Trade/Free Agency Thread, whose NINE is it anyways?? 2023-24

[Hal14]

Anunoby is a good player but he is not a shot creator.

Nobody said he was. Also, as I already posted...

Spoiler:

Not as good as JB as a shot creator, sure. But so many of JB's shot creation attempts end in failure - especially in key moments (in playoffs, in crunch time) when he forces shots, dribbles into driving lanes that aren't there, fails to pass to an open teammate, dribbles it off his foot, etc. I'd rather have the guy who is more of a team player than an iso guy who is not very efficient. But that's just me. We're both entitled to our opinions.

Again, OG is also a year younger so could certainly still get better as a shot creator. That's not really what this team needs, though. Look at Denver this season and Golden state the year before. They won championships by moving the ball, working as a team - not all of this iso, my turn your turn BS with 1 of the guys thinking he's as good as the other star player when he's not.

Miami who just beat us in the ECF. They only had 1 guy who could create his own shot, Butler. Iso basketball is not winning basketball. You win by working as a team and moving the ball, playing defense. OG is a much better defender than JB

[Hal14]

Well, if you look at the stats, Brown is a better rebounder but Anunoby led the league in steals. I'll take Anunoby at half the price. Once again, I'd be happy to keep Brown around for Anunoby's money, but not for the supermax.

But it's moot because if you could offer Brown for Anunoby straight up the Raptors would say no.

With guys like Dillon Brooks making around $22 million, and FVV making around $43 million, is doubtful OG is half the price of Jaylen.

Yeah and everyone has mocked and ridiculed the rockets for paying that kind of money for those guys.

The rockets are also in a very different situation since they had cap space coming out of their ears so they could afford to overpay those guys.

A more apples to apples comparison is the extension we just gave Porzingis for $30 mil a year. As I already posted, we could try and get OG to sign for about that same amount. We'd tell him that we're not paying him more, since he's just the #3 guy here. But we'll give him about the same amount, since he's an elite defender, a little younger than Porzingis and less injury history.

[sam_I_am]

OG is the 5th option on a borderline lottery team. JB is the second option on a perennial ECF team. I like OG as a player but let’s be serious. The last thing this team needs is to follow OKC example of Harden for Jeremy Lamb and Kevin Martin.

[hugepatsfan]

Anunoby is a good player but he is not a shot creator.

Nobody said he was

Right, but people have argued we don't need a shot creator. And in the rest of my post I outlined why we might still need one. Because people focus so much on the trio of Tatum/KP/Brown but...

Let's say Tatum plays 40 minutes per game in the playoffs. Let's say Porzingis plays 32 like he has in his past playoff series. That means there is a combined 24 minutes per game - HALF THE TIME - that we're going to be playing with one on the floor and not the other. So for half the game, Brown or OG isn't going to be your #3, they'll be your #2. And going from Brown's ability to create shots for himself to OG is a more significant loss when you look through the lens of a second scorer vs. third option.

[Hal14]

Anunoby is a good player but he is not a shot creator.

Nobody said he was

Right, but people have argued we don't need a shot creator. And in the rest of my post I outlined why we might still need one. Because people focus so much on the trio of Tatum/KP/Brown but...

Let's say Tatum plays 40 minutes per game in the playoffs. Let's say Porzingis plays 32 like he has in his past playoff series. That means there is a combined 24 minutes per game - HALF THE TIME - that we're going to be playing with one on the floor and not the other. So for half the game, Brown or OG isn't going to be your #3, they'll be your #2. And going from Brown's ability to create shots for himself to OG is a more significant loss when you look through the lens of a second scorer vs. third option.

Ok, but the Nuggets just won the championship and their #3 option was Aaron Gordon.

We just got beat by the Heat, who's #3 option was Caleb Martin.

We lost in the finals to the warriors, who's number 3 option was Andrew Wiggins.

The bucks won the 2021 NBA title, with Jrue Holiday as the #3 option.

These guys aren't exactly elite shot creators or offensive machines, are they?

Also, none of these guys are making $60 mil a year, are they?

