Around the NBA Thread: 2015-16 (2.0)

[bigboi]

It has to do with

1) in terms of style, he is the closest to Jordan we will see for a long time. A poor man's Jordan for sure but a lot of people aren't basketball savvy enough to spot the clear differences. The NBA desperately wanted the next Jordan and it obviously is better if that player is in the LA market.
2) LA market and all of the hype that goes along with it.
3) Other better players(Duncan/KG) of the past 20 years, tougher for fans to identify with since they are 7ft tall and in the case of Durant not extroverted.
4) probably a bunch of other factors that I can't even think of.

KG has zero argument for being better. Duncan can be seen as better, but there are arguments that could go in Kobe's favor as well

Please. 2004 is a HUGE argument. When KG can win/contend with the junk he played with that is a huge argument.

The advanced stats favor KG as well. How many championships would KG have had if he played with Shaq and then Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest.

KG played with junk for most of his career until he arrived in Boston in 2008.

KG never contended. What are you talking about? He disappointed year after year especially in the playoffs. You act like Kobe didn't play with trash as well. Advanced stats favor KG, ok your point? KG's obviously a better defensive player but Kobe is a much better offensive player, it isn't even funny. Plus Kobe has been better in the playoffs. KG had absolutely mediocre efficiency for a big man and could never really take the role as a first option scorer. You don't have a concrete argument at all and its based around hypotheticals. Would KG be able to make all the clutch shots that Kobe did with Shaq? Would he be able to have Kobe's playoff performances? Bynum was always injured and you should know that as Celtics fan. Artest wasn't even that good. Also Lakers had the best record in the West before Gasol even got there. So your argument makes zero sense because the Celtics as a team were more stacked than the Lakers in the later years, but certain factors prevented them from winning multiple titles. Also even if you want to do a hypothetical, there's zero indication that KG would be able to put up a performance like 08-09 Kobe in the playoffs who completely decimated the West

I also wanted to address the casual fan comment as well. So you mean to tell me that the majority of players in the league acknowledge Kobe as arguably the best (most think he's this generation's Jordan) of this past generation, but somehow they're wrong, but you're right even though they played against him and with him. I'm trying to understand that logic. You can't really say it's bias either because according to realgm, Kobe is a prick that no one likes.

[galipeautim]

The first round in the West is going to be so boring. Huge disparity between the top 4 and bottom 4 seeds - Memphis and Houston have been disaster areas, Dallas and Portland are massively flawed.

Dallas and Portland could at-least take the series 6 games. LAC hasn't yet learned how to play their best with Griffin. Dallas is never an easy out. Memphis will get swept and Houston might be able to take a home game.

[galipeautim]

KG has zero argument for being better. Duncan can be seen as better, but there are arguments that could go in Kobe's favor as well

Please. 2004 is a HUGE argument. When KG can win/contend with the junk he played with that is a huge argument.

The advanced stats favor KG as well. How many championships would KG have had if he played with Shaq and then Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest.

KG played with junk for most of his career until he arrived in Boston in 2008.

KG never contended. What are you talking about? He disappointed year after year especially in the playoffs. You act like Kobe didn't play with trash as well. Advanced stats favor KG, ok your point? KG's obviously a better defensive player but Kobe is a much better offensive player, it isn't even funny. Plus Kobe has been better in the playoffs. KG had absolutely mediocre efficiency for a big man and could never really take the role as a first option scorer. You don't have a concrete argument at all and its based around hypotheticals. Would KG be able to make all the clutch shots that Kobe did with Shaq? Would he be able to have Kobe's playoff performances? Bynum was always injured and you should know that as Celtics fan. Artest wasn't even that good. Also Lakers had the best record in the West before Gasol even got there. So your argument makes zero sense because the Celtics as a team were more stacked than the Lakers in the later years, but certain factors prevented them from winning multiple titles. Also even if you want to do a hypothetical, there's zero indication that KG would be able to put up a performance like 08-09 Kobe in the playoffs who completely decimated the West

I also wanted to address the casual fan comment as well. So you mean to tell me that the majority of players in the league acknowledge Kobe as arguably the best (most think he's this generation's Jordan) of this past generation, but somehow they're wrong, but you're right even though they played against him and with him. I'm trying to understand that logic. You can't really say it's bias either because according to realgm, Kobe is a prick that no one likes.

