Trade/Free Agency Thread, whose NINE is it anyways?? 2023-24

[Hal14]

I'd swear this is the football section of RealGM with the constant moving of the goalposts from the anti-JB contingent.

I'm late to this conversation. Where are the goalposts supposed to be? I'm not sure where they moved from, but to me is he worth a max? Is this the best way to maximize the roster? That to me is the questions.

There's an example just a few posts back re JB's overall league ranking.

These league rankings?

BPM: 66th in the league
EPM: 46th
RAPTOR: 76th
PIE: 66th
TS%: 106th

You're right, let's make him the highest paid player in NBA history.

[pac213up]

Celtics currently have not sacrificed anything concerning depth but just keep on saying it.

I keep scratching my head wondering what this depth issue is, especially with such a strong starting 5.

[steefP2]

The question is whether or not Jaylen Brown is good enough at basketball so that you are willing to sacrifice your quality depth to fit him into your cap as a max player. In my view he is not.

Exactly!

What depth are we talking about ? Not resigning grant ? Most likely getting off brogdon next year. Not sure the first is brown related but maybe. Idk I’m good with that “sacrifice”. But grant being gone is a result of going from smart to kp; there’s your 15 mil difference in salary

[Triple7]

I’d give him the full max with team and individual incentives towards a super - like, we win a championship, he makes first team all NBA, second team, third.. I’m ok with supermax money if he delivers supermax performance

Only superstars should get the supermax, unless its a number two that clearly fits well with your number 1. Say like jamal murray. He fits well like a glove with Jokic, so you pay that guy. JAylen doesn’t fit well with JT. If you pay Jaylen the smax, then we are stuck with him. The Jays should start learning to play off each other, and not just take turns in offense.

Supposedly Jaylen thinks he and Tatum are equals. Scottie Pippen complex. Except Pippen was underpaid and underrated and Jaylen has been appropriately paid and slightly overrated.

You can’t blame the guy for thinking that lol. Tatum is clearly better skills wise but doesn’t show up every game, and Jaylen probably thinks he don’t need to show up every game as well. He got outplayed by a role player the entire series, and he thinks he’s worth 60M? He should be ashamed and at least give the team a little discount.

[ryan in Maine]

I'm late to this conversation. Where are the goalposts supposed to be? I'm not sure where they moved from, but to me is he worth a max? Is this the best way to maximize the roster? That to me is the questions.

There's an example just a few posts back re JB's overall league ranking.

These league rankings?

BPM: 66th in the league
EPM: 46th
RAPTOR: 76th
PIE: 66th
TS%: 106th

I mean yeah that's basically the anti-JB gameplan.

Anti-JB poster: JB isn't a top 20 player.
Another poster: Sure he is.
Anti-JB poster: No he's not prove it.
Other poster: Ok here's some links there's more where this came from.
Anti-JB poster: That doesn't count.

Or the JB/OG comparison.

Anti-JB poster: OG is a way better shooter than JB.
Other poster: Not really.
Anti-JB poster: Look at their stats!
Other poster: Those numbers look pretty close actually.
Anti-JB poster: That doesn't count!

Or like whenever an anti-JB poster criticizes JB and I point out that said criticism also applies to JT they immediately move on to a different stat (usually ts%). That's moving the goalposts.

Or since you brought it up
Anti-JB poster: Look how bad these very specific advanced stats are.
Other poster: But JB carries this team for large chunks of the regular and postseason.
Anti-JB: Yeah but these specific advanced stats!
Other poster: Ok here's some context like maybe compare him with other high load guards.
Anti-JB poster: Absolutely not! There's no such thing as context! I'm going to post the exact same stats again for the hundredth time!

Etc.

[Half-Full]

The question is whether or not Jaylen Brown is good enough at basketball so that you are willing to sacrifice your quality depth to fit him into your cap as a max player. In my view he is not.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Celtics haven't sacrificed quality depth. They traded Smart, Muscala and Gallo for Porzingis which is a talent upgrade. Grant Williams wasn't resigned and you can argue that point but this is the same Grant Williams who was in the doghouse and couldn't get off the bench last year. Celtics decided Grant Williams was worth $13-14 million per year.

Celtics currently have not sacrificed anything concerning depth but just keep on saying it.

Currently their hands are a bit tied on what they can offer a player in salary without incurring penalties. That decidedly does affect our ability to improve our depth. That problem will continue going forward if Jaylen is given a supermax contract.

[steefP2]

I'm late to this conversation. Where are the goalposts supposed to be? I'm not sure where they moved from, but to me is he worth a max? Is this the best way to maximize the roster? That to me is the questions.

There's an example just a few posts back re JB's overall league ranking.

These league rankings?

BPM: 66th in the league
EPM: 46th
RAPTOR: 76th
PIE: 66th
TS%: 106th

You're right, let's make him the highest paid player in NBA history.

