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Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#401 » by sully00 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:39 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
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Ernest wrote:Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.


Judas Shuttlesworth left for LESS MONEY. Big difference.


Was a lot of spin going on with that. Same as when TA left. Didn't we lowball with a backup role in mind, then "try" to outbid other suitors at the 11th hour?


We also tried to trade Ray on a constant basis.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#402 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:39 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:That's definitely not what is happening here. I'm a big Marcus here guy since forever ago. What I am saying here is that (a) Marcus been doing it for years now, (b) that a bunch of stat-biased people here hated on him and his supporters super, super hard for multiple seasons, (c) the truth came out in the wash on that, (d) those same folks are trying to not only duck that L they clearly earned by pointing to scoring efficiency stats that are insignificant relative to his scoring usage, and that (e) despite being asked to do too much the season before last due to us missing two All-Stars, he actually had a significantly bigger contribution to a a team that was significantly more successful.

Tell me what part of that you are confused about, and I will be happy to educate you. ;-)


The part where his contribution was significantly bigger. What did he do two seasons ago that he didn't do (as much of) last season, to an extent that made him a significantly greater contributor despite inferior scoring efficiency and inferior health?


Win more games by sheer force of will.


Telekinesis?

It all comes down to a combination of:

-- Visible basketball plays
-- Invisible improvement to your team's basketball plays and/or damage to the opposition's (via verbal call-outs, positioning, intimidation, whatever)

I find it remarkable that you simultaneously seem to:
-- Assert this is all obvious
-- Find it extremely hard to articulate substantively what you believe happens

By the way: For the most part, I agree with you about Smart. But I think you're out of line in the extraordinarily obnoxious attitude you take about the subject and most especially in your insistence on so frequently sharing your poison with the forum.

We may also have a substantive disagreement as to the importance of actually making one's shots.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#403 » by Captain_Caveman » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:41 pm

Darth Celtic wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:

whats your take on giving brown an extension at his max?


Do what we did with Smart. Let him hit the market with the threat to match any offer sheet. Try to drive down his market value that way.

If you trade him, smart and filler for Beal with maybe the Bucks pick, sure. You don't dump him for another pick or prospect. You don't know what he is yet, or what he will be offered. Not a lot of cap space next year as teams are saving it for 2021 mass market again. Who offers him this max? Worst thing is you match it, wait a year, then trade it for a Max you feel is better and the griz top 3 pick.

There was no reason to dump rozier/smart/ or JB early. They are not unrestricted free agents and max for him is only like 27m.

Smart got us Smart on a great contract. Rozier got us a 2nd round pick cheap insurance in case we didn't get Kemba/Kyrie. JB is our Hayward still Sucks insurance.


Right, but part of me twitched when I thought of the defense on this team:

Kemba/Edwards/Wanamaker
Beal/Langford
Hayward/Semi
Tatum/Williams/Theis
Kanter/RWill/Poirier
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#404 » by SmartWentCrazy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:44 pm

Looking like Tatum should make team USA now that Harden also pulled out. Kinda love that, just need him to recruit the hell outta Beal now.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#405 » by Slartibartfast » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:45 pm

Tatum looks disturbingly like Tayshaun Prince in those pics.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#406 » by Slartibartfast » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:46 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:Looking like Tatum should make team USA now that Harden also pulled out. Kinda love that, just need him to recruit the hell outta Beal now.


Aren't there any big men he could recruit?
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#407 » by Darth Celtic » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:47 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Tatum looks disturbingly like Tayshaun Prince in those pics.

Lift some weight bro. Go to Al's old locker and break out his left over chocolate milk. Something.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#408 » by Darth Celtic » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:47 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:Looking like Tatum should make team USA now that Harden also pulled out. Kinda love that, just need him to recruit the hell outta Beal now.


Aren't there any big men he could recruit?

