Celtics General Offseason (incl. Trade) Thread, 2019

[K For Three]

Kyrie is absolutely a 2...keep letting a horrible playoff run blind you. Just like we overated Jaylen and Tatum off last years great playoffs now your killing kyrie based off his terrible performance- find the middle ground and get real.

You might be the best new poster I've seen here in 10 years.

This forum has been so hot take lately nobody can see the truth among all the agendas.

Yes, Kyrie isn't kd or LeBron perfect. He won't win a title by himself. Most don't. He also isn't trash and he is a star who attracts other stars. If he leaves for nothing it is poor for us. This isn't starbury where it's addition by subtraction. His leaving is just subtraction and we have zero ability to replace that salary slot. We would have to use another max spot in Hayward to replace him.

Me. Trade for ad. Keep Kyrie. Trade the last of our assets to pick up another max guy in trade with haywards contract. Keep horford. Try and win it.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using RealGM mobile app

Agree with the bolded save for Hayward, who I think you have to bring back and hope he returns something close to form.

A little suspicious about whether Kyrie's still as much of a draw with other guys as he was a couple of years back.

Lebron still has the hots for Kyrie.

Although this isn't so much about Kyrie attracting other stars, but does BOSTON attract other stars? What there is to offer here so to speak. Are we a "good destination" or do we just have to trade for stars and pray that they stay.

[jcappy]

Irving's strengths are immeasurable and his weaknesses are immeasurable. He's the kind of player who when multiple teams want him--esp for a max contract, I say, winner is loser.

[fallguy]

You might be the best new poster I've seen here in 10 years.

This forum has been so hot take lately nobody can see the truth among all the agendas.

Yes, Kyrie isn't kd or LeBron perfect. He won't win a title by himself. Most don't. He also isn't trash and he is a star who attracts other stars. If he leaves for nothing it is poor for us. This isn't starbury where it's addition by subtraction. His leaving is just subtraction and we have zero ability to replace that salary slot. We would have to use another max spot in Hayward to replace him.

Me. Trade for ad. Keep Kyrie. Trade the last of our assets to pick up another max guy in trade with haywards contract. Keep horford. Try and win it.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using RealGM mobile app

Agree with the bolded save for Hayward, who I think you have to bring back and hope he returns something close to form.

A little suspicious about whether Kyrie's still as much of a draw with other guys as he was a couple of years back.

Lebron still has the hots for Kyrie.

Although this isn't so much about Kyrie attracting other stars, but does BOSTON attract other stars? What there is to offer here so to speak. Are we a "good destination" or do we just have to trade for stars and pray that they stay.

Oh yeah, Boston attracts stars now. Horford and Hayward signed as free agents. Kyrie wanted to come here. Ainge and Stevens are draws for players as well, as is the general organizational stability.

[MagicBagley18]

Of course Ainge wants to keep Kyrie. Because he's the path to AD re-signing in Boston next summer. But that's not really an argument for or against Kyrie's particular virtues as a player or whether he's a 1, 2 or 3 on a title team.

No. However if he was such a detriment to the culture and enviroment of the team- why would ainge want such a toxic player back regardless of his talent?

[fallguy]

Of course Ainge wants to keep Kyrie. Because he's the path to AD re-signing in Boston next summer. But that's not really an argument for or against Kyrie's particular virtues as a player or whether he's a 1, 2 or 3 on a title team.

No. However if he was such a detriment to the culture and enviroment of the team- why would ainge want such a toxic player back regardless of his talent?

Well, he rolled with Rondo for years despite similar in-locker room problems. For reasons of talent (mostly). But the primary reason he'd want Kyrie back besides talent is landing AD.

[MagicBagley18]

Of course Ainge wants to keep Kyrie. Because he's the path to AD re-signing in Boston next summer. But that's not really an argument for or against Kyrie's particular virtues as a player or whether he's a 1, 2 or 3 on a title team.

No. However if he was such a detriment to the culture and enviroment of the team- why would ainge want such a toxic player back regardless of his talent?

Well, he rolled with Rondo for years despite similar in-locker room problems. For reasons of talent (mostly). But the primary reason he'd want Kyrie back besides talent is landing AD.

He also traded him away when it came time to re-sign him

[MagicBagley18]

Of course Ainge wants to keep Kyrie. Because he's the path to AD re-signing in Boston next summer. But that's not really an argument for or against Kyrie's particular virtues as a player or whether he's a 1, 2 or 3 on a title team.

No. However if he was such a detriment to the culture and enviroment of the team- why would ainge want such a toxic player back regardless of his talent?

Well, he rolled with Rondo for years despite similar in-locker room problems. For reasons of talent (mostly). But the primary reason he'd want Kyrie back besides talent is landing AD.

