Why Marcus Smart should start at SG

[Slartibartfast]

He's playing like he's Derek Fisher - a defensive specialist who moves the ball and shoots 3's and only drives when the lane is wide open. Only he's not shooting anywhere near as well as Fish.

And you know, it's extremely disappointing that Marcus has not been shooting the trey well, because he has been in the league for many years now and is coming up on what 20 years old and you would think he would have become the next Ray Allen by now.

I always liked Derek Fisher's game and if Marcus were to develop into a rich man's Derek Fisher, it wouldn't bother me.

Fish was hitting at 42% from 3 by his second year in college. He also wasn't built to be a major slashing/foul-drawing guard - he was strong but small and not particularly creative as a slasher. It made sense for him to build his game around his perimeter shot.

Marcus has hit at sub 30% from downtown at every level of competition. He's built like a tank and owes most of his offensive success to his ability to get into the painted area and finish. It makes no sense for him to play like Fisher right now.

I'm okay with taking 3's to build the skill - I approve of the experiment with Rondo and Sully last year. But those guys didn't abandon their strengths either. Rondo still tried to get in the paint and Sully still crashed the boards and used his body to get of shots in close.

Smart can take 3's - it's his extreme reticence to do anything but shoot 3s to score the ball that has me scratching my head.

[Slartibartfast]

While BfB may ultimately be right on this one--that early season prerogatives and preestablished pecking order are coloring our perception of Marcus' game--all you guys are making super solid points. This isn't the guy we saw in college and it's troubling because that guy we saw in college is somebody we could use RIGHT NOW.

A couple points to add:
1. The Avery Bradley Corollary: when you're smart, humble, work hard, and have strong character traits--you tend to succeed, not only in basketball but in life. So while everything Sam, Slart, and Stoyko are saying rings true, I'm not worried--this kid will get it. He works too hard not to get it. He's too smart not to get it. His shot will improve and he'll start getting into the lane. Whether that's because the coaching staff starts to ask more of him or because a light eventually comes on for Marcus, that's debatable. We don't know his true position--he might not even have a position, who knows--but none of that matters, this kid will be fine.

2. I don't mind all the 3s. That's the way the game is now--3s and layups and abstinence education. I'd prefer he get into the lane more, not even as a scorer but as a prober of the defense, but I think that'll come. I see a lot of caution in his game now. A lot of trying to be a technical PG and not enough of letting his instincts dictate what he does.

3. He's still not a PG, though his ability to resemble one is a fine trick. But that trick is making some forget what this kid does well--SCORING. The neutered Marcus Smart who plays like Derrick Fisher and runs offense and shoots 3s has convinced people like Humble that he's got natural PG skills but all it's convinced me is that we're working with a highly intelligent and highly coachable young man. I had concern about his attitude and self-destructive anger issues last year this time and thru the first month those concerns have not once resurfaced. This kid gets it, and he'll do what you tell him. I also think--based on his college tape--that he's more than able to improvise and play free too. He's not one of these players who needs structure to thrive (like the protypical role player) or who needs chaos to blossom (like a Ricky Davis). He can do both; hell, he can do it all. His versatility is not only his greatest strength, it's what spawns 20 page threads about him and causes all kinds of confusion about who he is and what the Cs have in him as a player. Well, let me set the record straight--we're talking about a guy who can fit a lot of roles on a lot of teams. What he's doing as a 20 year old rookie on this team just doesn't begin to explain the kind of player he'll be in his prime.

4. What BfB is getting at shouldn't be ignored though: Brad seems to have created a preseason role with Marcus that does 2 things: gets him much needed work on the mundane PG things like pace setting, facilitation, initiated offense in a timely manner while also getting him lots of spot up looks from deep. What he's not getting is scoring plays run for him, either in the post or around screens. And also: no P&R reps. When you're busy being the PG on a team that's stressing ball movement, pace, and defense, and you're not getting P&R opportunities, well, it's going to be difficult to generate penetration...because penetration involves one of two things: either a pick or 5-10 seconds to dribble the ball. He's getting neither right now.

