Who is the 3rd best Celtic of all time?

JahReid · Post #21 » by **JahReid** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 2:06 am

I'd have to be old enough to have witnessed all those games over the years. Even Red hasn't done that. It can be debated who the third best player ever on the Celtics was but it's all a matter of set and setting as well. The Celtics have about a dozen people who could be considered third best? or the biggest part of the Celtic family? Or Whatever. It's hard to quantify players over a wide range of time. There are just great players, and the Celtics have had more than their share over the years.

Cyclical · Post #22 » by **Cyclical** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 4:02 am

To me the more interesting question is who's number 4. Hondo should be in the top 3 no matter how you arrange them. The fact that he came off the bench was due to strategy, not talent level. The man was a beast.

Jimmy103 · Post #23 » by **Jimmy103** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 4:09 am

Too soon for a Kevin Garnett mention?

Al n' Perk No Layups! · Post #24 » by **Al n' Perk No Layups!** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 4:24 am

Jimmy103 wrote:Too soon for a Kevin Garnett mention?

I hope that's a joke.

Jimmy103 · Post #25 » by **Jimmy103** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 4:43 am

Al n' Perk No Layups! wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I hope that's a joke.

Hahaha yea it is...I was kinda worried people would take it seriously.

Fencer reregistered · Post #26 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 4:45 am

People are being a little too definitive here.

I don't see how you can take a guy like Cowens, who actually did win a league MVP award, and say he's not even in the discussion w/ Hondo, who in the same era didn't win one.

Ditto, if Garnett plays at this level for a few seasons, instead of just a few months, he'll be in the conversation too.

wigglestrue · Post #27 » by **wigglestrue** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 4:53 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:People are being a little too definitive here.

I don't see how you can take a guy like Cowens, who actually did win a league MVP award, and say he's not even in the discussion w/ Hondo, who in the same era didn't win one.

Ditto, if Garnett plays at this level for a few seasons, instead of just a few months, he'll be in the conversation too.

I give up.

Jimmy103 · Post #28 » by **Jimmy103** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 4:54 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:Ditto, if Garnett plays at this level for a few seasons, instead of just a few months, he'll be in the conversation too.

I agree, it'd take AT LEAST 4-5 MVP level years to enter the discussion.

Post #29 » by **sully00** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 6:17 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:People are being a little too definitive here.

I don't see how you can take a guy like Cowens, who actually did win a league MVP award, and say he's not even in the discussion w/ Hondo, who in the same era didn't win one.

Ditto, if Garnett plays at this level for a few seasons, instead of just a few months, he'll be in the conversation too.

Dave Cowens was a hurricane, John Havlicek was the Northeast Wind. Cowens was great but his career was 10 years long, he played with Havlicek but to say he was in the same era is just not seeing the forest for the trees. Cowens was in elementary school when Hondo's career started. The only real comparison in sports to Hondo is Yogi Berra, I don't think any other player has done so much, in so many ways, for so long, and so successfully for one team in the history of sports.

AWalkerREMIX · Post #30 » by **AWalkerREMIX** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 7:52 am

Havlicek, easily.

Point forward · Post #31 » by **Point forward** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 9:30 am

This cries out for a PC board comparison "Hondo or Cooz"?

I also like Hondo, but I am surprised how much he seems to overshadow a guy like McHale, and that some ppl would vote him over Bird!

jfs1000d · Post #32 » by **jfs1000d** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 2:08 pm

Point forward wrote:I see your point, but Bird was a starter all his career while Hondo was "only" a very good sixth man in his early years. Also, 3 MVPs vs 0 MVPs don't lie. Referring to Cousy, he was THE playmaker of his generation: NO ONE has won eight consecutive assists titles. I don't care if he could not shoot or defend, he was a revolution.

But I can def see why you would put Hondo as high as #2. The guy was a monster on O and D, and ran marathons on the hardwood w/o breaking a sweat.

Bird is No. 3. Hondo No. 2.

The truth is, these top3 are interchangeable.

After that? I would go Cousy then everyone else.

