"WCIHAoTDP?" - 2016 Draft Thread P.2

[lon3lytoaster]

Just to clarify- in no way should Simmons spend the majority of his time banging in the post. His first step/handle combination is lethal and he needs the ball in his hand from the wing on offense when he's on the court. On defense, I feel he can be a small ball 5 as a counter to teams running the same, but this shouldn't be near his primary position. He should be hid with Crowder covering the more dangerous of the opponents 3/4.

I agree with this, but it scares me to be drafting a guy top-2 who you'd have to hide defensively. That's not what you really hope for out of a top pick.

Here's my thing. He can be good defensively. He just loafs around and doesn't care on a majority (seemingly) of possessions. That's what's scary. Talents there. Can his mind ever be at the same place? I may have my doubts.

And for a player of his caliber to show any visible lack of confidence is also troublesome. He looked terrified of jump shots. I honestly don't even think his shot is that broken, but Simmons seems to.

[165bows]

Can't think of a single worse matchup for Simmons than Draymond Green.

[ryaningf]

Repeating a falsehood multiple times doesn't make it true. He averaged 11RPG and 11FTA a game in conference. He's obviously willing and able to get physical, he just needs to exert that effort more consistently (which comes from coaching).

And what's this crap about him being skinny? He's a solid 240 with a frame to support 255 easily. Calling Ben Simmons 'skinny' is not a valid criticism. At all.

Some guys play bigger than their size, other guys smaller than their size. Simmons is one of the latter. It's not what the scale says, it's how he uses it that matters. The rebounds and FTA are nice, but aren't proxies for toughness or physicality. You can be a finesse rebounder (a la KG) or a finesse foul magnet at any size.

Laying the blame for lackadaisical effort on his college coach is lame. Simmons picked his coach, and it was in keeping with a long line of decisions, he picked a situation where he would not be challenged or threatened. One characteristic that tends to predict greatness is seeking out challenges, putting oneself in situations where you could possibly fail, and doing so because you wish to push yourself and grow. I don't see that characteristic in Ben and I wish I did. He's got way too many skills to be a bust but few of the mental characteristics that suggest he'll reach his potential. I like him A LOT and would enjoy the hell out of him if he played for the Cs (despite my skepticism that he'll ever reach his vast potential he remains the most purely exciting and fun to watch player in this draft) but he's not my #1 pick.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Can't think of a single worse matchup for Simmons than Draymond Green.

Off the top of my head? Kawhi Leonard. Jimmy Butler Anthony Davis. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. LeBron James. I can keep going if you want.

Edit- my point is, and remains, that Draymond isn't going to punish Simmons offensively. He's not an elite offensive weapon, and doesn't have it in him to steal anyone's soul offensively. And if they want to iso Draymond on Simmons- go for it, it's a win by default because the ball is not in Curry's hands.

Draymond is a world beater defensively, but he's 6'6 and isn't as quick as Simmons. He doesn't challenge people daily who have a tremendous handle. Simmons will be able to get a crease on him. Draymond will win the majority of the match ups, as I stated, but he will end up in foul trouble.

Draymond is a good player, but he's not KG defensively (who had his own weaknesses vs post players). He's not a guy who erases you from the planet, especially when you have incredible talent. The reason he's so good defensively is because he's a great matchup vs centers, and they can't match up with him on the perimeter on the other end. He's quicker/ stronger/ longer than 95% of the guys he goes against. This is the 5% where he doesn't have the same advantages.

Again, he'd still win the majority of his match ups. But statements saying he'd have Simmons crying on the bench are absolutely ludicrous.

[threrf23]

And for a player of his caliber to show any visible lack of confidence is also troublesome. He looked terrified of jump shots. I honestly don't even think his shot is that broken, but Simmons seems to.

Based on all the scouting reports, it seems more likely that he is simply scared of being selfish, taking a bad shot. That is actually reminiscent of KG.

On defense he may have been looking to stay out of foul trouble. He averaged 3 fouls per game.

[165bows]

Can't think of a single worse matchup for Simmons than Draymond Green.

Off the top of my head? Kawhi Leonard. Jimmy Butler Anthony Davis. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. LeBron James. I can keep going if you want.