The Lakers teams that went to the championship were stacked. He wasn't able to win one without Gasol or O'Neal (both in their prime). No blame on Kobe (some of those teams were downright awful), but Lebron has done more with less (albeit in the EC). The KG comment is ludicrous. I love KG, but you can't claim that 2004 team was trash. That team had Sprewell, Billups and Szczerbiak. That's 3 teammates that were at or near an all-star level. I would argue they were the most talented team in the West that year.

[Slartibartfast]

The first round in the West is going to be so boring. Huge disparity between the top 4 and bottom 4 seeds - Memphis and Houston have been disaster areas, Dallas and Portland are massively flawed.

Dallas and Portland could at-least take the series 6 games. LAC hasn't yet learned how to play their best with Griffin. Dallas is never an easy out. Memphis will get swept and Houston might be able to take a home game.

Look at the MOVs for these teams. GSW/SAS/OKC the top 3 teams in the league. Hou/Mem/Dal the 15th/20th/16th respectively. It'd be like us going up against the Timberwolves.

I know hot streaks happen, but these are huge disparities going in. The math suggest massacres for everybody but maybe Portland.

[2Mas]

Please. 2004 is a HUGE argument. When KG can win/contend with the junk he played with that is a huge argument.

The advanced stats favor KG as well. How many championships would KG have had if he played with Shaq and then Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest.

KG played with junk for most of his career until he arrived in Boston in 2008.

KG never contended. What are you talking about? He disappointed year after year especially in the playoffs. You act like Kobe didn't play with trash as well. Advanced stats favor KG, ok your point? KG's obviously a better defensive player but Kobe is a much better offensive player, it isn't even funny. Plus Kobe has been better in the playoffs. KG had absolutely mediocre efficiency for a big man and could never really take the role as a first option scorer. You don't have a concrete argument at all and its based around hypotheticals. Would KG be able to make all the clutch shots that Kobe did with Shaq? Would he be able to have Kobe's playoff performances? Bynum was always injured and you should know that as Celtics fan. Artest wasn't even that good. Also Lakers had the best record in the West before Gasol even got there. So your argument makes zero sense because the Celtics as a team were more stacked than the Lakers in the later years, but certain factors prevented them from winning multiple titles. Also even if you want to do a hypothetical, there's zero indication that KG would be able to put up a performance like 08-09 Kobe in the playoffs who completely decimated the West

I also wanted to address the casual fan comment as well. So you mean to tell me that the majority of players in the league acknowledge Kobe as arguably the best (most think he's this generation's Jordan) of this past generation, but somehow they're wrong, but you're right even though they played against him and with him. I'm trying to understand that logic. You can't really say it's bias either because according to realgm, Kobe is a prick that no one likes.

The Lakers teams that went to the championship were stacked. He wasn't able to win one without Gasol or O'Neal (both in their prime). No blame on Kobe (some of those teams were downright awful), but Lebron has done more with less (albeit in the EC). The KG comment is ludicrous. I love KG, but you can't claim that 2004 team was trash. That team had Sprewell, Billups and Szczerbiak. That's 3 teammates that were at or near an all-star level. I would argue they were the most talented team in the West that year.

Spree was great that year. Billups was in Detroit (won a ring?). It was Cassell who was also very good that year. Wally 1 wasn't very good. & 2- he was hurt (missed half the season & played 24mpg off the bench).

