Hayward Undecided

[Captain_Caveman]

S&Ts can still happen, but there is no real benefit anymore for the player. Players can now only make as much in a S&T as they could if they signed with a team outright. In addition, the acquiring team becomes hard capped. So, while they are still a thing, they have largely fallen out of use over the past few years.

Oh crumb. I think the hard cap is a good argument against by S&T ideas in another thread.

Whoa...I completely missed this change. When did S&T's cause a "hard cap" and what exactly does that even mean?

It means not much, really, but people will keep bringing it up to demonstrate esoteric knowledge.

We already had a hard cap the year that we signed-and-traded for Courtney Lee. It was capped at the apron, which is $4m above the lux tax threshold, which in turn is about $20 above the salary cap.

Should we do a sign and trade, we would be capped at ~$125m for this year only. That's not very likely to matter, even if we did sign-and-trades for *both* Hayward and Griffin.

In the trades I outlined for Hayward and Griffin, we'd still be ~$10m below the apron. It is all but a non-issue.

[CelticsLV]

If Hayward doesn't come, I'd consider putting a fat offer sheet in front of Otto Porter, who shot over 43% from 3 pt. range last year. The Wizards have nearly $90M in committed salaries in each of the next two years, so matching an offer sheet for Porter at, say, $18M in year 1 would put them just a few million below the tax line. Barring a big trade, they'd be stuck with the same group (or almost the same group) that lost in round two this year.

As for sign-and-trades, Larry Coon explains in FAQ 93 why there are so few of them under the current CBA.

Wizards will gain absolutely nothing by letting Porter go. That Mahinmi deal crippled them. They also wasted a first rounder on expiring Bojan and now they're almost forced to resign him because even if they decline every option, they'll gain barely any cap space. Best thing they can do is bring Porter back and get a decent veteran backup PG.

I like Porter a lot. He's bigger and better than Crowder and is only 23 years old. But there's no deal that makes sense for Wizards involving Porter unless they get somebody like Crowder back as immediate replacement (win now) + other asset or 2.

[Fencer reregistered]

Should we do a sign and trade, we would be capped at ~$125m for this year only.

Really? I thought it was for the life of the S&T contract (with the cap number of course changing from year to year).

[Captain_Caveman]

Should we do a sign and trade, we would be capped at ~$125m for this year only.

Really? I thought it was for the life of the S&T contract (with the cap number of course changing from year to year).

Fortunately, no.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q28

28. What is the hard cap? When are teams subject to it? How does it work?

As described in question number 23, teams above the apron -- the point $4 million above the tax line -- have a smaller Mid-Level exception, cannot use the Bi-Annual exception, and cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade transaction. These exceptions are reserved for teams that are below the apron. This applies to the entire season in which one of these exceptions is used -- for example, if a team is below the apron and utilizes its Bi-Annual exception, it commits itself to remaining below the apron for the remainder of that season (through the following June 30).

In other words, when a team is below the apron and uses its Bi-Annual exception, receives a player who is signed-and-traded, or uses its Mid-Level exception to sign a player to a contract larger than the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception allows, the team becomes hard-capped at the apron for the remainder of that season. This eliminates any potential loophole where a team could first use one of these exceptions and subsequently add salary to go above the apron, since adding salary first and then using the exception would be illegal.

If a team is hard-capped, it cannot exceed the apron under any circumstance. If the team subsequently needs to sign a player (for example, to replace injured players) it must first create room under the apron by waiving player(s) with non-guaranteed salary, waiving player(s) with guaranteed salary and utilizing the stretch provision, trading downward in salary, etc. A team that is hard-capped can sign players to non-guaranteed contracts for training camp or the regular season, but must rid themselves of such players before their salary would take the team above the apron. A team subject to the hard cap can also sign players to Rest-of-Season contracts during the season, as long as the salary pro-ration keeps the team below the apron.

[Darth Celtic]

It's only that year. As stated, no matter how good we are at this, Smitty included, each NBA team has somebody who is 3 times as smart at this stuff than we are. Well, maybe not the Nets, but anyways. They have so many options. If they want something bad enough and the other teams agree to it, we can probably do just about anything.

[Curmudgeon]

Wizards will gain absolutely nothing by letting Porter go. That Mahinmi deal crippled them. They also wasted a first rounder on expiring Bojan and now they're almost forced to resign him because even if they decline every option, they'll gain barely any cap space.

I don't disagree with you. Just make it as expensive as possible for them to resign him. If you can't get Porter, put the Wiz in even more cap hell.

[Fencer reregistered]

Great. Thanks!