Do you really want keep this guy on the team with a 31% usage rate?

Watch on YouTube

[Celts17Pride]

[chrisab123]

Well, if you look at the stats, Brown is a better rebounder but Anunoby led the league in steals. I'll take Anunoby at half the price. Once again, I'd be happy to keep Brown around for Anunoby's money, but not for the supermax.

But it's moot because if you could offer Brown for Anunoby straight up the Raptors would say no.

With guys like Dillon Brooks making around $22 million, and FVV making around $43 million, is doubtful OG is half the price of Jaylen.

People were praising Ime for not going after Harden but those FVV and Brooks contracts are hideous

I think Brooks will come close to living up to that deal. Remember all the stuff with Brooks happened because he got on LeBron's bad side during a series. It shows how much power the perception of pissing off the King has in the league. LeBron also co owns Klutch (shhhhh)and Silver doesn't care about that because Stern didn't either. Brooks is a solid player overall. FVV is good but that's a lot of coin.

[165bows]

If OG is your third option, your offense will stink.

He's been scoring around 16-17 PPG on good efficiency. That's solid, imo. Brogdon was our third option last season and he only averaged like 14 PPG.

Plus, OG isn't even in his prime yet - he's still getting better. And his efficiency would likely get even better when playing alongside Tatum and Porzingis, as opposed to the horrible spacing they had in Toronto.

I'd rather have the 3rd option who might have lower volume, but does it on higher efficiency, while playing much better defense.

Also side note but highest usage of Kristaps has been 25.8 and he's usually in the 23-24 range.

Nope. Porzingis last season was 27% usage. Before that he had seasons with 29.5, 26.5, 27 and 31.

Yeah Jaylen shouldnt have 30% usage, thats fairly obvious but Anunoby not being able to crack above 20% usage is a bad thing, not a good thing. You need guys to actually do stuff offensively as your third option and OG cannot.

OG is an adequate 3rd option, IMO. He certainly can "do stuff". He's a good cutter, can hit spot up 3's, even some 3's off the dribble, good at attacking closeouts, good at finishing in transition, good at finishing in dunker's spot.

Not as good as JB as a shot creator, sure. But so many of JB's shot creation attempts end in failure - especially in key moments (in playoffs, in crunch time) when he forces shots, dribbles into driving lanes that aren't there, fails to pass to an open teammate, dribbles it off his foot, etc. I'd rather have the guy who is more of a team player than an iso guy who is not very efficient. But that's just me. We're both entitled to our opinions.

Again, OG is also a year younger so could certainly still get better as a shot creator. That's not really what this team needs, though. Look at Denver this season and Golden state the year before. They won championships by moving the ball, working as a team - not all of this iso, my turn your turn BS with 1 of the guys thinking he's as good as the other star player when he's not.

OG was just the 4th option in usage on the Raptors and they managed a whopping 25th place in half court offense.

So what? That's not OG's fault. No one on that Toronto team could shoot - except for OG, of course

And Nurse pretty much gave up coaching them halfway through the season.

He’s an average efficiency, average volume/usage, low shot creating guy. That’s fine if Zinger just builds from here on at least maintains. If he regresses it becomes Tatum and a bunch of dudes on offense which as we’ve seen is a deep playoff team but not a title winner.

[Triple7]

There's no right or wrong. It's my opinion. Am I not entitled to express my opinion?

Do you have anything of substance to back up your opinion?

Ill sub in. Since you were quoting EPM. lets look at those ratings. More specifically at offensive EPM. OG has a career high of 0.6 o-epm and last year he was a 0. OG's value entirely comes on the defensive end. He's closer to grant williams in offense than jaylen. Not quite as low usage and limited but not too far off. If you wanna talk TS, they had equal ts combined over the last 3 season with last year being equal and the previous 2 one being in favor of jaylen and the other OG. That is despite the fact that OG tops out at 20% usage and Jaylen does 30%. A huge difference, i'd bet you my left arm OG's ts would drop off dramatically if he were forced to absorb more usage. Something we can see if we look at lineups where FVV doesnt play and OG has a bigger role, the raptors offense falls of a cliff. Same with Siakam off, FVV and OG on btw.