None that are breaking lose anytime soon.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#409 » by sully00 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:50 pm

djFan71 wrote:
sully00 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
Smart took a greater than ever % of his shots from the 3 last year, at 61% (after being in the 40's the three previous seasons). He also had his highest % year from the 3 in shooting, as well as his highest % of 3's being corner 3's. He also shot his lowest or tied-lowest percent of his shots in his career from each of the mid-range distances (3-10, 10-16, 16-<3). And yes, he finished better at the basket. It really was a combination of shooting and shot selection. Oh, and also lower usage, as he was the lowest on that in his career last year as well.

Looking at Smart's shooting breakdown I think what we saw last year was first of all 80 games, the dude was healthy, he shot less off the dribble and more catch and shoot. This also at least to my minds eye cut down on the ill advised early in the shot clock 3 (he also had no half court heaves). I also think getting the contract done really helped his confidence and just let him play a little more free.

He really isn't all that far off the Chauncey Billups development path I have always hoped for him. Billups turned the corner at 24 years old and in his 4th season. He came into the league a year older than Smart and had more injury issues.

It will be fascinating to see how CBS handles the line up decisions and their impact. Coming off of the heels of last season's chemistry failure this year is going to be even more muddy. The team essentially has two starters in Walker and Tatum, and then you have 3 guys in Brown, Hayward, and Smart who are NBA starters and only one of them may be able to be in the starting line up unless they can combine with Tatum to rebound well enough to get by with him at the PF spot. Add to that you have 3 rookies in Langford, Williams, and Edwards who are locked and loaded offensively which is great but they have also been primary options since the minute the stepped on the floor.

What do you guys make of the Kemba signing in relation to Smart? To me it seems a pretty big no confidence vote to Smart as a starting PG. There's just literally no way he gets significant minutes running the team with the other starters to complete that Billups progression anymore. The FO has either resigned themselves to Smart always being just the ultimate glue guy/bench contributor, or pushed him to starting SG to make up for a short/defensively deficient scoring PG now? I really wanted to see a Smart/Brown/Tatum starting lineup and let all of them grow their playmaking skills and see what we had. Obviously, there's time with Kemba not out there, but it's not the same thing as handing him the ball and making him the starting 1.


I just think that would have gone really badly. This team needs a legit #1 option right now Smart just got to the point of not hurting you on offense by taking a step back. If Hayward was a full go that is one thing but too many question marks for that approach. Billups turned the corner as Brandon's backup and then was paired with Rip Hamilton.

I think Smart certainly can be a starter in the league and maybe a PG in the right line up but I think he will always need a real stud next to him for the offense to flow.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#410 » by Bleeding Green » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:50 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Bleeding Green wrote:Wins aren't a statistically provable event.


Not sure if I have already said this nine times, but I think your point is far too focused on stats to begin with.

Which is a fundamentally-flawed way to gauge Smart's worth as a player.

And statistically insignificant given his low shot attempts.

Why? A stat-based approach would tell you that Marcus Smart has always been a good, positive player and that this last year he improved significantly as a result of no longer being the least efficient scorer in the NBA. But yeah, stats are bad. Remove the scoreboard and just tell me who won at the end of the game.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#411 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:53 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Darth Celtic wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Do what we did with Smart. Let him hit the market with the threat to match any offer sheet. Try to drive down his market value that way.

If you trade him, smart and filler for Beal with maybe the Bucks pick, sure. You don't dump him for another pick or prospect. You don't know what he is yet, or what he will be offered. Not a lot of cap space next year as teams are saving it for 2021 mass market again. Who offers him this max? Worst thing is you match it, wait a year, then trade it for a Max you feel is better and the griz top 3 pick.

There was no reason to dump rozier/smart/ or JB early. They are not unrestricted free agents and max for him is only like 27m.

Smart got us Smart on a great contract. Rozier got us a 2nd round pick cheap insurance in case we didn't get Kemba/Kyrie. JB is our Hayward still Sucks insurance.