5. Why is his role so circumscribed? Because when Rondo gets back Marcus will be off the ball. There's no point prepping Smart as the isolation scoring PG everybody wants him to be when that role just isn't available. Not only is Rondo in his way, Evan Turner is a much better PG option as well. Whether Smart can EVENTUALLY be that guy is a debate for another day--he's not getting the opportunity right now. What he's being groomed as is a defensive game changer, a 3 point bomber, and EVENTUALLY a secondary P&R player who works from the wings. This classic PG training is invaluable right now because it lays the groundwork to get him thinking about better shot selection down the road--something he'll need to work on if he wants to become a scoring PG.

***

A coda:

I'll disagree with Bill on one point--Rondo and Turner won't be staggered in their substitutions. I think they'll play a lot together, and that Rondo/Smart/Turner will be one of our best offensive lineups. Before people saying SPACING let me add that if you play with pace and share the ball then space isn't a concern. Pace creates space, and having 3 P&R players playing at a high pace is very difficult to defend if you surround them with knockdown shooters like KO, Sully, Green, or rolling bigs like Zeller. Plus, I think Rondo/Turner/Smart will all hit enough open 3s to keep the defense honest.

I'm loving this team right now--loving their attention to detail, willingness to play with pace, and the cohesion and adherence to what Brad's laying down. Assuming good health, they will surprise people.

Do we really have that much to add given there been 0 regular season games?

My only thought, I very much agree with the question of "why run Smart as a iso, drive and kick, scoring PG if right now Rondo is on the team and Smart will overlap in playing time with him so he will be off the ball." It would be counter intuitive, if winning is the goal, to develop Smart in the limited preseason time in that role of the "scoring/attack PG". He is smart enough to adapt to the off guard position now and could change if the roster does as well in the future.

My original stance remains, the best version (or potential) of Smart's tangible skills is that "scoring PG". But, right now his role is primarily the off guard so that's what he should learn to do. Thankfully, I think his diverse set of skills will allow him to do that in a productive manner. He wants to win, which is probably his best asset. Ryaningf touches on that as well. His tireless work ethic which is based more on will to win versus personal accolades will push him to succeed in both areas.

He's got to be in scoring/attack mode regardless of what position he's playing - that's when he's best offensively.

And it looks like he's going to be seeing most of his time at least this year playing PG. AB and Thornton are much better shooter/scorers at the 2 guard and ET's going to eat the back-up 3 minutes.

He's looking at maybe 5 minutes with Rondo a game. The rest of his time will be as the lead guard.

[Powe-Fessional]

I don't know if it's been talked about yet, but putting Rondo on the floor with Smart at the same time could be very interesting. I know Rondo needs shooters around him to be effective, but I am warming up to the idea of that new "sexy" two PG look using these two to run the show.

AB is not the best passing guard and really isn't effective off the dribble. Insert Marcus who is worlds better than AB in both of those categories and you have a nice motion offense.....if Rondo buys in. Much like Bledsoe and Dragic you'd pair a finesse guard with a "bully" guard with both guys having the ability to get to the rack. Only problem is Dragic and Bledsoe are both miles ahead of Rondo and Smart shooting the basketball. Regardless, the way this team has been sharing the ball lately, you could put those two out there with any combination of Green/Sully/ET/KO and have a pretty fun motion offense.

[Slartibartfast]

I don't know if it's been talked about yet, but putting Rondo on the floor with Smart at the same time could be very interesting. I know Rondo needs shooters around him to be effective, but I am warming up to the idea of that new "sexy" two PG look using these two to run the show.

AB is not the best passing guard and really isn't effective off the dribble. Insert Marcus who is words better than AB in both of those categories and you have a nice motion offense.....if Rondo buys in. Much like Bledsoe and Dragic you'd pair a finesse guard with a "bully" guard with both guys having the ability to get to the rack. Only problem is Dragic and Bledsoe are both miles ahead of Rondo and Smart shooting the basketball. Regardless, the way this team has been sharing the ball lately, you could put those two out there with any combination of Green/Sully/ET/KO and have a pretty fun motion offense.

With KO and Sully on the wings and Green in the corner, it might be fun to run 1/2 pick and rolls with Rondo and Smart. Smart's a pretty fantastic roll man - he can set a solid screen and then he's got great down hill moves and he can kick to the perimeter if the defense collapses.

[bbd24]

I don't know if it's been talked about yet, but putting Rondo on the floor with Smart at the same time could be very interesting. I know Rondo needs shooters around him to be effective, but I am warming up to the idea of that new "sexy" two PG look using these two to run the show.

