What is Jayson Tatum's ceiling?

[Slax]

Can Tatum ever get to the absolute top of the game? MJ, Bird, Kobe, Lebron level? With MJ and Bird they had that killer personality, if you met them on the street and knew nothing about basketball you'd you they were intense. Tatum seems more like the personality of Kobe and LBJ. Does that mean anything? Has the world just changed? Am I drunk again?

Tatum seems to have all the skills. Much like Paul did. Where he could quietly give us 20-25 a night for years to come. But can he just take over and will the team to huge wins when it counts? That's the question. What is his ceiling? Best to ever play is still an option. He's still young and already very good. But, personally, I'd like to see less smiles. I'd like more of that MJ grit. Maybe punch Wannamaker or something lol.

Dirk Nowitski was the best player on a championship team. So was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. So was Steph Curry. So, arguably, was Kevin Durant. For that matter, Magic was a pretty nice guy, and Tim Duncan seems pretty relaxed.

Frankly, I think Michael Jordan's personality was toxic. MJ was cruel and abusive to teammates, and nobody could do anything about it, because he was untouchable. He happened to be one of the greatest players of all time and was responsible for so much team success, so the fact that he used to bully teammates for no reason and would sometimes even get violent unprovoked got papered over as some sort of desirable "competitive spirit" that was necessary to win, even though very few other big time winners have mistreated their teammates to that extent.

[Fencer reregistered]

Can Tatum ever get to the absolute top of the game? MJ, Bird, Kobe, Lebron level? With MJ and Bird they had that killer personality, if you met them on the street and knew nothing about basketball you'd you they were intense. Tatum seems more like the personality of Kobe and LBJ. Does that mean anything? Has the world just changed? Am I drunk again?

Tatum seems to have all the skills. Much like Paul did. Where he could quietly give us 20-25 a night for years to come. But can he just take over and will the team to huge wins when it counts? That's the question. What is his ceiling? Best to ever play is still an option. He's still young and already very good. But, personally, I'd like to see less smiles. I'd like more of that MJ grit. Maybe punch Wannamaker or something lol.

Dirk Nowitski was the best player on a championship team. So was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. So was Steph Curry. So, arguably, was Kevin Durant. For that matter, Magic was a pretty nice guy, and Tim Duncan seems pretty relaxed.

Frankly, I think Michael Jordan's personality was toxic. MJ was cruel and abusive to teammates, and nobody could do anything about it, because he was untouchable. He happened to be one of the greatest players of all time and was responsible for so much team success, so the fact that he used to bully teammates for no reason and would sometimes even get violent unprovoked got papered over as some sort of desirable "competitive spirit" that was necessary to win, even though very few other big time winners have mistreated their teammates to that extent.

And Kobe probably learned the wrong lesson from him. Kobe's all-to-short career as a business leader suggests that he knew there were alternatives to abusing people. ... And by the way, Jordan has been tremendously unsuccessful as a team owner or executive.

[FlatearthZorro]

I'd say Jayson can definitely have 3-4 top 10 player type seasons, where he might or might not win an MVP. It all depends on health. I really compare him to PP and George, and PP was top 10 twice, imo would've been more if not for the crappy teams he played on. George has been a top 3 MVP candidate twice if I'm not mistaking.

[Gomes3PC]

I think our philly friends said it best, early in his rookie season: JT is a technically skilled player operating at near peak capacity

I think he has skill and talent to average 30 ppg some day.....something even Bird never did.....although 29.9 is pretty close.

Well, he's averaging 28 PPG this month and honestly I don't see why he can't do that in a few years on a regular basis. Right now he has to split the rock with some really good players like Hayward and Walker and Brown. Give him a usage rate you see with a typical true alpha playmaker (ie, >30%) and give him 36-38 MPG, and I would be pretty shocked if he couldn't do it.

Now, maybe he's always in a similar situation to now and thus he's never maxing his usage, but I would bet on at least a year or two in his prime where he has the opportunity to truly dominate the ball.

[Ernest]

Can Tatum ever get to the absolute top of the game? MJ, Bird, Kobe, Lebron level? With MJ and Bird they had that killer personality, if you met them on the street and knew nothing about basketball you'd you they were intense. Tatum seems more like the personality of Kobe and LBJ. Does that mean anything? Has the world just changed? Am I drunk again?

