Celtics General Offseason Thread, 2019 – Welcome to the Party, #2

[sam_I_am]

Cap question: if we give Rozier a QO of $4m and let the world know we will match and we open up 15-20 million cap space with Horford deal (minus QO to TR), can we spend to limit on a free agent and then go over cap to match or pay Terry a fair deal?

That seems a great way to recover the salary slot for future max player at trading deadline to replace that lost by Kyrie. If so, then good riddance to Irving.

[brackdan70]

So it looks like we will more than likely be operating as an over the cap and under the tax team (unless Horford goes elsewhere)

Who are the mid level exception guys we could land? We will have the full mid level just over 9 million per year with 5% raises. We could offer a 3/29 deal.
Guys like Julius Randle will command more but any useful guys we could fit?

I assume it's going to be a PG unless we trade for one. Rubio, Beverley, Rondo, etc. Even if Rozier is back, we're going to need help there.

Yes that seems logical especially if Rozier is not back. Lots of decent guys out there...Collison and Joseph at Indy are options as well.

If Rozier is back though I feel like it is covered between him and Smart, and the other PG would be more of a Vet min type. Maybe there is an upgrade over Wanamaker or bring him back. To me if that’s the case I’d like to look for a Big with the MLE.

[Edug27]

Smart/Rozier
JB/
Hayward/
JT
Horford/Baynes/Timelord.

Picks and maybe Morris and MLE to fill out the roster.

Smart should start. It seems Horford is staying. Morris and Rozier are salary for trades which we need as we wont be under the cap anytime soon enough to matter.

My opinion: Smart is not an NBA starting PG. He's a defensive specialist off the bench. He's Iggy. Rozier fits that role better. He can pass within the offense, and he can score the ball. Not perfect by any means though, but no one on the roster is.

I'm also tired of Marcus Morris. I say we rebuild the bench. Add 3 solid veteran pieces around Smart and Baynes. Particularly dudes who can put..the..ball..in..the..hole...

Rozier / Smart
Brown / **veteran**
Hayward / **veteran**
Tatum / **veteran**
Horford / Baynes / Williams

Then, if Beal comes available... You start those convo's.

Beal is looking like an AD type deal for the Wizards. All news is he's not available unless it's some stupid deal. And he doesn't move the needle enough as a player.

If Morris leaves, and we have the full MLE, how do we sign 3 vets worth playing better than Morris?

Well, heres my take.... It's time to adjust expectations completely. I think we need to understand the problems we had last season, to better avoid duplicating them. No more talking about needle moving players.

It's extremely hard to develop young players while having vets with strong personalities who want to win at all costs (see Lakers as well). The focus next season HAS to be on..

1. Developing Tatum, Jaylen and Rozier
2. Having Gordon slowly improve, week by week, game by game

........ everything else comes after that, including winning games and the wants/needs of our other vet players. Horford ONLY comes back because he loves Boston and wants to help the young dudes grow. Otherwise, he should move on. Morris is a personality that I feel won't fit with this roster. He likes his minutes, touches, and he has a strong personality. That's not what we need off our bench. Veterans who understand their role.. Because none of Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Hayward should worry about their minutes next season.. whether they are excelling or having a tough stretch. Same goes for Smart.. who I feel is only kept on this roster for a potential trade due to his salary #.

[Feed Your Head]

I like how Rozier is part of the developing group with Jaylen/Tatum, and Smart isn't. There is a THREE WEEK age difference between the two of them lol. Smarts improvement last year should put a squash on any weak takes that he is at his ceiling.

I am on board with Morris not being back though.

[Jaqua92]

I'd resign Al, 3/70, match Rozier on anything under 12 million. Similar offer for Morris.

Bring back nearly the same team + draft picks and laugh once it wins more games than the Lakers and whatever team Kyrie picks.

I'd also keep an eye out for Blake Griffin at the deadline. Brown + Rozier at around 12-14 million a year, Yabu and the 14th pick after we sign him should get us close ish salary wise.

Smart, Hayward, Tatum, Griffin and Horford would be nice.

