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PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023

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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#21 » by Hal14 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:56 pm

Shak_Celts wrote:I don't like what I saw from the guys after hauser and pritch.

Banton and Brissy must be great in practice. Ewww.

Here's the amount of playing time for each player, through 4 games:
Image

Joe talks about what he sees in Banton in this vid at :14 and at 2:14


What I see? He's a secondary ball handler. In situations where he's out there with Pritchard and we have a bench unit lineup of Pritchard/Banton/Hauser/Al/KP, having Banton in the game with that lineup gives us another guard - it gives us some more ball handling. Pritchard in a lineup as the only ball handler is not good. We've even seen a few plays where those 2 guys are out there together and Pritchard will defer to Banton and let Banton bring the ball up and initiate offense - maybe that's to lessen the load on Pritchard so he doesn't have to bring the ball up and initiate the offense every time (especially since Banton is arguably better than Pritchard at handling the ball vs tough defensive pressure, getting it across half court, getting to his spots with the ball in his hands, getting downhill, pressuring the rim, seeing over the top of a defense, etc.). And the other reason why I think sometimes Banton brings the ball up (even when Pritchard is out there) is because Pritchard is a really good shooter, whereas Banton is not a good shooter. So Banton can bring the ball up and be the one facilitating the offense, while Pritchard can be the spot up, catch and shoot guy - which is what he does best.

If we had like Lamar or Brissett in there with that group instead of Banton, now we don't have enough ball handling. Too much pressure on Pritchard to handle the ball and run the offense..and Pritchard not able to be a spot up catch and shoot guy as much if he is running the point.

And if we had Svi in there instead of Banton, well now we don't have as much size and defense on the floor. Perhaps Joe doesn't want to have Pritchard, Hauser and Svi all on the floor together at the same time because it would leave us vulnerable defensively. Also, I think Banton is better at running the point and being a secondary ball handler than Svi. Svi can do it if we're really in a pinch, but the strength of his game on offense is moreso spacing the floor, and just spotting up on the perimeter and out there on the wings and in the corners, being a catch and shoot guy, who can sometimes make moves off the dribble to create a shot and be a solid connective passer out on the perimeter. Banton is better at running PnR, a little more comfortable running the point and initiating actions out on the perimeter - so gives us more ball handling and more of a secondary ball handler than Svi. Plus, Banton gives us more size out there (Banton is 6'9" with a 6'10" wingspan, Svi is about 6'6" with a 6'5" wingspan) and Banton is better defensively too.

TL/DR, Banton is a nice option to throw in there from time to time as a 10th man, when we need a secondary ball handler, in lineups where we only have 1 other guard out there (so only 1 out of Pritchard, Jrue, White).

Plus, Joe has also mentioned "he's young" and "I think he's got a chance to be a really good player" about Banton. So I think they like the idea of giving him some minutes here and there as a 10th man, and developing him into a guy who could potentially move up even higher in the rotation down the road.
Nothing wrong with having a different opinion - as long as it's done respectfully. It'd be lame if we all agreed on everything :)
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#22 » by Memokerobi » Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:13 pm

BK_2020 wrote:
Memokerobi wrote:
steefP2 wrote:I’ll add to whoever is **** on Jaylen; he did have 6 assists. I’m not denying the 4 tovs or that he fell back into old and bad habits at times but I won’t ignore the good either. For every possessions he went 1 v 3 or over dribbled, he had 1-2 where he made quick decisions or good passes. Yeah he got locked up a couple of times, he also blew past those same guys and dunked it or made a quick 3 when given space.


Jaylen's career AST/TO ratio is around 1.1. Usually when he has a 4 turnover game that means he's below 1 AST/TO in that game. If he can dish out 6 assists on nights he's turning the ball over often, I'd be far more willing to live with the TOs. 1.5 AST/TO ratio is not bad and we'd be in a really good spot if he can hit that number over the course of the season


*assists where he throws a bailout pass to a teammate who's well covered but converts the tough shot anyway.


I know its easy and trendy to **** on Jaylen but he actually made good plays with the ball yesterday. I was actually encouraged by how he played two-men games with KP, he will help Jaylen big time. Only one of the 6 assists is the way you described it.

2P - 7:26 Pick and pop with Porzingis for a wide open 3

2P - 4:50: Extra pass to Hauser for wide open 3

2P - 2:47: Extra pass to Pritchard for wide open 3

3P - 5:48: Doubled on the perimeter, pass to Holiday for wide open 3

3P - 5:13: Smothered and throws a bailout pass to Tatum for a well-covered last second 3

3P - 1:11: Pick and roll bounce pass to KP for an open mid range shot
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#23 » by playa-hater » Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:33 pm

Talking about Brown's good asts/decisions and bad turnovers/decisions can be discussed every game. That is not my main concern with him. For me I just don't want him up top initiating and/or dribbling an offense. Off the ball Jaylen >>> on the ball Jaylen for me all day every day.