So by your own admission he’s talented and he attracts others top players? And we want to push him out the door.....why?

[fallguy]

No. However if he was such a detriment to the culture and enviroment of the team- why would ainge want such a toxic player back regardless of his talent?

Well, he rolled with Rondo for years despite similar in-locker room problems. For reasons of talent (mostly). But the primary reason he'd want Kyrie back besides talent is landing AD.

He also traded him away when it came time to re-sign him

Might have been different if Rondo hadn't had the injury, which ended his prime all at once. But it might not have been given how much havoc Rondo caused over the years.

[DarkAzcura]

You might be the best new poster I've seen here in 10 years.

This forum has been so hot take lately nobody can see the truth among all the agendas.

Yes, Kyrie isn't kd or LeBron perfect. He won't win a title by himself. Most don't. He also isn't trash and he is a star who attracts other stars. If he leaves for nothing it is poor for us. This isn't starbury where it's addition by subtraction. His leaving is just subtraction and we have zero ability to replace that salary slot. We would have to use another max spot in Hayward to replace him.

Me. Trade for ad. Keep Kyrie. Trade the last of our assets to pick up another max guy in trade with haywards contract. Keep horford. Try and win it.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using RealGM mobile app

Agree with the bolded save for Hayward, who I think you have to bring back and hope he returns something close to form.

A little suspicious about whether Kyrie's still as much of a draw with other guys as he was a couple of years back.

Lebron still has the hots for Kyrie.

Although this isn't so much about Kyrie attracting other stars, but does BOSTON attract other stars? What there is to offer here so to speak. Are we a "good destination" or do we just have to trade for stars and pray that they stay.

When the Celtics had cap space, all you could hear was about how much players wanted to come here. Horford chose to come. Hayward chose to come. Durant had us on his short list. The Celtics were on Chris Paul’s list right before he hit FA. Blake Griffin wanted to come here iirc.

I don’t know if the Celtics lost their luster in literally one year, but if they did, that would stink. The Celtics were on the up as a destination. It’s so odd to see it reverse so quickly. Could be the media. Part of me wonders if it is related to Kyrie. He is close to AD and KD, and I find it peculiar we aren’t on KD’s radar at all when we were up there just a couple years ago. It could be because we don’t have the space, but you can work that stuff out if you REALLY want to (see CP3 to the Rockets). Kyrie could be telling him to stay away, which would suck.

Either way, off-season should be fun..

[fallguy]

No. However if he was such a detriment to the culture and enviroment of the team- why would ainge want such a toxic player back regardless of his talent?

Well, he rolled with Rondo for years despite similar in-locker room problems. For reasons of talent (mostly). But the primary reason he'd want Kyrie back besides talent is landing AD.

So by your own admission he’s talented and he attracts others top players? And we want to push him out the door.....why?

I don't want to push him out the door if he lands us AD. I am onboard with bringing him back.

But he has critical flaws in his makeup and his game. He's not some once-in-a-generation talent. A huge Kyrie contract comes with real risk. Especially with his injury history.

And there are definitely guys in this league (former Cavaliers, current Celtics) who don't have much use for Kyrie as a teammate. So his draw as a talent attractor is specific and not universal.

I feel like I'm in the middle on Kyrie but have somehow been painted as someone who hates him.

At this point, I assume someone will mention IT.

[K For Three]

Agree with the bolded save for Hayward, who I think you have to bring back and hope he returns something close to form.

A little suspicious about whether Kyrie's still as much of a draw with other guys as he was a couple of years back.

Lebron still has the hots for Kyrie.

Although this isn't so much about Kyrie attracting other stars, but does BOSTON attract other stars? What there is to offer here so to speak. Are we a "good destination" or do we just have to trade for stars and pray that they stay.

When the Celtics had cap space, all you could hear was about how much players wanted to come here. Horford chose to come. Hayward chose to come. Durant had us on his short list. The Celtics were on Chris Paul’s list right before he hit FA. Blake Griffin wanted to come here iirc.

I don’t know if the Celtics lost their luster in literally one year, but if they did, that would stink. The Celtics were on the up as a destination. It’s so odd to see it reverse so quickly. Could be the media. Part of me wonders if it is related to Kyrie. He is close to AD and KD, and I find it peculiar we aren’t on KD’s radar at all when we were up there just a couple years ago. It could be because we don’t have the space, but you can work that stuff out if you REALLY want to (see CP3 to the Rockets). Kyrie could be telling him to stay away, which would suck.

Either way, off-season should be fun..

It sure will be an interesting offseason lol.

I think it sucks that Gordon didn't show he was "back" this past year enough. That hurts too. That injury was a killer to plans here.

