Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt. 10: Free Agency is in Free Flow

[Homerclease]

Spoiler:

This is the first off-season where I really haven't liked what Danny did/didn't do. Before I've had nitpicks. This year, I fundamentally disagree with the direction.

We're kinda stuck in the middle. Young team with 2 older conceivable all-stars, 2 possible all stars in the making. 3 at the same position. No real tradeable salary to improve during the season. I didn't want to go the Kemba route, but I understand the thinking. What I don't get is if we went that route, why not prepare to improve the team at the deadline? There were no/low cost ways of manipulating transactions in order to add Trey D Ballast, but we didn't do any of them.

For the first time in the last few years, we're not straddling youth and contention. You can't say we're even fringe contenders. We also aren't really super-flexible to add players, which is usually an Ainge hallmark, since we don't have the salaries to allow it. Plus, you've openly declared that a Smart/Brown backcourt isn't the plan long term - after starting each of them for most of one of the previous 2 seasons. And in order to play all your best players, you have to go very small. The team will be fun to watch, could win more games in the regular season even, but ECF is the absolute ceiling. And, that is best case scenario dependent on seeding.

Our non-Kemba roster (even taking the draft and most of the signings as is) could very conceivably have been:

Smart/Brown/Tatum/Harkless/Ed Davis
McConnell/Langford/Igoudola/Williams/RWIII
Edwards/Semi/Theis/Poirier/Yabu
2-ways: Waters, Tacko

Plus 2 first found picks from POR and GSW salary dumps. That is based on real trades we could have had the cap space to make, and signings at salary other teams have made.

That lineup let's you focus more on developing Brown/Tatum, but also have solid veterans up front, along with a couple young bigs. You have 2 perfect salary pieces that contenders could want in trades in Harkless at $11M, Iggy at $17M. Theis & Davis at ~$5M as well. You added 2 first round picks. And your ceiling is just as high as the Kemba-based team - if not a little higher. And your cap looks great for next summer even with Brown signing with the expirings coming off (unless you already traded them for another long term piece).

We had a chance to really reload around Brown & Tatum, but we basically punted it for a short-term retool. I'm very happy to be proven wrong here, but I just don't see anything that really set us up for contention this year, or greased the wheels for it in the future.

Horford leaving made them shift gears, they had to use the space or lose the space now. Brown and Tatum will be due to get paid coming up, not to mention next years free agent class is quite poor. There’s also the desire to stay within striking distance in case another star shakes loose to pair with Kemba. Memphis pick + Brown or Tatum is still a quality haul in a star package.

I get all that, everything I said is after Horford decided to leave. Problem is MEM pick & Brown or Tatum isn't near enough salary. You need to also include Smart and other people. That's why not getting ballast is so important.

They did what they could in paying Theis 5 per. But you’re right, Smart is likely in any trade for a star, and that’s fine. The ground work is laid with Langford, Edwards and Grant waiting in the wings to fill the void

[djFan71]

Spoiler:

Horford leaving made them shift gears, they had to use the space or lose the space now. Brown and Tatum will be due to get paid coming up, not to mention next years free agent class is quite poor. There’s also the desire to stay within striking distance in case another star shakes loose to pair with Kemba. Memphis pick + Brown or Tatum is still a quality haul in a star package.

I get all that, everything I said is after Horford decided to leave. Problem is MEM pick & Brown or Tatum isn't near enough salary. You need to also include Smart and other people. That's why not getting ballast is so important.

They did what they could in paying Theis 5 per. But you’re right, Smart is likely in any trade for a star, and that’s fine. The ground work is laid with Langford, Edwards and Grant waiting in the wings to fill the void

Yeah, it's fine, but not ideal. Esp when you easily could have taken on a $7-10M ballast to make that unnecessary.

[Homerclease]

I get all that, everything I said is after Horford decided to leave. Problem is MEM pick & Brown or Tatum isn't near enough salary. You need to also include Smart and other people. That's why not getting ballast is so important.

They did what they could in paying Theis 5 per. But you’re right, Smart is likely in any trade for a star, and that’s fine. The ground work is laid with Langford, Edwards and Grant waiting in the wings to fill the void

Yeah, it's fine, but not ideal. Esp when you easily could have taken on a $7-10M ballast to make that unnecessary.

But then you don’t have Kemba to pair anybody with

[MagicBagley18]

The only potential or semi realistic candidate for us in the immediate future to me is Beal. Don’t see ainge wanting Westbrook and don’t think he pivots to Blake.