You know the Celtics are in a bad spot when the denial of such fans is causing them to make such statements as implying that we will be better than the Lakers with LeBron and Anthony Davis

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[Edug27]

I like how Rozier is part of the developing group with Jaylen/Tatum, and Smart isn't. There is a THREE WEEK age difference between the two of them. Smarts improvement last year should put a squash on any weak takes that he is at his ceiling.

I am on board with Morris not being back though.

Rozier, if resigned, is the starting PG for the foreseeable future. You sign him with hopes he develops into a Lowry/Bledsoe type PG. He can be a scorer. He has another level to take his game to.

To me, Smart is and always will be a really good bench piece on a team looking to make a run (hence why I call him Iggy). I think he is who he is at this point... and I don't see Boston contending during the majority of his contract.

Just my take though. It's less about age and more about the player.

[Feed Your Head]

I like how Rozier is part of the developing group with Jaylen/Tatum, and Smart isn't. There is a THREE WEEK age difference between the two of them. Smarts improvement last year should put a squash on any weak takes that he is at his ceiling.

I am on board with Morris not being back though.

Rozier, if resigned, is the starting PG for the foreseeable future. You sign him with hopes he develops into a Lowry/Bledsoe type PG. He can be a scorer. He has another level to take his game to.

To me, Smart is and always will be a really good bench piece on a team looking to make a run (hence why I call him Iggy). I think he is who he is at this point... and I don't see Boston contending during the majority of his contract.

Just my take though.

There is no age difference, they're both basically young veterans at this point, they've gotten similar minutes the last couple years. Id argue to say that Rozier is more of a finished product than Smart. He can be a good scorer off the bench, but when he gets a bigger role on offense he becomes a liability on defense. He has shown zero improvement in running PnR, which is the most important thing for a pg lol. Smart was by far the more efficient player last year, is a much better passer, and is multiple levels ahead on defense.

Smart with a somewhat reliable outside shot is a far better option to start next to Jaylen and Tatum, and Terry can bring offense off the bench, if back. I will say this though, a small part of me is nervous he may try to take too much on and start chucking again this year and drop back down to the low 30s from 3. Hopefully he has matured past that though.

[MagicBagley18]

We could always just start Building around Tatum but We would have to really destroy and rebuild it IMO. Next season let Hayward get back healthy build up his value trade him. Let JB build his stock flip him also unless he’s playing so great that the extension money he’s going to get looks worth the price but I’m skeptical.

Let horford go to a contender or opt in and trade him to one to get any asset back. Let smart start at pg. Morris walk. There is no moves we can make next season that can make us win a ring. We can be good but we aren’t going to have star power that it takes to win the whole thing.

Don’t start with getting Beal- if he’s available why wouldn’t the pelicans trade for him now with the assets they just got? KAT ain’t going anywhere. Harden is minimum a year away fom a trade and that’s optimistic at best plus it kills our whole roster. Capela trade got shot down but he’s not moving the needle. Don’t want Westbrook or cp3 so don’t even go there.

We are gonna root for the Celtics no matter what and have fun watching them again but I don’t think we should be middle of the road now. I know I’m gonna hear well if kawhi leaves and the bucks can’t sign a lot of key pieces the east is right there for the taking.

So we get to the finals and get crushed by Lebrons newest super team? I’m not sure I’m down for that.

[bucknersrevenge]

I like how Rozier is part of the developing group with Jaylen/Tatum, and Smart isn't. There is a THREE WEEK age difference between the two of them. Smarts improvement last year should put a squash on any weak takes that he is at his ceiling.

I am on board with Morris not being back though.

Rozier, if resigned, is the starting PG for the foreseeable future. You sign him with hopes he develops into a Lowry/Bledsoe type PG. He can be a scorer. He has another level to take his game to.

To me, Smart is and always will be a really good bench piece on a team looking to make a run (hence why I call him Iggy). I think he is who he is at this point... and I don't see Boston contending during the majority of his contract.

Just my take though.

