Trade Thread, 2023-24 – (Offseason)

[hugepatsfan]

For the record, most of you talk about Scoot if we got #3 from POR. Indications so far are that CHA is going to take Scoot #2 because they have him higher on their board, even if they have LaMello. So it'd be Brandon Miller at #3, not Scoot. Just saying.

[BK_2020]

Maybe Wemby will slip to #3 and be the next Bill Russell for us.

[lon3lytoaster]

Maybe you could swindle Murray and Huerter from the Kings for Jaylen. That’s probably as good a haul as you’re going to get there.

[djFan71]

For the record, most of you talk about Scoot if we got #3 from POR. Indications so far are that CHA is going to take Scoot #2 because they have him higher on their board, even if they have LaMello. So it'd be Brandon Miller at #3, not Scoot. Just saying.

Yeah, just speculating. I don't even really know how good Scoot would be, so it's all fun for me. But, you'd just not do the deal if you were counting on it being him.

[Larry_Russell]

Brown for simons and 3 and 23

#3, pritchard to detroit for #5 and stewart

Simons for norman powell

Draft Walker at 5
Daft Kris Murray at 23

Smart/brogdon/davidson
Powell/white/begarin
Tatum/Murray/hauser
Walker/horford/Gallinari
Timelord/stewart/muscala

Still have grant s&t and kornet to move for more depth.

Who says no?

Thats not a contender. Thats hedging your bets for Tatum leaving. Under no circumstances should the Celtics keep #3 with that trade. If you trade Brown another star needs to be coming back with him.

Maybe its also time to revisit a deal for Beal where the team moves Smart and White/Brogdon plus picks. Add him and then try to add more toughness off the bench. They need end of the bench guys who are goons

I disagree with the "not a contender" premise. Team has everything this team lacks.

So while none of powell, walker or murray currently are as valuable as Brown, the net is a vastly superior team regarding skill, potential, fit and thoughness.

Powell is also clutch as hell and plays with a chip on his shoulder. He and smart would not put up with any ****.

Add in stewart and they will be one of the toughest teams in the league.

[Larry_Russell]

Yeah, could be. I try to make them realistic - sometimes to the point of screwing us, lol. But, I also like both those guys coming back. If we can get a pick back or what have you, great.

I like stewart a lot, Kind of Meh on Slomo though.

But for Simons I think I want Bogdanovic and Stewart (with a littlemore swetener from us)

But maybe we can just cut detroit out.

Minny needs a lead gaurd...

Portland: Brown for Simons #3
Minny: Simons for McDaniels and Conley
Boston: Brown for Scoot, McDaniels and Conley
Clippers: Conley for Powell and coffey (salary)


Scoot/Brogdton
Smart/White
Tatum/Powell
McDaniels/Grant
Timelord/Horford

Burks and Bojan was actually my initial version. But I decided I wanted beef stew.
I did look at LAC as a Brogdon landing point and decided meh on their guys. Powell fine I guess, but not super exciting tbh.

Also, you are officially dead to me for slandering Slomo.

Powell is my slomo

[djFan71]

If we need a rookie PG to break down defenses when we have Tatum, Brown and Brogdon then we might as well trade everyone.

I think the main reasons we do not break down defenses more often is our motion offense sucks. We do not generate any kind of advantage with our sets. No one is effortely running off screen, picks are set with little intention, passes are not sharp. We have an ISO centered offense but in reality most teams do it by putting defenses on their heels with their motions and sets.

It's completely day and night how much few movement our offense has compared to Den or Mia. We swing a couple or three passes 3 meters out of the 3pt line and then set a half assed screen.

It half worked last year when our defense compensated it (though it was really visible in the Finals and I remember being very vocal about it in the GTs), but this year our defense was bad again and we just couldn't keep up.

It's all about how elite you think said rookie PG can be. Like I said it's a pretty big risk, no doubt. I totally agree on your points on why the offense sucks. Zoyastable, Comedian Your Head and others like myself have been harping on this for years. If you're pitching trades to bring in guys that will make that happen, I'm all ears.

