)
Tatum
(slight gap)
Jackson

They both agreed that the only wing prospect that might be worth a top 5 pick in this draft is Isaac.

Post courtesy of klutch_shot on reddit

[rochrist]

Has this been posted here yet?

Tells me Fultz is the best shooter. When he was doubled teamed everytime for the most part. Look at how few shots Lonzo takes from inside the arc. He's gonna struggle or be a pass only dude in the NBA. No pull up jumper to speak of. That's brutal.

It wasn't that he couldn't (seeing as his chart is all green), I think it's more that he just chose not to.

Threes and shots at the rim. The two most effective shots on the court. I think it happened by design.

There aren't enough shots in the mid range to make that green significant.

[pasfru]

Tells me Fultz is the best shooter. When he was doubled teamed everytime for the most part. Look at how few shots Lonzo takes from inside the arc. He's gonna struggle or be a pass only dude in the NBA. No pull up jumper to speak of. That's brutal.

It wasn't that he couldn't (seeing as his chart is all green), I think it's more that he just chose not to.

Threes and shots at the rim. The two most effective shots on the court. I think it happened by design.

Wrong. I've seen breakdowns that it's his shot that doesn't allow him to do the quick pull up jumpers. It's not by design. It's because he can't, at least right now.

You watched a breakdown? ****, you got me up against the wall.

He's 19.

Not many rookies ever have a decent pull-up shot.

I just don't think it's a coincidence that everything about this guy's game screams hyper-efficient, yet you think he doesn't shoot many low-percentage inefficient mid-range 2s because he sucks?

Lonzo doesn't care about college. He wants to play in the NBA, and the modern NBA is all about threes and high-percentage shots at the rim.

Even then, I don't think creating shots is anywhere near as important as being able to select and make them. Guys like Rubio, Rondo and prime Kidd couldn't make shots. Lonzo's eFG% on the other hand is stupidly high for a freshman guard.

I just think most of these arguments fail to see the big picture. When we're talking about a basketball genius who makes his teammates better and is outlier good at making effective shots, it doesn't really matter what moves he can pull off the dribble. He's still gonna win and be great.

[Gant]

talked to a scout friend of mine earlier today down in FL. Asked him about Fultz (I'm sure he was anticipating the question from me!)...He said Fultz could be the best PG in the league in 5 years. Said he'd be ready to be a key contributor right away as a rookie. Said his offense is very mature for his age. Said he's dynamic in that he can score & play make from all over the floor.
Said he's not getting enough credit for his athleticism...he said people talk about how smooth he is often, but forget how explosive he is as well.
I asked for a comp. He said, "I don't want to say Harden, because I think Fultz will be a good defender. but if you can imagine a right handed, more athletic James Harden that will defend"
I asked him if the celtics should be considering anyone else at #1... he said, "absolutely not. Fultz is their guy if they keep the pick"

Okay, so I'm sold. Very excited about this draft.

I also asked if he could think of any possible trade partners for the #1 pick. He wasn't ready to answer that question yet. He said that stuff usually heats up as the draft approaches and after teams are working various players out.

That's good stuff. It's exactly what I've been thinking but didn't want to say because I don't watch enough NCAA. I like a lot of guys in this draft but love Fultz. He'll be better in the pros than in college.

Also I agree on his defense. He has every physical tool to be a really good defender- just has to learn how.

When you take into consideration age, cost, and superteams, there are so few guys worth trading him for, and the few stars anyone would trade Fultz for are highly unlikely to be available at any price.

This season has been really fun. Next season is going to be on another level.

[Banks2Pierce]

This chart is a great moment in design manipulation. Look at Ball...all green!

Has the FGAs right on there so you have to be extremely lazy to be manipulated by it.

[ViperGTS]

It wasn't that he couldn't (seeing as his chart is all green), I think it's more that he just chose not to.

Threes and shots at the rim. The two most effective shots on the court. I think it happened by design.

Wrong. I've seen breakdowns that it's his shot that doesn't allow him to do the quick pull up jumpers. It's not by design. It's because he can't, at least right now.

You watched a breakdown? ****, you got me up against the wall.

He's 19.

Not many rookies ever have a decent pull-up shot.

I just don't think it's a coincidence that everything about this guy's game screams hyper-efficient, yet you think he doesn't shoot many low-percentage inefficient mid-range 2s because he sucks?