And with the general media, I have often felt this past year there was a negative vibe in regards to the Celtics.

Also expectations here have been MASSIVE, puts a ton of pressure on players too. And with the other Boston teams all thriving, the Celtics are the ones where the bloom seems to have worn off the most. The season did not go nearly as planned but IMO expectations might have been too high to begin with. When Lebron left you could kinda just tell other east teams were going to improve and it happened right in front of us.

And yeah Kyrie is close to KD, AD and apparently Lebron again so who knows what gets said at times between them all.


I think we are all at times just waiting to see how the offseason plays out. I personally think Kyrie will go to NY or LA, but if he stays in Boston there will be deals where some guys are moved and he would stay for extra money. But his actions vs. the Bucks and comments led me to believe he had one foot out the door. I would be pretty suprised if he stayed.

edit: I hope he stays, but I am prepared for the break up.

[K For Three]

Bad night.

So sorry.

[soxfan2003]

If Kyrie is a #3 now then Gordon is a #9.

IMHO Gordon this year was an underutilized #4 who probably ended up having the impact of a #5...not good for 30 million but understandable given his injury and the roster logjam at SF. Rozier was a #6 placed in a bad situation for his skillset and not always dealing with it well so he looked like a #7. But Rozier probably thinks of himself as a #2 or #3.

I do think in right situation, Gordon is a #3 but he needs to be on a team that actually doesn't have 4 SFs and that needs him to score at least 17-18 PPG.

When I evaluate players, I am including defense for a lot and that hurts Hayward some and Irving even more. Kyrie on offensive end, I'd rate as a 1B but defense is what hurts his value.

In reality, I really think of any player below a #3 as a role player who isn't elite as a role player.

So, my #3 for Irving isn't meant to knock him to much.... I only have 2 6"3 and under PGs since 1980 as true #1's.

[bucknersrevenge]

Well, he rolled with Rondo for years despite similar in-locker room problems. For reasons of talent (mostly). But the primary reason he'd want Kyrie back besides talent is landing AD.

So by your own admission he’s talented and he attracts others top players? And we want to push him out the door.....why?

I don't want to push him out the door if he lands us AD. I am onboard with bringing him back.

But he has critical flaws in his makeup and his game. He's not some once-in-a-generation talent. A huge Kyrie contract comes with real risk. Especially with his injury history.

And there are definitely guys in this league (former Cavaliers, current Celtics) who don't have much use for Kyrie as a teammate. So his draw as a talent attractor is specific and not universal.

I feel like I'm in the middle on Kyrie but have somehow been painted as someone who hates him.

At this point, I assume someone will mention IT.

If someone wants to make an argument against Kyrie, this is the only one I'm listening to. This is the only one with anything resembling the merit to be cautious about. Kyrie has been banged up throughout his career. That said, I thought he was managed very well and he had his best season as a pro and is entering the prime of his career. You don't just let players like that leave. Hell at least sign him so that if it doesn't work out later you can trade him and get something back. That is the most shocking aspect of this whole debate. People are so willing to cut off their noses to spite their own faces. You would prefer letting a 26 year old 2nd Team All-NBA Guard entering his prime leave in such a fashion as to get NOTHING back in a trade?? Like I can't even get over how that thought process defies all reason. Even if you hate him, even if you think he's a lousy leader, even if you think he'll never get us over the top, SURELY you love the Celtics enough to want them to get something back for him if it doesn't work out right?? He has value around the league!!!

[K For Three]

If Kyrie is a #3 now then Gordon is a #9.

IMHO Gordon this year was an underutilized #4 who probably ended up having the impact of a #5...not good for 30 million but understandable given his injury and the roster logjam at SF. Rozier was a #6 placed in a bad situation for his skillset and not always dealing with it well so he looked like a #7. But Rozier probably thinks of himself as a #2 or #3.

I do think in right situation, Gordon is a #3 but he needs to be on a team that actually doesn't have 4 SFs and that needs him to score at least 17-18 PPG.

When I evaluate players, I am including defense for a lot and that hurts Hayward some and Irving even more. Kyrie on offensive end, I'd rate as a 1B but defense is what hurts his value.

In reality, I really think of any player below a #3 as a role player who isn't elite as a role player.

So, my #3 for Irving isn't meant to knock him to much.... I only have 2 6"3 and under PGs since 1980 as true #1's.

lol I was joking about the #9 thing. And of course Kyrie is what he is btw depending on the roster he is on too.

BTW how do you feel about Gordon's defensive potential since you did bring that up with including D.

[soxfan2003]

If Kyrie is a #3 now then Gordon is a #9.

