Winner Winner Chicken Nugget... Brunch! Victory Cigar vs DEN 3/2

[ConstableGeneva]

The Celtics got a total of 3 points from Tatum, Brown, and Porzingis in the 4th quarter and won the quarter.

[31to6]

As everyone has said, good win down 2 starters, but I still found parts of it a bit distressing.

Our unwillingness to run genuine offensive sets every time down the court is pretty infuriating. I appreciate it can't/won't happen on every possession, but we get into this funk in way too many games where we devolve into ISO basketball and making contested jumpers / 3's that aren't sustainable in the long-run. Especially when we've got lineups out there that are mostly bench players and one of our stars.

Why don't we run more action for White/ Hauser/ PP specifically? Pin down screens / hammer action to get our 40% shooters open looks as the first option in the half-court. They don't have to automatically fire away either, get the defense moving and keep the ball moving to find the 2nd or 3rd shot in the sequence. Get significantly more movement out there and let guys relocate to spots on the floor where defenses are more likely to lose them in the mix than standing stock still waiting for a kick-out.

I'm fine with Tatum/Brown pick and rolls as a primary function, but at least get into them immediately. They're waiting until half the shot clock has run down before they start the action and if it doesn't work they're left with no time to have a 2nd attempt at creating something. Start it early, move the ball if it doesn't work, relocate and the ball will either find it's way back to you for the same shot you would have taken anyway or ideally find someone else with a better look.

It just feels lazy. Which I know is rich coming from a guy on their couch but it's a fundamental principle of basketball that movement on offense creates opportunities. Focus gets paid too much on the stars, other guys get lost or caught up in the chop and can't stay with their man. Defenders are more likely to foul when they're chasing as well. Start the action earlier, keep the movement constant and it'll inevitably yield results. I appreciate it's easier said than done and there's an element of consideration towards not gassing out which creates its own problems, but it feels like there is just SO much of this ISO play or sets where Tatum in particular is just waiting at the logo for the ball to come back to him as we run a half-hearted action on the wing, that there is no excuse to not see more of an alternative even if it can't be literally every possession.

It's incredibly evident when we've go Tatum/Brown out there with 3-4 bench guys, but it's also the very same problem we run into with the starters when things get tough and the monkey that's been on our back for years (my turn/your turn ISO) starts rearing its head again. And this is on Joe to do something about (and I love Joe for the record). Even on nights when we don't have guys we can't devolve into ISO heavy basketball because it creates the bad habits we fall back on when times get tough in games that do matter.

/end rant

maybe the top post of this season imo
please get it on Joe's desk ASAP!

[playa-hater]

As everyone has said, good win down 2 starters, but I still found parts of it a bit distressing.

Our unwillingness to run genuine offensive sets every time down the court is pretty infuriating. I appreciate it can't/won't happen on every possession, but we get into this funk in way too many games where we devolve into ISO basketball and making contested jumpers / 3's that aren't sustainable in the long-run. Especially when we've got lineups out there that are mostly bench players and one of our stars.

Why don't we run more action for White/ Hauser/ PP specifically? Pin down screens / hammer action to get our 40% shooters open looks as the first option in the half-court. They don't have to automatically fire away either, get the defense moving and keep the ball moving to find the 2nd or 3rd shot in the sequence. Get significantly more movement out there and let guys relocate to spots on the floor where defenses are more likely to lose them in the mix than standing stock still waiting for a kick-out.

I'm fine with Tatum/Brown pick and rolls as a primary function, but at least get into them immediately. They're waiting until half the shot clock has run down before they start the action and if it doesn't work they're left with no time to have a 2nd attempt at creating something. Start it early, move the ball if it doesn't work, relocate and the ball will either find it's way back to you for the same shot you would have taken anyway or ideally find someone else with a better look.

It just feels lazy. Which I know is rich coming from a guy on their couch but it's a fundamental principle of basketball that movement on offense creates opportunities. Focus gets paid too much on the stars, other guys get lost or caught up in the chop and can't stay with their man. Defenders are more likely to foul when they're chasing as well. Start the action earlier, keep the movement constant and it'll inevitably yield results. I appreciate it's easier said than done and there's an element of consideration towards not gassing out which creates its own problems, but it feels like there is just SO much of this ISO play or sets where Tatum in particular is just waiting at the logo for the ball to come back to him as we run a half-hearted action on the wing, that there is no excuse to not see more of an alternative even if it can't be literally every possession.