AB is not the best passing guard and really isn't effective off the dribble. Insert Marcus who is words better than AB in both of those categories and you have a nice motion offense.....if Rondo buys in. Much like Bledsoe and Dragic you'd pair a finesse guard with a "bully" guard with both guys having the ability to get to the rack. Only problem is Dragic and Bledsoe are both miles ahead of Rondo and Smart shooting the basketball. Regardless, the way this team has been sharing the ball lately, you could put those two out there with any combination of Green/Sully/ET/KO and have a pretty fun motion offense.

I agree. Everyone is so quick to talk about offense, but it's Smarts defense that allows you to play him at either spot. Add in his passing ability, and you'll have ball movement out there on the offensive end. That's more important than talking about his shot. Instead, I'd have him keep up the ball movement & work on shot selection. That's most important for this team.

[bucknersrevenge]

I hate to break it to you, but Marcus is never going to be a great shooter - just like vastly more talented players like Westbrook and Derek Rose will never be either. Ray Allen was an awesome shooter at age 16. Marcus could be adequate in 5 years - but he'll never be a guy that a defender sticks to like glue running over picks out of fear he gets 1 extra inch to get a shot off like 2008 Ray. And that is why it is so depressing that he has none of the elite basket making ability of other non-shooting PGs like Westbrook and Rose or Rondo.

I get the concern that he won't be Westbrook or Rose but he will score twice as many points as Rondo did his rookie year. He is so much more talented than you seem to want to admit that your going to be like a kid on Xmass when it happens.

I think sam is too bearish on Smart, but you really think Smart's going to put up 12ppg this season? He didn't even get there on a per 36 basis in preseason against some of the weakest defenses in the league.

Thing is, I'm starting to detect a shell game forming. At first, the argument was that Smart cannot drive thelane. That was the original debate. Because Smart was choosing to hoist everytime his defender went under the pick. So now the argument has changed to "Smart will never be a good shooter as evidenced by his 19% through 5 preseason games". The goalposts are just gonna keep getting pushed back because Smart is not the same player as Russell Westbrook. It's a silly argument. I don't know that Smart will ever be a great perimeter shooter. Do I think he can be average? Sure. And I know he can drive and get to the rim and score in the paint and get to the line. So add all that up and you have a very good player. Maybe he doesn't hit all those numbers his first year. Or even the second. But I have enough faith in what I have seen of him so fair and of his work ethic that in 3 years we are going to have a helluva player.

[Slartibartfast]

I get the concern that he won't be Westbrook or Rose but he will score twice as many points as Rondo did his rookie year. He is so much more talented than you seem to want to admit that your going to be like a kid on Xmass when it happens.

I think sam is too bearish on Smart, but you really think Smart's going to put up 12ppg this season? He didn't even get there on a per 36 basis in preseason against some of the weakest defenses in the league.

Thing is, I'm starting to detect a shell game forming. At first, the argument was that Smart cannot drive thelane. That was the original debate. Because Smart was choosing to hoist everytime his defender went under the pick. So now the argument has changed to "Smart will never be a good shooter as evidenced by his 19% through 5 preseason games". The goalposts are just gonna keep getting pushed back because Smart is not the same player as Russell Westbrook. It's a silly argument. I don't know that Smart will ever be a great perimeter shooter. Do I think he can be average? Sure. And I know he can drive and get to the rim and score in the paint and get to the line. So add all that up and you have a very good player. Maybe he doesn't hit all those numbers his first year. Or even the second. But I have enough faith in what I have seen of him so fair and of his work ethic that in 3 years we are going to have a helluva player.

What are you talking about? Which of those arguments am I making?

[sam_I_am]

I get the concern that he won't be Westbrook or Rose but he will score twice as many points as Rondo did his rookie year. He is so much more talented than you seem to want to admit that your going to be like a kid on Xmass when it happens.

I think sam is too bearish on Smart, but you really think Smart's going to put up 12ppg this season? He didn't even get there on a per 36 basis in preseason against some of the weakest defenses in the league.

