"WCIHAoTDP?" - 2016 Draft Thread P.2

[cellar-door]

Sabonis or Valentine (or Luwawu) are the only guys I want with that Dallas pick. Frustrating God Barea will carry them to the post season.

Yeah those guys are the appealing ones to me as well. I could be talked into Rabb, and then there is my totally unfounded interest in OG Anunoby.

Not draft time if I haven't picked a guy I barely know anything about to be the next great surprise lol.

Sabonis is going to be the steal of the draft. During workouts I'd be surprised if he isn't in the top ten discussion. Dude's counter moves are impressive, has a nice and improving stroke, is mobile and plays with fire. Anti-Olynyk. Maybe a little thin at this point, but I think Aryvdas was as well when he was 20. That will improve. Domantas is that guy.

hopefully he declares and is available.

Sabonis's wingspan at Nike last year was under 6'11", those are some tiny arms so he's not going to be a rim protector or get in the passing lanes much. We'll see come combine and workouts how his athleticism grades out, but to me he looks less laterally quick than he's need to be to be a good defender at the NBA level, overall he seems to me like a high floor offensive skill player who can be in your rotation if he starts developing a 3 but who'll never defend much. I'd honestly be surprised if he is ever any better than Olynyk, who is a role player who can really shoot the 3 and is a very solid positional defender who can switch the PnR.

[TMU]

I'm very curious to see (if we end up with the 3rd pick and don't trade out) who Ainge picks at 3. This draft feels so up in the air.

Strongly feel it'd be moved or gotta go with Bender or Dunn as they have the highest ceilings.

I agree. Dunn has the highest upside out of the guys not named Simmons or Ingram. Hield is probably most NBA ready and while I think he's a top pick, it's hard to gauge his ceiling. I think the 4 impact players in this draft will be Simmons, Ingram, Dunn and Hield, and I think the Celtics just might be better off trading the pick if they don't have one of the Top 2 picks and package for a star player.. It's going to be a tough call, but overall, outside the high upper tier, this is a weak class.

Speaking of Sabas, I love his offense and his game in college, but I think he really needs to bulk up a little bit to be a true PF in the league.

[BfB]

Yeah those guys are the appealing ones to me as well. I could be talked into Rabb, and then there is my totally unfounded interest in OG Anunoby.

Not draft time if I haven't picked a guy I barely know anything about to be the next great surprise lol.

Sabonis is going to be the steal of the draft. During workouts I'd be surprised if he isn't in the top ten discussion. Dude's counter moves are impressive, has a nice and improving stroke, is mobile and plays with fire. Anti-Olynyk. Maybe a little thin at this point, but I think Aryvdas was as well when he was 20. That will improve. Domantas is that guy.

hopefully he declares and is available.

Sabonis's wingspan at Nike last year was under 6'11", those are some tiny arms so he's not going to be a rim protector or get in the passing lanes much. We'll see come combine and workouts how his athleticism grades out, but to me he looks less laterally quick than he's need to be to be a good defender at the NBA level, overall he seems to me like a high floor offensive skill player who can be in your rotation if he starts developing a 3 but who'll never defend much. I'd honestly be surprised if he is ever any better than Olynyk, who is a role player who can really shoot the 3 and is a very solid positional defender who can switch the PnR.

People questioned Draymond Green's perimeter shot offensively and latteral quicks defensively too - Sabonis has the ingrediants that translate best - he's an impact olayer on both ends of the court who outworks everyone.

Whatever his limitations, he'll be fine if given the opportunity to improve - DAL pick written all over him - great rebounder can replace Sully if the team wants to save its cash.

[return2glory]

Sabonis is going to be the steal of the draft. During workouts I'd be surprised if he isn't in the top ten discussion. Dude's counter moves are impressive, has a nice and improving stroke, is mobile and plays with fire. Anti-Olynyk. Maybe a little thin at this point, but I think Aryvdas was as well when he was 20. That will improve. Domantas is that guy.

hopefully he declares and is available.

Sabonis's wingspan at Nike last year was under 6'11", those are some tiny arms so he's not going to be a rim protector or get in the passing lanes much. We'll see come combine and workouts how his athleticism grades out, but to me he looks less laterally quick than he's need to be to be a good defender at the NBA level, overall he seems to me like a high floor offensive skill player who can be in your rotation if he starts developing a 3 but who'll never defend much. I'd honestly be surprised if he is ever any better than Olynyk, who is a role player who can really shoot the 3 and is a very solid positional defender who can switch the PnR.

People questioned Draymond Green's perimeter shot offensively and latteral quicks defensively too - Sabonis has the ingrediants that translate best - he's an impact olayer on both ends of the court who outworks everyone.

