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Hayward Undecided

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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#361 » by Homerclease » Thu Jun 1, 2017 6:45 pm

sully00 wrote:
Homerclease wrote:
sully00 wrote:
The problem with this approach is you box yourself in. Your the mirror image of the Sixers, nobody is going to want to help you. If your sitting their with Thomas, Smart, Bradley, Fultz, Hayward, Crowder, Brown, after likely having let KO, Amir, and Jerebko walk to make it happen as the GM of another team I know you have to make a move why I am going to want to pay retail to help you?

You aren't boxed in at all. First they have to trade a guy to even fit Hayward at the max and second, Bradley and Smart are free agents next year anyway. They have a chance to upgrade to a far superior player for only money and the reason not to is they might have to trade a role player for 50 cents on the dollar? How does that make any sense??


How is Bradley a role player? What role are you expecting Hayward to fill? If this team isn't a year or two away from expecting Fultz to be jacking up 18-20 shots a game we are drafting the wrong guy. Your expecting Hayward to replace either Bradley or Crowder and in either case your going to get the same perimeter shooting, a little more scoring, less rebounding, and take a step back defensively. I think Hayward is a good player but so are Crowder and Bradley. This team needs a PF or C who can score in the post and rebound how does paying Hayward 30 mil dollars a year help that goal?

If your drafting a PF/C it makes sense but for you to have two solid veterans on contracts that facilitate the cap space and you have drafted 3 guards and a SF over the last 4 drafts that are in your rotation and 3 of them top 6 picks why are we using cap space to get a SG/SF?

Now if we are going to swing a trade with Utah that lands us Hayward and Favors maybe we are looking at scenario where your not just getting the slight upgrade but also solving the larger issue in the front court that may be more interesting.

Bradley is the definition of role player. When asked to take on a larger role he struggles mightily. Hayward was the number 1 option on a 50 win Jazz team. He's a large step up from our current wing players. If bradley could consistently give you 22 points a night like a Hayward we'd be talking about maxing him out, not signing a free agent.

I expect Hayward to fill a role of number 1 scoring option. I expect much better shooting from him than i would Jae or Avery who are largely streak shooters. I expect a guy that can create his own offense and create for others as well, something Bradley and Crowder can't do. I think he's an equal to if not better defender than Crowder with more size and athleticism to boot.

The big man comes next year. This team needs more talent across the board and going after a lesser player to fill a need when we have an opportunity to acquire a superior player that also fills a need is a mistake. We need 3 guys that we want taking 15 shots a game, right now we have one
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#362 » by Banks2Pierce » Thu Jun 1, 2017 6:46 pm

GregB wrote:
I think Smart and potentially #37 for a pick in the 18-25 range is a simple trade. Then I would take Giles or Jonathan Jeanne from France as a developmental big.



Yeah, this is why I doubt Smart gets moved. I feel like he's the one that will have the weakest market relative to his impact on the court. Don't feel great about his fit with Fultz, though.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#363 » by GregB » Thu Jun 1, 2017 9:20 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:Can we skip the Fultz hype, please? It's way too early to call him a sure fire all star or an "elite creator," blah blah blah. Is Andrew Wiggins any of those things? Wiggins been in the league for three years already. Imagine Fultz in 3 years being as good as Wiggins is now. Does that give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about the Celtics' championship hopes?


That's a pretty poor comparison to prove a point.

Wiggins was a fairly limited offensive player coming out of college. He relied on his athleticism a bunch. Similar to Josh Jackson.

Fultz is the most advanced ball handling prospect since Kyrie Irving. Fultz will have a lot to learn but figuring out to take a guy off the dribble one on one won't be one of them.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#364 » by Curmudgeon » Thu Jun 1, 2017 9:24 pm

Oh Baloney-- Here's just one article on Wiggins:

"Wiggins makes it easy for us to believe the hype is real.

That's because he's capable of making plays that simply can't be duplicated. The 5-star commit to Kansas is a jaw-dropper. With maximum natural ability, a two-way skill set and a strong head on his shoulders, Wiggins' potential is limitless.


So what is it about this "natural ability" that makes this kid so special? The name of the game for elite athletes like Wiggins is easy buckets and converting difficult scoring angles into easy looks.

The NBA's top-scoring athletes are tough to stop from separating, finishing and getting to the line. Their explosiveness allows them to soar over the traffic as opposed to most, who are forced to navigate through it.

