Tatum and Brown, as 1-2 Options

[Bar Fight]

You gotta think long term. If Langford shows more promise than Brown this year, signing him to an extension would be a bad move. You can't have a logjam of promising young wings. That does no good for any of them. Brown has to stand out from the pack this season.

You goota think long term.

If Hayward has an excellent career year and jump on another MASSIVE contract at 2020 summer,
There is no logjam of wings.

Eh...with or without Hayward, one of Brown/Tatum/Langford has to go. Ainge isn't paying all three of them to play pretty much the same position. I doubt Hayward has a career year anyway, so it's a moot point. With or without the injury it is unlikely he'd ever match his 2017 season

[Froob]

Lmao

Read on Twitter

[Parliament10]

You gotta think long term. If Langford shows more promise than Brown this year, signing him to an extension would be a bad move. You can't have a logjam of promising young wings. That does no good for any of them. Brown has to stand out from the pack this season.

You goota think long term.

If Hayward has an excellent career year and jump on another MASSIVE contract at 2020 summer,
There is no logjam of wings.

Eh...with or without Hayward, one of Brown/Tatum/Langford has to go. Ainge isn't paying all three of them to play pretty much the same position. I doubt Hayward has a career year anyway, so it's a moot point. With or without the injury it is unlikely he'd ever match his 2017 season

I don't think that's necessarily true. -- It is possible to keep all 4 of them.
They're at different levels. Also, though they all four play the 3, they're all a bit different.

Hayward, is the one with the Bullseye on him. But without Hayward, things get cleared up a bit.

Langford is supposed to be another ball handler (2-3-1).
Brown is a 2-3, w/o the ballhandling.
Tatum is a 3-4, with some better ballhandling (than Brown).

Add to that, that Langford is just a Rookie, and needs to learn the whole scheme, etc, etc.
Tatum, on the other hand, has Always been a Starter.

I think that you keep Brown, for the moment. And, if he shows Any improvement, you re-sign him.

[Bar Fight]

You goota think long term.

If Hayward has an excellent career year and jump on another MASSIVE contract at 2020 summer,
There is no logjam of wings.

Eh...with or without Hayward, one of Brown/Tatum/Langford has to go. Ainge isn't paying all three of them to play pretty much the same position. I doubt Hayward has a career year anyway, so it's a moot point. With or without the injury it is unlikely he'd ever match his 2017 season

I don't think that's necessarily true. -- It is possible to keep all 4 of them.
They're at different levels. Also, though they all four play the 3, they're all a bit different.

Hayward, is the one with the Bullseye on him. But without Hayward, things get cleared up a bit.

Langford is supposed to be another ball handler (2-3-1).
Brown is a 2-3, w/o the ballhandling.
Tatum is a 3-4, with some better ballhandling (than Brown).

Add to that, that Langford is just a Rookie, and needs to learn the whole scheme, etc, etc.
Tatum, on the other hand, has Always been a Starter.

I think that you keep Brown, for the moment. And, if he shows Any improvement, you re-sign him.

Langford's assist/turnover ratio doesn't suggest he can play the 1 consistently. They're all wings who need the ball in their hands to as effective as you'd like and with the exception of maybe Hayward, they're all primarily scorers. I agree you keep Brown and see if he makes a jump, but I think a jump will be necessary for Ainge to re-sign him.

[jmr07019]

GSW did just fine playing Klay, Iggy, Durant and Green (measured at 6' 6'' barefoot) together. That's 4 wings. Our problem isn't too many wings it's that none have been allstar caliber to date. If we get luckier than any of us expect and Brown, Tatum and Hayward all turn into allstars this year there is no problem. Our problem is that Hayward has largely sucked while Brown and Tatum are young and not in their prime. Trade any of our wings for a non all star big and we still lack the top end talent to do anything substantial.

[Triple7]

GSW did just fine playing Klay, Iggy, Durant and Green (measured at 6' 6'' barefoot) together. That's 4 wings. Our problem isn't too many wings it's that none have been allstar caliber to date. If we get luckier than any of us expect and Brown, Tatum and Hayward all turn into allstars this year there is no problem. Our problem is that Hayward has largely sucked while Brown and Tatum are young and not in their prime. Trade any of our wings for a non all star big and we still lack the top end talent to do anything substantial.

I give Hayward a pass last year. Next season he better step up. No more excuses. He should return to form and feel more confident health wise, otherwise, sadly that will be his new norm.