Smart increased his finishing at the rim last season by 100 points. He increased his 3pt % by 6 points. He was a better ballhandler last year. If he starts I look to finally get to see more of the post up/bully ball on opposing PGs that I was expecting out of him when he came into the league. Smart can now finally be the point of attack at BOTH ends of the floor against PGs. He won't ever be Damien Lillard but this narrative where Marcus cannot be an effective offensive contributor is going to be rendered extinct by the end of this next season. We need the right complementary pieces around Tatum, Brown, and Hayward who really should be relied on to do most of the scoring on this team. Smart has another gear as well I think. His gear though is just more democratic.

[Edug27]

Smart increased his finishing at the rim last season by 100 points. He increased his 3pt % by 6 points. He was a better ballhandler last year. If he starts I look to finally get to see more of the post up/bully ball on opposing PGs that I was expecting out of him when he came into the league. Smart can now finally be the point of attack at BOTH ends of the floor against PGs. He won't ever be Damien Lillard but this narrative where Marcus cannot be an effective offensive contributor is going to be rendered extinct by the end of this next season. We need the right complementary pieces around Tatum, Brown, and Hayward who really should be relied on to do most of the scoring on this team. Smart has another gear as well I think. His gear though is just more democratic.

I like how Rozier is part of the developing group with Jaylen/Tatum, and Smart isn't. There is a THREE WEEK age difference between the two of them. Smarts improvement last year should put a squash on any weak takes that he is at his ceiling.

I am on board with Morris not being back though.

Rozier, if resigned, is the starting PG for the foreseeable future. You sign him with hopes he develops into a Lowry/Bledsoe type PG. He can be a scorer. He has another level to take his game to.

To me, Smart is and always will be a really good bench piece on a team looking to make a run (hence why I call him Iggy). I think he is who he is at this point... and I don't see Boston contending during the majority of his contract.

Just my take though.

There is no age difference, they're both basically young veterans at this point, they've gotten similar minutes the last couple years. Id argue to say that Rozier is more of a finished product than Smart. He can be a good scorer off the bench, but when he gets a bigger role on offense he becomes a liability on defense. Smart was by far the more efficient player last year, is a much better passer, and is multiple levels ahead on defense.

Smart with a somewhat reliable outside shot is a far better option to start next to Jaylen and Tatum, and Terry can bring offense off the bench, if back. I will say this though, a small part of me in nervous he may try to take too much on and start chucking again this year and drop back down to the low 30s from 3.

And I'd strongly have to disagree with both of you. I feel Rozier has much more room to grow as a player than Smart does.

If Rozier is resigned, he will be with expectations that he's the starting PG next season.

[bucknersrevenge]

I like how Rozier is part of the developing group with Jaylen/Tatum, and Smart isn't. There is a THREE WEEK age difference between the two of them. Smarts improvement last year should put a squash on any weak takes that he is at his ceiling.

I am on board with Morris not being back though.

Rozier, if resigned, is the starting PG for the foreseeable future. You sign him with hopes he develops into a Lowry/Bledsoe type PG. He can be a scorer. He has another level to take his game to.

To me, Smart is and always will be a really good bench piece on a team looking to make a run (hence why I call him Iggy). I think he is who he is at this point... and I don't see Boston contending during the majority of his contract.

Just my take though.

There is no age difference, they're both basically young veterans at this point, they've gotten similar minutes the last couple years. Id argue to say that Rozier is more of a finished product than Smart. He can be a good scorer off the bench, but when he gets a bigger role on offense he becomes a liability on defense. He has shown zero improvement in running PnR, which is the most important thing for a pg lol. Smart was by far the more efficient player last year, is a much better passer, and is multiple levels ahead on defense.

Smart with a somewhat reliable outside shot is a far better option to start next to Jaylen and Tatum, and Terry can bring offense off the bench, if back. I will say this though, a small part of me is nervous he may try to take too much on and start chucking again this year and drop back down to the low 30s from 3. Hopefully he has matured past that though.

I just don't see Terry wanting to come back if he's not promised a starting role. I mean watch the car wash again. He believes he is a high caliber starter in this league. And whatever you think about that, I agree with you that Smart is the better fit in the backcourt next to Brown and Tatum. So Rozier has to walk.