Raptor is a garbage stat that’s discontinued anyway. Please don’t cite rankings in ts without adjusting for role or usage. It’s worse than meaningless without context.

You don’t even need to present it this disingenuously to make your point. Advanced stats and impact metrics are low on Jaylen for a host of reasons. I could expound but I doubt anyone really cares.

Sure Jaylen isn’t worth the supermax in a vacuum. But that’s mostly a consequence of the current max or nothing system. It’s unfortunate but we have to deal with said reality.

If no supermax; we trade him now. I’ve yet to see a realistic trade that would make us better in the immediate. Maybe you have one up your sleeve.


All that said; I think we trade Jaylen in 2 years if we don’t win the chip by then, right when tatum’s extension kicks in. Essentially what the supermax has done for Jaylen is made himself a 2 year window on this team to win a championship.

I have no allegiance to Jaylen. If trading him makes the team better then sure but imo the pearl clutching about his contract has gone quite a bit too far.

[Celts17Pride]

The question is whether or not Jaylen Brown is good enough at basketball so that you are willing to sacrifice your quality depth to fit him into your cap as a max player. In my view he is not.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Celtics haven't sacrificed quality depth. They traded Smart, Muscala and Gallo for Porzingis which is a talent upgrade. Grant Williams wasn't resigned and you can argue that point but this is the same Grant Williams who was in the doghouse and couldn't get off the bench last year. Celtics decided Grant Williams was worth $13-14 million per year.

Celtics currently have not sacrificed anything concerning depth but just keep on saying it.

Currently their hands are a bit tied on what they can offer a player in salary without incurring penalties. That decidedly does affect our ability to improve our depth. That problem will continue going forward if Jaylen is given a supermax contract.

Celtics are going to have that problem regardless if Jaylen Brown gets a super max or not. Celtics hand being tied this year have absolutely nothing to do with Jaylen Brown.

[ajones9219]

I'm late to this conversation. Where are the goalposts supposed to be? I'm not sure where they moved from, but to me is he worth a max? Is this the best way to maximize the roster? That to me is the questions.

There's an example just a few posts back re JB's overall league ranking.

These league rankings?

BPM: 66th in the league
EPM: 46th
RAPTOR: 76th
PIE: 66th
TS%: 106th

You're right, let's make him the highest paid player in NBA history.

Quoting models like Raptor are just intentionally disingenuous. That model has Derick white as a top 10 player in the NBA.

Brown is a top 20 player in the NBA, at absolute worst 25. You can disagree but it's basically a consensus in the national media

[Triple7]

The question is whether or not Jaylen Brown is good enough at basketball so that you are willing to sacrifice your quality depth to fit him into your cap as a max player. In my view he is not.

Exactly!

What depth are we talking about ? Not resigning grant ? Most likely getting off brogdon next year. Not sure the first is brown related but maybe. Idk I’m good with that “sacrifice”. But grant being gone is a result of going from smart to kp; there’s your 15 mil difference in salary

I don’t agree with the depth thing. Clearly its just replacing Grant with Porzingis. Trading Smart in itself, was addition by subtraction. But i agree with Jaylen not worth the smax. Not even close.

[steefP2]

The question is whether or not Jaylen Brown is good enough at basketball so that you are willing to sacrifice your quality depth to fit him into your cap as a max player. In my view he is not.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Celtics haven't sacrificed quality depth. They traded Smart, Muscala and Gallo for Porzingis which is a talent upgrade. Grant Williams wasn't resigned and you can argue that point but this is the same Grant Williams who was in the doghouse and couldn't get off the bench last year. Celtics decided Grant Williams was worth $13-14 million per year.

Celtics currently have not sacrificed anything concerning depth but just keep on saying it.

Currently their hands are a bit tied on what they can offer a player in salary without incurring penalties. That decidedly does affect our ability to improve our depth. That problem will continue going forward if Jaylen is given a supermax contract.

Yeah they’re currently an expensive team; because we brought in porzingis. I don’t see how our current tax and contract limitations are any way related to Jaylen. This might rear its head in a year or 2 but it’s the same situation any contender finds themselves in over the course of competing for a title. This is just facts of life

[chrisab123]

He won’t have a career year next year. Not with Tatum and Porzingis on board. I think he’s peaked already. He won’t get better stats next year if he stays a celtic. Nobody would want that 295M. We would end up getting half of his value, or end up getting an awful one as well. He’s not a number 1 player. He won’t suddenly learn how to dribble left, and learn to pass the ball.

So he won't be able to outplay Porzingis? The same guy that people on this board are saying can't outplay Marcus Smart? You're taking a lot in from one series and using it because you don't want to pay the player.

Realistically who replaces Brown if you don't want him? OG is not on his level, neither is Siakam, Hunter or any of the other guys being thrown around. Trae is offense only.