Thing is, I'm starting to detect a shell game forming. At first, the argument was that Smart cannot drive thelane. That was the original debate. Because Smart was choosing to hoist everytime his defender went under the pick. So now the argument has changed to "Smart will never be a good shooter as evidenced by his 19% through 5 preseason games". The goalposts are just gonna keep getting pushed back because Smart is not the same player as Russell Westbrook. It's a silly argument. I don't know that Smart will ever be a great perimeter shooter. Do I think he can be average? Sure. And I know he can drive and get to the rim and score in the paint and get to the line. So add all that up and you have a very good player. Maybe he doesn't hit all those numbers his first year. Or even the second. But I have enough faith in what I have seen of him so fair and of his work ethic that in 3 years we are going to have a helluva player.

Actually it is simple math. Rondo, Westbrook and Rose suck as outside shooters and yet despite that end up shooting 50% from the field. Smart is shooting 36% from the field ( actually worse because ESPN only calculates last 5 games). The way he improves that number to join company of the elite PGs who can't shoot is to morph into a Steph Curry type 50% outside shooter ( something that I've never seen a player do in my 30 years as a fan ) OR to do something he hasn't done in preseason or in summer league: get to the rim regularly and score at a high percentage.

Now many here are making the excuse that it is coaching to blame. That seems so unlikely - but I have never chatted with a Celtic coach and maybe some of you have and have that inside scoop. I'll remain skeptical. If he can do it - he needs to prove it. Maybe he will, and when that happens I'll believe it. But I have my doubts because the speed and explosiveness required don't seem to be there.

[bucknersrevenge]

I think sam is too bearish on Smart, but you really think Smart's going to put up 12ppg this season? He didn't even get there on a per 36 basis in preseason against some of the weakest defenses in the league.

Thing is, I'm starting to detect a shell game forming. At first, the argument was that Smart cannot drive thelane. That was the original debate. Because Smart was choosing to hoist everytime his defender went under the pick. So now the argument has changed to "Smart will never be a good shooter as evidenced by his 19% through 5 preseason games". The goalposts are just gonna keep getting pushed back because Smart is not the same player as Russell Westbrook. It's a silly argument. I don't know that Smart will ever be a great perimeter shooter. Do I think he can be average? Sure. And I know he can drive and get to the rim and score in the paint and get to the line. So add all that up and you have a very good player. Maybe he doesn't hit all those numbers his first year. Or even the second. But I have enough faith in what I have seen of him so fair and of his work ethic that in 3 years we are going to have a helluva player.

What are you talking about? Which of those arguments am I making?

Not you Slart. That's my bad for quoting your post.

[shawn unkempt]

He's driven to the basket off the dribble a grand total of 1 time all preseason and it was against Brooklyn's C squad. Saying he's elite at penetrating and finishing is just as premature as saying he'll never develop an outside shot.

[Powe-Fessional]

I think sam is too bearish on Smart, but you really think Smart's going to put up 12ppg this season? He didn't even get there on a per 36 basis in preseason against some of the weakest defenses in the league.

Thing is, I'm starting to detect a shell game forming. At first, the argument was that Smart cannot drive thelane. That was the original debate. Because Smart was choosing to hoist everytime his defender went under the pick. So now the argument has changed to "Smart will never be a good shooter as evidenced by his 19% through 5 preseason games". The goalposts are just gonna keep getting pushed back because Smart is not the same player as Russell Westbrook. It's a silly argument. I don't know that Smart will ever be a great perimeter shooter. Do I think he can be average? Sure. And I know he can drive and get to the rim and score in the paint and get to the line. So add all that up and you have a very good player. Maybe he doesn't hit all those numbers his first year. Or even the second. But I have enough faith in what I have seen of him so fair and of his work ethic that in 3 years we are going to have a helluva player.

Actually it is simple math. Rondo, Westbrook and Rose suck as outside shooters and yet despite that end up shooting 50% from the field. Smart is shooting 36% from the field ( actually worse because ESPN only calculates last 5 games). The way he improves that number to join company of the elite PGs who can't shoot is to morph into a Steph Curry type 50% outside shooter ( something that I've never seen a player do in my 30 years as a fan ) OR to do something he hasn't done in preseason or in summer league: get to the rim regularly and score at a high percentage.