Whatever his limitations, he'll be fine if given the opportunity to improve - DAL pick written all over him - great rebounder can replace Sully if the team wants to save its cash.

It would be great to get Sabonis with the Dallas pick, but I feel he will be gone by then. Maybe teams forget about how well he played in the tourny and focus on the all important "wing span" and he drops to us with the Dallas pick.

[Leprechaun18]

I would hold off making picks atm. I would wait to see how the bigs measure. If Sabonis's SR is 9' or more then his stock will sky rocket. If Poeltl's SR is 9'2" or better then his stock will go up. IMO Poeltl has the higher ceiling. Poeltl was the better scorer in college, and also had more blocks. Poeltl needs to add leg strength, but if does he will become much more dominant. IMO I think both bigs will have good NBA careers.

[Envelope]

I would hold off making picks atm. I would wait to see how the bigs measure. If Sabonis's SR is 9' or more then his stock will sky rocket. If Poeltl's SR is 9'2" or better then his stock will go up. IMO Poeltl has the higher ceiling. Poeltl was the better scorer in college, and also had more blocks. Poeltl needs to add leg strength, but if does he will become much more dominant. IMO I think both bigs will have good NBA careers.

Poeltl is a viable pick in the 3-6 range, and he'll move up in the mock drafts closer to draft day.

[Leprechaun18]

People shouldnt judge Poeltl by one game against Gonzaga. Where a he played with a hurt ankle. Take a look at him against Duke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqhAnaP-hCw&nohtml5=False. Consider last year when he held Okafor to just 6 pts/

[cellar-door]

Sabonis is going to be the steal of the draft. During workouts I'd be surprised if he isn't in the top ten discussion. Dude's counter moves are impressive, has a nice and improving stroke, is mobile and plays with fire. Anti-Olynyk. Maybe a little thin at this point, but I think Aryvdas was as well when he was 20. That will improve. Domantas is that guy.

hopefully he declares and is available.

Sabonis's wingspan at Nike last year was under 6'11", those are some tiny arms so he's not going to be a rim protector or get in the passing lanes much. We'll see come combine and workouts how his athleticism grades out, but to me he looks less laterally quick than he's need to be to be a good defender at the NBA level, overall he seems to me like a high floor offensive skill player who can be in your rotation if he starts developing a 3 but who'll never defend much. I'd honestly be surprised if he is ever any better than Olynyk, who is a role player who can really shoot the 3 and is a very solid positional defender who can switch the PnR.

People questioned Draymond Green's perimeter shot offensively and latteral quicks defensively too - Sabonis has the ingrediants that translate best - he's an impact olayer on both ends of the court who outworks everyone.

Whatever his limitations, he'll be fine if given the opportunity to improve - DAL pick written all over him - great rebounder can replace Sully if the team wants to save its cash.

People questioned Draymond's size more than anything. He's 6'7" and a PF/C, he proved them wrong, (Amusingly despite being 3 inches shorter Draymond's wingspan is 3 inches wider than Donatas and about the same as Joakim Noah).

I think Donatas will be a decent NBA role player, but people are getting too sold on a few good performances in the tourney. His physical limitations are there (maybe I'm wrong and he shows great agility at the combine/workouts but I doubt it). I'd like him at 16-18 (though honestly given roster crunch I hope that pick is traded or a draft and stash), I just don't see how a team justifies a top 10 pick which was the context. He's got a decent floor, but his ceiling is low because he's not much of an athlete.

Wingspan I know is a buzzword, but it actually translates as an important indicator, especially on defense, it's more important than height in a lot of ways. Bradley, Leonard, Green, Smart, George, all guys with really impressive wingspans that help them defend. A few articles have been written about it. Donatas would have one of (maybe the) smallest wingspans of any NBA PF, that's definitely a concern. I think his skills are good enough that he can find a role, but a top 10 pick for a guy with his limitations is a tough sell.

[Leprechaun18]

Well K.O.s wingspan was only 6'9.5" at the combine, so Sabonis's wingspan is greater than KOs. I think standing reach is more inportant than wingspan for bigs. Also wingspan and standing reach with slow hands is not that effective. Good hand speed and agility really completement good wingspan and standing reach. Its all in the total package. If one number determined how good a player would be then drafting would be easy.

[FlatearthZorro]

With Dallas' pick, I also want Sabonis, what is his standing reach??? Wingspan is 6'11"(he's 6'10"), better than KO who has them Raptor hands and is 6'11" with 6'9,5".