Saying you prefer og on 30 mil vs jaylen on 60 mil is fine, its whatever. But they are not close to a similarly talented player offensively at all. OG cannot be a third option for a good offensive team

I agree.

Brown is a superior offensive player.


But the debate is, can OG be a more significant player if given as much opportunity as Brown.

Right now OG is 100% superior defensively, and IMO the gap is pretty substantial. Could OG be a more productive offensive player as a 2nd option though.

OG has never SNIFFED at Jaylens usage. OGs highest season was 20.5 and Browns LOWEST was 18.1
Last season OG had a usage of 19.5 compared to Browns 31.5.

Per 100 Jaylen scores 36ppg on 28shots or 1.28 points per shot
Per 100 OG Scorers 23 on 18shots or 1.27 points per shot

an arguement can be made that with more attempts and opportunity OGs efficiency goes down, but it looks like his efficiency is on par with Jaylens. OG is a superior shooter, so perhaps that efficiency stays with increased opportunity.


Also Browns Turnover per 100 is 4
OGs is 2.7

I like OG a lot personally. I think he is a better FIT for the team right now with Tatum and KP on it. Would be lethal defensively too.

I also like OG at 20-30 million more than Jaylen at 50-60 million

White
OG
Tatum
Porzingas
Timelord

I agree. 60M to brown is just too much. Maybe during last years regular season, i would laugh at this, but seeing Jaylen can’t step up when needed in the playoffs, doesn’t justify paying him the smax, despite getting 2nd team all nba. I tell you, that’s the last time he’ll get an award as a celtic. He got exposed hard against the heat. Getting outplayed by Caleb Martin lol.

[ddb]

The fact that people are comparing OG to Jaylen is downright embarrassing. I don't care if OG was on a minimum and Jaylen is supermaxed. Jaylen is the much better player, and the player you'd rather have on your team. Period. There's no debate. No stats. Nothing to draw comparisons of the two. Simply put, if you replaced JB with OG, you're a worse basketball team.

[zoyathedestroya]

Can we at least turn that horse into glue so I could sniff it?

[BK_2020]

The fact that people are comparing OG to Jaylen is downright embarrassing. I don't care if OG was on a minimum and Jaylen is supermaxed. Jaylen is the much better player, and the player you'd rather have on your team. Period. There's no debate. No stats. Nothing to draw comparisons of the two. Simply put, if you replaced JB with OG, you're a worse basketball team.

Last season, when you replaced JB with Celtics bench scrubs, the Celtics were 6.2 points better per 100. Now imagine you replace him with OG instead!

[chrisab123]

The fact that people are comparing OG to Jaylen is downright embarrassing. I don't care if OG was on a minimum and Jaylen is supermaxed. Jaylen is the much better player, and the player you'd rather have on your team. Period. There's no debate. No stats. Nothing to draw comparisons of the two. Simply put, if you replaced JB with OG, you're a worse basketball team.

Why are you surprised? Just curious. 75% of this board has wanted Brown/Brogdon gone since Smart got traded. You even had a thread posted on this board asking people who would they rather keep, Brown or Marcus Smart and Smart got quite a few votes. There's three types of fans that want to trade Brown on this board.

Fans that are obsessed about Wyc's bank account and check book
Marcus Smart Stans that for some reason blame Brown for him being gone even though Marcus said they had no beef and thus will give Brown away for spare parts just because...
People who think that Brown will demand a trade.

I'm more of the third option where he's probably going to demand a trade. But say they max him out and he has a career year and then asks out next year. Wouldn't you get a package better than what you would this offseason? He'd have term on his contract and would be All NBA again and would still be young. This is why trading him now for 70 cents on the dollar doesn't make any sense.

[darrendaye]

Assuming extensions, picking up options and projecting our picks to fall at the same slots they did this year...