Tatum seems to have all the skills. Much like Paul did. Where he could quietly give us 20-25 a night for years to come. But can he just take over and will the team to huge wins when it counts? That's the question. What is his ceiling? Best to ever play is still an option. He's still young and already very good. But, personally, I'd like to see less smiles. I'd like more of that MJ grit. Maybe punch Wannamaker or something lol.

Dirk Nowitski was the best player on a championship team. So was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. So was Steph Curry. So, arguably, was Kevin Durant. For that matter, Magic was a pretty nice guy, and Tim Duncan seems pretty relaxed.

Frankly, I think Michael Jordan's personality was toxic. MJ was cruel and abusive to teammates, and nobody could do anything about it, because he was untouchable. He happened to be one of the greatest players of all time and was responsible for so much team success, so the fact that he used to bully teammates for no reason and would sometimes even get violent unprovoked got papered over as some sort of desirable "competitive spirit" that was necessary to win, even though very few other big time winners have mistreated their teammates to that extent.

Maybe it was toxic but there has got to be a connection between being a hot head and being the best at something. I remember when we drafted Smart and I heard he punched a fan and thought, well maybe this is a good thing.

[Fencer reregistered]

Dirk Nowitski was the best player on a championship team. So was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. So was Steph Curry. So, arguably, was Kevin Durant. For that matter, Magic was a pretty nice guy, and Tim Duncan seems pretty relaxed.

Frankly, I think Michael Jordan's personality was toxic. MJ was cruel and abusive to teammates, and nobody could do anything about it, because he was untouchable. He happened to be one of the greatest players of all time and was responsible for so much team success, so the fact that he used to bully teammates for no reason and would sometimes even get violent unprovoked got papered over as some sort of desirable "competitive spirit" that was necessary to win, even though very few other big time winners have mistreated their teammates to that extent.

Maybe it was toxic but there has got to be a connection between being a hot head and being the best at something. I remember when we drafted Smart and I heard he punched a fan and thought, well maybe this is a good thing.

Well, you need to be an intense competitor and physically aggressive within the context of the game. But whether you're a jerk about it is more optional. I'd say a majority of Celtics greats were jerks to the opposition, but a sizeable minority were not -- or perhaps it's vice-versa. I just googled on "Dennis Johnson fight", and there was basically one incident in which he didn't look to have done anything wrong at all. Havlicek didn't even turn up one hit. Bird, on the other hand, was an utter instigator, McHale clotheslined Rambis, Parish decked Laimbeer, and let's not even get into Ainge. Cousy beaned a Philly fan, with Heinsohn's help, but I'm guessing Sharman didn't do that kind of thing. Etc.

As to how they treated each other -- well, the 80s team is known to have been pretty intense in practice and pranking, but I doubt it got to Jordan levels of nastiness. And I somehow get the impression that the Russell teams were calmer internally than that.

[Shak_Celts]

[Slax]

Frankly, I think Michael Jordan's personality was toxic. MJ was cruel and abusive to teammates, and nobody could do anything about it, because he was untouchable. He happened to be one of the greatest players of all time and was responsible for so much team success, so the fact that he used to bully teammates for no reason and would sometimes even get violent unprovoked got papered over as some sort of desirable "competitive spirit" that was necessary to win, even though very few other big time winners have mistreated their teammates to that extent.

Maybe it was toxic but there has got to be a connection between being a hot head and being the best at something. I remember when we drafted Smart and I heard he punched a fan and thought, well maybe this is a good thing.

Well, you need to be an intense competitor and physically aggressive within the context of the game. But whether you're a jerk about it is more optional. I'd say a majority of Celtics greats were jerks to the opposition, but a sizeable minority were not -- or perhaps it's vice-versa. I just googled on "Dennis Johnson fight", and there was basically one incident in which he didn't look to have done anything wrong at all. Havlicek didn't even turn up one hit. Bird, on the other hand, was an utter instigator, McHale clotheslined Rambis, Parish decked Laimbeer, and let's not even get into Ainge. Cousy beaned a Philly fan, with Heinsohn's help, but I'm guessing Sharman didn't do that kind of thing. Etc.

As to how they treated each other -- well, the 80s team is known to have been pretty intense in practice and pranking, but I doubt it got to Jordan levels of nastiness. And I somehow get the impression that the Russell teams were calmer internally than that.