We need players and bigs, who play hard and with heart! Sabonis is that guy, I just have no idea, whether he'll be there, when we pick(16-17 range)

Btw, lots of interesting prospect bigs in the 2nd round like Petr Cornelie, Chinanu Onuaku. I hope Danny makes room for bigs we draft, kinda getting tired of our current big man crops.

[Murta]

I'm down with taking Sabonis with DAL pick. We need the replacement guy for Sullinger, if nothing for easier contract negotiations.

If Sully stays, I don't think he is going to play for Cs in 2018-19, which means taking Sabonis would give us a chance to develop him and take over big minutes with two years remaining on rookie contract.

[Envelope]

Thon Maker has a 9'5" standing reach, is 7'1, and has a 7'3 wingspan, is much more athletic than Sabonis, and plays with just as much heart. Let's hope he qualifies for the draft, as he should. He's super smart and well spoken too, like Porzingis and Myles Turner.

And he's another guy who might end up being considered 3-6 at the end of the day.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Thon Maker has a 9'5" standing reach, is 7'1, and has a 7'3 wingspan, is much more athletic than Sabonis, and plays with just as much heart. Let's hope he qualifies for the draft, as he should. He's super smart and well spoken too, like Porzingis and Myles Turner.

And he's another guy who might end up being considered 3-6 at the end of the day.

You forgot perhaps the most important factor of all: he is just not a very good basketball player. He absolutely will not be a top 3-6 pick, and will be lucky to go late lottery. He is like Bruno Cabolco-- two years from being two years away.

[Envelope]

Thon Maker has a 9'5" standing reach, is 7'1, and has a 7'3 wingspan, is much more athletic than Sabonis, and plays with just as much heart. Let's hope he qualifies for the draft, as he should. He's super smart and well spoken too, like Porzingis and Myles Turner.

And he's another guy who might end up being considered 3-6 at the end of the day.

You forgot perhaps the most important factor of all: he is just not a very good basketball player. He absolutely will not be a top 3-6 pick, and will be lucky to go late lottery. He is like Bruno Cabolco-- two years from being two years away.

He's a super-talented defender with lots of offensive upside, good ball handling for a 7'1 guy, and a promising jump shot.
Like Myles Turner, Porzingis, and KATowns, he'll probably play PF his first year or two, and perhaps long term, but he's a great defensive PF/C, even if he can't man up guys like the Lopez brothers.

[Gant]

Dallas did surprisingly well. It's a good organization.

Fortunately, the draft is much flatter from the late lottery to the early playoff teams this year as compared to last.

After the second tier most players have an extremely wide range, and Ainge is known for ranking guys his own way, meaning his 17ish pick could get him who he wants anyway.

[ryaningf]

Putting a guy who struggles with defensive intensity and awareness, a guy who goes through long stretches of passiveness, at a position that--due to his current body type--would require intense focus, intensity, and physicality to even break even seems like a huge project initially. Draymond would EAT HIM ALIVE and probably STEAL HIS SOUL. Think the time KG made Big Baby cry, only worse.

How would Draymond eat him alive at center? His advantage at the 5 is due to his unique combination of length/strength/quickness, and, Ben Simmons is a bad matchup for him in all three elements.

Draymond is not a world beater offensively, and is not going to beat Simmons off the dribble. If he wants to try to back him down, that's fine by me-- it's like when the Patriots run, anytime you take the ball out of your best players hands, it's a win for the opponent.

On the other end of the court, Simmons is quicker, taller and has a better handle. He's relentless is attacking the hoop, and I'd take him, 6'10 with supperior quickness, 1 on 1 vs the slower 6'6 center every time. He may not win the majority of the battles, but Draymond will end up in foul trouble.

You're acting like imparting toughness, tenacity, and physicality in a guy is a simple as whispering some inspiring words in his ear before he takes the court. While I agree with you on Simmons' physical skills, I don't think he has the mentality to do the things you think he can do with them. I'd rather play Marcus Smart at center than Simmons, because I know Marcus will put his entire body and soul into defending his position and even though he's giving up 8 inches and 50 lbs probably do a damn fine job. Not so incidentally, these same mental traits are what make Draymond Green so good at center.

(Also SMH at some skinny passive kid who couldn't even win a thing in college coming into the league and being a bad matchup for one of the 10 best players in the entire league on day 1).

I'm all for putting smaller guys at center and spreading the court, but with Simmons I'd rather play him at PG than watch him be destroyed at center. Given the long strides he need to make on defense, developing him as a perimeter defender first seems like the best path forward. Centers and PFs need to direct the defense, talk constantly, and be adept help defenders and I really don't see Simmons doing any of that for a long time (if ever).