Now many here are making the excuse that it is coaching to blame. That seems so unlikely - but I have never chatted with a Celtic coach and maybe some of you have and have that inside scoop. I'll remain skeptical. If he can do it - he needs to prove it. Maybe he will, and when that happens I'll believe it. But I have my doubts because the speed and explosiveness required don't seem to be there.

I just have a hard time believing that Smart would abandon the strong part of his offensive game all together his first pre-season in the NBA. He had the highest FG% at the rim of all the guards in the draft this year. And he's not doing it because why? Is he scared? I don't think so. This is a guy in high school that guarded 6-11 Perry Jones and held him to 12 points and 6 rebounds. I don't think Smart is afraid of much, and I don't think failure is on the list. We're all speculating as to why he isn't doing this.

[bucknersrevenge]

He's driven to the basket off the dribble a grand total of 1 time all preseason and it was against Brooklyn's C squad. Saying he's elite at penetrating and finishing is just as premature as saying he'll never develop an outside shot.

On that Shawn, I think we agree. Because to call Smart an elite penetrator would encourage yet another debate on what it means to be elite at that task which I am certainly not ready to do.

[shawn unkempt]

He's driven to the basket off the dribble a grand total of 1 time all preseason and it was against Brooklyn's C squad. Saying he's elite at penetrating and finishing is just as premature as saying he'll never develop an outside shot.

On that Shawn, I think we agree. Because to call Smart an elite penetrator would encourage yet another debate on what it means to be elite at that task which I am certainly not ready to do.

Yeah, elite may have been too strong a word. I just mean that I'm not yet convinced that he's all that good at it at the NBA level yet and I don't expect him to drive the lane much when the season starts. I think we all just have to accept that he's still super raw on the offensive end and he's a work in progress.

[Slartibartfast]

But I have my doubts because the speed and explosiveness required don't seem to be there.

You don't need elite speed and explosiveness to slash - Tyreke Evans gets there with long-strides, shiftiness and his size and length advantages in close. Andre Miller could edge guys off with his caboose and lean into all kinds of shots in the paint. Ron Artest has always been pretty slow with the ball, but he had away of getting his shoulder past a guy and then keeping a driving angle with his strength. And all these guys had significant issues with their jumpers.
These aren’t #1 scorer types, but they still managed to get into the 15-20 range. I’m a believer in Smart’s ability to match a guy like Miller as a scorer. I just want to see his style adjust to fit his strengths.

[threrf23]

Fish was hitting at 42% from 3 by his second year in college. He also wasn't built to be a major slashing/foul-drawing guard - he was strong but small and not particularly creative as a slasher. It made sense for him to build his game around his perimeter shot.

As a 19 y/o college player, Fish was 23-55 from 3 at Arkansas. He didn't take many threes. Smart shot 49 of 164 while likely facing a lot more defensive attention (and having worse shot selection perhaps). Not a big difference IMO in terms of displayed ability. As a 22 y/o NBA rookie, Fish shot 30% from 3 on about three attempts per 36. Again, nothing special.

I mean, I get your point and all, and since Smart already has an NBA body I wonder if his shot will improve like James Young's shot should improve after he matures physically. But I think it is ridiculous to care about whether Smart's 3 is or isn't falling right now. That will come in time. Or it won't. But right now it is besides the point. IMO

[humblebum]

Anyone who's played ball knows it doesn't take great explosiveness or quickness to get in the lane. It's the ability to change speeds and directions which matters. Strength will help you keep the step or half step you gain and strength plus technique/touch will make you a great finisher.

Smart has good speed (as evidenced by his ability to push the tempo but he doesn't have a great first step. So it's going to take some savvy and understanding for him to consistently get in the lane off the bounce or in PnR situations. If he wasn't already such a savvy team defender I'd be more hesitant in proclaiming that he'll learn the things that made and guys like Chauncey and Andre successful in that regard, but such as it is I'm very confident we are looking at a player who'll soon be doing great things inside and outside.

He'll never be Steph Curry but I think he can be a Mr. Big Shot type of shooter.

[Slartibartfast]

Fish was hitting at 42% from 3 by his second year in college. He also wasn't built to be a major slashing/foul-drawing guard - he was strong but small and not particularly creative as a slasher. It made sense for him to build his game around his perimeter shot.