[Edug27]

Rozier, if resigned, is the starting PG for the foreseeable future. You sign him with hopes he develops into a Lowry/Bledsoe type PG. He can be a scorer. He has another level to take his game to.

To me, Smart is and always will be a really good bench piece on a team looking to make a run (hence why I call him Iggy). I think he is who he is at this point... and I don't see Boston contending during the majority of his contract.

Just my take though.

There is no age difference, they're both basically young veterans at this point, they've gotten similar minutes the last couple years. Id argue to say that Rozier is more of a finished product than Smart. He can be a good scorer off the bench, but when he gets a bigger role on offense he becomes a liability on defense. He has shown zero improvement in running PnR, which is the most important thing for a pg lol. Smart was by far the more efficient player last year, is a much better passer, and is multiple levels ahead on defense.

Smart with a somewhat reliable outside shot is a far better option to start next to Jaylen and Tatum, and Terry can bring offense off the bench, if back. I will say this though, a small part of me is nervous he may try to take too much on and start chucking again this year and drop back down to the low 30s from 3. Hopefully he has matured past that though.

I just don't see Terry wanting to come back if he's not promised a starting role. I mean watch the car wash again. He believes he is a high caliber starter in this league. And whatever you think about that, I agree with you that Smart is the better fit in the backcourt next to Brown and Tatum. So Rozier has to walk.

If you think Smart is a better fit, then yes, you definitely let Rozier walk.. otherwise things could get ugly.

But if you're in my boat, and feel Rozier has the better potential as a starting PG, then you resign Rozier and keep Smart as the 6th man.. and use his salary for any potential trade that may come up.

[bucknersrevenge]

Smart increased his finishing at the rim last season by 100 points. He increased his 3pt % by 6 points. He was a better ballhandler last year. If he starts I look to finally get to see more of the post up/bully ball on opposing PGs that I was expecting out of him when he came into the league. Smart can now finally be the point of attack at BOTH ends of the floor against PGs. He won't ever be Damien Lillard but this narrative where Marcus cannot be an effective offensive contributor is going to be rendered extinct by the end of this next season. We need the right complementary pieces around Tatum, Brown, and Hayward who really should be relied on to do most of the scoring on this team. Smart has another gear as well I think. His gear though is just more democratic.

Rozier, if resigned, is the starting PG for the foreseeable future. You sign him with hopes he develops into a Lowry/Bledsoe type PG. He can be a scorer. He has another level to take his game to.

To me, Smart is and always will be a really good bench piece on a team looking to make a run (hence why I call him Iggy). I think he is who he is at this point... and I don't see Boston contending during the majority of his contract.

Just my take though.

There is no age difference, they're both basically young veterans at this point, they've gotten similar minutes the last couple years. Id argue to say that Rozier is more of a finished product than Smart. He can be a good scorer off the bench, but when he gets a bigger role on offense he becomes a liability on defense. Smart was by far the more efficient player last year, is a much better passer, and is multiple levels ahead on defense.

Smart with a somewhat reliable outside shot is a far better option to start next to Jaylen and Tatum, and Terry can bring offense off the bench, if back. I will say this though, a small part of me in nervous he may try to take too much on and start chucking again this year and drop back down to the low 30s from 3.

And I'd strongly have to disagree with both of you. I feel Rozier has much more room to grow as a player than Smart does.

If Rozier is resigned, he will be with expectations that he's the starting PG next season.

This part is definitely where we do agree. I don't think you can bring Rozier back unless you tell him that he is the starter. In my mind though he doesn't fit with Brown and Tatum. It'll be the Terry Rozier show out there if he comes back next to those two. And Smart did nothing last year to deserve a benching.

[Feed Your Head]

Smart increased his finishing at the rim last season by 100 points. He increased his 3pt % by 6 points. He was a better ballhandler last year. If he starts I look to finally get to see more of the post up/bully ball on opposing PGs that I was expecting out of him when he came into the league. Smart can now finally e the point of attack at BOTH ends of the floor against PGs. He won't ever be Damien Lillard but this narrative where Marcus cannot be an effective offensive contributor is going to be rendered extinct by the end of this next season. We need the right complementary pieces around Tatum, Brown, and Hayward who really should be relied on to do most of the scoring on this team. Smart has another gear as well I think. His gear though is just more democratic.

