Trade/Free Agency Thread, part Ocho, 2023-24

[BK_2020]

Also, Jaylen is simply better than Siakam.

Celtics don't need to make their seismic trade this offseason. I know as fans we'd love to see the finished product ASAP. But it could be next offseason. Jaylen/Brogdon/4 1st rd picks for Giannis if he wants out as an example. Just thinking out loud.

I don't think it's clear cut that Jaylen is better.
Siakam is tiers above Jaylen defensively, plus there's just way more value in a guy who has the length and strength to defend up to 5. Jaylen is too weak to defend 4s and too slow to defend 2s. He is one of the least versatile defenders in the league.
Jaylen gives you more volume scoring on better efficiency, but it's arguable that Jaylen's efficiency would plummet if he was playing the lead scorer role on any team, and would absolutely crater if he was playing that role on the Raptors which has pretty much zero creators and awful spacing.
Siakam is a good passer and playmaker. Jaylen is among the league's worst in that particular area.
Jaylen is younger but his aging curve will be worse than Siakam's. Jaylen is significantly smaller, relies on athleticism which has been tapering off pretty noticeably, and Siakam has also been more durable.
Jaylen is looking for a supermax while Siakam wouldn't qualify.

Okay. So, you just answered your own question. Ship Jaylen to Toronto for Siakam and pieces. Sounds like you like Siakams as the better fit. For the record, I do not.

I think we try to get him for less since Toronto seems to be struggling to find takers. Then the team is a veritable superteam for 2023-24 season and the options for 2024 offseason become much more appetizing.

[Hal14]

Interesting. This is just a random Wizards fan - not an reporter/insider so take with a grain of salt. But they don't think Delon Wright is staying with the team.

Read on Twitter

So perhaps a deal where Brogdon goes to the clippers, Wright comes to Boston and Clippers send assets (probably some of the assets they were going to send in the initial Porzingis deal) to washington.

Perhaps that free's up enough cap space so that we then use the Grant TPE to go and get Saddiq Bey.

Afterall, there's rumors that we're still shopping Brogdon and there's rumors that we're interested in trading for Bey..

Swapping out Brogdon and adding on Wright and Bey means we're getting better defensively on the perimeter, we have 1 less injury prone guy where we have to constantly worry about if he's gonna get hurt, if he's gonna be healthy come playoff time, we get deeper and don't even lose any shooting..

As with any suggestion of a Brogdon trade, I return to the question of, who is your playoff closing unit if he goes?

Brogdon was rarely in the closing lineup last year. And when he was he rarely did anything to really move the needle. He even lost us 1 of the games vs Philly with a turnover at the end.

Even if Brogdon stays with the team, the closing lineup is probably white/brown/tatum/Porzingis and either Rob or Al..if we go small, I don't think you lose much (if anything) going from Brogdon to Wright or Bey..

[ddb]

I don't think it's clear cut that Jaylen is better.
Siakam is tiers above Jaylen defensively, plus there's just way more value in a guy who has the length and strength to defend up to 5. Jaylen is too weak to defend 4s and too slow to defend 2s. He is one of the least versatile defenders in the league.
Jaylen gives you more volume scoring on better efficiency, but it's arguable that Jaylen's efficiency would plummet if he was playing the lead scorer role on any team, and would absolutely crater if he was playing that role on the Raptors which has pretty much zero creators and awful spacing.
Siakam is a good passer and playmaker. Jaylen is among the league's worst in that particular area.
Jaylen is younger but his aging curve will be worse than Siakam's. Jaylen is significantly smaller, relies on athleticism which has been tapering off pretty noticeably, and Siakam has also been more durable.
Jaylen is looking for a supermax while Siakam wouldn't qualify.

Okay. So, you just answered your own question. Ship Jaylen to Toronto for Siakam and pieces. Sounds like you like Siakams as the better fit. For the record, I do not.

I think we try to get him for less since Toronto seems to be struggling to find takers. Then the team is a veritable superteam for 2023-24 season and the options for 2024 offseason become much more appetizing.