Yeah, I guess I'm not that big of a beliver in Scoot. Both his shooting and defense look suspect, at least suspect enough for team like Boston trying to contend.

He may not be that guy. I'm more of a draft site aggregator type than an actual college/draft expert, lol. I do think what he's "supposed to be" from stuff I read is what I'd like to see added to our offense. Kinda a taller Kemba (that's still not "big") type that isn't as complete a liability on D mixed with a little Chris Paul. Is that too much to ask from a rookie?????

[Hal14]

What is the point of adding a rookie PG to a contender? Serious question

It's a concern for sure and I'm not 100% sold on it by any means. In fact, I probably lean against it. But fun to explore the scenarios.

To me, the current team lacks anyone besides Tatum to consistently break down a defense. And even then, we don't take advantage of the mismatches he creates other than swinging for 3s. Which is great a lot of times. But, our guards just aren't able to punish mismatches that often.

Scoot can help you there, and is a more natural pnr partner for Tatum. There will be growing pains for sure. But, if you do it, you start him from day 1 and play the hell out of him to get thru them. Maybe you're a year or 2 out from full on title contention again. It's a huge risk. But, some rookies do come in and take the league by storm. You're hoping he'd be one.

The flip side is tinker at the edges and get to a few more ECFs maybe, but never get over the hump. If there's a clear JB + picks upgrade trade out there (Cave's steph one), absolutely do that. Or keep JB and add someone by going all in with picks. I just don't know if a lot of the other things I've seen or thought of are really clear upgrades that get you over the hump. Most are reshuffling/minor upgrades even if they look like splashy moves.

Celtics have too manh secondary creators.

Tatum is ok at breaking down defenses,

Smart is hindered by poor shooting and gets left alone offensively by opposing team. (Love smart but he cannot be closing games out offensively)

Brogdon is good but not great.

White isnt

Brown is bad


We have no way to get a guy that can expose a defense and force it to shift, that i can see, without taking a bit of a risk.

Ok. I guess this is as good a time as any for me to throw out an idea I was just thinking about (someone else may have even mentioned it the other day).

Brown + filler for Trae.

Hear me out.

I did a bunch of research today.

I looked up every team that's won the title since 2006 (including the 2006 Heat).

None of those teams had 2 guys with a usage rate of 30+, while having an assist rate of less than 25.

The only teams since then who won a title with 2 guys with a usage rate of 30+ were...

-2018 warriors (Curry and KD). They each had a usage rate similar to Tatum and Brown, BUT very different assist rates. 31% for Curry and 25% for KD, so a total assist rate between them of 56%. Meanwhile, Tatum is at 21% and Brown is at just 16%, for a total assist rate of just 37%. 37% is WAY less than 56%.

-2012 Heat (LeBron and Wade). They each had a usage rate similar to Tatum and Brown, BUT very different assist rates. 33% for LeBron and 27% for Wade, so a total assist rate between them of 60%. Meanwhile, Tatum is at 21% and Brown is at just 16%, for a total assist rate of just 37%. 37% is WAY less than 60%.

-2006 Heat (Wade and Shaq). Shaq with usage rate of 30% and assist rate of only 12% is bad, but it worked out with him and Wade, because that season Wade had a crazy high assist rate of 33%, which was actually higher than his usage rate of 32%. Shaq/Wade's combined usage rate was about the same as tatum/Brown, but Shaq/Wade's combined assist rate was 45%, which is much higher than Tatum/Brown's combined assist rate of just 37%.