[GuyClinch]

Ainge is going to move someone. The NBA is almost like women's tennis when it comes to age. It's a young man's game. Guys who are going to be stars or superstars show it in their first couple of years. Fan's think the development window lasts until a guy is thirty.. But if by the end of your rookie contract you don't look like a promising player - chances are not..

It's put up or shut up time for Brown. Tatum lost alot of believers last year. And Langford is unknown. that being said it would not be shocking if someone like Langford showed up and played his way onto the squad and into the future. Brown and Tatum really underachieved last year. So there is an opening for another guy to shine..

[Slartibartfast]

GSW did just fine playing Klay, Iggy, Durant and Green (measured at 6' 6'' barefoot) together. That's 4 wings. Our problem isn't too many wings it's that none have been allstar caliber to date. If we get luckier than any of us expect and Brown, Tatum and Hayward all turn into allstars this year there is no problem. Our problem is that Hayward has largely sucked while Brown and Tatum are young and not in their prime. Trade any of our wings for a non all star big and we still lack the top end talent to do anything substantial.

Draymond is not a wing. He guards 4s and 5s at an All-D level. And he sets mean screens and rebounds. He can do legit big man things. And Dray and Iggy are hyper facilitators and have been their whole careers.

Our problem is our wings can't guard most 4s much less 5s and all of them are at their best offensively when they scoring the ball. Hayward the only facilitator of the group and even he is more of a score first guy than Iggy/Dray ever have been.

I think the talent we have is less than the sum of its parts as a result and thus a trade could upgrade us. Agree that we would still lack a truly top end talent barring an epic rip off trade, but balance + good talent can go pretty far. An 04 Detroit or 14 San Antonio build.

[5InOfLouisville]

Who are these unguardable 4s in the modern nba that everybody keeps mentioning? I think smart, brown, Tatum, and Gordon can all guard the position at times, if none is necessarily a PERFECT fit. But again, who are we afraid of?

[Fencer reregistered]

Who are these unguardable 4s in the modern nba that everybody keeps mentioning? I think smart, brown, Tatum, and Gordon can all guard the position at times, if none is necessarily a PERFECT fit. But again, who are we afraid of?

Well, who are some of the scarier offensive 4s?

-- Natural SFs playing with only one big. Obviously, our natural SFs are suited to cover them.
-- Blake Griffin. Didn't Jaylen cover him fairly well?
-- Al Horford.
-- Kristap Porzingis.
-- Lauri Markannen or whatever his name exactly is.
-- Whichever of Bagley, JJJ, et al. play next to centers.
-- LMA, maybe still.
-- Kevin Love.

I don't think height and length matter that much in covering guys jump-shooting. If they're Dirk reborn, nobody is stopping them. If they aren't, a height disadvantage is OK. The real issue is if they're also a major threat to post up, and for some reason you can't switch a bigger guy onto them when they do. .... Uh, I'm not quickly thinking of such a reason ...

[ParticleMan]

Who are these unguardable 4s in the modern nba that everybody keeps mentioning? I think smart, brown, Tatum, and Gordon can all guard the position at times, if none is necessarily a PERFECT fit. But again, who are we afraid of?

agreed. the guys we should be afraid of at the 4 are really just very tall 3's, like KD and zinger. and it would be a total disaster to cover them with a traditional 4. you'll do much better with a guy like tatum or brown, who has the length and footspeed to at least stay with their man and not let them get to the rim at will.

mchale-style go-to post 4's are basically nonexistent today. maybe blake but he's on a crap team anyways so who cares.

[Slartibartfast]

Who are these unguardable 4s in the modern nba that everybody keeps mentioning? I think smart, brown, Tatum, and Gordon can all guard the position at times, if none is necessarily a PERFECT fit. But again, who are we afraid of?

agreed. the guys we should be afraid of at the 4 are really just very tall 3's, like KD and zinger. and it would be a total disaster to cover them with a traditional 4. you'll do much better with a guy like tatum or brown, who has the length and footspeed to at least stay with their man and not let them get to the rim at will.

mchale-style go-to post 4's are basically nonexistent today. maybe blake but he's on a crap team anyways so who cares.

It's not just post D. It's rebounding, help D, rim deterrence. There's a threshold of size and physicality you want from your 4.