Raptors are in a funky spot. FVV bails. They resign Poeltl. Schroder signs as stop gap PG. Siakam they aren't sure they want to pay. They were already a middling team. Would they even consider a Brogdon/Timelord/1st for Siakam package? Probably not. Not to mention Masai Ujiri has a reputation as a tough guy to negotiate with. Is it worth rolling the dice of 1-year of Siakam in exchange for Brogdon/Timelord/Filler/ and two first round picks?

I don't really see the two sides as trade partners

[165bows]

I don't think it's clear cut that Jaylen is better.
Siakam is tiers above Jaylen defensively, plus there's just way more value in a guy who has the length and strength to defend up to 5. Jaylen is too weak to defend 4s and too slow to defend 2s. He is one of the least versatile defenders in the league.
Jaylen gives you more volume scoring on better efficiency, but it's arguable that Jaylen's efficiency would plummet if he was playing the lead scorer role on any team, and would absolutely crater if he was playing that role on the Raptors which has pretty much zero creators and awful spacing.
Siakam is a good passer and playmaker. Jaylen is among the league's worst in that particular area.
Jaylen is younger but his aging curve will be worse than Siakam's. Jaylen is significantly smaller, relies on athleticism which has been tapering off pretty noticeably, and Siakam has also been more durable.
Jaylen is looking for a supermax while Siakam wouldn't qualify.

Okay. So, you just answered your own question. Ship Jaylen to Toronto for Siakam and pieces. Sounds like you like Siakams as the better fit. For the record, I do not.

I think we try to get him for less since Toronto seems to be struggling to find takers. Then the team is a veritable superteam for 2023-24 season and the options for 2024 offseason become much more appetizing.

So basically Brogdon/Rob/PP/whatever for Siakam, is that the idea?

Leaves White/Brown/Tatum/Siakam/Zinger to start and Banton/Hauser/Walsh/Brissett/Kornet bench. I mean, works money-wise for one year at least. Pretty darn thin on the bench.
Edit: forgot about Al lol that helps a little bit.

[Hal14]

Okay. So, you just answered your own question. Ship Jaylen to Toronto for Siakam and pieces. Sounds like you like Siakams as the better fit. For the record, I do not.

I think we try to get him for less since Toronto seems to be struggling to find takers. Then the team is a veritable superteam for 2023-24 season and the options for 2024 offseason become much more appetizing.

So basically Brogdon/Rob/PP/whatever for Siakam, is that the idea?

Leaves White/Brown/Tatum/Siakam/Zinger to start and Banton/Hauser/Walsh/Brissett/Kornet bench. I mean, works money-wise for one year at least. Pretty darn thin on the bench.

You're forgetting about Horford, so the bench wouldn't be as thin as you think.

And we'd have 5 open roster spots to sign more free agents (Terence Davis? Griffin? Bazley? Wall?) to shore up the bench. Or possibly make another trade..

[GoCeltics123]

I wonder if Siakam to ATL or IND could be roped into the Grant sign and trade

[165bows]

I think we try to get him for less since Toronto seems to be struggling to find takers. Then the team is a veritable superteam for 2023-24 season and the options for 2024 offseason become much more appetizing.

So basically Brogdon/Rob/PP/whatever for Siakam, is that the idea?

Leaves White/Brown/Tatum/Siakam/Zinger to start and Banton/Hauser/Walsh/Brissett/Kornet bench. I mean, works money-wise for one year at least. Pretty darn thin on the bench.

You're forgetting about Horford, so the bench wouldn't be as thin as you think.

And we'd have 5 open roster spots to sign more free agents (Terence Davis? Griffin? Bazley? Wall?) to shore up the bench. Or possibly make another trade..

Right, edited that back in - forgot about him for a second lol. On second thought keep PP and make the deal Kornet/Champs.

Leaves PP/Banton/Hauser/Brissett/Al. Still needs another PG imo and not many available, esp if Yam is off the table.

[watsonthedragon]

slow day today...