I honestly hope that Brown stays and balls out so the posters that treated this guy like a G League talent can look back at some pretty awful takes. You have posters on here that say anything from I'd trade him before Marcus to I'll trade him for anything.

Of course he might outplay Porzingis. He’s still clearly our number 2 guy, but his numbers will clearly be affected by the addition of porzingis. He won’t get the same touches. It won’t be a two man show, your turn my turn like last season. So no, he won’t have a better season stat wise. Plus it ain’t really about that one series, but that series clearly showed he can’t be relied on to step up when needed. So yeah, i don’t want him getting paid with that amount of money. He’s not even close to be deserving. Rather get two good players for him that would fit well with JT, because that contract would be the worse in the league.

The NBA is the only league where 4 quarters does not equal 1 dollar. Just because you get two solid players who aren't as good as JB doesn't mean the team will be better. In fact in the NBA often time it makes it worse. This is why the Smart for Porzingis trade was good. Yes it hurt depth a little bit but overall it helped the Celtics because they received the best player in the deal by far.

[Celts17Pride]

Sure Jaylen isn’t worth the supermax in a vacuum. But that’s mostly a consequence of the current max or nothing system. It’s unfortunate but we have to deal with said reality.

If no supermax; we trade him now. I’ve yet to see a realistic trade that would make us better in the immediate. Maybe you have one up your sleeve.

What more really needs to be said?

[Triple7]

There's an example just a few posts back re JB's overall league ranking.

These league rankings?

BPM: 66th in the league
EPM: 46th
RAPTOR: 76th
PIE: 66th
TS%: 106th

You're right, let's make him the highest paid player in NBA history.

Quoting models like Raptor are just intentionally disingenuous. That model has Derick white as a top 10 player in the NBA.

Brown is a top 20 player in the NBA, at absolute worst 25. You can disagree but it's basically a consensus in the national media

It doesn’t matter if he’s top 15 or 25. What matters is if he fits with your number 1, which he really doesn’t.

[djFan71]

In our position, we should be looking at contracts as percentages of the 2nd apron, not the cap. It’s improbably we’ll be a cap space team for a long, long while to where we need to worry about that. It’s all about building a contending team that’s either below or somewhat reasonably over the 2nd apron. And if we do go over then having certain years you can dip back under to save repeater penalties.

It should also be noted that Brown’s 8% raise is off his first year salary. So to use easy numbers, if he made $10M, he gets an $800K raise to $10.8M. Then the next year, the raise is still just $800K, so now $11.6M. It doesn’t compound.

The cap on the other hand, does compound. So if the cap is $100M, next year it’s $110M. And then the following year it’s $121M.

Huh, I never knew that part - I always assumed they compounded. Thanks!
I thought you were wrong and had to go check numbers on some existing contracts, lol, but that checks out. Trust but verify.

[ryan in Maine]

These league rankings?

BPM: 66th in the league
EPM: 46th
RAPTOR: 76th
PIE: 66th
TS%: 106th

You're right, let's make him the highest paid player in NBA history.

Quoting models like Raptor are just intentionally disingenuous. That model has Derick white as a top 10 player in the NBA.

Brown is a top 20 player in the NBA, at absolute worst 25. You can disagree but it's basically a consensus in the national media

It doesn’t matter if he’s top 15 or 25. What matters is if he fits with your number 1, which he really doesn’t.

So your take is actually that we've been a Finals contender in spite of JB holding us back and not bc he's been a warrior for us lol?

[pac213up]

It doesn’t matter if he’s top 15 or 25. What matters is if he fits with your number 1, which he really doesn’t.

They seem to have had an amazing amount of success together for 2 guys that do not fit?

[Hal14]

There's an example just a few posts back re JB's overall league ranking.

These league rankings?

BPM: 66th in the league
EPM: 46th
RAPTOR: 76th
PIE: 66th
TS%: 106th

You're right, let's make him the highest paid player in NBA history.

Quoting models like Raptor are just intentionally disingenuous. That model has Derick white as a top 10 player in the NBA.

Brown is a top 20 player in the NBA, at absolute worst 25. You can disagree but it's basically a consensus in the national media

Right, because the national media people like Skip Bayless and Kendrick Perkins know everything and we should base all decisions on what they say, rather than looking at the actual data.

[ajones9219]

These league rankings?

BPM: 66th in the league
EPM: 46th
RAPTOR: 76th
PIE: 66th
TS%: 106th

You're right, let's make him the highest paid player in NBA history.

Quoting models like Raptor are just intentionally disingenuous. That model has Derick white as a top 10 player in the NBA.

Brown is a top 20 player in the NBA, at absolute worst 25. You can disagree but it's basically a consensus in the national media

It doesn’t matter if he’s top 15 or 25. What matters is if he fits with your number 1, which he really doesn’t.

Based on what? Source: trust me bro?

[Bar Fight]