You're arguing his offensive position vs his defensive position. You stick him at the 5 to counter the look from a team like GS, otherwise you leave him as a face-up 4, much like Giannis or LeBron.

I'm arguing that he needs the ball in his hands on offense to be effective and he needs to hidden on the worst perimeter player on defense. In other words, I'm arguing that playing him at center is MADNESS JERRY.

The guys who match up well with Draymond would be Millsap/Diaw right now and Aaron Gordon within 1-2 years. Simmons needs to play PG (on offense) a la Giannis to get his immense talent to flower IMO. Then hide him on the weakest perimeter threat on defense.

Given that Simmons is taller, stronger and more athletic than Gordon, I don't find it a stretch to say he could be an effective counter as a small ball center. He has the tools, he just needs focus. With a good coach and a defined role, he will definitely be serviceable on that end from the get go.

See above. Thinking coaches and the right role will change Simmons' mentality is foolish.

This next part isn't directed at you, but more in general, so my apology if I appear to be directing it at you:

I have no idea when it happened, but Simmons went from being criminally overrated (he's not LeBron) to being criminally underrated. The guy will be 1 of the three most athletic PF's in the league from day 1, with an elite first step and awesome second leap. He's a Russell Westbrook caliber athlete, where he just wont compare to the majority of his peers at the NBA level.

And for all the crap about him not being able to shoot, the guy scored 19 a game in conference due to his handle/first step combination. I mean, defenses absolutely camped out in the paint (which can't happen in the NBA) and he still found creases and went to the line 11 times a game in conference.

He's a relentless rebounder, which, in combination with his FTA's, show me that he's not afraid to get physical at the next level. His vision is elite, and he will average more than 5 a game from his rookie year on.

He's not the best prospect since LeBron (Oden). He's not the best prospect since Oden (Davis). But he's a tantalizing talent that I guarantee you Stevens is salivating to coach. He's an elite athlete with the ability to play multiple positions, and really everything you could ask for from a top draft pick. Good coaching will absolutely turn him into a superstar in this league-- he's built to dominate the modern pace and space game. He will be a nightmare in transition.

I agree with much of this. I think the right coach is hugely important for Simmons (someone who's shown an aversion to coaching or challenging himself so far in his short life). But the right coach will challenge him mentally on the one hand (asking him to show up mentally 100% of the time no matter how the game is going) while also putting him in the best position to accentuate his strengths on the court (facilitating, rebounding, transition opportunities). I don't think "Center" has a part to play in any of this, not for a guy who plays shorter than his listed height. In maybe 5-7 years, once he physically matures, I could see Simmons being the tallest guy in some 5 man unit with great shooting around him, but even in that scenario I don't want him banging with centers I want him cracking back from the perimeter for defensive rebound opportunities so he can start the break. Let some 6'6" Draymond Green-lite guy do that kind of dirty work (and it is dirty work and if you don't get the necessity of putting guys who like wearing their hard hat to work and mixing it up down low then you don't get the center position).

[SmartWentCrazy]

Just to clarify- in no way should Simmons spend the majority of his time banging in the post. His first step/handle combination is lethal and he needs the ball in his hand from the wing on offense when he's on the court. On defense, I feel he can be a small ball 5 as a counter to teams running the same, but this shouldn't be near his primary position. He should be hid with Crowder covering the more dangerous of the opponents 3/4.

[Gant]

You know a player is unusual when people are debating both whether he can be a center and whether he can be a point guard.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Putting a guy who struggles with defensive intensity and awareness, a guy who goes through long stretches of passiveness, at a position that--due to his current body type--would require intense focus, intensity, and physicality to even break even seems like a huge project initially. Draymond would EAT HIM ALIVE and probably STEAL HIS SOUL. Think the time KG made Big Baby cry, only worse.

How would Draymond eat him alive at center? His advantage at the 5 is due to his unique combination of length/strength/quickness, and, Ben Simmons is a bad matchup for him in all three elements.

Draymond is not a world beater offensively, and is not going to beat Simmons off the dribble. If he wants to try to back him down, that's fine by me-- it's like when the Patriots run, anytime you take the ball out of your best players hands, it's a win for the opponent.

On the other end of the court, Simmons is quicker, taller and has a better handle. He's relentless is attacking the hoop, and I'd take him, 6'10 with supperior quickness, 1 on 1 vs the slower 6'6 center every time. He may not win the majority of the battles, but Draymond will end up in foul trouble.