[JaMarco]

No thanks on Siakam. He's in the same boat as Jaylen (sorta) in terms of wanting a max extension. He's entering the last year of his deal. He also is a bit overrated IMO. I can't imagine Brad is involved on that one.

Yea I dont want him either. As you said he is pretty overrated so I'm sure Brad has no interest.

[JaMarco]

Also, Jaylen is simply better than Siakam.

Celtics don't need to make their seismic trade this offseason. I know as fans we'd love to see the finished product ASAP. But it could be next offseason. Jaylen/Brogdon/4 1st rd picks for Giannis if he wants out as an example. Just thinking out loud.

I don't think it's clear cut that Jaylen is better.
Siakam is tiers above Jaylen defensively, plus there's just way more value in a guy who has the length and strength to defend up to 5. Jaylen is too weak to defend 4s and too slow to defend 2s. He is one of the least versatile defenders in the league.
Jaylen gives you more volume scoring on better efficiency, but it's arguable that Jaylen's efficiency would plummet if he was playing the lead scorer role on any team, and would absolutely crater if he was playing that role on the Raptors which has pretty much zero creators and awful spacing.
Siakam is a good passer and playmaker. Jaylen is among the league's worst in that particular area.
Jaylen is younger but his aging curve will be worse than Siakam's. Jaylen is significantly smaller, relies on athleticism which has been tapering off pretty noticeably, and Siakam has also been more durable.
Jaylen is looking for a supermax while Siakam wouldn't qualify.

Where does this universal belief that Siakam is great defensively come from? I see it posted all the time and am willing to be convinced - I just don't see it at all.

He sucks defensively, way undersized for his position.

[GoCeltics123]

Celtics: Bey, 2nd rounders
Mavs: Grant Williams, Clint Capela
Spurs: Bullock, 2030 pick swap
Hawks: Pascal Siakam
Raptors: Hunter, AJ Griffin, 1st rounder(s)

Something like this could work if they loop in the Grant sign and trade

[keevsnick1]

I'm just not sure I see the Siakam fit anymore now that Kristaps is here.

In some ways Siakam is just sort of duplicative of what Tatum/Brown bring to the table already, and another guy who needs the ball in his hand after adding KP seems likely to lead to diminishing returns. He's a guy who is not as good a three point shooter as people think either, his BEST mark in the last three years was 34.4% from three. Also he's going to turn 30 next off season, so a 4-5 year deal for him starts getting into danger territory imo.

I'm not as big an OG Anunoby fan as some, but it seems like he's almost be a better fit. He's a much better spot up shooter (not insane volume, but enough) and can cover the other team's best offensive option basically 1-4 taking defensive pressure away from the Jays. He will turn 27 next off season so a 4-5 year deal is a lot more palatable for him than Siakam I think.

But then again, make OG isn't available. And I'm not sure the C's want to add another salary of Siakam or OG's level long term anyway.

[Hal14]

I don't think it's clear cut that Jaylen is better.
Siakam is tiers above Jaylen defensively, plus there's just way more value in a guy who has the length and strength to defend up to 5. Jaylen is too weak to defend 4s and too slow to defend 2s. He is one of the least versatile defenders in the league.
Jaylen gives you more volume scoring on better efficiency, but it's arguable that Jaylen's efficiency would plummet if he was playing the lead scorer role on any team, and would absolutely crater if he was playing that role on the Raptors which has pretty much zero creators and awful spacing.
Siakam is a good passer and playmaker. Jaylen is among the league's worst in that particular area.
Jaylen is younger but his aging curve will be worse than Siakam's. Jaylen is significantly smaller, relies on athleticism which has been tapering off pretty noticeably, and Siakam has also been more durable.
Jaylen is looking for a supermax while Siakam wouldn't qualify.

Where does this universal belief that Siakam is great defensively come from? I see it posted all the time and am willing to be convinced - I just don't see it at all.

He sucks defensively, way undersized for his position.

Who's undersized for their position, Siakam? He's 6'9.5", with a 7'3" wingspan and a 9' standing reach. That's definitely not undersized for a PF.