Should we do a sign and trade, we would be capped at ~$125m for this year only.

Really? I thought it was for the life of the S&T contract (with the cap number of course changing from year to year).

Fortunately, no.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q28

28. What is the hard cap? When are teams subject to it? How does it work?

As described in question number 23, teams above the apron -- the point $4 million above the tax line -- have a smaller Mid-Level exception, cannot use the Bi-Annual exception, and cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade transaction. These exceptions are reserved for teams that are below the apron. This applies to the entire season in which one of these exceptions is used -- for example, if a team is below the apron and utilizes its Bi-Annual exception, it commits itself to remaining below the apron for the remainder of that season (through the following June 30).

In other words, when a team is below the apron and uses its Bi-Annual exception, receives a player who is signed-and-traded, or uses its Mid-Level exception to sign a player to a contract larger than the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception allows, the team becomes hard-capped at the apron for the remainder of that season. This eliminates any potential loophole where a team could first use one of these exceptions and subsequently add salary to go above the apron, since adding salary first and then using the exception would be illegal.

If a team is hard-capped, it cannot exceed the apron under any circumstance. If the team subsequently needs to sign a player (for example, to replace injured players) it must first create room under the apron by waiving player(s) with non-guaranteed salary, waiving player(s) with guaranteed salary and utilizing the stretch provision, trading downward in salary, etc. A team that is hard-capped can sign players to non-guaranteed contracts for training camp or the regular season, but must rid themselves of such players before their salary would take the team above the apron. A team subject to the hard cap can also sign players to Rest-of-Season contracts during the season, as long as the salary pro-ration keeps the team below the apron.

[Darth Celtic]

Wizards will gain absolutely nothing by letting Porter go. That Mahinmi deal crippled them. They also wasted a first rounder on expiring Bojan and now they're almost forced to resign him because even if they decline every option, they'll gain barely any cap space.

I don't disagree with you. Just make it as expensive as possible for them to resign him. If you can't get Porter, put the Wiz in even more cap hell.

even worse, they don't match.

[Fencer reregistered]

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q28

By the way -- I presume there's no useful site directly based on the most recent CBA, or people would be referring to it ore often.

But is there at least a reliable list somewhere of the changes since the 2011 deal?

[Curmudgeon]

I don't disagree with you. Just make it as expensive as possible for them to resign him. If you can't get Porter, put the Wiz in even more cap hell.

even worse, they don't match.

Porter is 23 years old, healthy, was a #3 pick and shot over 43 percent from beyond the arc last year. That was 5th overall in the entire NBA. He averaged one less rebound per 36 than Olynyk.

Pretty good consolation prize if you can't get Hayward IMHO. I'll certainly take Porter over Gallinari.

[Smitty731]

When was the last time a sign and trade was done? Do teams even do that anymore?

Matthew Dellavedova from CLE to MIL last year. CLE did it to create a TPE that they then used to ultimately get Kyle Korver.

Troy Daniels was also S&T to MEM from CHA.

[Gomes3PC]

I don't disagree with you. Just make it as expensive as possible for them to resign him. If you can't get Porter, put the Wiz in even more cap hell.

even worse, they don't match.

Porter is 23 years old, healthy, was a #3 pick and shot over 43 percent from beyond the arc last year. That was 5th overall in the entire NBA. He averaged one less rebound per 36 than Olynyk.

Pretty good consolation prize if you can't get Hayward IMHO. I'll certainly take Porter over Gallinari.

He can't create for himself. Porter spent 75% of the season standing still while John Wall created a vortex of attention and kicked to Porter for a wide open 3. He's also a subpar defender.

Honestly, did anyone come out of the Wiz series thinking "Man! That Porter kid is worth 3x the salary of Jae Crowder!" Of course not.

[Captain_Caveman]

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q28

By the way -- I presume there's no useful site directly based on the most recent CBA, or people would be referring to it ore often.

But is there at least a reliable list somewhere of the changes since the 2011 deal?

My bad, I thought Coon was still updating that one for the new CBA. So one change is that the apron is actually $6m above the tax threshold, and not $4m. We can go up to $127m in salaries if we do a sign-and-trade.

Here are a few articles that go into the big changes of the new CBA:
http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/nba-6-important-aspects-of-the-new-collective-bargaining-agreement-122016
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/01/20/detailed-summary-of-changes-under-the-nbas-new-collective-bargaining-agreement/

The big one IMO is the supermax, aka Designated Veteran Player Exception.