But yes - KG had a stacked team that year. Hence why they were 58-24 & 1st in the west. & WOULDA beat BOTH LAL & DET in the WCF & Finals if Cassell could play in the WCF, or even if Tory Hudson (our 6th man) wasn't hurt, we woulda won. But we hada play scrub Derrick Martin (3rd stringer) & Fred Hoiberg as the pg. Ultimately falling to them in 6 games despite KG & Spree holding *** down.

But then the following year - injuries, contracts (spree's infamous feed my family) & Coaching issues led them to miss the playoffs altogether.

So YES - Use KG's 1 year with actual players & a WCF lost to Kobe Shaq Payton Malone in Minny & compare it to the coaching & Players Kobe played with.

I don't think KG was better than Kobe. I just think it's KG's situation was complete BS & he'd go down much higher on everyone's all time list if he had a decent org. something that Kobe & Tim Duncan were groomed in.

[ConstableGeneva]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/status/720683692545413120[/tweet]

[galipeautim]

The first round in the West is going to be so boring. Huge disparity between the top 4 and bottom 4 seeds - Memphis and Houston have been disaster areas, Dallas and Portland are massively flawed.

Dallas and Portland could at-least take the series 6 games. LAC hasn't yet learned how to play their best with Griffin. Dallas is never an easy out. Memphis will get swept and Houston might be able to take a home game.

Look at the MOVs for these teams. GSW/SAS/OKC the top 3 teams in the league. Hou/Mem/Dal the 15th/20th/16th respectively. It'd be like us going up against the Timberwolves.

I know hot streaks happen, but these are huge disparities going in. The math suggest massacres for everybody but maybe Portland.

538 uses a purely mathematical approach to decide the likely outcome of the games. They give Dallas a 40%+ chance of winning each home game and Portland a 55% chance of winning each home game. So when I say I think they can push the series to 6 games that is entirely realistic. The math also gives Houston a 1/3 chance of winning each home game. Therefore a 5 game series is the most likely outcome of the GS/Houston Series. Everything about what I said is entirely realistic. Feel free to believe these series' will all be sweeps, but know that you are defying statistics in believing that.

[2Mas]

GSW in 5
SAS in 4
OKC in 5
LAC in 6

CLE in 6
TOR in 5
MIA in 5
BOS in 6

[ConstableGeneva]

GSW in 5
SAS in 4
OKC in 5
LAC in 6

CLE in 6
TOR in 5
MIA in 5
BOS in 6

Same except I have CHA in 6.

[Slartibartfast]

Dallas and Portland could at-least take the series 6 games. LAC hasn't yet learned how to play their best with Griffin. Dallas is never an easy out. Memphis will get swept and Houston might be able to take a home game.

Look at the MOVs for these teams. GSW/SAS/OKC the top 3 teams in the league. Hou/Mem/Dal the 15th/20th/16th respectively. It'd be like us going up against the Timberwolves.

I know hot streaks happen, but these are huge disparities going in. The math suggest massacres for everybody but maybe Portland.

538 uses a purely mathematical approach to decide the likely outcome of the games. They give Dallas a 40%+ chance of winning each home game and Portland a 55% chance of winning each home game. So when I say I think they can push the series to 6 games that is entirely realistic. The math also gives Houston a 1/3 chance of winning each home game. Therefore a 5 game series is the most likely outcome of the GS/Houston Series. Everything about what I said is entirely realistic. Feel free to believe these series' will all be sweeps, but know that you are defying statistics in believing that.

I never predicted all sweeps; I said they'd be boring and one sided. I think I am guilty of talking past you a bit - I'm not saying it's unrealistic that Dallas might be able to push it to 6 games, I'm just saying I don't think it will be remotely competitive even if they manage to squeak out a win or even two on their homecourt. There's a huge disparity between these teams.

[Tyakack]

Id be shocked if the clev series goes beyond 5.