Agree on Kawhi. Butler is a SG/SF so pretty much irrelevant positionally.

Davis is a possibility. MKG is the perfect place to hide Simmons on D so disagree there. James is a bad matchup for everyone but at least there is the benefit of making him work on the ball (where he's worse on D than off the ball) every possession.

So yes a slight exaggeration but for sure in the top group.

Everyone is happy to see the rest of the list though.


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[165bows]

@chadfordinsider: Just 2 players in our Top 30 remain undecided about declaring for the 2016 draft — Jaylen Brown and Ivan Rabb.

That'd be a gyp if these guys stay in. Would thin out that top-15 or so a bit.

[ConstableGeneva]

[Tweet]https://twitter.com/CelticsHub/status/720347946605121536[/Tweet]

[Gomes3PC]

@chadfordinsider: Just 2 players in our Top 30 remain undecided about declaring for the 2016 draft — Jaylen Brown and Ivan Rabb.

That'd be a gyp if these guys stay in. Would thin out that top-15 or so a bit.

Would be a real surprise if they didn't leave, but Brown especially could use another year in college. Other than his body, nothing about his game is NBA-ready.

[No-Man]

It sounds like both are leaning towards staying at Cal.

[AlCelticFan]

So if we end up with the 3rd pick, who do we draft?

[Afam]

Trade the Pick for an Established player . Cousins, Blake Griffin ,and Butler if it helps bring in Durant.

[Avalanche]

So if we end up with the 3rd pick, who do we draft?

I think outside the top 2 the obvious play is for an established star, as Afam said..

However, say a deal like that simply isn't available or viable and we are essentially forced to make the pick ourselves?

I'd be leaning towards Bender, pending workouts.. he's the real swing for the fences pick

I do like both the guys from Cal

Dunn and Hield can play, no doubt, but adding another guard without other significant moves first wouldn't go down well

[ParticleMan]

It sounds like both are leaning towards staying at Cal.

yeah, they are pretty sour about how their season ended under a black cloud. plus last year wallace was actually their leader and go-to guy, but he graduated so they would get to show their stuff more.

but if cuonzo leaves i think they will leave too, i'm guessing they're waiting to see how that settles. they may not want to play for a new coach and system when they're trying to showcase.

plus as has been said both could really use some seasoning. brown could be a #1 pick if he puts it together.

[rony zeira]

I don't follow college bball that much, so this is really just a hunch more than anything, but I'd go with Hield. his shooting is amazing, which the C's really need (Especially in today's league which is all about shooting), he's size is ok for the 2 position (Not great, but not bad either) and from what I've read, his work ethic and intensity are really high while his drawbacks are something that could be handled with the right coach and system.

Four years from now, when his rookie deal is up, Bender will be same age Hield is right now. Think about that. Compare Hield with what you think Bender will look after 4 years of development.

It's easy to forget that Bender is 18 year old kid playing against grown men, while Hield is 22 year old senior playing against (mostly) kids. Bender is much better prospect and it's not even close.

Edit: Sorry for off topic, but thought it's important to point this out.

Continuing from the other thread...

Yes, Bender is only 18 and has lots of room to grow, but there are certain things that are either there or not and are harder to develop than physical strength or even shooting, things like, tenacity, focus and intesity, and Bender did not show much of any of them, in lots of games he just kinda stood there waiting for someone to find him for the open 3 or he would lose his man on defense way too often. He does have the frame to bulk up and become stronger, but without the right attitude, he will still be a 3pt shooting, no-defense, no-rebound type of player, which is ok if you are a bench guy who comes in a gives a nice offensive spark every other game, but from a theoretical 3rd pick in the draft, I'd like to see a lot more.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Repeating a falsehood multiple times doesn't make it true. He averaged 11RPG and 11FTA a game in conference. He's obviously willing and able to get physical, he just needs to exert that effort more consistently (which comes from coaching).

And what's this crap about him being skinny? He's a solid 240 with a frame to support 255 easily. Calling Ben Simmons 'skinny' is not a valid criticism. At all.