It's incredibly evident when we've go Tatum/Brown out there with 3-4 bench guys, but it's also the very same problem we run into with the starters when things get tough and the monkey that's been on our back for years (my turn/your turn ISO) starts rearing its head again. And this is on Joe to do something about (and I love Joe for the record). Even on nights when we don't have guys we can't devolve into ISO heavy basketball because it creates the bad habits we fall back on when times get tough in games that do matter.

/end rant

maybe the top post of this season imo
please get it on Joe's desk ASAP!

Also think this is a great post and something I harp about all season. And you are Right again. This is on Joe and only he can fix it. If he doesn't demand accountability to play the right way, who will?

[redslastlaugh]

I agree with what you’re saying. And I think Joes weakness is moving his X’s and O’s to generate good looks, keep the defense off balance and max out each individual players strengths.

My best guess is that Joe believes the best result will come if you space the floor, with a shooter in each corner and run a high screen action that will result in ballhandler getting an open 3PTA or getting downhill creating opportunities to kick out to stationary shooters if defense helps on the drive.

It’s a numbers game though so it takes a lot of reps for this offense to pay off. So why run a play or a different action, your framework offense works best with a large sample of possessions.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think it’s why Joe doesn’t like calling timeouts, why use a timeout to just run the same action on the other side. But whatever the reason, the system is very basic and predictable and it’s premised on Joes belief that shooting the most threes is the most important stat on offense. And the team doesn’t seem to put any emphasis on running plays of any type at all.

As everyone has said, good win down 2 starters, but I still found parts of it a bit distressing.

Our unwillingness to run genuine offensive sets every time down the court is pretty infuriating. I appreciate it can't/won't happen on every possession, but we get into this funk in way too many games where we devolve into ISO basketball and making contested jumpers / 3's that aren't sustainable in the long-run. Especially when we've got lineups out there that are mostly bench players and one of our stars.

Why don't we run more action for White/ Hauser/ PP specifically? Pin down screens / hammer action to get our 40% shooters open looks as the first option in the half-court. They don't have to automatically fire away either, get the defense moving and keep the ball moving to find the 2nd or 3rd shot in the sequence. Get significantly more movement out there and let guys relocate to spots on the floor where defenses are more likely to lose them in the mix than standing stock still waiting for a kick-out.

maybe the top post of this season imo
please get it on Joe's desk ASAP!

Also think this is a great post and something I harp about all season. And you are Right again. This is on Joe and only he can fix it. If he doesn't demand accountability to play the right way, who will?

[31to6]

As everyone has said, good win down 2 starters, but I still found parts of it a bit distressing.

Our unwillingness to run genuine offensive sets every time down the court is pretty infuriating. I appreciate it can't/won't happen on every possession, but we get into this funk in way too many games where we devolve into ISO basketball and making contested jumpers / 3's that aren't sustainable in the long-run. Especially when we've got lineups out there that are mostly bench players and one of our stars.

Why don't we run more action for White/ Hauser/ PP specifically? Pin down screens / hammer action to get our 40% shooters open looks as the first option in the half-court. They don't have to automatically fire away either, get the defense moving and keep the ball moving to find the 2nd or 3rd shot in the sequence. Get significantly more movement out there and let guys relocate to spots on the floor where defenses are more likely to lose them in the mix than standing stock still waiting for a kick-out.

I'm fine with Tatum/Brown pick and rolls as a primary function, but at least get into them immediately. They're waiting until half the shot clock has run down before they start the action and if it doesn't work they're left with no time to have a 2nd attempt at creating something. Start it early, move the ball if it doesn't work, relocate and the ball will either find it's way back to you for the same shot you would have taken anyway or ideally find someone else with a better look.

It just feels lazy. Which I know is rich coming from a guy on their couch but it's a fundamental principle of basketball that movement on offense creates opportunities. Focus gets paid too much on the stars, other guys get lost or caught up in the chop and can't stay with their man. Defenders are more likely to foul when they're chasing as well. Start the action earlier, keep the movement constant and it'll inevitably yield results. I appreciate it's easier said than done and there's an element of consideration towards not gassing out which creates its own problems, but it feels like there is just SO much of this ISO play or sets where Tatum in particular is just waiting at the logo for the ball to come back to him as we run a half-hearted action on the wing, that there is no excuse to not see more of an alternative even if it can't be literally every possession.

It's incredibly evident when we've go Tatum/Brown out there with 3-4 bench guys, but it's also the very same problem we run into with the starters when things get tough and the monkey that's been on our back for years (my turn/your turn ISO) starts rearing its head again. And this is on Joe to do something about (and I love Joe for the record). Even on nights when we don't have guys we can't devolve into ISO heavy basketball because it creates the bad habits we fall back on when times get tough in games that do matter.