[soxfan2003]

MN was hardly stacked in 2004. As someone else mentioned, Billups wasn't on the team and Billups obviously didn't full develop until he went to Detroit. I watched Sprewell both in GS and NY and the version KG played with was 33 years old and only had 1 more year left in his entire career after that year. Sprewell had a PER of under 15 with MN that year and a TS% below 50%.

The whole notion that MN was stacked in 2004 is truly absurd unless any team with KG on it is stacked. They were a non playoff team/bad lottery team outside of KG. I like Cassell and he was always very good to great on offense but he was also older and injured in that Lakers series. Cassel was over 35.5 years old to start the playoffs and actually had his only all-star season that year thanks to playing with KG.

Imagine facing Shaq/Kobe and you have to do basically everything including bring the ball up at times since players including at the PG position are hurt.

KG was epic in 2004. Yes, KG lost in the playoffs that year to Shaq and Kobe. KG was playing without 34 year old Cassel for about half that series.

I remember the Lakers doubling KG in that series when KG, a monster on defense, didn't even have the ball. MN was way overmatched but KG deserved to be MVP that year and held up well in the playoffs considering the context. Remember PP alone against Indiana. That is pretty much KG was facing in MN quite often and especially in that series because of the injuries.

[soxfan2003]

KG has zero argument for being better. Duncan can be seen as better, but there are arguments that could go in Kobe's favor as well

Please. 2004 is a HUGE argument. When KG can win/contend with the junk he played with that is a huge argument.

The advanced stats favor KG as well. How many championships would KG have had if he played with Shaq and then Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest.

KG played with junk for most of his career until he arrived in Boston in 2008.

KG never contended. What are you talking about? He disappointed year after year especially in the playoffs. You act like Kobe didn't play with trash as well. Advanced stats favor KG, ok your point? KG's obviously a better defensive player but Kobe is a much better offensive player, it isn't even funny. Plus Kobe has been better in the playoffs. KG had absolutely mediocre efficiency for a big man and could never really take the role as a first option scorer. You don't have a concrete argument at all and its based around hypotheticals. Would KG be able to make all the clutch shots that Kobe did with Shaq? Would he be able to have Kobe's playoff performances? Bynum was always injured and you should know that as Celtics fan. Artest wasn't even that good. Also Lakers had the best record in the West before Gasol even got there. So your argument makes zero sense because the Celtics as a team were more stacked than the Lakers in the later years, but certain factors prevented them from winning multiple titles. Also even if you want to do a hypothetical, there's zero indication that KG would be able to put up a performance like 08-09 Kobe in the playoffs who completely decimated the West

I also wanted to address the casual fan comment as well. So you mean to tell me that the majority of players in the league acknowledge Kobe as arguably the best (most think he's this generation's Jordan) of this past generation, but somehow they're wrong, but you're right even though they played against him and with him. I'm trying to understand that logic. You can't really say it's bias either because according to realgm, Kobe is a prick that no one likes.

2004 taking the Lakers to 6 games in the WCFinals to me is certainly contending especially considering MN may have made the finals if Cassel didn't get hurt. Cassel was MN 2nd best player and he only play 64 minutes in that entire 6 game series.

Check out that roster and who played in the playoffs vs LA.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2004-nba-western-conference-finals-lakers-vs-timberwolves.html

Kobe did play with a few bad teams but he never lifted them on his back like KG did in 2004. Didn't come close.

Lamar Odom IMHO was better as a two way player than anyone who KG played with in MN. Billups eventually became better than Odom but that wasn't until he figured it out and developed.

[jmr07019]

How do you think LeBron feels about that Wiggins for Love swap right now?

[ConstableGeneva]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/soshnick/status/720979923012317184[/tweet]The end is nigh. OTOH, the ad-less jerseys might go on sale soon! We just won't get one of Brandon Ingram's and Kevin Durant's Celtics uniforms without the ads.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/720999922691149826[/tweet]Okay, whew! So we can still buy ad-less Durant Celtics unis.