There is no age difference, they're both basically young veterans at this point, they've gotten similar minutes the last couple years. Id argue to say that Rozier is more of a finished product than Smart. He can be a good scorer off the bench, but when he gets a bigger role on offense he becomes a liability on defense. Smart was by far the more efficient player last year, is a much better passer, and is multiple levels ahead on defense.

Smart with a somewhat reliable outside shot is a far better option to start next to Jaylen and Tatum, and Terry can bring offense off the bench, if back. I will say this though, a small part of me in nervous he may try to take too much on and start chucking again this year and drop back down to the low 30s from 3.

And I'd strongly have to disagree with both of you. I feel Rozier has much more room to grow as a player than Smart does.

If Rozier is resigned, he will be with expectations that he's the starting PG next season.

This part is definitely where we do agree. I don't think you can bring Rozier back unless you tell him that he is the starter. In my mind though he doesn't fit with Brown and Tatum. It'll be the Terry Rozier show out there if he comes back next to those two. And Smart did nothing last year to deserve a benching.

I agree Terry only comes back if he thinks he will be the starting pg. Which is why I bet he is in a place like Phoenix or Orlando next year.

Smart is a much better fit next to Jaylen and Tatum if you really want them to be aggressive and break out.

[jfs1000d]

Would anyone have any qualms about a deal with Hayward & draft pick(s) for Conley? It seems like a "kill two birds with one stone" type of deal. We still have too many wing players & lack a true starting PG.

I would consider making that deal & still match any reasonable offer for Rozier. This time with the intention of flipping him later in the year or next offseason. Aside from Kyrie, it is really unlike Ainge to lose an asset for nothing. Then I would re-sign Morris, as he will have a more clear cut role for him as well.

Conley / Rozier (or vet PG)
Brown / Smart
Tatum
Horford / Morris
Baynes / Williams

That's a better version of the team we had two seasons ago & it doesn't cripple us from a cap or future draft pick standpoint. I think the P&R game between Conley & Horford could be fantastic. We have the option of going big by inserting Baynes or "small" with Smart or Morris out there. It gives Tatum & Brown every opportunity to to really take the reigns as well.

That's a deal you do with AD on your team. He makes no sense for our current team.

Then again, neither does Horford.

Something centered around Hayward for Conley does a lot to balance the roster, but Id bet hayward has more life and productive basketball left in him comparedbto Conley despite his celtics career to date indicating otherwise.

He was much better late in the season than the beginning. This summer, he is obviously a workout fiend, he gets his explosion back because he worked at it. I think he’s in for a rebirth.

The talent was always there with this guy.

I don’t want to give up Hayward for an older player. We haven’t had the gordo we bought. We owe it to our franchise to see how he plays this year.


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[jfs1000d]

I like how Rozier is part of the developing group with Jaylen/Tatum, and Smart isn't. There is a THREE WEEK age difference between the two of them lol. Smarts improvement last year should put a squash on any weak takes that he is at his ceiling.

I am on board with Morris not being back though.

Reason is salary. The first few guys are in the rookie contracts. I do count smart as a young core player


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[Darth Celtic]

Smart increased his finishing at the rim last season by 100 points. He increased his 3pt % by 6 points. He was a better ballhandler last year. If he starts I look to finally get to see more of the post up/bully ball on opposing PGs that I was expecting out of him when he came into the league. Smart can now finally be the point of attack at BOTH ends of the floor against PGs. He won't ever be Damien Lillard but this narrative where Marcus cannot be an effective offensive contributor is going to be rendered extinct by the end of this next season. We need the right complementary pieces around Tatum, Brown, and Hayward who really should be relied on to do most of the scoring on this team. Smart has another gear as well I think. His gear though is just more democratic.

There is no age difference, they're both basically young veterans at this point, they've gotten similar minutes the last couple years. Id argue to say that Rozier is more of a finished product than Smart. He can be a good scorer off the bench, but when he gets a bigger role on offense he becomes a liability on defense. Smart was by far the more efficient player last year, is a much better passer, and is multiple levels ahead on defense.