Wiggins would immediately enter the NBA as one of the premiere athletes in the league, but for now we'll just compare him with others at his position. LeBron James stands alone, given the size, mass and strength he adds to it.

Other than James, Wiggins would sit in a tier along with Blake Griffin in terms of natural athleticism for a forward. I'd rank him as a top-three athlete amongst rotational 3s and 4s, assuming he adds a few pounds to his 6'8", 205-pound frame between now and 2014.

Guys like Kevin Durant, Paul George and Josh Smith are all phenomenal athletes, but Wiggins has 'em beat. He's got effortless lift, along with the balance, footwork, speed and agility to carve his way through gaps and rise above challengers."


Blah blah blah blah. Just substitute "Fultz" for "Wiggins" in the above example of verbal diarrhea if it makes you happy.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#365 » by OFWGKTA » Thu Jun 1, 2017 9:30 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:Oh Baloney-- Here's just one article on Wiggins:

"Wiggins makes it easy for us to believe the hype is real.

That's because he's capable of making plays that simply can't be duplicated. The 5-star commit to Kansas is a jaw-dropper. With maximum natural ability, a two-way skill set and a strong head on his shoulders, Wiggins' potential is limitless.


Spoiler:
So what is it about this "natural ability" that makes this kid so special? The name of the game for elite athletes like Wiggins is easy buckets and converting difficult scoring angles into easy looks.

The NBA's top-scoring athletes are tough to stop from separating, finishing and getting to the line. Their explosiveness allows them to soar over the traffic as opposed to most, who are forced to navigate through it.

Wiggins would immediately enter the NBA as one of the premiere athletes in the league, but for now we'll just compare him with others at his position. LeBron James stands alone, given the size, mass and strength he adds to it.

Other than James, Wiggins would sit in a tier along with Blake Griffin in terms of natural athleticism for a forward. I'd rank him as a top-three athlete amongst rotational 3s and 4s, assuming he adds a few pounds to his 6'8", 205-pound frame between now and 2014.

Guys like Kevin Durant, Paul George and Josh Smith are all phenomenal athletes, but Wiggins has 'em beat. He's got effortless lift, along with the balance, footwork, speed and agility to carve his way through gaps and rise above challengers."


Blah blah blah blah. Just substitute "Fultz" for "Wiggins" in the above example of verbal diarrhea if it makes you happy
.


Shouldn't you use an article that came out before he played a college game? Wiggins' hype was much higher before he played college ball. And that article is basically just calling Wiggins an elite athlete, which is true.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#366 » by Curmudgeon » Thu Jun 1, 2017 9:36 pm

Some of you guys just need to take a cold shower when it comes to Fultz. He's a terrible fit for the Celtics roster and very questionable as a defender. If the hype is real, Ainge should trade the pick. If it isn't real, he should draft someone else.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#367 » by bucknersrevenge » Thu Jun 1, 2017 9:57 pm

Nothing wrong with that scouting report. As the #1 pick Wiggins not only had a high ceiling, but also a high floor due to his elite athleticism. And that has borne out so far. The reason he hasn't developed into that more "transcendent" player could be due to a myriad of factors: coaching and skill development, roster composition, work ethic, etc.

But the point is to get the best talent and try to help that player reach his maximum potential. Fultz has the best 2-way potential. You pick him and put him in an environment designed to maximize his efficiency as a player. Not every player can be Dragan Bender or Frank Ntilikina.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#368 » by Curmudgeon » Thu Jun 1, 2017 10:04 pm

We're still waiting for Wiggins to make the playoffs........Too bad all of those wondrous skills and elite athleticism hasn't translated into wins.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#369 » by CeltsfaninDC » Thu Jun 1, 2017 10:18 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:Blah blah blah blah. Just substitute "Fultz" for "Wiggins" in the above example of verbal diarrhea if it makes you happy.


He's not wrong here....... and its the reason why I am still an advocate for trading the pick(s) away for an establish star. Fultz MIGHT turn into something great, but he also might be an absolute bust. We KNOW what an NBA All-Star is going to produce
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#370 » by bucknersrevenge » Thu Jun 1, 2017 10:28 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:We're still waiting for Wiggins to make the playoffs........Too bad all of those wondrous skills and elite athleticism hasn't translated into wins.


Still waiting on Karl-Anthony Towns to make the playoffs as well. His skills are worthless also.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#371 » by Captain_Caveman » Thu Jun 1, 2017 10:30 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:We're still waiting for Wiggins to make the playoffs........Too bad all of those wondrous skills and elite athleticism hasn't translated into wins.