[2Mas]

MN was hardly stacked in 2004. As someone else mentioned, Billups wasn't on the team and Billups obviously didn't full develop until he went to Detroit. I watched Sprewell both in GS and NY and the version KG played with was 33 years old and only had 1 more year left in his entire career after that year. Sprewell had a PER of under 15 with MN that year and a TS% below 50%.

The whole notion that MN was stacked in 2004 is truly absurd unless any team with KG on it is stacked. They were a non playoff team/bad lottery team outside of KG. I like Cassell and he was always very good to great on offense but he was also older and injured in that Lakers series. Cassel was over 35.5 years old to start the playoffs and actually had his only all-star season that year thanks to playing with KG.

Imagine facing Shaq/Kobe and you have to do basically everything including bring the ball up at times since players including at the PG position are hurt.

KG was epic in 2004. Yes, KG lost in the playoffs that year to Shaq and Kobe. KG was playing without 34 year old Cassel for about half that series.

I remember the Lakers doubling KG in that series when KG, a monster on defense, didn't even have the ball. MN was way overmatched but KG deserved to be MVP that year and held up well in the playoffs considering the context. Remember PP alone against Indiana. That is pretty much KG was facing in MN quite often and especially in that series because of the injuries.

Mannnnnn.. you bugging. Minny was stacked up.

Trenton Hassell? Ervin Johnson (not magic), but basically just as good. Michael the Kandi Man?! Squad. Mark the dancing machine Madsen?! Mannnn FOH. TWolves were stacked up.

^^ No but deadass .. I'm a NYer right. So started watching Spree (fell in love). I only mess with crazy players. So I followed him to Minny. Where I met Mr.Crazy KG. So i watched Minny from 03 to 07. That organization was terrible. Not all media circus as Sac, but could never do anything right.

OH** & lets not forget the wonderful side deal with management & Joe Smith that left them with 1 first round pick from 00-04. Goodtimes.

KG had 1 good year with a talented team. & They went 58-24 & lost in the WCF. KG from that like 02-06 was other wordly. Such suchhh a damn shame he was playing in Minny for a dumb team. missed 15 games over a 8 season span playing almost 40mpg. 22-13-5-2-2. While being a defensive monster. I love that man.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/soshnick/status/720979923012317184[/tweet]The end is nigh. OTOH, the ad-less jerseys might go on sale soon! We just won't get one of Brandon Ingram's and Kevin Durant's Celtics uniforms without the ads.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/720999922691149826[/tweet]Okay, whew! So we can still buy ad-less Durant Celtics unis.

Oddly enough, that's going to turn jerseys with ads into something desirable, since people always seem to want what they can't have.

With that being said, I hope the NBA and its owners feel really proud of themselves once they start hanging jerseys in the Hall of Fame with ads on them. Imagine going to Springfield 15-20 years from now with your kids, pointing to the jersey that Steph Curry wore when he broke Ray Allen's record for most 3-pointers of all time, and your son asking "Daddy, what's that bird on the jersey?". You reply "Well, Kevin (named after Celtics greats, McHale and Durant of course), that's a logo from a company called Twitter. That's how he used to communicate worthless messages less than 140 characters to the rest of the world!"

[ConstableGeneva]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/JeffZillgitt/status/721044939040243712[/tweet]Jeremy Lin getting the max in Brooklyn!

[ryaningf]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SethPartnow/status/720815847841763329[/tweet]

Just absurd. He's got my vote for first team all-nba at CENTER.

[rickrolled]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/soshnick/status/720979923012317184[/tweet]The end is nigh. OTOH, the ad-less jerseys might go on sale soon! We just won't get one of Brandon Ingram's and Kevin Durant's Celtics uniforms without the ads.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/720999922691149826[/tweet]Okay, whew! So we can still buy ad-less Durant Celtics unis.

Boston dunkin' donuts Celtics