Coaches need to enforce this. It's that simple for me.
2 things need to go.. my lack of spell check and Joe.. :nod:
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#24 » by Scarletfire81 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:40 pm

When I rewatch Celtics games it’s always surprising how hard we are/were on JB. He doesn’t play nearly as bad we think.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#25 » by Fantaxp7 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:47 pm

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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#26 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:04 pm

Scarletfire81 wrote:When I rewatch Celtics games it’s always surprising how hard we are/were on JB. He doesn’t play nearly as bad we think.

In this case, I'm being hard on the coaches. JB is who he is at this point (some fans are more optimistic he'll improve but I think that would be more a function of a diversified, more organized offensive system). Coaches should be able to put him in an optimal role, not only for my sanity but for the betterment of the team. Him initiating up top is a 50/50 proposition (might be worse against tougher defenses) because of how slow he processes things and how poor he sees the floor sometimes. When you have better initiators/playmakers on the floor with him, why push the JB option? Him coming off curls, setting screens and slipping or flaring for threes, running the floor for transition scores, backcutting? Love it! He's a skilled scorer. Efficiency (and positive impact) can improve with better use imo.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#27 » by Hal14 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:05 pm

playa-hater wrote:Talking about Brown's good asts/decisions and bad turnovers/decisions can be discussed every game. That is not my main concern with him. For me I just don't want him up top initiating and/or dribbling an offense. Off the ball Jaylen >>> on the ball Jaylen for me all day every day.

Coaches need to enforce this. It's that simple for me.

JB is not Klay Thompson. He's not just some off ball, catch and shoot Joe Harris, Duncan Robinson, Sam Hauser type of guy.

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Does he sometimes get tunnel vision and/or make poor decisions with the ball? Yes, every player does. No player is perfect. But it is a huge weapon for us to have 2 wings on the same team who can handle the ball, create their own shot, get to the rim, shoot 3's and both have good size and athleticism.
Nothing wrong with having a different opinion - as long as it's done respectfully. It'd be lame if we all agreed on everything :)
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#28 » by bigfoot_cryptozoology » Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:26 pm

More Thoughts On More Thoughts

- This season's Celtics team is like a turbocharged version of last season's team. Oh, they are definitely better,
with a few of the same weaknesses: JB, TOs, Joe The Vengeful Angel Of Basketball Coaching Death Mazzulla.

- This is the season of Angry Al. Look at things from his perspective. He does the Celtics a Big Solid by signing a
ridiculously cheap contract and now his name is mentioned in trade rumors over the Summer, and he might be dealt.
But he survives that, and then, he's booted from the starting lineup. No wonder, he hasn't been smiling all pre-season long.
Celtics might have to re-structure his deal somewhat by adding another year at a more representational NBA rate. If this is
the season to keep everyone happy and extended, you might as well do the same for Al.

- And also Hauser. I think after the season, they can sign him to a new deal and they really should, before
he becomes a very sought after free agent.

- Same old, same old: We have met the TOs and they are us!
13 TOs by the starters, none by the bench. They have learned nothing from last season.

- Raptors Kept Scottie Barnes Off Limits In Trade Talks For Damian Lillard, Kevin Durant
Happy wallowing in mediocrity, Boys, for your hero Scottie!
I might not have dealt Barnes for Lillard, but for Durant? Of course you do that.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#29 » by fallguy » Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:37 pm

Banton is trash.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#30 » by fallguy » Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:37 pm

Missed the Knicks game but saw the highlights and they ran Sam Hauser off a staggered screen for an open three and this is everything I've ever wanted in life.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#31 » by bigfoot_cryptozoology » Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:44 pm

Memokerobi wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:
Memokerobi wrote:
Jaylen's career AST/TO ratio is around 1.1. Usually when he has a 4 turnover game that means he's below 1 AST/TO in that game. If he can dish out 6 assists on nights he's turning the ball over often, I'd be far more willing to live with the TOs. 1.5 AST/TO ratio is not bad and we'd be in a really good spot if he can hit that number over the course of the season


*assists where he throws a bailout pass to a teammate who's well covered but converts the tough shot anyway.


I know its easy and trendy to **** on Jaylen but he actually made good plays with the ball yesterday. I was actually encouraged by how he played two-men games with KP, he will help Jaylen big time. Only one of the 6 assists is the way you described it.