Some guys play bigger than their size, other guys smaller than their size. Simmons is one of the latter. It's not what the scale says, it's how he uses it that matters. The rebounds and FTA are nice, but aren't proxies for toughness or physicality. You can be a finesse rebounder (a la KG) or a finesse foul magnet at any size.

Laying the blame for lackadaisical effort on his college coach is lame. Simmons picked his coach, and it was in keeping with a long line of decisions, he picked a situation where he would not be challenged or threatened. One characteristic that tends to predict greatness is seeking out challenges, putting oneself in situations where you could possibly fail, and doing so because you wish to push yourself and grow. I don't see that characteristic in Ben and I wish I did. He's got way too many skills to be a bust but few of the mental characteristics that suggest he'll reach his potential. I like him A LOT and would enjoy the hell out of him if he played for the Cs (despite my skepticism that he'll ever reach his vast potential he remains the most purely exciting and fun to watch player in this draft) but he's not my #1 pick.

One comparison for Simmons would be Mike Dunleavy, Jr. without any shooting.. Dunleavy had rave reviews coming out of college, was supposedly a do-everything player, and it just didn't translate.

Anyway I'm just frustrated in advance with this team's lotto luck, but with Hield, Bender and Dunn, we could have a lot of trade options on draft night. I think Okafor and Cousins will be the targets..

[Murta]

Bender is going to be gold for a team which knows how to develop him and not to expect much for first two years and it doesn't make sense to draft him if both boxes aren't checked.
Let's not forget Dirk was physically over-matched and looked like $hit until he was 22.

[pfm]

Bender is going to be gold for a team which knows how to develop him and not to expect much for first two years and it doesn't make sense to draft him if both boxes aren't checked.
Let's not forget Dirk was physically over-matched and looked like $hit until he was 22.

I'm definitely a Bender fan (#3 on my board), but I think the team he goes to is critical in reaching his full potential. That's true for all players, but I think particularly true with Bender. That applies both in terms of organization (strong and committed to his development) as well as his coaching (playing a style that will properly utilize his unique skillset. I actually think the C's/Ainge/Stevens are an excellent fit, but if the C's decide to cash in assets now, I'm not sure their timeline will be aligned with Bender's (and they could very likely trade the pick if that's the case).

[SmartWentCrazy]

Repeating a falsehood multiple times doesn't make it true. He averaged 11RPG and 11FTA a game in conference. He's obviously willing and able to get physical, he just needs to exert that effort more consistently (which comes from coaching).

And what's this crap about him being skinny? He's a solid 240 with a frame to support 255 easily. Calling Ben Simmons 'skinny' is not a valid criticism. At all.

Some guys play bigger than their size, other guys smaller than their size. Simmons is one of the latter. It's not what the scale says, it's how he uses it that matters. The rebounds and FTA are nice, but aren't proxies for toughness or physicality. You can be a finesse rebounder (a la KG) or a finesse foul magnet at any size.

Laying the blame for lackadaisical effort on his college coach is lame. Simmons picked his coach, and it was in keeping with a long line of decisions, he picked a situation where he would not be challenged or threatened. One characteristic that tends to predict greatness is seeking out challenges, putting oneself in situations where you could possibly fail, and doing so because you wish to push yourself and grow. I don't see that characteristic in Ben and I wish I did. He's got way too many skills to be a bust but few of the mental characteristics that suggest he'll reach his potential. I like him A LOT and would enjoy the hell out of him if he played for the Cs (despite my skepticism that he'll ever reach his vast potential he remains the most purely exciting and fun to watch player in this draft) but he's not my #1 pick.

One comparison for Simmons would be Mike Dunleavy, Jr. without any shooting.. Dunleavy had rave reviews coming out of college, was supposedly a do-everything player, and it just didn't translate.

Anyway I'm just frustrated in advance with this team's lotto luck, but with Hield, Bender and Dunn, we could have a lot of trade options on draft night. I think Okafor and Cousins will be the targets..

Oh man... Have you even seen Simmons play? He'll be one of the three most athletic PF's in the league from day one with the handle of a PG. What an atrocious comparison...

[jbs]

According to this (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25553972/nba-draft-2016-lottery-odds-set-final-draft-order-nearly-in-place) tiebreakers decide whether the Celtics get 16 or 17 pick and the 21–24 pick.