Not sure we even have the assets to outbid people for Beal.

I don’t think you can rule out anything after what we just saw happen, I really think until Davis re-signs, he could leave. Wouldn’t that be delicious..

For sure but he ain’t coming here.

[djFan71]

They did what they could in paying Theis 5 per. But you’re right, Smart is likely in any trade for a star, and that’s fine. The ground work is laid with Langford, Edwards and Grant waiting in the wings to fill the void

Yeah, it's fine, but not ideal. Esp when you easily could have taken on a $7-10M ballast to make that unnecessary.

But then you don’t have Kemba to pair anybody with

I'm talking in the Kemba scenario. If you ordered & setup Rozier's salary right you could have had ~$6.8M in cap to make a trade before getting Kemba. Send Yabu out and take back John Henson or Delly saves CLE a bunch of money and gets us that contract. Then you sign & trade Terry for Kemba as part of the PHO/Baynes deal. Whole thread on it with Zoya and I.

[Homerclease]

Yeah, it's fine, but not ideal. Esp when you easily could have taken on a $7-10M ballast to make that unnecessary.

But then you don’t have Kemba to pair anybody with

I'm talking in the Kemba scenario. If you ordered & setup Rozier's salary right you could have had ~$6.8M in cap to make a trade before getting Kemba. Send Yabu out and take back John Henson or Delly saves CLE a bunch of money and gets us that contract. Then you sign & trade Terry for Kemba as part of the PHO/Baynes deal. Whole thread on it with Zoya and I.

Ah gotcha. I’ll read up

[djFan71]

But then you don’t have Kemba to pair anybody with

I'm talking in the Kemba scenario. If you ordered & setup Rozier's salary right you could have had ~$6.8M in cap to make a trade before getting Kemba. Send Yabu out and take back John Henson or Delly saves CLE a bunch of money and gets us that contract. Then you sign & trade Terry for Kemba as part of the PHO/Baynes deal. Whole thread on it with Zoya and I.

Ah gotcha. I’ll read up

Recap here. lots of false starts and wrong things to get there...
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1864905&start=300#p77323866

To be fair to Danny, the cost to get PHO/CHA to go along might have been higher than he wanted, etc. But, to me it's the cost of keeping Smart out of the next deal. Probably giving up the 2nd we got from CHA, giving the one we sent to PHO, maybe?

[Celtics_Champs]

I feel like Ainge is going to trade Hayward and a pick for Westbrook.

I could talk myself into Kemba thriving off screens and Westbrook turning into a guard Draymond Green with a smaller scoring load, but I really fear we do this.

Yup I thought the same thing.

I don’t want this but wouldn’t hate it. To me it would signify Ainge knows something about Hayward and wants out of his deal.

I understand Westbrook’s is longer but he may feel he can get Westbrook in here for a year to play well then sell him off. Sort of like DAR and the warriors.

No smoke yet tho. Really depends on what Ainge thinks of Gordo.

[aim2please]

This is the first off-season where I really haven't liked what Danny did/didn't do. Before I've had nitpicks. This year, I fundamentally disagree with the direction.

We're kinda stuck in the middle. Young team with 2 older conceivable all-stars, 2 possible all stars in the making. 3 at the same position. No real tradeable salary to improve during the season. I didn't want to go the Kemba route, but I understand the thinking. What I don't get is if we went that route, why not prepare to improve the team at the deadline? There were no/low cost ways of manipulating transactions in order to add Trey D Ballast, but we didn't do any of them.

For the first time in the last few years, we're not straddling youth and contention. You can't say we're even fringe contenders. We also aren't really super-flexible to add players, which is usually an Ainge hallmark, since we don't have the salaries to allow it. Plus, you've openly declared that a Smart/Brown backcourt isn't the plan long term - after starting each of them for most of one of the previous 2 seasons. And in order to play all your best players, you have to go very small. The team will be fun to watch, could win more games in the regular season even, but ECF is the absolute ceiling. And, that is best case scenario dependent on seeding.

Our non-Kemba roster (even taking the draft and most of the signings as is) could very conceivably have been:

Smart/Brown/Tatum/Harkless/Ed Davis
McConnell/Langford/Igoudola/Williams/RWIII
Edwards/Semi/Theis/Poirier/Yabu
2-ways: Waters, Tacko

Plus 2 first found picks from POR and GSW salary dumps. That is based on real trades we could have had the cap space to make, and signings at salary other teams have made.