I would trade any two assets on this team besides the #1 pick for Wiggins with no hesitation.

Just averaged 24ppg as a 21yo. IT averaged 29ppg as a 27-28yo and people have him prepped for the HOF.

Way too soon to judge him. Only 1.5 years older than Jaylen.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#372 » by Homerclease » Thu Jun 1, 2017 10:40 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:We're still waiting for Wiggins to make the playoffs........Too bad all of those wondrous skills and elite athleticism hasn't translated into wins.


I would trade any two assets on this team besides the #1 pick for Wiggins with no hesitation.

Just averaged 24ppg as a 21yo. IT averaged 29ppg as a 27-28yo and people have him prepped for the HOF.

Way too soon to judge him. Only 1.5 years older than Jaylen.

I'm baffled, he's actually arguing that a prospect equivalent to Andrew Wiggins is somehow a bad thing. Never mind the fact that Wiggins first two years were more or less wasted by Smitch while we have a coach like Brad
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#373 » by bucknersrevenge » Thu Jun 1, 2017 10:41 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:We're still waiting for Wiggins to make the playoffs........Too bad all of those wondrous skills and elite athleticism hasn't translated into wins.


I would trade any two assets on this team besides the #1 pick for Wiggins with no hesitation.

Just averaged 24ppg as a 21yo. IT averaged 29ppg as a 27-28yo and people have him prepped for the HOF.

Way too soon to judge him. Only 1.5 years older than Jaylen.


Exactly. I'm not even sure how this is debatable. That kid is still sitting on a truckload of 2-way potential. His jumpshot was much improved this year. Still learning the finer points of defense but the measurable are all still there. Everything else is between the ears which is probably just experience.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#374 » by bucknersrevenge » Thu Jun 1, 2017 10:43 pm

Homerclease wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:We're still waiting for Wiggins to make the playoffs........Too bad all of those wondrous skills and elite athleticism hasn't translated into wins.


I would trade any two assets on this team besides the #1 pick for Wiggins with no hesitation.

Just averaged 24ppg as a 21yo. IT averaged 29ppg as a 27-28yo and people have him prepped for the HOF.

Way too soon to judge him. Only 1.5 years older than Jaylen.

I'm baffled, he's actually arguing that a prospect equivalent to Andrew Wiggins is somehow a bad thing. Never mind the fact that Wiggins first two years were more or less wasted by Smitch while we have a coach like Brad


Nobody really understands that guy. And I'm not saying that as a diss, just an observation over time. I honestly don't think many people understand him. Not that anyone has to. Just is what it is I think.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#375 » by Homerclease » Thu Jun 1, 2017 10:51 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
Homerclease wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
I would trade any two assets on this team besides the #1 pick for Wiggins with no hesitation.

Just averaged 24ppg as a 21yo. IT averaged 29ppg as a 27-28yo and people have him prepped for the HOF.

Way too soon to judge him. Only 1.5 years older than Jaylen.

I'm baffled, he's actually arguing that a prospect equivalent to Andrew Wiggins is somehow a bad thing. Never mind the fact that Wiggins first two years were more or less wasted by Smitch while we have a coach like Brad


Nobody really understands that guy. And I'm not saying that as a diss, just an observation over time. I honestly don't think many people understand him. Not that anyone has to. Just is what it is I think.

I can't emphasize enough just how bad a coach Smitch was too. I wouldn't want that guy coaching my 10 year olds YMCA team. Playing for a guy like Brad in a winning environment makes a world of difference. Fultz is gonna learn to play the right way early in his career because we have the luxury of stapling his ass to the bench if we so choose
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#376 » by Captain_Caveman » Thu Jun 1, 2017 10:56 pm

Homerclease wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
Homerclease wrote:I'm baffled, he's actually arguing that a prospect equivalent to Andrew Wiggins is somehow a bad thing. Never mind the fact that Wiggins first two years were more or less wasted by Smitch while we have a coach like Brad


Nobody really understands that guy. And I'm not saying that as a diss, just an observation over time. I honestly don't think many people understand him. Not that anyone has to. Just is what it is I think.

I can't emphasize enough just how bad a coach Smitch was too. I wouldn't want that guy coaching my 10 year olds YMCA team. Playing for a guy like Brad in a winning environment makes a world of difference. Fultz is gonna learn to play the right way early in his career because we have the luxury of stapling his ass to the bench if we so choose


Player development is such an underrated aspect of drafting. I feel like people often assume that the same prospect would have the same success or failure in all situations, but that's not true at all.