2P - 7:26 Pick and pop with Porzingis for a wide open 3

2P - 4:50: Extra pass to Hauser for wide open 3

2P - 2:47: Extra pass to Pritchard for wide open 3

3P - 5:48: Doubled on the perimeter, pass to Holiday for wide open 3

3P - 5:13: Smothered and throws a bailout pass to Tatum for a well-covered last second 3

3P - 1:11: Pick and roll bounce pass to KP for an open mid range shot



Seemed like they played better when he was off the court as his plus/minus was -1,
compared to Horford: +17, PP and KP at +14, Hauser +10.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#32 » by BK_2020 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:47 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:When you have better initiators/playmakers on the floor with him, why push the JB option? Him coming off curls, setting screens and slipping or flaring for threes, running the floor for transition scores, backcutting? Love it! He's a skilled scorer. Efficiency (and positive impact) can improve with better use imo.

Because he's worse at off-ball movement than he is with the ball. He can get you the occasional backdoor or curl off a set play but off-ball play requires greater, not less, ability to read the floor, process information on the fly, and improvise. Jaylen's not going to be a different player just because Joe Mazzulla tells him to be Reggie Miller.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#33 » by Hal14 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:51 pm

bigfoot_cryptozoology wrote:
Memokerobi wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:
*assists where he throws a bailout pass to a teammate who's well covered but converts the tough shot anyway.


I know its easy and trendy to **** on Jaylen but he actually made good plays with the ball yesterday. I was actually encouraged by how he played two-men games with KP, he will help Jaylen big time. Only one of the 6 assists is the way you described it.

2P - 7:26 Pick and pop with Porzingis for a wide open 3

2P - 4:50: Extra pass to Hauser for wide open 3

2P - 2:47: Extra pass to Pritchard for wide open 3

3P - 5:48: Doubled on the perimeter, pass to Holiday for wide open 3

3P - 5:13: Smothered and throws a bailout pass to Tatum for a well-covered last second 3

3P - 1:11: Pick and roll bounce pass to KP for an open mid range shot



Seemed like they played better when he was off the court as his plus/minus was -1,
compared to Horford: +17, PP and KP at +14, Hauser +10.

+/- means very little when it's only a 1 game sample size.
Nothing wrong with having a different opinion - as long as it's done respectfully. It'd be lame if we all agreed on everything :)
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#34 » by Parliament10 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:19 pm

Preseason is too short, and there's not enough Games.
Need to add a week and a half, and go back to at least 8 Games; maybe more.

The ratio of Preseason to Regular Season Time & Games, is significantly less than the other 4 Major Sports.
Players need this time to get up to speed, and avoid injuries. Also, to gauge the Backup and Fringe Players.

As well, we need to jump to 5 x Two-Players (as planned).
Add another Round or two to the Draft, to select said Two-Ways.
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Nothing is given."

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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#35 » by bigfoot_cryptozoology » Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:41 pm

Hal14 wrote:
bigfoot_cryptozoology wrote:
Memokerobi wrote:
I know its easy and trendy to **** on Jaylen but he actually made good plays with the ball yesterday. I was actually encouraged by how he played two-men games with KP, he will help Jaylen big time. Only one of the 6 assists is the way you described it.

2P - 7:26 Pick and pop with Porzingis for a wide open 3

2P - 4:50: Extra pass to Hauser for wide open 3

2P - 2:47: Extra pass to Pritchard for wide open 3

3P - 5:48: Doubled on the perimeter, pass to Holiday for wide open 3

3P - 5:13: Smothered and throws a bailout pass to Tatum for a well-covered last second 3

3P - 1:11: Pick and roll bounce pass to KP for an open mid range shot



Seemed like they played better when he was off the court as his plus/minus was -1,
compared to Horford: +17, PP and KP at +14, Hauser +10.

+/- means very little when it's only a 1 game sample size.


Well, Hal, it was much more the eye test than the plus/minus, but the plus/minus did back up the eye test.
I'm not even a Brown hater, but he seems like not a great fit with this current iteration of Celtics.

I am however a Smart hater, and other than TOs, you could sense right away that Holiday is a better fit than Smart.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#36 » by hugepatsfan » Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:14 pm

I think Banton is playing so much because he's a relative unknown. Guys like Svi/Stevens/Brissett are, IMO, relatively known quantities. They don't really project as guys who have room to grow or are still "finding themselves". Svi maybe has some playmaking/ball handling chops that are unexplored, but realistically he's not good enough that you're ever going to ask him to do it much. Stevens/Brissett are either hitting their open 3s and thus able to play or they're not and have to be benched. You kind of know that going in.

Banton still seems to have more development in him and a unique style of play. So you need on-court time to actually assess what he can do now, what he just flat out can't do now, and what he can't do but will be able to maybe develop. And you have to assess if he's currently good enough to rely on if you need him in the rotation and if not, can you give him a roster spot. You have to see which type of players he compliments and/or bring out the best in him.