That lineup let's you focus more on developing Brown/Tatum, but also have solid veterans up front, along with a couple young bigs. You have 2 perfect salary pieces that contenders could want in trades in Harkless at $11M, Iggy at $17M. Theis & Davis at ~$5M as well. You added 2 first round picks. And your ceiling is just as high as the Kemba-based team - if not a little higher. And your cap looks great for next summer even with Brown signing with the expirings coming off (unless you already traded them for another long term piece).

We had a chance to really reload around Brown & Tatum, but we basically punted it for a short-term retool. I'm very happy to be proven wrong here, but I just don't see anything that really set us up for contention this year, or greased the wheels for it in the future.

I know people will say 'look what the kids did two years ago', but a team built around Tatum and Brown is a 40 win team. I didn't wanna say it out loud, but Tatum might end up being Tobias Harris, good but not great player. I'm still hopeful he might take the next step.

I'm not a believer in Brown so I won't even comment on him. IMO, one of the most overrated young players in the league. Wings that get their value from volume shooting and don't do anything else are generally bad contracts. Would love to be wrong on him, don't think it will happen.

That team you posted above would have zero creation and would end up killing Tatum's and Brown's efficiency even further. I don't wanna harp on it, but what separates good from elite wings is the ability to create GOOD shots for themselves or their team.

Tatum go-to move is pull-up midrange shot, doesn't get to the FT line at all. So far in his career, his best shots, efficiency wise, are catch and shot 3 after someone penetrates and kicks out after D collapses, or him attacking closeout after that same penetrate and kick out action.

Kemba is a perfect guy to get him his best shots. Now imagine if he has to take 20 shots a game with Smart as starting PG. Half of them would be mid-range pull-ups.

Brown's ball handling is horrid. Unless there is a straight line drive available he'll just turn it over or jack it up. His lack of basketball IQ and tunnel vision are massive obstacles of him every becoming anything more than a 3&D guy - which would be completely fine.. but he refuses to play that role. If you don't believe me, go on basketball reference and find wings that averaged more TOs than assists in their first three seasons. Bunch of bums.

[ZeroTolerance]

Celtics need to dump Yabu and bring in JaMychal Green for the final roster spot. Lock up Waters and Tacko on two way deals and roll with it

I like green too.. but I don't think we can afford him....And I suspect rookie Grant Williams will get some time....So it's a long shot at best that Green would end up here for that small money....

[Darthlukey]

Celtics need to dump Yabu and bring in JaMychal Green for the final roster spot. Lock up Waters and Tacko on two way deals and roll with it

I like green too.. but I don't think we can afford him....And I suspect rookie Grant Williams will get some time....So it's a long shot at best that Green would end up here for that small money....

The clippers fans are pretty high on bringing him back too

[aim2please]

So basically, this is plan Z. Lets get 29y old 3rd team all-NBA guy that suddenly became available.

Tatum having a bad year kills this rebuild. Even if he doesn't take the next step, he needs to put up good numbers to keep the value for when the next AD becomes available. Kemba will make him look much better. And if Tatum does take the next step, with Kemba on board you have a chance to compete to win the East.

[GoGreen]

We really need some size. Kanter is nice, but trotting out an undersized, rookie pf in Grant Williams, an unnatural pf in Hayward (and undersized), a clearly not ready for the spotlight Robert Williams, and an undersized Daniel Theis coming off a mediocre year thanks to that injury...

There's a lot of question marks there.

[Triple7]

Bulpett said Danny wasn't done making changes, right? Assuming he's correct, wonder what else is out there.

I think a lot could depend on what Toronto will do now. They still have a nice roster, but if Masai decides it's time to rebuild... boy... Ibaka would fit in perfectly here. Same with Gasol.

Isn’t that Ainge’s story all the time? Don’t think he’s ever that content. Ibaka’s salary is huge, not sure we could match if. He’d def add toughness. Reminds me of Perk in that aspect.

Ibaka’s rim protection made a lot of difference against the bucks. Would not hurt that he also has decent to good midrange and inside game. He would have been a perfect fit if not for his salary.

[sam_I_am]

This is the first off-season where I really haven't liked what Danny did/didn't do. Before I've had nitpicks. This year, I fundamentally disagree with the direction.

We're kinda stuck in the middle. Young team with 2 older conceivable all-stars, 2 possible all stars in the making. 3 at the same position. No real tradeable salary to improve during the season. I didn't want to go the Kemba route, but I understand the thinking. What I don't get is if we went that route, why not prepare to improve the team at the deadline? There were no/low cost ways of manipulating transactions in order to add Trey D Ballast, but we didn't do any of them.