Do the Spurs draft well? Of course. But like the Patriots, where they really excel is developing tough, smart, intelligent players within an unselfish system that everyone buys into.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#377 » by Homerclease » Thu Jun 1, 2017 11:02 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Homerclease wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
Nobody really understands that guy. And I'm not saying that as a diss, just an observation over time. I honestly don't think many people understand him. Not that anyone has to. Just is what it is I think.

I can't emphasize enough just how bad a coach Smitch was too. I wouldn't want that guy coaching my 10 year olds YMCA team. Playing for a guy like Brad in a winning environment makes a world of difference. Fultz is gonna learn to play the right way early in his career because we have the luxury of stapling his ass to the bench if we so choose


Player development is such an underrated aspect of drafting. I feel like people often assume that the same prospect would have the same success or failure in all situations, but that's not true at all.

Do the Spurs draft well? Of course. But like the Patriots, where they really excel is developing tough, smart, intelligent players within an unselfish system that everyone buys into.

This, there is a reason why the moment wasn't too big for a guy like Jaylen Brown by the time the playoffs rolled around. If he wasn't doing his job during the regular season then the hook came and it came quick. Browns defense improved 10 fold throughout the season because of it. Fultz will see much of the same, if he's blowing rotations left and right on D and doesn't know where to be on O, he rides pine and we can still win anyway. Fultz is far less raw than Jaylen was and should see a much bigger role as a rookie IMO
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#378 » by bucknersrevenge » Thu Jun 1, 2017 11:02 pm

Homerclease wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
Homerclease wrote:I'm baffled, he's actually arguing that a prospect equivalent to Andrew Wiggins is somehow a bad thing. Never mind the fact that Wiggins first two years were more or less wasted by Smitch while we have a coach like Brad


Nobody really understands that guy. And I'm not saying that as a diss, just an observation over time. I honestly don't think many people understand him. Not that anyone has to. Just is what it is I think.

I can't emphasize enough just how bad a coach Smitch was too. I wouldn't want that guy coaching my 10 year olds YMCA team. Playing for a guy like Brad in a winning environment makes a world of difference. Fultz is gonna learn to play the right way early in his career because we have the luxury of stapling his ass to the bench if we so choose


Indeed. And some of Fultz's defensive problems are not just about effort. From a technique standpoint, he didn't use his wingspan nearly enough. In an attempt to not reach or pick up ticky-tack fouls, Fultz often over compensated, keeping his hands way back making him "play smaller" than he actually is. Even when he wanted to contest or bother a shot, he was rarely in position to do so. He probably would have racked up more steals if he had played a bit more physical and took a couple of calculated gambles. But I suspect he didn't want to get a foul and end up on the bench because they needed his offense. Honestly, I don't give a **** if he fouls out his first bunch of games. He needs to learn how to use his length properly. I want him hacking away in Summer League if that's what's required for him to learn how to do that.
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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#379 » by bucknersrevenge » Thu Jun 1, 2017 11:10 pm

Just to further illustrate my last point about technique Watch this video and pay attention to where his hands are all the time. There is definitely effort issues. And clearly he's trying not to foul because he doesn't want to come out. But watch him in comparison to some of his teammates. His hands are nowhere near the basketball or the player. He doesn't impact the ball or the play and that's at least partly technique.

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Re: Hayward Undecided 

Post#380 » by LarryBirdsFingr » Thu Jun 1, 2017 11:15 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Homerclease wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
Nobody really understands that guy. And I'm not saying that as a diss, just an observation over time. I honestly don't think many people understand him. Not that anyone has to. Just is what it is I think.

I can't emphasize enough just how bad a coach Smitch was too. I wouldn't want that guy coaching my 10 year olds YMCA team. Playing for a guy like Brad in a winning environment makes a world of difference. Fultz is gonna learn to play the right way early in his career because we have the luxury of stapling his ass to the bench if we so choose


Player development is such an underrated aspect of drafting. I feel like people often assume that the same prospect would have the same success or failure in all situations, but that's not true at all.

Do the Spurs draft well? Of course. But like the Patriots, where they really excel is developing tough, smart, intelligent players within an unselfish system that everyone buys into.

Prime example, check out kevin durant in tonights game. He has finally learned to pass, and same with russ...once they weren't coached by iso scotty
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