I would also add that Jordan was more than just a hothead. We're talking about a guy who used to start fistfights (or in the case of Perdue, just punched him unprovoked) with teammates in practice when he thought he got fouled in a scrimmage. He also went on years-long bullying campaigns against players he personally disliked like Cartwright, seemingly for no reason whatsoever.

Frankly I think he is an emotionally unstable man, but nobody was really willing to call him out for it in his playing days because, well, it was MJ. The Bulls were a supremely talented team, so they won a lot and Jordan's behavior got reported as "competitive spirit". But thankfully there haven't been that many NBA players whose "competitive spirit" resulted in them throwing punches at their own teammates during scrimmage, and when stories break about guys who do stuff like that, they're usually shaded as locker room cancers rather than incredible leaders.

[Fencer reregistered]

But thankfully there haven't been that many NBA players whose "competitive spirit" resulted in them throwing punches at their own teammates during scrimmage, and when stories break about guys who do stuff like that, they're usually shaded as locker room cancers rather than incredible leaders.

KG once punched out Wally Szerbiak. I don't recall the supposed reason.

And on the football side, Rodney Harrison picked a practice fight with of all people Troy Brown.

[zoyathedestroya]

Watch on YouTube

LMAO at 2:04 of video when Pippen starts, "let's not forget, umm..." then forgets the player he wants to mention.

[Slax]

But thankfully there haven't been that many NBA players whose "competitive spirit" resulted in them throwing punches at their own teammates during scrimmage, and when stories break about guys who do stuff like that, they're usually shaded as locker room cancers rather than incredible leaders.

KG once punched out Wally Szerbiak. I don't recall the supposed reason.

And on the football side, Rodney Harrison picked a practice fight with of all people Troy Brown.

I'm probably going to catch some flak for saying this here, but KG was pretty volatile and could be a huge bully too, so although I didn't remember that incident, that's not super surprising to me that he came to blows with a teammate in his early 20's. I don't know as much about Rodney Harrison. I'll root for the Patriots, but I'm not as into football as basketball.

What stands out with Jordan is the sheer volume of people that he famously held grudges against and bullied for months or years for absolutely no reason (eg Cartwright, McCray, Kwame) even including telling teammates not to pass the ball to guys he didn't like during games, that he threatened violence against loads of teammates and even punched at least three that we know about (Kerr, Perdue, and one other guy whose name I don't recall), and that this wasn't just a case of immaturity - he was still a cruel teammate when he was on the Wizards in his late 30's. I think people sometimes compare this kind of toxic behavior to guys like Bird and Kobe who would trash talk opponents and could be mean to teammates in scrimmage, but who probably weren't terrorizing teammates in the same way.

[5InOfLouisville]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/2/18/21142101/jayson-tatum-boston-celtics

article from the ringer on JT's progression.

spoiler:

Spoiler:

he is good at basketball

[Fencer reregistered]

But thankfully there haven't been that many NBA players whose "competitive spirit" resulted in them throwing punches at their own teammates during scrimmage, and when stories break about guys who do stuff like that, they're usually shaded as locker room cancers rather than incredible leaders.

KG once punched out Wally Szerbiak. I don't recall the supposed reason.

And on the football side, Rodney Harrison picked a practice fight with of all people Troy Brown.

I'm probably going to catch some flak for saying this here, but KG was pretty volatile and could be a huge bully too, so although I didn't remember that incident, that's not super surprising to me that he came to blows with a teammate in his early 20's. I don't know as much about Rodney Harrison. I'll root for the Patriots, but I'm not as into football as basketball.

What stands out with Jordan is the sheer volume of people that he famously held grudges against and bullied for months or years for absolutely no reason (eg Cartwright, McCray, Kwame) even including telling teammates not to pass the ball to guys he didn't like during games, that he threatened violence against loads of teammates and even punched at least three that we know about (Kerr, Perdue, and one other guy whose name I don't recall), and that this wasn't just a case of immaturity - he was still a cruel teammate when he was on the Wizards in his late 30's. I think people sometimes compare this kind of toxic behavior to guys like Bird and Kobe who would trash talk opponents and could be mean to teammates in scrimmage, but who probably weren't terrorizing teammates in the same way.

The Rodney Harrion story was painted as pretty benign or even admirable. He was tryiing to increase the intensity level of practice. Coaches seemed to be pleased as to how he went about it. Etc.

[Slax]

KG once punched out Wally Szerbiak. I don't recall the supposed reason.

And on the football side, Rodney Harrison picked a practice fight with of all people Troy Brown.