A couple other teams had 2 guys with usage rate of 29 or more, so in the same ballpark as Tatum and Brown:

-2022 Warriors (Curry and Klay). Klay's numbers were right around Brown's numbers. Klay with a 29% usage and 16% assist rate and Brown with a 30% usage and 16% assist rate. But then you look at Curry and Tatum and there's a big difference. Curry with a 30% usage rate and 30% assist rate, compared to tatum with a 32% usage rate and a 21% assist rate. Add them up and you have the Warriors duo with a combined 59% usage and 46% assist rate. Compared to Tatum and Brown with a combined 62% usage and 37% assist rate. So you can see, the warriors duo with a much higher assist rate. Also worth noting, is that Klay only played in 32 games that season so probably shouldn't even include him. And Draymond had an insane 32% assist rate, on just a 14% usage rate. Meanwhile, Smart has a 26% assist rate on just a 17% usage rate. If you add all 3 guys up for each team, you've got Warriors with a 73% usage and whopping 78% assist rate, compared to the celtics trio with a 79% usage rate (so a good amount higher than warriors usage rate which is bad for the celtics) and a 63% assist rate (WAY lower than the warriors, which is also bad for the celtics).

-2020 Lakers (LeBron and AD). I think you can get where this is headed. Even though Lebron/AD were comparable in total usage to Tatum/Brown, as you can probably guess, LeBron's assist rate was crazy high, much higher than either Celtics guy. Brown and AD were at a very similar assist rate, but Lebron's assist rate was an insane 49%, compared to Tatum at just 21%. AD being a 29% usage, 16% assist rate is not good (not good to have a guy with 29+ usage and under 20 assist rate), BUT it worked out for that lakers team because a) AD made up for it by being a top 5 defender in the league that season. Obviously, JB isn't anywhere close to being a top 5 defender in the league. AD also made up for being a high usage, low assist guy by being more efficient with his scoring. He had a 61% TS, compared to JB this season with a 58.1% TS. and b) AD was playing with a guy who had a ridiculous 49% assist rate

-2016 Cavs (LeBron and Kyrie). Yeah, same thing again where LeBron's crazy high assist rate comes in...
LeBron (31% usage, 36% assist) + Kyrie (29% usage, 26%) assist for a total of 60% usage, with a 62% assist. If you're gonna have 2 high usage guys, it REALLY helps that their combined assist rate is actually higher than their combined usage rate. Compare that to..
Tatum (32% usage, 21% assist) + Brown (30% usage, 16%) assist for a total of 62% usage, with a 37% assist. So the Cavs duo with a lower combined usage rate, and a WAY higher combined assist rate.

Ok, I'll stop there. You get the idea.

Now, if we just look at flipping Brown for Trae. Let's compare them, and we'll look at rough averages over the last 3 seasons for better accuracy...
JB: 30% usage, 16% assist
Trae: 33% usage, 45% assist

Yes, that assist rate for Trae is not a typo. And he's still just 24 yrs old. The dude had an assist rate of 45% in his 2nd year in the league, when he was only 21! Trae's usage rate has been only slightly higher than JB's, but his assist rate has been basically THREE TIMES more. My god.

How many times have people on here (or on twitter, facebook or in the media) said that the celtics need "a closer" ? As much as Kevin O'Connor is like a clickbait guy, he was talking today about how Tatum hasn't been taking many shots in the 4th quarter in a few playoff games this year, how he's more of a 1A or 1B kind of guy than a true #1, go-to, alpha scorer. Trae solves for that problem, too.

Even if we look at scoring efficiency, Trae has a higher career TS% than Brown, and if we just look at the past 3 seasons combined, Trae's TS% is also slightly higher than JB's.

Trae is also more durable. Last 3 years, Trae has played in 212 games. JB has played in just 191.

Trae is also 2 yrs younger, which means he's got a bigger window for more development. JB will be 27 soon. By age 27, most of the development is done - guys usually peak at 27 or 28. Trae is further from his peak, so could be improving more.

It's not just the ball movement and scoring efficiency. But overall decision making and basketball IQ, on both ends of the floor, Trae is better. JB makes a lot of mistakes (driving into driving lanes that aren't there, questionable shot attempts, doubling on Embiid to leave Harden wide open for the game winning 3 when you're up by 2, etc.