As a 19 y/o college player, Fish was 23-55 from 3 at Arkansas. He didn't take many threes. Smart shot 49 of 164 while likely facing a lot more defensive attention (and having worse shot selection perhaps). Not a big difference IMO in terms of displayed ability. As a 22 y/o NBA rookie, Fish shot 30% from 3 on about three attempts per 36. Again, nothing special.

I mean, I get your point and all, and since Smart already has an NBA body I wonder if his shot will improve like James Young's shot should improve after he matures physically. But I think it is ridiculous to care about whether Smart's 3 is or isn't falling right now. That will come in time. Or it won't. But right now it is besides the point. IMO

How is it besides the point? If you are a sub 30% deep shooter, you shouldn't be playing like a 3-point shooting specialist - as you pointed out, Fisher didn't fire up the artillery until he had proven he could aim. Further, if you are a sub 30% shooter with the kind of sample size that Smart's consistent bombing has produced and a ridiculous airball count, then it's not unreasonable to question his potential as a shooter in a way that you wouldn't with a low-volume, high accuracy guy like Fisher

Would any of us have been happy if a rookie TA came in and started launching like he was prime Michael Redd on the justification that Redd didn't have much of deep ball in college either? How about if Rondo came in playing like Eddie House?

I fully understand the long-term optimism for Smart as a prospect, but people are dismissing a very poor offensive summer league & preseason in a way that I don't think they would for a less touted, lower draft pick like TA or Rondo.

[threrf23]

How is it besides the point? If you are a sub 30% deep shooter, you shouldn't be playing like a 3-point shooting specialist - as you pointed out, Fisher didn't fire up the artillery until he had proven he could aim. Further, if you are a sub 30% shooter with the kind of sample size that Smart's consistent bombing has produced and a ridiculous airball count, then it's not unreasonable to question his potential as a shooter in a way that you wouldn't with a low-volume, high accuracy guy like Fisher

This is the preseason, man. And the team is in semi-rebuild mode to begin with. The goal is to develop, not so much to win. Just because he is a <30% shooter now does not mean he always will be. What he will be is relevant to how you want him to develop, and there is probably more to say to that effect but I can't find the right words.

[Slartibartfast]

How is it besides the point? If you are a sub 30% deep shooter, you shouldn't be playing like a 3-point shooting specialist - as you pointed out, Fisher didn't fire up the artillery until he had proven he could aim. Further, if you are a sub 30% shooter with the kind of sample size that Smart's consistent bombing has produced and a ridiculous airball count, then it's not unreasonable to question his potential as a shooter in a way that you wouldn't with a low-volume, high accuracy guy like Fisher

This is the preseason, man. And the team is in semi-rebuild mode to begin with. The goal is to develop, not so much to win. Just because he is a <30% shooter now does not mean he always will be. What he will be is relevant to how you want him to develop, and there is probably more to say to that effect but I can't find the right words.

I'm a believer in getting guys to establish their strengths and build from there. It builds confidence, trade value and winning habits.

Having a guy who's never been even an average shooter take 75% of his shots from downtown, and the most 3 pointers total on the team strikes me as bizarre.

I know it's preseason, but rookies tend to play preseason straight. Guys might play a little looser, but usually they do the same kinds of things in the regular season. And it wasn't like it was 1 game. He did it every single game. Even in his aggressive final game, he had more 3's than aggressive drives.

[sully00]

I hate to break it to you, but Marcus is never going to be a great shooter - just like vastly more talented players like Westbrook and Derek Rose will never be either. Ray Allen was an awesome shooter at age 16. Marcus could be adequate in 5 years - but he'll never be a guy that a defender sticks to like glue running over picks out of fear he gets 1 extra inch to get a shot off like 2008 Ray. And that is why it is so depressing that he has none of the elite basket making ability of other non-shooting PGs like Westbrook and Rose or Rondo.

I get the concern that he won't be Westbrook or Rose but he will score twice as many points as Rondo did his rookie year. He is so much more talented than you seem to want to admit that your going to be like a kid on Xmass when it happens.

I think sam is too bearish on Smart, but you really think Smart's going to put up 12ppg this season? He didn't even get there on a per 36 basis in preseason against some of the weakest defenses in the league.

Maybe it is 10 and not 12 but yes I think he is going to score. It is really not that impressive an accomplishment if your a primary ball handler who makes his fts.