For the first time in the last few years, we're not straddling youth and contention. You can't say we're even fringe contenders. We also aren't really super-flexible to add players, which is usually an Ainge hallmark, since we don't have the salaries to allow it. Plus, you've openly declared that a Smart/Brown backcourt isn't the plan long term - after starting each of them for most of one of the previous 2 seasons. And in order to play all your best players, you have to go very small. The team will be fun to watch, could win more games in the regular season even, but ECF is the absolute ceiling. And, that is best case scenario dependent on seeding.

Our non-Kemba roster (even taking the draft and most of the signings as is) could very conceivably have been:

Smart/Brown/Tatum/Harkless/Ed Davis
McConnell/Langford/Igoudola/Williams/RWIII
Edwards/Semi/Theis/Poirier/Yabu
2-ways: Waters, Tacko

Plus 2 first found picks from POR and GSW salary dumps. That is based on real trades we could have had the cap space to make, and signings at salary other teams have made.

That lineup let's you focus more on developing Brown/Tatum, but also have solid veterans up front, along with a couple young bigs. You have 2 perfect salary pieces that contenders could want in trades in Harkless at $11M, Iggy at $17M. Theis & Davis at ~$5M as well. You added 2 first round picks. And your ceiling is just as high as the Kemba-based team - if not a little higher. And your cap looks great for next summer even with Brown signing with the expirings coming off (unless you already traded them for another long term piece).

We had a chance to really reload around Brown & Tatum, but we basically punted it for a short-term retool. I'm very happy to be proven wrong here, but I just don't see anything that really set us up for contention this year, or greased the wheels for it in the future.

I know people will say 'look what the kids did two years ago', but a team built around Tatum and Brown is a 40 win team. I didn't wanna say it out loud, but Tatum might end up being Tobias Harris, good but not great player. I'm still hopeful he might take the next step.

I'm not a believer in Brown so I won't even comment on him. IMO, one of the most overrated young players in the league. Wings that get their value from volume shooting and don't do anything else are generally bad contracts. Would love to be wrong on him, don't think it will happen.

That team you posted above would have zero creation and would end up killing Tatum's and Brown's efficiency even further. I don't wanna harp on it, but what separates good from elite wings is the ability to create GOOD shots for themselves or their team.

Tatum go-to move is pull-up midrange shot, doesn't get to the FT line at all. So far in his career, his best shots, efficiency wise, are catch and shot 3 after someone penetrates and kicks out after D collapses, or him attacking closeout after that same penetrate and kick out action.

Kemba is a perfect guy to get him his best shots. Now imagine if he has to take 20 shots a game with Smart as starting PG. Half of them would be mid-range pull-ups.

Brown's ball handling is horrid. Unless there is a straight line drive available he'll just turn it over or jack it up. His lack of basketball IQ and tunnel vision are massive obstacles of him every becoming anything more than a 3&D guy - which would be completely fine.. but he refuses to play that role. If you don't believe me, go on basketball reference and find wings that averaged more TOs than assists in their first three seasons. Bunch of bums.

Brown is 22. At that age PG and KL were averaging single digits in playoffs. Players actually can develop a more rounded game. Despite the limitations you suggest, Brown averaged 18, 5, 1.4 as a 21 yo shooting 39% from 3 as a starter in playoffs 2018 and this year in a lesser role still averaged about 14 ppg. almost twice what KL and PG did at same age.

You guys are too quick to write him off. With Tatum clearly being better, it isn’t necessary for Jaylen to really change what he already is. His 3+D and a little bit more game is playoff tested and proven.

[OldCeltics]

This is the first off-season where I really haven't liked what Danny did/didn't do. Before I've had nitpicks. This year, I fundamentally disagree with the direction.

We're kinda stuck in the middle. Young team with 2 older conceivable all-stars, 2 possible all stars in the making. 3 at the same position. No real tradeable salary to improve during the season. I didn't want to go the Kemba route, but I understand the thinking. What I don't get is if we went that route, why not prepare to improve the team at the deadline? There were no/low cost ways of manipulating transactions in order to add Trey D Ballast, but we didn't do any of them.