Right, but part of me twitched when I thought of the defense on this team:

Kemba/Edwards/Wanamaker
Beal/Langford
Hayward/Semi
Tatum/Williams/Theis
Kanter/RWill/Poirier


I don't see anyone on that team that I would trust with my life walking down a dark alley late at night.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#412 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:53 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Ernest wrote:Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.


Judas Shuttlesworth left for LESS MONEY. Big difference.


Was a lot of spin going on with that. Same as when TA left. Didn't we lowball with a backup role in mind, then "try" to outbid other suitors at the 11th hour?


I'm not sure now, to be honest. But our reported offer was quite low itself; Miami's was even lower because they were limited to an exception.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#413 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:54 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Darth Celtic wrote:If you trade him, smart and filler for Beal with maybe the Bucks pick, sure. You don't dump him for another pick or prospect. You don't know what he is yet, or what he will be offered. Not a lot of cap space next year as teams are saving it for 2021 mass market again. Who offers him this max? Worst thing is you match it, wait a year, then trade it for a Max you feel is better and the griz top 3 pick.

There was no reason to dump rozier/smart/ or JB early. They are not unrestricted free agents and max for him is only like 27m.

Smart got us Smart on a great contract. Rozier got us a 2nd round pick cheap insurance in case we didn't get Kemba/Kyrie. JB is our Hayward still Sucks insurance.


Right, but part of me twitched when I thought of the defense on this team:

Kemba/Edwards/Wanamaker
Beal/Langford
Hayward/Semi
Tatum/Williams/Theis
Kanter/RWill/Poirier


I don't see anyone on that team that I would trust with my life walking down a dark alley late at night.


Edwards? Semi? Grant Williams? Poirier?
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#414 » by Darth Celtic » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:00 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Darth Celtic wrote:If you trade him, smart and filler for Beal with maybe the Bucks pick, sure. You don't dump him for another pick or prospect. You don't know what he is yet, or what he will be offered. Not a lot of cap space next year as teams are saving it for 2021 mass market again. Who offers him this max? Worst thing is you match it, wait a year, then trade it for a Max you feel is better and the griz top 3 pick.

There was no reason to dump rozier/smart/ or JB early. They are not unrestricted free agents and max for him is only like 27m.

Smart got us Smart on a great contract. Rozier got us a 2nd round pick cheap insurance in case we didn't get Kemba/Kyrie. JB is our Hayward still Sucks insurance.


Right, but part of me twitched when I thought of the defense on this team:

Kemba/Edwards/Wanamaker
Beal/Langford
Hayward/Semi
Tatum/Williams/Theis
Kanter/RWill/Poirier


I don't see anyone on that team that I would trust with my life walking down a dark alley late at night.

Kanter. He is a bully and gets into it on the court all the time. He's no smart, and does most of it rebounding and on offense, but he is in the Smart mold. He'd protect our guards when they were shoved.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#415 » by MagicBagley18 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:03 pm

Darth Celtic wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:

whats your take on giving brown an extension at his max?


Do what we did with Smart. Let him hit the market with the threat to match any offer sheet. Try to drive down his market value that way.

If you trade him, smart and filler for Beal with maybe the Bucks pick, sure. You don't dump him for another pick or prospect. You don't know what he is yet, or what he will be offered. Not a lot of cap space next year as teams are saving it for 2021 mass market again. Who offers him this max? Worst thing is you match it, wait a year, then trade it for a Max you feel is better and the griz top 3 pick.

There was no reason to dump rozier/smart/ or JB early. They are not unrestricted free agents and max for him is only like 27m.

Smart got us Smart on a great contract. Rozier got us a 2nd round pick cheap insurance in case we didn't get Kemba/Kyrie. JB is our Hayward still Sucks insurance.


It’s 29 according to zoya and that’s not exactly cheap....I agree trade him for an all star who fits if u can. I’d like Beal. Don’t think we can get him.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#416 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:05 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Right, but part of me twitched when I thought of the defense on this team:

Kemba/Edwards/Wanamaker
Beal/Langford
Hayward/Semi
Tatum/Williams/Theis
Kanter/RWill/Poirier


I don't see anyone on that team that I would trust with my life walking down a dark alley late at night.