/end rant

maybe the top post of this season imo
please get it on Joe's desk ASAP!

Also think this is a great post and something I harp about all season. And you are Right again. This is on Joe and only he can fix it. If he doesn't demand accountability to play the right way, who will?

Maybe Cassell, maybe Jrue, maybe Al, maybe Brad, to name four possibilities. Maybe KG (loves the game, loves Boston), maybe Pierce (worked out with JT two summers ago) to name two more. I remember Jaylen working out with Pistons' Isaih Thomas back in the day (not sure if he's still in touch) and also TMac at least once.

Not likely Scal, and there was a time when RIP Tommy or maybe even Mike (speculating here) would say something privately or on the air.

Hondo, Satch, William Felton used to be around now and then -- I'm dating myself -- different era:)

[cl2117]

I agree with what you’re saying. And I think Joes weakness is moving his X’s and O’s to generate good looks, keep the defense off balance and max out each individual players strengths.

My best guess is that Joe believes the best result will come if you space the floor, with a shooter in each corner and run a high screen action that will result in ballhandler getting an open 3PTA or getting downhill creating opportunities to kick out to stationary shooters if defense helps on the drive.

It’s a numbers game though so it takes a lot of reps for this offense to pay off. So why run a play or a different action, your framework offense works best with a large sample of possessions.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think it’s why Joe doesn’t like calling timeouts, why use a timeout to just run the same action on the other side. But whatever the reason, the system is very basic and predictable and it’s premised on Joes belief that shooting the most threes is the most important stat on offense. And the team doesn’t seem to put any emphasis on running plays of any type at all.

I agree that's Joe's philosophy and it obviously works (thanks for Banner 18) but I still think there is some laziness in the approach from the players and our inability to mix things up when it's not working (or just to keep teams on their toes) seems to help teams claw back in games they shouldn't.

Like I said I'm fine with a JT/JB pick and roll being the primary function of the offense but they need to make it a priority to get into that as quickly as possible in the shot clock to still leave room for things to go wrong. If you get the ball up the court and immediately run the P&R you end up with a lot more options if the defense plays it right and shuts it down. For example Tatum can drive/kick/relocate and with an away side screen he could be getting the ball back for another look with just two swing passes from the guy he kicks to in the corner on the other side. If we're down to 5 seconds or below we end up handcuffed into needing him to save us with a hero shot instead of having options.

Or alternatively if we get the guards bringing the ball up, we can run some action to one side to try and get a shooter open right out of the gate while still screening away side to bring Tatum/JB towards to the top of the key to get into that P&R anyway (now with the defense having to move to keep up. We've got multiple guys who are +40%, I'd honestly take an open look from one of them vs. a step back 3 from Tatum at 35%. They don't need to be mutually exclusive, so I like the idea of having option A and option B within the same possession rather than committing to just one thing.

You're still getting the volume of high percentage plays but at the same time you're getting more options so that when good defenses clamp down (like OKC and CLE will) you don't have to settle right away.

I know Joe has forgotten more basketball knowledge than I will ever have but if an idiot like me can spot that we play our best offensively when the players and the ball moves constantly and we stagnate most when we're standing still and not making the most of the shot clock, there's got to be something that can be done.

[playa-hater]

maybe the top post of this season imo
please get it on Joe's desk ASAP!

Also think this is a great post and something I harp about all season. And you are Right again. This is on Joe and only he can fix it. If he doesn't demand accountability to play the right way, who will?

Maybe Cassell, maybe Jrue, maybe Al, maybe Brad, to name four possibilities. Maybe KG (loves the game, loves Boston), maybe Pierce (worked out with JT two summers ago) to name two more. I remember Jaylen working out with Pistons' Isaih Thomas back in the day (not sure if he's still in touch) and also TMac at least once.

Not likely Scal, and there was a time when RIP Tommy or maybe even Mike (speculating here) would say something privately or on the air.

Hondo, Satch, William Felton used to be around now and then -- I'm dating myself -- different era:)

I like Cassell and am looking forward to him becoming a HC one day. Think he can be a good one.

[playa-hater]

I agree with what you’re saying. And I think Joes weakness is moving his X’s and O’s to generate good looks, keep the defense off balance and max out each individual players strengths.

My best guess is that Joe believes the best result will come if you space the floor, with a shooter in each corner and run a high screen action that will result in ballhandler getting an open 3PTA or getting downhill creating opportunities to kick out to stationary shooters if defense helps on the drive.