Smart with a somewhat reliable outside shot is a far better option to start next to Jaylen and Tatum, and Terry can bring offense off the bench, if back. I will say this though, a small part of me in nervous he may try to take too much on and start chucking again this year and drop back down to the low 30s from 3.

And I'd strongly have to disagree with both of you. I feel Rozier has much more room to grow as a player than Smart does.

If Rozier is resigned, he will be with expectations that he's the starting PG next season.

This part is definitely where we do agree. I don't think you can bring Rozier back unless you tell him that he is the starter. In my mind though he doesn't fit with Brown and Tatum. It'll be the Terry Rozier show out there if he comes back next to those two. And Smart did nothing last year to deserve a benching.[/quote]


I agree Terry only comes back if he thinks he will be the starting pg. Which is why I bet he is in a place like Phoenix or Orlando next year.

Smart is a much better fit next to Jaylen and Tatum if you really want them to be aggressive and break out.[/quote]

I think Terry doesn't have a choice as we own his rights as restricted and no longer have tax concerns with a 35m a year guy leaving for nothing and Horford taking a 10m a year pay cut.

[Curmudgeon]

Hayward wasn't better later in the year. He was lousy in the playoffs. If I could trade Hayward to the Knicks for Mitchell Robinson, I'd do it in a second. I would then renounce the trade exception and go after Kemba.

[jfs1000d]

Also guys. I wouldn’t expect or count on it, but Rozier absolutely wants to be here if no Kyrie.

Imagine if he comes back, then becomes scary terry again? This crowd and town would go nuts for that team.

God forbid the nba if that Celtics team wins some games. Kyrie’s rep would be over.


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[Edug27]

Smart increased his finishing at the rim last season by 100 points. He increased his 3pt % by 6 points. He was a better ballhandler last year. If he starts I look to finally get to see more of the post up/bully ball on opposing PGs that I was expecting out of him when he came into the league. Smart can now finally be the point of attack at BOTH ends of the floor against PGs. He won't ever be Damien Lillard but this narrative where Marcus cannot be an effective offensive contributor is going to be rendered extinct by the end of this next season. We need the right complementary pieces around Tatum, Brown, and Hayward who really should be relied on to do most of the scoring on this team. Smart has another gear as well I think. His gear though is just more democratic.

There is no age difference, they're both basically young veterans at this point, they've gotten similar minutes the last couple years. Id argue to say that Rozier is more of a finished product than Smart. He can be a good scorer off the bench, but when he gets a bigger role on offense he becomes a liability on defense. Smart was by far the more efficient player last year, is a much better passer, and is multiple levels ahead on defense.

Smart with a somewhat reliable outside shot is a far better option to start next to Jaylen and Tatum, and Terry can bring offense off the bench, if back. I will say this though, a small part of me in nervous he may try to take too much on and start chucking again this year and drop back down to the low 30s from 3.

And I'd strongly have to disagree with both of you. I feel Rozier has much more room to grow as a player than Smart does.

If Rozier is resigned, he will be with expectations that he's the starting PG next season.

This part is definitely where we do agree. I don't think you can bring Rozier back unless you tell him that he is the starter. In my mind though he doesn't fit with Brown and Tatum. It'll be the Terry Rozier show out there if he comes back next to those two. And Smart did nothing last year to deserve a benching.

Smart has always been on the bench. He was thrown into the starting lineup when crap got messy last year. He came off the bench during our long playoff run last season.

During that run.. Jaylen, Brown and Rozier all played 32-36 mpg, got up 13-14 shots a game, scoring 16-18 ppg in a fairly efficient manner. Small sample size, but not sure how you feel they don't "fit together". I'm intrigued with seeing that tandem (with Gordon) over the course of a season. Terry as a starter is different than Terry off the bench. Jaylen as a starter is different than Jaylen off the bench. I'm sure the same would be said about Jayson as well. Smart is Smart.. Starter or bench player.

Last season was a mess all around. Throw that tape away. Players weren't playing to their strengths.