Lonzo doesn't care about college. He wants to play in the NBA, and the modern NBA is all about threes and high-percentage shots at the rim.

Even then, I don't think creating shots is anywhere near as important as being able to select and make them. Guys like Rubio, Rondo and prime Kidd couldn't make shots. Lonzo's eFG% on the other hand is stupidly high for a freshman guard.

I just think most of these arguments fail to see the big picture. When we're talking about a basketball genius who makes his teammates better and is outlier good at making effective shots, it doesn't really matter what moves he can pull off the dribble. He's still gonna win and be great.

Except for Fultz. He doesn't seem to have a problem with his pull up or midrange. It will bite him in the a**. I didn't like Simmons last year, nor Ingram actually, and I love Futlz and dislike Ball. If the Cs had the number 2, and someone other than the Lakers had number one, I'd be posting a hell of a lot of anti Ball info. I've seen quite a bit and his shot, with its inefficiencies will be something to watch closely. Not in the summer league, and not even against some crapbag NBA team. Up against the big boys, in our zip code, Avery etc, good luck.

He will be a great passer and his offense will be adequate. He will be a good player, just not a great one. Most likely an All Star but nothing higher than that.

[ddb]

talked to a scout friend of mine earlier today down in FL. Asked him about Fultz (I'm sure he was anticipating the question from me!)...He said Fultz could be the best PG in the league in 5 years. Said he'd be ready to be a key contributor right away as a rookie. Said his offense is very mature for his age. Said he's dynamic in that he can score & play make from all over the floor.
Said he's not getting enough credit for his athleticism...he said people talk about how smooth he is often, but forget how explosive he is as well.
I asked for a comp. He said, "I don't want to say Harden, because I think Fultz will be a good defender. but if you can imagine a right handed, more athletic James Harden that will defend"
I asked him if the celtics should be considering anyone else at #1... he said, "absolutely not. Fultz is their guy if they keep the pick"

Okay, so I'm sold. Very excited about this draft.

I also asked if he could think of any possible trade partners for the #1 pick. He wasn't ready to answer that question yet. He said that stuff usually heats up as the draft approaches and after teams are working various players out.

That's good stuff. It's exactly what I've been thinking but didn't want to say because I don't watch enough NCAA. I like a lot of guys in this draft but love Fultz. He'll be better in the pros than in college.

Also I agree on his defense. He has every physical tool to be a really good defender- just has to learn how.

When you take into consideration age, cost, and superteams, there are so few guys worth trading him for, and the few stars anyone would trade Fultz for are highly unlikely to be available at any price.

This season has been really fun. Next season is going to be on another level.

I would trade the #1 in a package for Davis. That's my guy. I think his best years are ahead and I feel like his style of play could help this team raise banners. But it's a very short list of guys I'd trade the pick for.

LeBron- Not happening.
Durant- Not leaving Golden State. That ship has sailed
Westbrook- IDK. IT/#1 type package for RW? I'd probably pass. Russ will stay in OKC and be the highest paid player soon
Harden- I'd rather just keep the pick
Kawai- Yes. I'd trade the #1/Crowder/BK18 for Leonard, but the Spurs aren't moving him
Davis- Yes. I'd trade for Davis. He's my #1 guy I'd want in a trade
KAT- Minny isn't moving him anytime soon
Zinger- I would pass.
Klay- Nope. I'd rather have #1.
George- Nope. I'd rather have #1
Butler- Nope. I'd rather have #1.
MGasol- Nope
DGreen- Nope

[London2Boston]

Has this been posted here yet?

Lonzo can't shoot though..


Both are studs tbh. I ride with Fultz though.

[Gant]

talked to a scout friend of mine earlier today down in FL. Asked him about Fultz (I'm sure he was anticipating the question from me!)...He said Fultz could be the best PG in the league in 5 years. Said he'd be ready to be a key contributor right away as a rookie. Said his offense is very mature for his age. Said he's dynamic in that he can score & play make from all over the floor.
Said he's not getting enough credit for his athleticism...he said people talk about how smooth he is often, but forget how explosive he is as well.
I asked for a comp. He said, "I don't want to say Harden, because I think Fultz will be a good defender. but if you can imagine a right handed, more athletic James Harden that will defend"
I asked him if the celtics should be considering anyone else at #1... he said, "absolutely not. Fultz is their guy if they keep the pick"

Okay, so I'm sold. Very excited about this draft.