It’s a numbers game though so it takes a lot of reps for this offense to pay off. So why run a play or a different action, your framework offense works best with a large sample of possessions.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think it’s why Joe doesn’t like calling timeouts, why use a timeout to just run the same action on the other side. But whatever the reason, the system is very basic and predictable and it’s premised on Joes belief that shooting the most threes is the most important stat on offense. And the team doesn’t seem to put any emphasis on running plays of any type at all.

I agree that's Joe's philosophy and it obviously works (thanks for Banner 18) but I still think there is some laziness in the approach from the players and our inability to mix things up when it's not working (or just to keep teams on their toes) seems to help teams claw back in games they shouldn't.

Like I said I'm fine with a JT/JB pick and roll being the primary function of the offense but they need to make it a priority to get into that as quickly as possible in the shot clock to still leave room for things to go wrong. If you get the ball up the court and immediately run the P&R you end up with a lot more options if the defense plays it right and shuts it down. For example Tatum can drive/kick/relocate and with an away side screen he could be getting the ball back for another look with just two swing passes from the guy he kicks to in the corner on the other side. If we're down to 5 seconds or below we end up handcuffed into needing him to save us with a hero shot instead of having options.

Or alternatively if we get the guards bringing the ball up, we can run some action to one side to try and get a shooter open right out of the gate while still screening away side to bring Tatum/JB towards to the top of the key to get into that P&R anyway (now with the defense having to move to keep up. We've got multiple guys who are +40%, I'd honestly take an open look from one of them vs. a step back 3 from Tatum at 35%. They don't need to be mutually exclusive, so I like the idea of having option A and option B within the same possession rather than committing to just one thing.

You're still getting the volume of high percentage plays but at the same time you're getting more options so that when good defenses clamp down (like OKC and CLE will) you don't have to settle right away.

I know Joe has forgotten more basketball knowledge than I will ever have but if an idiot like me can spot that we play our best offensively when the players and the ball moves constantly and we stagnate most when we're standing still and not making the most of the shot clock, there's got to be something that can be done.

Another excellent post. However, I do not believe Joe has "forgotten" anything concerning BB. I think he knows the things you described are the "better way". I just think he doesn't have the courage or respect to demand it from his players. Namely the Jays. But I am hoping come playoffs the players will be more receptive to playing the "better way" and infusing more off the ball movements etc..It certainly is frustrating to see the "lazy approach" going on this regular season and hope bad habits can be broken when it matters most.

Also reading your posts, I can see you are no "Idiot", and you have well thought out commentary. Posts like these make me think that some of us on here actually do know more than some of the so called "Pros". Nico Harrison immediately comes to mind.

[redslastlaugh]

Another excellent post. However, I do not believe Joe has "forgotten" anything concerning BB. I think he knows the things you described are the "better way". I just think he doesn't have the courage or respect to demand it from his players. Namely the Jays. But I am hoping come playoffs the players will be more receptive to playing the "better way" and infusing more off the ball movements etc..It certainly is frustrating to see the "lazy approach" going on this regular season and hope bad habits can be broken when it matters most.

Also reading your posts, I can see you are no "Idiot", and you have well thought out commentary. Posts like these make me think that some of us on here actually do know more than some of the so called "Pros". Nico Harrison immediately comes to mind.

Yea, great post.

Sure we’re hardcore basketball fans and not professionals. We don’t have the million dollar analytics staff and assistant coaches/consultants etc but also sometimes people are insulated in their own bubble and get stuck in a feedback loop.

Before Enron went bankrupt and the stock crashed to $0 all the smartest Wall Street analysts were telling their clients BUY! So experts get things wrong too.

[playa-hater]

Another excellent post. However, I do not believe Joe has "forgotten" anything concerning BB. I think he knows the things you described are the "better way". I just think he doesn't have the courage or respect to demand it from his players. Namely the Jays. But I am hoping come playoffs the players will be more receptive to playing the "better way" and infusing more off the ball movements etc..It certainly is frustrating to see the "lazy approach" going on this regular season and hope bad habits can be broken when it matters most.

Also reading your posts, I can see you are no "Idiot", and you have well thought out commentary. Posts like these make me think that some of us on here actually do know more than some of the so called "Pros". Nico Harrison immediately comes to mind.

Yea, great post.

Sure we’re hardcore basketball fans and not professionals. We don’t have the million dollar analytics staff and assistant coaches/consultants etc but also sometimes people are insulated in their own bubble and get stuck in a feedback loop.

Before Enron went bankrupt and the stock crashed to $0 all the smartest Wall Street analysts were telling their clients BUY! So experts get things wrong too.

Good point.but wish you didn't bring up stocks right now.