For the first time in the last few years, we're not straddling youth and contention. You can't say we're even fringe contenders. We also aren't really super-flexible to add players, which is usually an Ainge hallmark, since we don't have the salaries to allow it. Plus, you've openly declared that a Smart/Brown backcourt isn't the plan long term - after starting each of them for most of one of the previous 2 seasons. And in order to play all your best players, you have to go very small. The team will be fun to watch, could win more games in the regular season even, but ECF is the absolute ceiling. And, that is best case scenario dependent on seeding.

Our non-Kemba roster (even taking the draft and most of the signings as is) could very conceivably have been:

Smart/Brown/Tatum/Harkless/Ed Davis
McConnell/Langford/Igoudola/Williams/RWIII
Edwards/Semi/Theis/Poirier/Yabu
2-ways: Waters, Tacko

Plus 2 first found picks from POR and GSW salary dumps. That is based on real trades we could have had the cap space to make, and signings at salary other teams have made.

That lineup let's you focus more on developing Brown/Tatum, but also have solid veterans up front, along with a couple young bigs. You have 2 perfect salary pieces that contenders could want in trades in Harkless at $11M, Iggy at $17M. Theis & Davis at ~$5M as well. You added 2 first round picks. And your ceiling is just as high as the Kemba-based team - if not a little higher. And your cap looks great for next summer even with Brown signing with the expirings coming off (unless you already traded them for another long term piece).

We had a chance to really reload around Brown & Tatum, but we basically punted it for a short-term retool. I'm very happy to be proven wrong here, but I just don't see anything that really set us up for contention this year, or greased the wheels for it in the future.

I know people will say 'look what the kids did two years ago', but a team built around Tatum and Brown is a 40 win team. I didn't wanna say it out loud, but Tatum might end up being Tobias Harris, good but not great player. I'm still hopeful he might take the next step.

I'm not a believer in Brown so I won't even comment on him. IMO, one of the most overrated young players in the league. Wings that get their value from volume shooting and don't do anything else are generally bad contracts. Would love to be wrong on him, don't think it will happen.

That team you posted above would have zero creation and would end up killing Tatum's and Brown's efficiency even further. I don't wanna harp on it, but what separates good from elite wings is the ability to create GOOD shots for themselves or their team.

Tatum go-to move is pull-up midrange shot, doesn't get to the FT line at all. So far in his career, his best shots, efficiency wise, are catch and shot 3 after someone penetrates and kicks out after D collapses, or him attacking closeout after that same penetrate and kick out action.

Kemba is a perfect guy to get him his best shots. Now imagine if he has to take 20 shots a game with Smart as starting PG. Half of them would be mid-range pull-ups.

Brown's ball handling is horrid. Unless there is a straight line drive available he'll just turn it over or jack it up. His lack of basketball IQ and tunnel vision are massive obstacles of him every becoming anything more than a 3&D guy - which would be completely fine.. but he refuses to play that role. If you don't believe me, go on basketball reference and find wings that averaged more TOs than assists in their first three seasons. Bunch of bums.

Brown is 22. At that age PG and KL were averaging single digits in playoffs. Players actually can develop a more rounded game. Despite the limitations you suggest, Brown averaged 18, 5, 1.4 as a 21 yo shooting 39% from 3 as a starter in playoffs 2018 and this year in a lesser role still averaged about 14 ppg. almost twice what KL and PG did at same age.

You guys are too quick to write him off. With Tatum clearly being better, it isn’t necessary for Jaylen to really change what he already is. His 3+D and a little bit more game is playoff tested and proven.

Past 2 playoffs, Jaylen Brown has been top 3 on this team in scoring. Tatum definitely has the higher potential. But Brown has been much more consistent in the playoffs, and really our scoring leader.

His defense, and handle is slowly improving.

Last year he was the scape goat. But in the playoffs, he stepped up once again, with solid defense, leading the scoring, and he actually drives to the rim unlike the others.

[Celts17Pride]

I feel like Ainge is going to trade Hayward and a pick for Westbrook.

I could talk myself into Kemba thriving off screens and Westbrook turning into a guard Draymond Green with a smaller scoring load, but I really fear we do this.

I don’t think Ainge wants Westbrook but I wouldn’t be surprised if Ainge got in the middle of a Hou/OKC/Bos three way trade and moving one of Hayward or Brown to nab Capela or Adams plus others.

Why the Rockets want Westbrook is beyond me. Ainge will be there for a three teamer.

[Bohemian]

Are the signings of Kanter, Poirier, Theis and Wanamaker still not official?

[Celts17Pride]

Are the signings of Kanter, Poirier, Theis and Wanamaker still not official?

Don’t believe so

[chakdaddy]

Tyson chandler for min?