Edwards? Semi? Grant Williams? Poirier?


Edwards has a little bit of dog in him. Semi? Haven't seen him mix it up yet. Grant Williams looks too nice. Poirier looks tough, but we shall see.

Overall though, I just don't see any guys on that team that can impose their will and have their intensity rub off on the rest of the team on the defensive end.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#417 » by Captain_Caveman » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:08 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
The part where his contribution was significantly bigger. What did he do two seasons ago that he didn't do (as much of) last season, to an extent that made him a significantly greater contributor despite inferior scoring efficiency and inferior health?


Win more games by sheer force of will.


Telekinesis?

It all comes down to a combination of:

-- Visible basketball plays
-- Invisible improvement to your team's basketball plays and/or damage to the opposition's (via verbal call-outs, positioning, intimidation, whatever)

I find it remarkable that you simultaneously seem to:
-- Assert this is all obvious
-- Find it extremely hard to articulate substantively what you believe happens

By the way: For the most part, I agree with you about Smart. But I think you're out of line in the extraordinarily obnoxious attitude you take about the subject and most especially in your insistence on so frequently sharing your poison with the forum.

We may also have a substantive disagreement as to the importance of actually making one's shots.


Well, there's an easy way to never have these conversations. Don't give me years of **** for wanting to tank or for thinking Smart is a good role player while you pimp IT as a franchise player. Since you never did that, was never really talking to you on this.

As to what we are talking about, I have already laid out why Smart made a greater contribution two years ago than he did last year and didn't make some huge leap as a player. Feel like that is self-evident to the point where you should be trying to explain what it is not the case, rather than asking me to say why it is.

I am down for advanced stats arguments or any other nerd argument that you can imagine. But the truth of it with Smart is that not only are we talking about a largely insignificant improvement in shooting percentages for a guy who shoots 7 times a game, the improvement itself was mostly attributable to him getting to play on a talented starting unit for the first time in his career. Rather than having to force the issue on undermanned teams with untalented, scoring-deficient benches, he got to pick and choose far easier scoring opportunities as a 4th or 5th option, playing alongside a backcourt mate who was often doubled and trapped to the point where Smart was left WIDE OPEN.

You are saying that he shot better, and I am saying, "Yeah, no ****."

The truly scary part? Despite that improvement in shooting percentages, the team was actually better and his impact more substantial when he had to force things, because he was in a bigger role with more of an imprint on the team and their success.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#418 » by MagicBagley18 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:08 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Darth Celtic wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Do what we did with Smart. Let him hit the market with the threat to match any offer sheet. Try to drive down his market value that way.

If you trade him, smart and filler for Beal with maybe the Bucks pick, sure. You don't dump him for another pick or prospect. You don't know what he is yet, or what he will be offered. Not a lot of cap space next year as teams are saving it for 2021 mass market again. Who offers him this max? Worst thing is you match it, wait a year, then trade it for a Max you feel is better and the griz top 3 pick.

There was no reason to dump rozier/smart/ or JB early. They are not unrestricted free agents and max for him is only like 27m.

Smart got us Smart on a great contract. Rozier got us a 2nd round pick cheap insurance in case we didn't get Kemba/Kyrie. JB is our Hayward still Sucks insurance.


Right, but part of me twitched when I thought of the defense on this team:

Kemba/Edwards/Wanamaker
Beal/Langford
Hayward/Semi
Tatum/Williams/Theis
Kanter/RWill/Poirier


The defense is a real issue...can’t argue that. I think it would be something that takes an offseason to add depth to that unit and then we would have a really good chance. Need dirt dogs and ham and eggers to bring that heart and hustle.

I do think tho if beal is open to long term here, we need to consider him. Just turned 26 just entering his prime and isn’t a headcase and is kind of the B level star we can get ala Hayward.