Tatum is the closes for us size-wise, but he's skinny and not very physical. Jaylen is powerful, but has a lot of learning to do before he can hack it as a 4. Hayward might have no choice if he slows down further but he has a lot physical deficiencies at the 4.

Putting them up against guys like Giannis, Horford, Blake, Collins and Markannen/Carter to name the toughest covers in conference is to concede a lot of strength/size in the paint. Sometimes that will be exploited on the post, sometimes on the boards, sometimes on the roll, etc.

[G R E Y]

After watching the FIBA WC, preparation and then the games, some thoughts on the Celtics' foursome. You all can speak to the reasons better, but it was clear that whatever dynamic was there two years ago in the playoffs with Irving injured went away with Irving there last season. That's not all on Irving, just that there was a noticeable difference, and he seemed to be a lighting rod for it.

To whatever extent certain guys looked to get more for themselves last season, I think the experience of 1. playing together and 2. so clearly for a purpose that necessitated putting individual 'gets' aside for a larger FIBA WC goal can only help reset and instill getting back to a more team-oriented game going forward.

Kemba looks like he fits right in with the other three guys in terms of personality and then game. Brown is a Swiss army knife type whose game is so versatile, especially who he can guard on D, and Smart is a bulldog whose tenacity fuels a team. The latter two at times took ill advised shots out of team rhythm (3s too early in the shot clock having passed to nobody while guys were moving off ball, for instance), but these were not so glaring as to say they cost any games, and while developing the habit of making the best play is optimal, I minded these shots less when they were after good defensive plays or the games were not close. By and large, the guys bought in, and with their collective skills set, this is a positive.

Tatum, I believe, hasn't begun to scratch his ceiling yet. He's a great talent, if still inconsistent. It's a pity we couldn't see more of his game because of his ankle injury, but I'm intrigued by his skill set. I think going forward consistency in finding ways to impact the game (sometimes he makes an impact, sometimes he disappears) on both ends, and focusing on fundamentals will help him. He had many creative drives that ended up as missed bunnies because of flair finishes. But when this young man puts it all together, watch out. I think I may even be higher on him than some C's fans, but I hope he can turn even the detractors around. And I enjoyed the budding bromance between him and Derrick.

Good luck to your guys. It'll be interesting to see how the FIBA WC experience resonates among them and through the team.

[jmr07019]

GSW did just fine playing Klay, Iggy, Durant and Green (measured at 6' 6'' barefoot) together. That's 4 wings. Our problem isn't too many wings it's that none have been allstar caliber to date. If we get luckier than any of us expect and Brown, Tatum and Hayward all turn into allstars this year there is no problem. Our problem is that Hayward has largely sucked while Brown and Tatum are young and not in their prime. Trade any of our wings for a non all star big and we still lack the top end talent to do anything substantial.

Draymond is not a wing. He guards 4s and 5s at an All-D level. And he sets mean screens and rebounds. He can do legit big man things. And Dray and Iggy are hyper facilitators and have been their whole careers.

Our problem is our wings can't guard most 4s much less 5s and all of them are at their best offensively when they scoring the ball. Hayward the only facilitator of the group and even he is more of a score first guy than Iggy/Dray ever have been.

I think the talent we have is less than the sum of its parts as a result and thus a trade could upgrade us. Agree that we would still lack a truly top end talent barring an epic rip off trade, but balance + good talent can go pretty far. An 04 Detroit or 14 San Antonio build.

I don't disagree with anything you said but I'm less enthusiastic about trying to contend with Kemba and Hayward. I would rather build around Tatum, Brown, Smart and try and contend in a couple years. At that point Tatum will be ready to guard 4's full time and hopefully rebounding better as well.

[Slartibartfast]

GSW did just fine playing Klay, Iggy, Durant and Green (measured at 6' 6'' barefoot) together. That's 4 wings. Our problem isn't too many wings it's that none have been allstar caliber to date. If we get luckier than any of us expect and Brown, Tatum and Hayward all turn into allstars this year there is no problem. Our problem is that Hayward has largely sucked while Brown and Tatum are young and not in their prime. Trade any of our wings for a non all star big and we still lack the top end talent to do anything substantial.

Draymond is not a wing. He guards 4s and 5s at an All-D level. And he sets mean screens and rebounds. He can do legit big man things. And Dray and Iggy are hyper facilitators and have been their whole careers.