[165bows]

I'm just not sure I see the Siakam fit anymore now that Kristaps is here.

In some ways Siakam is just sort of duplicative of what Tatum/Brown bring to the table already, and another guy who needs the ball in his hand after adding KP seems likely to lead to diminishing returns. He's a guy who is not as good a three point shooter as people think either, his BEST mark in the last three years was 34.4% from three. Also he's going to turn 30 next off season, so a 4-5 year deal for him starts getting into danger territory imo.

I'm not as big an OG Anunoby fan as some, but it seems like he's almost be a better fit. He's a much better spot up shooter (not insane volume, but enough) and can cover the other team's best offensive option basically 1-4 taking defensive pressure away from the Jays. He will turn 27 next off season so a 4-5 year deal is a lot more palatable for him than Siakam I think.

But then again, make OG isn't available. And I'm not sure the C's want to add another salary of Siakam or OG's level long term anyway.

Best fit is a high quality combo guard. Basically Brogdon if he wasn't injury-prone and better on defense. Can they trade Brogdon for a younger Brogdon?

[keevsnick1]

I don't think it's clear cut that Jaylen is better.
Siakam is tiers above Jaylen defensively, plus there's just way more value in a guy who has the length and strength to defend up to 5. Jaylen is too weak to defend 4s and too slow to defend 2s. He is one of the least versatile defenders in the league.
Jaylen gives you more volume scoring on better efficiency, but it's arguable that Jaylen's efficiency would plummet if he was playing the lead scorer role on any team, and would absolutely crater if he was playing that role on the Raptors which has pretty much zero creators and awful spacing.
Siakam is a good passer and playmaker. Jaylen is among the league's worst in that particular area.
Jaylen is younger but his aging curve will be worse than Siakam's. Jaylen is significantly smaller, relies on athleticism which has been tapering off pretty noticeably, and Siakam has also been more durable.
Jaylen is looking for a supermax while Siakam wouldn't qualify.

Where does this universal belief that Siakam is great defensively come from? I see it posted all the time and am willing to be convinced - I just don't see it at all.

He sucks defensively, way undersized for his position.

I would not say he's undersized, and I don't think he "sucks" but he is not "tiers above Jaylen Brown" defensively either. My recollection from the few games I watched him was he's fine on bigger guys, not great on small guys. Looking at EPM and RAPTOR defensive metrics they HATED Siakam last year, but Toronto also played without a true center most of the year and that can make players look worse defensively than they actually are. You could also make the case if he went to a team with a smaller offensive role he could devote more energy on the defense end.

[keevsnick1]

I'm just not sure I see the Siakam fit anymore now that Kristaps is here.

In some ways Siakam is just sort of duplicative of what Tatum/Brown bring to the table already, and another guy who needs the ball in his hand after adding KP seems likely to lead to diminishing returns. He's a guy who is not as good a three point shooter as people think either, his BEST mark in the last three years was 34.4% from three. Also he's going to turn 30 next off season, so a 4-5 year deal for him starts getting into danger territory imo.

I'm not as big an OG Anunoby fan as some, but it seems like he's almost be a better fit. He's a much better spot up shooter (not insane volume, but enough) and can cover the other team's best offensive option basically 1-4 taking defensive pressure away from the Jays. He will turn 27 next off season so a 4-5 year deal is a lot more palatable for him than Siakam I think.

But then again, make OG isn't available. And I'm not sure the C's want to add another salary of Siakam or OG's level long term anyway.

Best fit is a high quality combo guard. Basically Brogdon if he wasn't injury-prone and better on defense. Can they trade Brogdon for a younger Brogdon?

To be honest I'm not sure what the best fit is. I'd like a guy with defensive versatility and ability to guard the teams best player like Anunoby, I think that would help given the guys the c's lost. But I also think a three point bomber would be useful. Not just someone who spot up but a movement, deep versatile shooter to stress defenses. Maybe Hauser can be that guy.

[shackles10]

Part 9... https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2308314