Kristaps Porzingis 28,846,154
Jayson Tatum 34,848,340
Jaylen Brown 50,050,000
Malcolm Brogdon 22,500,000
Derrick White 19,571,429
Robert Williams III 12,428,571
Al Horford 9,500,000
Oshae Brissett 2,463,946
Dalano Banton 2,196,970
Sam Hauser 2,092,344
Jordan Walsh 1,891,857
2024 GSW 1st round pick (proj. #19) 3,499,800
2024 BOS 1st round pick (proj. #29) 2,538,000

Total 192,427,411

Depends on what happens with the pick, but seems relatively easy to duck the 2nd apron. Brogdon as an expiring next year will be way easier to move in a cost saving deal. Can always deal that second 1st back into the 2nd to get a lower rookie deal. Maybe GSW has a better year and that pick is later/cheaper.

I feel like the only thing that would really inhibit our ability to duck the 2nd apron next year with reasonable moves would be if that GSW pick (or our own) end up way higher. Which would be a first world problem lol

There isn't much financial ability to add here, so I get concern about that. But there isn't much actual on-court time to add either. If we want someone to add, we need to subtract to make the room. We have a good rotation. I think we're past the stage of "easy" acquisitions where it's just filler salary and future picks. If we want to add now, it's going to be offset by a good piece going off the roster too. We're at a place of marginally upgrading a good rotation player to a better one. vs. straight adding a player to the rotation, IMO.

Well done. Agree on Brogdon, plus better able to line up a pick forward trade package and open an MLE slot to backfill if needed.

[Triple7]

The fact that people are comparing OG to Jaylen is downright embarrassing. I don't care if OG was on a minimum and Jaylen is supermaxed. Jaylen is the much better player, and the player you'd rather have on your team. Period. There's no debate. No stats. Nothing to draw comparisons of the two. Simply put, if you replaced JB with OG, you're a worse basketball team.

I agree. There is no comparison. Only thing positive you can get from OG, is he’s a lot cheaper. Plus, he’s also a wing, so i don’t think he fits better with JT. The only time a wing would fit well with Jt, is if that wing is dead set shooter. I still want Brown Traded, but not for OG. For siakam? Maybe.

[Celts17Pride]

Ill sub in. Since you were quoting EPM. lets look at those ratings. More specifically at offensive EPM. OG has a career high of 0.6 o-epm and last year he was a 0. OG's value entirely comes on the defensive end. He's closer to grant williams in offense than jaylen. Not quite as low usage and limited but not too far off. If you wanna talk TS, they had equal ts combined over the last 3 season with last year being equal and the previous 2 one being in favor of jaylen and the other OG. That is despite the fact that OG tops out at 20% usage and Jaylen does 30%. A huge difference, i'd bet you my left arm OG's ts would drop off dramatically if he were forced to absorb more usage. Something we can see if we look at lineups where FVV doesnt play and OG has a bigger role, the raptors offense falls of a cliff. Same with Siakam off, FVV and OG on btw.

Saying you prefer og on 30 mil vs jaylen on 60 mil is fine, its whatever. But they are not close to a similarly talented player offensively at all. OG cannot be a third option for a good offensive team

I agree.

Brown is a superior offensive player.


But the debate is, can OG be a more significant player if given as much opportunity as Brown.

Right now OG is 100% superior defensively, and IMO the gap is pretty substantial. Could OG be a more productive offensive player as a 2nd option though.

OG has never SNIFFED at Jaylens usage. OGs highest season was 20.5 and Browns LOWEST was 18.1
Last season OG had a usage of 19.5 compared to Browns 31.5.

Per 100 Jaylen scores 36ppg on 28shots or 1.28 points per shot
Per 100 OG Scorers 23 on 18shots or 1.27 points per shot

an arguement can be made that with more attempts and opportunity OGs efficiency goes down, but it looks like his efficiency is on par with Jaylens. OG is a superior shooter, so perhaps that efficiency stays with increased opportunity.


Also Browns Turnover per 100 is 4
OGs is 2.7

I like OG a lot personally. I think he is a better FIT for the team right now with Tatum and KP on it. Would be lethal defensively too.