Our problem is our wings can't guard most 4s much less 5s and all of them are at their best offensively when they scoring the ball. Hayward the only facilitator of the group and even he is more of a score first guy than Iggy/Dray ever have been.

I think the talent we have is less than the sum of its parts as a result and thus a trade could upgrade us. Agree that we would still lack a truly top end talent barring an epic rip off trade, but balance + good talent can go pretty far. An 04 Detroit or 14 San Antonio build.

I don't disagree with anything you said but I'm less enthusiastic about trying to contend with Kemba and Hayward. I would rather build around Tatum, Brown, Smart and try and contend in a couple years. At that point Tatum will be ready to guard 4's full time and hopefully rebounding better as well.

Yeah, not crazy about the Kemba pathway either but once you've got him you're kinda stuck in it. Even without him, though, we'd probably be considering moving one of JB/Tatum. They are not an ideal fit skillwise at the moment - Tatum will have to really expand his game (more passing & ballhandling, bulking up to play the big positions) to make it work. I feel like we will need to turn one of them into a big no matter what path we commit to.

[jmr07019]

Draymond is not a wing. He guards 4s and 5s at an All-D level. And he sets mean screens and rebounds. He can do legit big man things. And Dray and Iggy are hyper facilitators and have been their whole careers.

Our problem is our wings can't guard most 4s much less 5s and all of them are at their best offensively when they scoring the ball. Hayward the only facilitator of the group and even he is more of a score first guy than Iggy/Dray ever have been.

I think the talent we have is less than the sum of its parts as a result and thus a trade could upgrade us. Agree that we would still lack a truly top end talent barring an epic rip off trade, but balance + good talent can go pretty far. An 04 Detroit or 14 San Antonio build.

I don't disagree with anything you said but I'm less enthusiastic about trying to contend with Kemba and Hayward. I would rather build around Tatum, Brown, Smart and try and contend in a couple years. At that point Tatum will be ready to guard 4's full time and hopefully rebounding better as well.

Yeah, not crazy about the Kemba pathway either but once you've got him you're kinda stuck in it. Even without him, though, we'd probably be considering moving one of JB/Tatum. They are not an ideal fit skillwise at the moment - Tatum will have to really expand his game (more passing & ballhandling, bulking up to play the big positions) to make it work. I feel like we will need to turn one of them into a big no matter what path we commit to.

I’m optimistic on Tatum’s ability to play the 4 just think he needs maybe 2 more off seasons of strength training. He’s made improvements the last 2 years though.

I hope Brown can embrace being a secondary part of the offense. No reason he can’t get 15+ ppg on high efficiency off of 3’s, cuts, transition and mismatches. That coupled with versatile, high end defense is a very valuable player who fits next to pretty much anyone.

[5InOfLouisville]

Even without him, though, we'd probably be considering moving one of JB/Tatum. They are not an ideal fit skillwise at the moment

i disagree. 2 versatile wings that can play and defend multiple positions on the floor seems like a good fit together to me.

Sure, they are both young and have room to grow and we don't know if they will ever reach their lofty ceilings, but Jaylen seems like an excellent complimentary player in any system. He cant consistently create his own office yet, but can attack off the close out/rotation and has shown the ability to hit the open 3.

why do you think they are a bad fit together?

[Slartibartfast]

Even without him, though, we'd probably be considering moving one of JB/Tatum. They are not an ideal fit skillwise at the moment

i disagree. 2 versatile wings that can play and defend multiple positions on the floor seems like a good fit together to me.

Sure, they are both young and have room to grow and we don't know if they will ever reach their lofty ceilings, but Jaylen seems like an excellent complimentary player in any system. He cant consistently create his own office yet, but can attack off the close out/rotation and has shown the ability to hit the open 3.

why do you think they are a bad fit together?

They are a very strong fit defensively. It's just that they both lacking in playmaking. With a playmaking 4/5 like Horford, that can work. But otherwise they will limit the creativity/versatility of your offense. This is what brought down team USA too many scoring combo forwards. Not enough facilitating and ballhandling.

[5InOfLouisville]

That’s not an unfair assessment. I tend to think Tatum has high playmaker potential, but concede that he isn’t there yet. I’m banking on both players improving a considerable amount, but also must admit that this isn’t necessarily a sure thing

[zoyathedestroya]

Read on Twitter

Has anyone won Most Improved, All-Star MVP, regular season MVP, and Finals MVP all in the same year? Not asking for a friend. (I don't have any.)