JB has been playing with Tatum for a long time now. We've seen what JB can do in this context. This is probably about as good as he's gonna get. Trae? We've never seen him play alongside a guy anywhere close to Tatum's level. Best player Trae has played with is Dejounte Murray. Not only is Tatum 10x better than Murray, but Murray plays the same freaking position as Trae. Both of those guys want to be PG's. Both Murray and Trae, the best version of themself is playing PG. Having both of them on the same team, makes both of them less effective. Who's the best player Trae has played with, who wasn't playing the same damn position as him? John freaking collins! And Trae took that team (without a 2nd star playing next to him) to the ECF!

It almost makes too much sense. JB is from atlanta. He loves Atlanta. Apparently, there's rumors that he might hate living in Boston. JB could be THE man on the Hawks.

Plus, the Hawks can split up their 2 PG's. Murray can be THE PG there now. And the Hawks get a star wing, which they have lacked for awhile.

And it seems like the Trae in ATL thing has pretty much run its course. There's rumors I'm seeing today about the Lakers discussing a deal right now with ATL to bring Trae to LA.

Salaries don't match, so you'll need the celtics to add another $8 or $9 mil in. Give the Hawks Pritchard and Gallo, IDK. Figure it out.

Of course, that would leave the celtics with way too many PG's (smart, trae, brogdon, white). But whatever. Get rid of Brogdon in a separate deal. Or, somehow find a way to include Brogdon in this deal and send him to his hometown of ATL. IDK, I just know that moving JB for Trae makes this team better in the short and long term.

Just imagine how much easier Tatum's life would be - how much more efficient he would be with Trae's ability to break down a defense, shift a defense. Teams won't be able to load up on Tatum so much or double team him with Trae out there. And Trae will be better, more efficient since team's won't be able to focus so much on shutting him down, teams won't be able to double team him - with Tatum out there at the same time.

Trae's BPM over the last 3 years has been about 4.0. Brown's has been about 2.0. Trae's has been 2x better. Pretty sure Trae's on/off rating has been much better than Brown's as well.

Next postseason, the one after that and the one after that, Tatum and Trae will be age 26 & 25, 27 & 26 and 28 & 27. You put the 2 of them together and put the right pieces around them - we'll win at least 1 championship. I know some people don't like to hear about long window, but when next season starts tatum and Trae will both be 25. You could potentially keep the together for at least 7 or 8 years.

And Tatum/Trae is a duo that actually makes sense to keep together long term, because:
a) they play different positions
b) 1 of them has an insanely high assist rate (Trae), while 1 of them is an all-NBA caliber defender (Tatum). Jb isn't either of those things.
c) they're both lethal scorers - and once they're paired together, their scoring efficiency (which is already good) will get even better
d) You won't have a guy on a supermax contract who is probably not good enough to be on one (JB)
e) You won't have a guy who has said negative things about the city of Boston in the media (JB)

Lastly, we have all these PG's (smart, brogdon, white, pritchard), but none of them are a true floor general, run the show, take charge of the offense, facilitate, bring the ball up the floor. None of them are a guy you feel confident in bringing the ball up the floor late in a close game. Trae is that guy.

Why should Tatum be bringing the ball up the floor and getting us into our offense all the time? And if it's not Tatum bring the ball up, it's often times JB. Why? These guys are wings. We should have a true PG bringing the ball up, and meanwhile Tatum should be running off screens, coming off pin downs, cutting to the basket, getting position in the mid post, etc. Tatum is a wing, not a PG. Since Tatum is not a PG, he's not very good at being a floor general who can get us into our offense - as a result, often times when he does bring the ball up the floor, he ends up holding the ball for too long, dribbles out half the shot clock, makes the wrong read, or gets double teamed 30 feet from the basket (which throws out offense off rhythm). Why? Because he's not a PG!