I also like OG at 20-30 million more than Jaylen at 50-60 million

White
OG
Tatum
Porzingas
Timelord

I agree. 60M to brown is just too much. Maybe during last years regular season, i would laugh at this, but seeing Jaylen can’t step up when needed in the playoffs, doesn’t justify paying him the smax, despite getting 2nd team all nba. I tell you, that’s the last time he’ll get an award as a celtic. He got exposed hard against the heat. Getting outplayed by Caleb Martin lol.

Jaylen Brown was horrible against the Heat no one can dispute that but Jaylen Brown averaging 25 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54% shooting and 47% three point shooting against the Hawks and Sixers doesn't count?

People don't have to like Jaylen Brown which is fine but comparing him to players like OG, Hunter etc. is just embarrassing.

[GoCeltics123]

I agree.

Brown is a superior offensive player.


But the debate is, can OG be a more significant player if given as much opportunity as Brown.

Right now OG is 100% superior defensively, and IMO the gap is pretty substantial. Could OG be a more productive offensive player as a 2nd option though.

OG has never SNIFFED at Jaylens usage. OGs highest season was 20.5 and Browns LOWEST was 18.1
Last season OG had a usage of 19.5 compared to Browns 31.5.

Per 100 Jaylen scores 36ppg on 28shots or 1.28 points per shot
Per 100 OG Scorers 23 on 18shots or 1.27 points per shot

an arguement can be made that with more attempts and opportunity OGs efficiency goes down, but it looks like his efficiency is on par with Jaylens. OG is a superior shooter, so perhaps that efficiency stays with increased opportunity.


Also Browns Turnover per 100 is 4
OGs is 2.7

I like OG a lot personally. I think he is a better FIT for the team right now with Tatum and KP on it. Would be lethal defensively too.

I also like OG at 20-30 million more than Jaylen at 50-60 million

White
OG
Tatum
Porzingas
Timelord

I agree. 60M to brown is just too much. Maybe during last years regular season, i would laugh at this, but seeing Jaylen can’t step up when needed in the playoffs, doesn’t justify paying him the smax, despite getting 2nd team all nba. I tell you, that’s the last time he’ll get an award as a celtic. He got exposed hard against the heat. Getting outplayed by Caleb Martin lol.

Jaylen Brown was horrible against the Heat no one can dispute that but Jaylen Brown averaging 25 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.5 apg on 54% shooting and 47% three point shooting against the Hawks and Sixers doesn't count?

People don't have to like Jaylen Brown which is fine but comparing him to players like OG, Hunter etc. is just embarrassing.

Yeah Jaylen is very flawed and is really only an elite scorer but guys like OG and Hunter are not in his league

[zoyathedestroya]

Read on Twitter

[ddb]

The fact that people are comparing OG to Jaylen is downright embarrassing. I don't care if OG was on a minimum and Jaylen is supermaxed. Jaylen is the much better player, and the player you'd rather have on your team. Period. There's no debate. No stats. Nothing to draw comparisons of the two. Simply put, if you replaced JB with OG, you're a worse basketball team.

Why are you surprised? Just curious. 75% of this board has wanted Brown/Brogdon gone since Smart got traded. You even had a thread posted on this board asking people who would they rather keep, Brown or Marcus Smart and Smart got quite a few votes. There's three types of fans that want to trade Brown on this board.

Fans that are obsessed about Wyc's bank account and check book
Marcus Smart Stans that for some reason blame Brown for him being gone even though Marcus said they had no beef and thus will give Brown away for spare parts just because...
People who think that Brown will demand a trade.

I'm more of the third option where he's probably going to demand a trade. But say they max him out and he has a career year and then asks out next year. Wouldn't you get a package better than what you would this offseason? He'd have term on his contract and would be All NBA again and would still be young. This is why trading him now for 70 cents on the dollar doesn't make any sense.

I'm not opposed to a Jaylen trade. But not for OG and lesser pieces. I'm down for a Dame type move. Otherwise keep Jaylen around this season and look to move him in the future as part of a bigger trade going after a bigger fish.

[zoyathedestroya]

Read on Twitter

Some team won't be able to resist and will help Pat Riley get his way. Annoying.