[31to6]

I don't disagree with you. Just make it as expensive as possible for them to resign him. If you can't get Porter, put the Wiz in even more cap hell.

even worse, they don't match.

Porter is 23 years old, healthy, was a #3 pick and shot over 43 percent from beyond the arc last year. That was 5th overall in the entire NBA. He averaged one less rebound per 36 than Olynyk.

Pretty good consolation prize if you can't get Hayward IMHO. I'll certainly take Porter over Gallinari.

Why not just play Jaylen at that point, and save room for Michael Porter if we don't get Ayton or Bamba?

No need to accumulate max contracts just because we (almost) can right now -- if we stretch -- because it'll get real tight later.

[Andrew McCeltic]

even worse, they don't match.

Porter is 23 years old, healthy, was a #3 pick and shot over 43 percent from beyond the arc last year. That was 5th overall in the entire NBA. He averaged one less rebound per 36 than Olynyk.

Pretty good consolation prize if you can't get Hayward IMHO. I'll certainly take Porter over Gallinari.

He can't create for himself. Porter spent 75% of the season standing still while John Wall created a vortex of attention and kicked to Porter for a wide open 3. He's also a subpar defender.

Honestly, did anyone come out of the Wiz series thinking "Man! That Porter kid is worth 3x the salary of Jae Crowder!" Of course not.

Yeah I like Otto Porter, and he didn't go third in the draft for no reason. But the risk is that he had a career year as a perimeter shooter in a contract season. Either he comes back down to earth or, even if he stays shooting like he is, doesn't get better. Or he keeps improving. Tough call, given his age. But he's more a Greg Monroe caliber max guy than a Hayward max. I like Gallo a lot, and if he's healthy he could thrive for us. He's got concerns, too, but offensively he's out of Otto's league.

[Darth Celtic]

Max salary for Otto over max length vs 18-20m a year for 3 years of Gallo. I'd take Gallo all day long.

[chrisab123]

I don't disagree with you. Just make it as expensive as possible for them to resign him. If you can't get Porter, put the Wiz in even more cap hell.

even worse, they don't match.

Porter is 23 years old, healthy, was a #3 pick and shot over 43 percent from beyond the arc last year. That was 5th overall in the entire NBA. He averaged one less rebound per 36 than Olynyk.

Pretty good consolation prize if you can't get Hayward IMHO. I'll certainly take Porter over Gallinari.

In a perfect world of course but I don't think he's worth a max deal. Plus Washington needs to match whatever he's offered anyways otherwise they're kind of stuck. Unless they think Oubre is a good replacement or they're able to move Mahimni and Gortat.

[Curmudgeon]

even worse, they don't match.

Porter is 23 years old, healthy, was a #3 pick and shot over 43 percent from beyond the arc last year. That was 5th overall in the entire NBA. He averaged one less rebound per 36 than Olynyk.

Pretty good consolation prize if you can't get Hayward IMHO. I'll certainly take Porter over Gallinari.

In a perfect world of course but I don't think he's worth a max deal. Plus Washington needs to match whatever he's offered anyways otherwise they're kind of stuck. Unless they think Oubre is a good replacement or they're able to move Mahimni and Gortat.

You are contradicting yourself. If W#ashington needs to match, offer Porter a max deal. He may not be worth it, but that's Washington's problem if they match. Are you saying "Washington has to match but maybe they won't?"

[brackdan70]

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q28

By the way -- I presume there's no useful site directly based on the most recent CBA, or people would be referring to it ore often.

But is there at least a reliable list somewhere of the changes since the 2011 deal?

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/01/20/detailed-summary-of-changes-under-the-nbas-new-collective-bargaining-agreement/

this is not bad but I think a little incomplete.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Porter is 23 years old, healthy, was a #3 pick and shot over 43 percent from beyond the arc last year. That was 5th overall in the entire NBA. He averaged one less rebound per 36 than Olynyk.

Pretty good consolation prize if you can't get Hayward IMHO. I'll certainly take Porter over Gallinari.

In a perfect world of course but I don't think he's worth a max deal. Plus Washington needs to match whatever he's offered anyways otherwise they're kind of stuck. Unless they think Oubre is a good replacement or they're able to move Mahimni and Gortat.

You are contradicting yourself. If W#ashington needs to match, offer Porter a max deal. He may not be worth it, but that's Washington's problem if they match. Are you saying "Washington has to match but maybe they won't?"

We don't want to tie up our cap sheet by renouncing everyone, given potential sign-and-trade options or back-up plans, in order to sign Otto Porter to a max offer. It's a problem even if Washington matches, and if they don't, we don't want to give Porter a max.