That team would put up 110 but may give up 115 but they’d be offensive napalm and especially if haywards healthy. We also keep Hayward and his expiring and still have Tatum to dangle down the road if we find something that is worth losing him and quite frankly as fluid as the nba is, I don’t see any big game changers outside of KAT shaking loose in 24 months and he’s iffy and also very divisive opinions on him
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#419 » by MagicBagley18 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:10 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Darth Celtic wrote:If you trade him, smart and filler for Beal with maybe the Bucks pick, sure. You don't dump him for another pick or prospect. You don't know what he is yet, or what he will be offered. Not a lot of cap space next year as teams are saving it for 2021 mass market again. Who offers him this max? Worst thing is you match it, wait a year, then trade it for a Max you feel is better and the griz top 3 pick.

There was no reason to dump rozier/smart/ or JB early. They are not unrestricted free agents and max for him is only like 27m.

Smart got us Smart on a great contract. Rozier got us a 2nd round pick cheap insurance in case we didn't get Kemba/Kyrie. JB is our Hayward still Sucks insurance.


Right, but part of me twitched when I thought of the defense on this team:

Kemba/Edwards/Wanamaker
Beal/Langford
Hayward/Semi
Tatum/Williams/Theis
Kanter/RWill/Poirier


I don't see anyone on that team that I would trust with my life walking down a dark alley late at night.


Get the “dark alley guys” after acquiring the all stars...haha but I agree
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#420 » by Slartibartfast » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:11 pm

sully00 wrote:
djFan71 wrote:
sully00 wrote:Looking at Smart's shooting breakdown I think what we saw last year was first of all 80 games, the dude was healthy, he shot less off the dribble and more catch and shoot. This also at least to my minds eye cut down on the ill advised early in the shot clock 3 (he also had no half court heaves). I also think getting the contract done really helped his confidence and just let him play a little more free.

He really isn't all that far off the Chauncey Billups development path I have always hoped for him. Billups turned the corner at 24 years old and in his 4th season. He came into the league a year older than Smart and had more injury issues.

It will be fascinating to see how CBS handles the line up decisions and their impact. Coming off of the heels of last season's chemistry failure this year is going to be even more muddy. The team essentially has two starters in Walker and Tatum, and then you have 3 guys in Brown, Hayward, and Smart who are NBA starters and only one of them may be able to be in the starting line up unless they can combine with Tatum to rebound well enough to get by with him at the PF spot. Add to that you have 3 rookies in Langford, Williams, and Edwards who are locked and loaded offensively which is great but they have also been primary options since the minute the stepped on the floor.

What do you guys make of the Kemba signing in relation to Smart? To me it seems a pretty big no confidence vote to Smart as a starting PG. There's just literally no way he gets significant minutes running the team with the other starters to complete that Billups progression anymore. The FO has either resigned themselves to Smart always being just the ultimate glue guy/bench contributor, or pushed him to starting SG to make up for a short/defensively deficient scoring PG now? I really wanted to see a Smart/Brown/Tatum starting lineup and let all of them grow their playmaking skills and see what we had. Obviously, there's time with Kemba not out there, but it's not the same thing as handing him the ball and making him the starting 1.


I just think that would have gone really badly. This team needs a legit #1 option right now Smart just got to the point of not hurting you on offense by taking a step back. If Hayward was a full go that is one thing but too many question marks for that approach. Billups turned the corner as Brandon's backup and then was paired with Rip Hamilton.

I think Smart certainly can be a starter in the league and maybe a PG in the right line up but I think he will always need a real stud next to him for the offense to flow.


Chauncey's first step and jumper were always better than Smart's. He could lull you to sleep and then go right by you. Smart doesn't have the same gravity on the perimeter.

I think he's more like Jeremy Lin offensively as a primary point of attack - a big guard who can get you on his hip and ride you into the paint. Problem is Marcus doesn't have great touch for the kind of running contested below-the-rim finishes that style requires.

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