BrokenLeftyJumper · Post #33 » by **BrokenLeftyJumper** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 2:15 pm

Rajon Rondo

captain_cheapseats · Post #34 » by **captain_cheapseats** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 3:06 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:I don't see how you can take a guy like Cowens, who actually did win a league MVP award, and say he's not even in the discussion

Because he wasn't able to maintain that level of excellence for very long relative to the other guys being mentioned. Though I do think if the question were "just looking at their best 3 seasons, not their entire careers, who are the three best Celtics of all time" then Cowens would be in the discussion. In fact he might even be #2 using that criteria. But over the course of a full career, it's just impossible to argue against Hondo.

Either way though, it's nice to see the guys from the mid '70's Celtic teams getting some love. IMO those teams are easily the most underrated of all-time, in large part because Hondo was injured during the '73 playoffs costing them a shot at winning 3 chips instead of 2. But anyway, I'd put the 1974 team right up there with any of the other teams typically mentioned in the discussion of all-time greatest teams.

elrod enchilada · Post #35 » by **elrod enchilada** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 3:42 pm

I love Hondo. he had a brilliant career. Because of his defensive genius and the nature of the Celtics in the 1960s, statistics do insufficent justice to his career.

If Cousy had played his career from 1988-2001, instead of 1950-63, we might be debating whether he should be 1 or 2, not 3.

I love Kevin McHale, but if his career had been in the 50s and 60s we would not even be mentioning his name. He had one truly great season, 86-87. Russ, Bird, Hondo, Cousy and Cowens all had several.

In the final analysis, winning titles is what it is all about. Dave Cowens was the best player on two NBA championship teams. (No Dave Cowens and the Cs are a 48-34 team those years, if that.) The only other people on earth who can make that claim:

George Mikan
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isiah Thomas
Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal

Cowens may have only played for a decade, but Sandy Koufax only pitched at his peak for five years.

Cowens got samdwiched between Russ and Bird so he is neglected. For any other NBA franchise a player of his caliber would be considered a God.

Case closed. He is number 3. Nolo contendre.

TheSheriff · Post #36 » by **TheSheriff** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 7:27 pm

It is, without a doubt, Hondo. Great defensive player, great offensive player. Probably should have won multiple MVPS.

Al n' Perk No Layups! · Post #37 » by **Al n' Perk No Layups!** » Fri Feb 1, 2008 7:33 pm

BrokenLeftyJumper wrote:Rajon Rondo

Scal, he's got great intangibles and red hair. He turned the second worst team in the league into the best.

Jammer · Post #38 » by **Jammer** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 1:11 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:People are being a little too definitive here.

I don't see how you can take a guy like Cowens, who actually did win a league MVP award, and say he's not even in the discussion w/ Hondo, who in the same era didn't win one.

Ditto, if Garnett plays at this level for a few seasons, instead of just a few months, he'll be in the conversation too.

Look, Havlicek's best two season's Lew Alcindor/Kareem Abdul Jabbar dominated.

Havlicek was 28.9 ppg, 9 rpg, 7.5 apg
and 27.5 ppg, 8.2 rpg and another 7.5 apg.

The next year, when the Celtics won 68 games, the Players (who did the voting) felt MVP had to go to a Celtics, instead of Jabbar.

Cowens average his first 8 seasons of 19 ppg, 15 ppg and 4 apg were a little better than what John Havlicek managed at age 33.

But I'll say this much Fencer, I do agree with you in principle.
Cowens is in my top 6 six Celtics of All-Time.

He's obviously ahead of McHale, who had maybe two good seasons, and Parish, who was a consistent 17 ppg, 11 rpg without the range Cowens had on his jump shot.

NickHexum · Post #39 » by **NickHexum** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 1:54 am

Heinsohn is #5

wigglestrue · Post #40 » by **wigglestrue** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 2:12 am

Cowens may have only played for a decade, but Sandy Koufax only pitched at his peak for five years.

Cowens got samdwiched between Russ and Bird so he is neglected. For any other NBA franchise a player of his caliber would be considered a God.

Case closed. He is number 3. Nolo contendre.

Elrod, this is one of those rare times when you are wrong.
And you are really, really wrong here.

John Havlicek is one of the 20-25 greatest players in NBA history.
Cousy is also in that top 20-25 of all time.

Where is Cowens? Somewhere in the 30's or 40's.

No Celtic fan should be under the impression that Cowens was a greater player than Havlicek, and for such an intelligent one as you to make that claim...it's just bad, dude. Was he, like, your personal favorite? That would be your only excuse.