You're acting like imparting toughness, tenacity, and physicality in a guy is a simple as whispering some inspiring words in his ear before he takes the court. While I agree with you on Simmons' physical skills, I don't think he has the mentality to do the things you think he can do with them. I'd rather play Marcus Smart at center than Simmons, because I know Marcus will put his entire body and soul into defending his position and even though he's giving up 8 inches and 50 lbs probably do a damn fine job. Not so incidentally, these same mental traits are what make Draymond Green so good at center.

(Also SMH at some skinny passive kid who couldn't even win a thing in college coming into the league and being a bad matchup for one of the 10 best players in the entire league on day 1).

I'm all for putting smaller guys at center and spreading the court, but with Simmons I'd rather play him at PG than watch him be destroyed at center. Given the long strides he need to make on defense, developing him as a perimeter defender first seems like the best path forward. Centers and PFs need to direct the defense, talk constantly, and be adept help defenders and I really don't see Simmons doing any of that for a long time (if ever).

You're arguing his offensive position vs his defensive position. You stick him at the 5 to counter the look from a team like GS, otherwise you leave him as a face-up 4, much like Giannis or LeBron.

I'm arguing that he needs the ball in his hands on offense to be effective and he needs to hidden on the worst perimeter player on defense. In other words, I'm arguing that playing him at center is MADNESS JERRY.

The guys who match up well with Draymond would be Millsap/Diaw right now and Aaron Gordon within 1-2 years. Simmons needs to play PG (on offense) a la Giannis to get his immense talent to flower IMO. Then hide him on the weakest perimeter threat on defense.

Given that Simmons is taller, stronger and more athletic than Gordon, I don't find it a stretch to say he could be an effective counter as a small ball center. He has the tools, he just needs focus. With a good coach and a defined role, he will definitely be serviceable on that end from the get go.

See above. Thinking coaches and the right role will change Simmons' mentality is foolish.

This next part isn't directed at you, but more in general, so my apology if I appear to be directing it at you:

I have no idea when it happened, but Simmons went from being criminally overrated (he's not LeBron) to being criminally underrated. The guy will be 1 of the three most athletic PF's in the league from day 1, with an elite first step and awesome second leap. He's a Russell Westbrook caliber athlete, where he just wont compare to the majority of his peers at the NBA level.

And for all the crap about him not being able to shoot, the guy scored 19 a game in conference due to his handle/first step combination. I mean, defenses absolutely camped out in the paint (which can't happen in the NBA) and he still found creases and went to the line 11 times a game in conference.

He's a relentless rebounder, which, in combination with his FTA's, show me that he's not afraid to get physical at the next level. His vision is elite, and he will average more than 5 a game from his rookie year on.

He's not the best prospect since LeBron (Oden). He's not the best prospect since Oden (Davis). But he's a tantalizing talent that I guarantee you Stevens is salivating to coach. He's an elite athlete with the ability to play multiple positions, and really everything you could ask for from a top draft pick. Good coaching will absolutely turn him into a superstar in this league-- he's built to dominate the modern pace and space game. He will be a nightmare in transition.

I agree with much of this. I think the right coach is hugely important for Simmons (someone who's shown an aversion to coaching or challenging himself so far in his short life). But the right coach will challenge him mentally on the one hand (asking him to show up mentally 100% of the time no matter how the game is going) while also putting him in the best position to accentuate his strengths on the court (facilitating, rebounding, transition opportunities). I don't think "Center" has a part to play in any of this, not for a guy who plays shorter than his listed height. In maybe 5-7 years, once he physically matures, I could see Simmons being the tallest guy in some 5 man unit with great shooting around him, but even in that scenario I don't want him banging with centers I want him cracking back from the perimeter for defensive rebound opportunities so he can start the break. Let some 6'6" Draymond Green-lite guy do that kind of dirty work (and it is dirty work and if you don't get the necessity of putting guys who like wearing their hard hat to work and mixing it up down low then you don't get the center position).

Repeating a falsehood multiple times doesn't make it true. He averaged 11RPG and 11FTA a game in conference. He's obviously willing and able to get physical, he just needs to exert that effort more consistently (which comes from coaching).

And what's this crap about him being skinny? He's a solid 240 with a frame to support 255 easily. Calling Ben Simmons 'skinny' is not a valid criticism. At all.

[Gomes3PC]

Just to clarify- in no way should Simmons spend the majority of his time banging in the post. His first step/handle combination is lethal and he needs the ball in his hand from the wing on offense when he's on the court. On defense, I feel he can be a small ball 5 as a counter to teams running the same, but this shouldn't be near his primary position. He should be hid with Crowder covering the more dangerous of the opponents 3/4.

I agree with this, but it scares me to be drafting a guy top-2 who you'd have to hide defensively. That's not what you really hope for out of a top pick.