IMHO Gordon this year was an underutilized #4 who probably ended up having the impact of a #5...not good for 30 million but understandable given his injury and the roster logjam at SF. Rozier was a #6 placed in a bad situation for his skillset and not always dealing with it well so he looked like a #7. But Rozier probably thinks of himself as a #2 or #3.

I do think in right situation, Gordon is a #3 but he needs to be on a team that actually doesn't have 4 SFs and that needs him to score at least 17-18 PPG.

When I evaluate players, I am including defense for a lot and that hurts Hayward some and Irving even more. Kyrie on offensive end, I'd rate as a 1B but defense is what hurts his value.

In reality, I really think of any player below a #3 as a role player who isn't elite as a role player.

So, my #3 for Irving isn't meant to knock him to much.... I only have 2 6"3 and under PGs since 1980 as true #1's.

lol I was joking about the #9 thing. And of course Kyrie is what he is btw depending on the roster he is on too.

BTW how do you feel about Gordon's defensive potential since you did bring that up with including D.

You may have seen me post this before but if you haven't check it out...

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

I realize why the Celtics didn't go for it big time before this trading deadline since they were saving up first round picks to make a run at Davis but when you read that article above, it does make me question why when Morris asked for a trade in the preseason, the Celtics didn't try to trade him and 2 seconds for more of a natural PF/C. Without such a move, the Celtics were limiting their chances to get lucky this postseason since Horford is too old to carry such a crazy load and kind of unfair to ask him given the Celtics don't have a SF that can step up on D like Leonard. C's needed someone ideally better than Baynes at 5 or Morris at 4 to help out Horford. At the deadline I understood why Ainge didn't want to trade Morris since he was excited about the playoffs.

Gordon was at least a good defender with Utah from what I saw but I think increased age plus injury have me not expecting anything beyond slight to modest improvement in ability compared to what we saw vs Milwaukee and Indiana.

Professional defense but end of the day not the Giannis container the Celtics need at the SF position. I would like him to be one of the players to volunteer to sacrifice his body to defend Giannis and then a player like Davis can block him from the weak side. Tatum seems too thin right now for that role. I don't think Morris is good enough to start on a typical champion.

I don't want to be a Negative Nelly but I see combination of Irving, Horford, Davis and Hayward as only good on defensive end so I think if Celtics go with Irving and Davis long term, Hayward or Kyrie should be replaced with more of a low usage ELITE 3 and D player. Celtics if they keep Smart can only expect him to do so much on the defensive end.

Irving and Hayward I think would fit better together if the center/PF was KG or Duncan instead of Davis. I think Celtics fans overrate Davis on defense based upon rebounds/blocks. Not saying he is anything but very good defensively but players like KG/Duncan controlled the paint better. Davis is better than Duncan on the offensive end, however.

And to be fair to Davis even if he was Duncan or KG on defense in owning the paint, tough to stop a Curry 3 or Klay 3.

I realize this was more of a transition year for whatever reasons but Ainge has to do a better job next year in roster construction.

Irving/Durant and a bunch of 3 and D players/defenders may work. I realize it must be hard to juggle so many things since I suspect Ainge in order to sign players like Horford/Hayward make them promises and in order to facilitate a trade for Irving, they probably make him some promises.

[robdog_5]

I either want Kyrie with AD. Or no Kyrie and maybe no AD. Although I think that could work in a different way.

[Wes-J]

Would like to see more discussion on scenarios that would not include AD or Kyrie.

How would we build a viable contender around Hayward/JB/Tatum/Horford?

What are all the options at PG not named Rozier?

What kind of scoring punch can we add off the bench? Resign Mook??

Who if any plug and play players with experience can we nab from the draft?

[zoyathedestroya]

Would like to see more discussion on scenarios that would not include AD or Kyrie.

How would we build a viable contender around Hayward/JB/Tatum/Horford?

What are all the options at PG not named Rozier?

What kind of scoring punch can we add off the bench? Resign Mook??

Who if any plug and play players with experience can we nab from the draft?

Hayward would have to take on the challenge of primary ballhandler/playmaker (like in Utah) with Brown and Tatum as the top 2 scorers. All three have to be more consistent on defense/rebounding. Horford can't fall off a cliff esp. defensively. We need another big that can protect the rim and clean the boards.

Smart and Beverley would be my top two options. Ideally, ball shouldn't be dominated by one or two guys when it constantly moves. Just need someone to initiate offense, call out plays. But knowing where to be and what your options are within the offense will take a lot more work the entire year than just throwing it to someone and expecting them to create on iso.

Add shooters that can spread the floor. And guys who can make quick decisions with the ball.

Here's a thread for non-AD/KD/Kyrie scenarios: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1835739

[Afam]

Damn the Lakers.

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