I'm probably going to catch some flak for saying this here, but KG was pretty volatile and could be a huge bully too, so although I didn't remember that incident, that's not super surprising to me that he came to blows with a teammate in his early 20's. I don't know as much about Rodney Harrison. I'll root for the Patriots, but I'm not as into football as basketball.

What stands out with Jordan is the sheer volume of people that he famously held grudges against and bullied for months or years for absolutely no reason (eg Cartwright, McCray, Kwame) even including telling teammates not to pass the ball to guys he didn't like during games, that he threatened violence against loads of teammates and even punched at least three that we know about (Kerr, Perdue, and one other guy whose name I don't recall), and that this wasn't just a case of immaturity - he was still a cruel teammate when he was on the Wizards in his late 30's. I think people sometimes compare this kind of toxic behavior to guys like Bird and Kobe who would trash talk opponents and could be mean to teammates in scrimmage, but who probably weren't terrorizing teammates in the same way.

The Rodney Harrion story was painted as pretty benign or even admirable. He was tryiing to increase the intensity level of practice. Coaches seemed to be pleased as to how he went about it. Etc.

Unfortunate. I'm not a huge fan of valorization of behaviors in sports that would be properly recognized as violent and toxic in other contexts. This isn't strictly limited to MJ by any means.

[Slax]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/2/18/21142101/jayson-tatum-boston-celtics

article from the ringer on JT's progression.

spoiler:

Spoiler:

he is good at basketball

Good article. I also like this quote acknowledging that knowing when to look for your own shot and when to defer to teammates is a difficult-to-learn skill rather than exclusively a reflection of a player's moral character: "There are wildly talented players in the league who struggle to modulate; the only way they know how to be involved is to be too involved, and the only way they know how to be deferential is to be too deferential."

[3D Chess]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/2/18/21142101/jayson-tatum-boston-celtics

article from the ringer on JT's progression.

spoiler:

Spoiler:

he is good at basketball

Good article. I also like this quote acknowledging that knowing when to look for your own shot and when to defer to teammates is a difficult-to-learn skill rather than exclusively a reflection of a player's moral character: "There are wildly talented players in the league who struggle to modulate; the only way they know how to be involved is to be too involved, and the only way they know how to be deferential is to be too deferential."

As the season rolls on, Tatum is becoming the kind of star who wins slowly, incrementally, with high skill and sustained focus to apply pressure from all directions at once. Playing against the Celtics is never a matter of stopping Tatum from scoring. It’s a test of endurance where at every step, Tatum is somehow involved.

Liked this quote too.

[24istheLAW]

The Rodney Harrion story was painted as pretty benign or even admirable. He was tryiing to increase the intensity level of practice. Coaches seemed to be pleased as to how he went about it. Etc.

Basketball and football aren't comparable at all in this regard.

Practice fights are part of the game in the NFL. Hell, according to DT Chad Eaton, Belichick would literally pay him to start fights in practice when he was with the Browns.

Now not all practice fights are welcome practice fights. But football is just a violent game, the O vs. D practices are necessarily antagonistic. If one unit is not playing hard enough, coaches often consider it good for the team for one side to stand up for themselves and set an example for the rest of the unit to raise their intensity level.

[zoyathedestroya]

Tatum headlines this week's NBA Power Rankings.

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[Shak_Celts]

Watch on YouTube

LMAO at 2:04 of video when Pippen starts, "let's not forget, umm..." then forgets the player he wants to mention.

I know I have meds in my system, my brain is on SLOW but did she say it's taking Tatum a little longer because of the mess of last year, how they usually see that jump to superstardom in their 3rd year but Tat is doing it in his 4th year? If I'm right about what she said, THIS IS Tatum's 3rd year.

Spoiler:

I really hope what I typed makes sense, I'm so high I actually can't think clear thoughts and type at the same time.

[Bleeding Green]

Watch on YouTube

LMAO at 2:04 of video when Pippen starts, "let's not forget, umm..." then forgets the player he wants to mention.

I know I have meds in my system, my brain is on SLOW but did she say it's taking Tatum a little longer because of the mess of last year, how they usually see that jump to superstardom in their 3rd year but Tat is doing it in his 4th year? If I'm right about what she said, THIS IS Tatum's 3rd year.

Spoiler:

I really hope what I typed makes sense, I'm so high I actually can't think clear thoughts and type at the same time.

Your first mistake was watching any produced by ESPN.