But if Tatum is not a PG, why does he bring the ball up all the time? IMO, it's a combination of 2 things.
1) Tatum has the best handles on the team
2) Tatum is more assertive, more confident with the ball than our PG's are. Brogdon has good handles but usually appears to be very unsure of what he wants to do with the ball out there. Smart's handles aren't on Tatum's level. Smart has performed better as a guys who will make a really good pass in transition or deeper into the shot clock - rather than act as a true table setter PG who gets us into our offense. White's handles aren't as good as Tatum, and he's also not as confident with the ball as Tatum.

Well guess what? Trae has better handles than Tatum. Trae is top 3 in the league in handles (it's debatable between Trae, Curry and Kyrie). Trae has that ball on a freaking string, man. And Trae is VERY confident with the ball, very confident running the show, being a floor general, getting his team into its offense.

All I know is I looked up every team since 2006 that's won the title and 0 of them had 2 guys with a usage rate of 30+ with an assist rate of under 20. So if not Trae, than perhaps there's another star we could flip Brown for..

[MSTRJMES]

Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Kornet
for
DeRozan
Alex Caruso
Patrick Williams

Works on the trade machine…

[bigfoot_cryptozoology]

Brown & Smart for Trae & Collins works for me and has been mentioned before...

[itrsteve]

The Brown for Trae centered deal makes a decent amount of sense and honestly I'd love it for JB as they can willingly sign that supermax in his hometown.

While we're at it, send Al back for the reunion.

ATL gets
Brown & Horford

BOS gets
Young & Bey (because why not) & Okongwu (salary matching)

[MSTRJMES]

Brown & Smart for Trae & Collins works for me and has been mentioned before...

Trae plays zero defense
Collin’s plays almost no defense

[Celts17Pride]

Trae Young in Boston makes no sense on any level

[Hal14]

Trae Young in Boston makes no sense on any level

I outlined many levels that it makes sense in my post above..

[Celts17Pride]

Trae Young in Boston makes no sense on any level

I outlined many levels that it makes sense in my post above..

Respectively, you’re wrong. Trae Young in Boston makes zero sense

[batabatuta]

I want Trae so bad I wish we could trade JB for him. And maybe get Caruso or Reaves while you are at it.

[zoyathedestroya]

Trae Young in Boston makes no sense on any level

I outlined many levels that it makes sense in my post above..

Respectively, you’re wrong. Trae Young in Boston makes zero sense

Our biggest issue this season (apart from late game offense) is our departure from defensive identity. Trae Young hurts us there even more. As we saw in 2nd half of G4, this team doesn’t really need a true point guard or not even a scoring point (why I never buy that Smart is the problem). They need a true and unwavering commitment to ball movement, pace, and defense. I believe that’s the best version of this team if only they can all buy in.

As to the assertion about two 30%+ usage guys with average assist rates, you are right there. I along with a few other posters didn’t believe JB was worthy of that high usage relative to his playmaking capability esp considering he’s been a 1:1 A/TO guy his entire career. He’s also only been a slightly above average scorer in terms of efficiency. JB should be in the 24-27% average usage rate range.

[chrisab123]

Trae Young in Boston makes no sense on any level

If you put him next to a lockdown defender to hide him it makes a lot of sense. You're never going to mistake him for Ron Artest or Gary Payton but hes only 24. Plenty of time to have him work on his D. You get him and Collins for Jaylen thats a no brainer and I really don't like Young or Collins.

But I wouldn't want Young since it would require Boston to keep Smart. Smart needs to go.

Toronto is the ideal trade partner. Give me Siakam and OG. Brown would resign there too. He'd be a god up in Canada, same fanbase that used to compare DeRozen to Kobe. Imagine what they would do for Browns ego?

[BK_2020]

Hunter and Trae would introduce a weak link in our defense but at the same time shore up the front court by letting Tatum slide up to 3 full time. Hunter is large.

[165bows]

Wonder how they could land 2014 era Paul Millsap.