It's not like we have 20 players for 15 spots and it's a real competition for who makes it. We have 15 NBA guys for 15 spots, plus Queta and Davison on the 2-ways. I don't get the sense anyone's actual roster spot is in question. We know the top 6. I have Pritchard and Hauser as the guys they like for playing time and are still trying to expand their games to some degree. Then I have Kornet/Gabriel/Stevens/Brissett/Svi as guys who we just know realistically what to expect. What they can and cannot do seems established. Walsh is a rookie they probably feel needs to be brought along slowly in year 1, at least to start. Banton is the one guy who's still a question mark amongst the non-core players, as to what he can and can't be relied on for this year.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#37 » by Hal14 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:53 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:I think Banton is playing so much because he's a relative unknown. Guys like Svi/Stevens/Brissett are, IMO, relatively known quantities. They don't really project as guys who have room to grow or are still "finding themselves". Svi maybe has some playmaking/ball handling chops that are unexplored, but realistically he's not good enough that you're ever going to ask him to do it much. Stevens/Brissett are either hitting their open 3s and thus able to play or they're not and have to be benched. You kind of know that going in.

Banton still seems to have more development in him and a unique style of play. So you need on-court time to actually assess what he can do now, what he just flat out can't do now, and what he can't do but will be able to maybe develop. And you have to assess if he's currently good enough to rely on if you need him in the rotation and if not, can you give him a roster spot. You have to see which type of players he compliments and/or bring out the best in him.

It's not like we have 20 players for 15 spots and it's a real competition for who makes it. We have 15 NBA guys for 15 spots, plus Queta and Davison on the 2-ways. I don't get the sense anyone's actual roster spot is in question. We know the top 6. I have Pritchard and Hauser as the guys they like for playing time and are still trying to expand their games to some degree. Then I have Kornet/Gabriel/Stevens/Brissett/Svi as guys who we just know realistically what to expect. What they can and cannot do seems established. Walsh is a rookie they probably feel needs to be brought along slowly in year 1, at least to start. Banton is the one guy who's still a question mark amongst the non-core players, as to what he can and can't be relied on for this year.

It's possible.

Or he's getting minutes because of the stuff I posted further up on the page, which included quotes by Mazzulla himself. Or a little bit of both.

Perhaps he's earning the playing time that he has gotten. MeanGeraldGreen/Comedian posted a couple weeks ago that he heard from multiple reporters who cover the team that Banton has been really impressing during practice.

Also, it's not like Banton is this completely random unknown guy who got shipped in from Bulgaria the day before training camp, with 0 games of NBA experience. We've seen him the past 2 seasons in Toronto. We've seen film on him from when he was in college (and played at Nebraska for Fred Hoiberg, who Brad has been tied to in the past a couple of times so they know each other well). Brad also said that our staff often starts scouting guys when they're in HS. We signed Banton right in the beginning of free agency. By all accounts, he's been working out with the team pretty much all summer, he was one of the first guys in to the facility for pre-training camp workouts. I don't think he's some mystery man - at least not to the Celtics coaching staff and front office.

It's not like the decided to experiment for 1 or 2 games in preseason by giving him some minutes. He's gotten good minutes in all 4 preseason games - more mins than anyone, other than Pritchard and Hauser. I think he is genuinely 10th on the depth chart, at the moment - especially when factoring in the comments Mazzulla made about him, where he has gone into specific details about why he likes him as a player and why he's getting minutes - and where Joe has said that he think Banton can be a really good player for us.
Nothing wrong with having a different opinion - as long as it's done respectfully. It'd be lame if we all agreed on everything :)
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#38 » by KillahGhostface » Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:57 pm

Celtics going to slash the Hornets.

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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#39 » by Bill Lumbergh » Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:00 pm

Even though Stevens didn't play last night, and maybe hasn't played all that much this preseason, I want him to make the squad. Though he's not quite as thick as Grant (and can't shoot the 3 like Grant), I expect he'll play a similar role defensively. He's a strong, quick dude who moves his feet well. I think he'll be put on some of the league's best 3s/4s a good bit. Okay, I'll just say it, I don't expect him to shut down someone like Giannis, but I think he'll be our best option to try to slow him down.
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Re: PRESEASON Game Thread – Celtics @ Hornets, 7:00PM, Thurs, Oct. 19, 2023 

Post#40 » by KillahGhostface » Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:10 pm

NuckyPowell wrote:Even though Stevens didn't play last night, and maybe hasn't played all that much this preseason, I want him to make the squad. Though he's not quite as thick as Grant (and can't shoot the 3 like Grant), I expect he'll play a similar role defensively. He's a strong, quick dude who moves his feet well. I think he'll be put on some of the league's best 3s/4s a good bit. Okay, I'll just say it, I don't expect him to shut down someone like Giannis, but I think he'll be our best option to try to slow him down.


Stevens a lock, I’d think.

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