I also asked if he could think of any possible trade partners for the #1 pick. He wasn't ready to answer that question yet. He said that stuff usually heats up as the draft approaches and after teams are working various players out.

That's good stuff. It's exactly what I've been thinking but didn't want to say because I don't watch enough NCAA. I like a lot of guys in this draft but love Fultz. He'll be better in the pros than in college.

Also I agree on his defense. He has every physical tool to be a really good defender- just has to learn how.

When you take into consideration age, cost, and superteams, there are so few guys worth trading him for, and the few stars anyone would trade Fultz for are highly unlikely to be available at any price.

This season has been really fun. Next season is going to be on another level.

I would trade the #1 in a package for Davis. That's my guy. I think his best years are ahead and I feel like his style of play could help this team raise banners. But it's a very short list of guys I'd trade the pick for.

LeBron- Not happening.
Durant- Not leaving Golden State. That ship has sailed
Westbrook- IDK. IT/#1 type package for RW? I'd probably pass. Russ will stay in OKC and be the highest paid player soon
Harden- I'd rather just keep the pick
Kawai- Yes. I'd trade the #1/Crowder/BK18 for Leonard, but the Spurs aren't moving him
Davis- Yes. I'd trade for Davis. He's my #1 guy I'd want in a trade
KAT- Minny isn't moving him anytime soon
Zinger- I would pass.
Klay- Nope. I'd rather have #1.
George- Nope. I'd rather have #1
Butler- Nope. I'd rather have #1.
MGasol- Nope
DGreen- Nope

Definitely Davis. I bet this is explored and rebuffed.

[pasfru]

Wrong. I've seen breakdowns that it's his shot that doesn't allow him to do the quick pull up jumpers. It's not by design. It's because he can't, at least right now.

You watched a breakdown? ****, you got me up against the wall.

He's 19.

Not many rookies ever have a decent pull-up shot.

I just don't think it's a coincidence that everything about this guy's game screams hyper-efficient, yet you think he doesn't shoot many low-percentage inefficient mid-range 2s because he sucks?

Lonzo doesn't care about college. He wants to play in the NBA, and the modern NBA is all about threes and high-percentage shots at the rim.

Even then, I don't think creating shots is anywhere near as important as being able to select and make them. Guys like Rubio, Rondo and prime Kidd couldn't make shots. Lonzo's eFG% on the other hand is stupidly high for a freshman guard.

I just think most of these arguments fail to see the big picture. When we're talking about a basketball genius who makes his teammates better and is outlier good at making effective shots, it doesn't really matter what moves he can pull off the dribble. He's still gonna win and be great.

Except for Fultz. He doesn't seem to have a problem with his pull up or midrange. It will bite him in the a**. I didn't like Simmons last year, nor Ingram actually, and I love Futlz and dislike Ball. If the Cs had the number 2, and someone other than the Lakers had number one, I'd be posting a hell of a lot of anti Ball info. I've seen quite a bit and his shot, with its inefficiencies will be something to watch closely. Not in the summer league, and not even against some crapbag NBA team. Up against the big boys, in our zip code, Avery etc, good luck.

He will be a great passer and his offense will be adequate. He will be a good player, just not a great one. Most likely an All Star but nothing higher than that.

Fultz is a rare exception. Not many top prospects have to learn how to score at 5'9", then sprout to 6'4" over a couple summers.

[Edug27]

I asked for a comp. He said, "I don't want to say Harden, because I think Fultz will be a good defender. but if you can imagine a right handed, more athletic James Harden that will defend"

James Harden's numbers at the combine: 6'4 with 6'10 wingspan.

Seems to be the same size and length as Fultz coming out. Fultz being a year younger.

Harden as a freshman:
17 pts
5 rebs
3 ast
53% from the floor
41% from 3
75% from FT.
21-13 record. Missed NCAA Tourney.

Fultz as a freshman:
23 pts
5 rebs
5 ast
48% from the floor
41% from 3
65% from FT.
9-22 record (9-16 in games he played). Missed NCAA Tourney.

[jmr07019]

talked to a scout friend of mine earlier today down in FL.......He said .......... more athletic James Harden that will defend