Jackie M - Rondo wants out?

[Tenbomber]

If Rondo indeed wants to remain a Celtic and wants this to be "his team", and wants us all to love and respect him, then he should be willing to sign a long term, team friendly contract. Then, perhaps, there would be money left in the till to surround him with some decent talent.....

To date, Rondo has shown no inclination to do this...

If all he wants is to be paid the Max, he has to expect the criticism that he is getting from some Celtic fans...

So, again I will say this:

Sign on the dotted line Rajon.....

[SMTBSI]

If Rondo indeed wants to remain a Celtic and wants this to be "his team", and wants us all to love and respect him, then he should be willing to sign a long term, team friendly contract. Then, perhaps, there would be money left in the till to surround him with some decent talent.....

To date, Rondo has shown no inclination to do this...

If all he wants is to be paid the Max, he has to expect the criticism that he is getting from some Celtic fans...

So, again I will say this:

Sign on the dotted line Rajon.....

What's the point in signing a contract now when we won't even know what a "team friendly" contract actually is until we know next year's salary cap? If Rondo - or anyone - signs long term this year, they could be royally screwing themselves if the cap goes up as much as the early predictions suggest. Until a.) we've seen him actually play for a while fully healthy, and b.) we know something about what the market will actually look like, nobody - not even Rondo - can guess what his market value will be.


Right now, we know exactly one thing: that he wants to hit Unrestricted Free Agency to see what it's like. We know that because he's said that. Everything else - everything - is just speculation.

He could be planning to play this where someone offers him more money and he returns to us anyway as the beloved loyal hero. He could be planning to bolt at the first opportunity. He could genuinely think he's worth the max, or he could just be playing hardball, fully expecting to settle back to something more reasonable (or the rumors that he's looking for that could be totally bunk in the first place). For all we know, even he is waiting to see how he plays this year before making decisions about how much he's going to ask for. Some options are perhaps more likely than others, but, right now, they're all just guesses. And not particularly educated ones.

So let's not panic, or grab our pitchforks and light the torches, just yet.

[Tenbomber]

What's the point in signing a contract now when we won't even know what a "team friendly" contract actually is until we know next year's salary cap? If Rondo - or anyone - signs long term this year, they could be royally screwing themselves if the cap goes up as much as the early predictions suggest. Until a.) we've seen him actually play for a while fully healthy, and b.) we know something about what the market will actually look like, nobody - not even Rondo - can guess what his market value will be.

You sound like his agent.....

The only screwing he will take is if he listens to you....He will likely land somewhere else....but you will get paid more....

Sign on the dotted line Rondo....

Be a leader and show how much you mean it.....Screw your agent.....

The Celtics and their fans will take care of you....

[ballup]

What's the point in signing a contract now when we won't even know what a "team friendly" contract actually is until we know next year's salary cap? If Rondo - or anyone - signs long term this year, they could be royally screwing themselves if the cap goes up as much as the early predictions suggest. Until a.) we've seen him actually play for a while fully healthy, and b.) we know something about what the market will actually look like, nobody - not even Rondo - can guess what his market value will be.

You sound like his agent.....

The only screwing he will take is if he listens to you....He will likely land somewhere else....but you will get paid more....

Sign on the dotted line Rondo....

Be a leader and show how much you mean it.....Screw your agent.....

The Celtics and their fans will take care of you....

You sound like sound like someone who has never made an important decision in his life or an amateur cars salesman.

[Tenbomber]

What's the point in signing a contract now when we won't even know what a "team friendly" contract actually is until we know next year's salary cap? If Rondo - or anyone - signs long term this year, they could be royally screwing themselves if the cap goes up as much as the early predictions suggest. Until a.) we've seen him actually play for a while fully healthy, and b.) we know something about what the market will actually look like, nobody - not even Rondo - can guess what his market value will be.

You sound like his agent.....

The only screwing he will take is if he listens to you....He will likely land somewhere else....but you will get paid more....

Sign on the dotted line Rondo....

Be a leader and show how much you mean it.....Screw your agent.....

The Celtics and their fans will take care of you....

You sound like sound like someone who has never made an important decision in his life or an amateur cars salesman.

Yeah thats how I have been able to survive to age 65....raise up a family, put two kids through college, and still manage to hold onto my home despite you youngins not wanting to pay for or take care of the old folk anymore...we should pay more...

I must not have any sense at all?.... right?

All you young guys think about are yourselves......all this high tech garbage and how much money you can make.....(and for some of you poor souls, how many and 1s you can amass on a message board)....There are no values anymore....just the next big thing...to hell with anything else...and by all means don't try to disapline your child....you will be arrested for child abuse....

That sort of logic produces a generation of kids who have no repect....sound familiar to you?

I'm sick and tired of all that stick....man up and take care of your responsobilities and have some common sense...

Don't worry about these rich atheletes....their poor agents and their greedy owners...

Worry about the fan....

We all have had to sacrifice and take less....that should include those who make the big bucks!

[SMTBSI]

All you young guys think about are yourselves......all this high tech garbage and how much money you can make.....(and for some of you poor souls, how many and 1s you can amass on a message board)....There are no values anymore....just the next big thing...to hell with anything else...and by all means don't try to disapline your child....you will be arrested for child abuse....

That sort of logic produces a generation of kids who have no repect....sound familiar to you?

I'm sick and tired of all that stick....man up and take care of your responsobilities and have some common sense...

Well, that got personal.

I'm sorry if it felt like I was targeting you with my post, Tenbomber. I started it out by quoting you, but as I continued on writing it, it became more of a general response to the never-ending Rondo-mania coming at us from all sides these last few months.

And, while I am still a youngish person, I think that, if you knew me, you might be surprised at how few of your generalizations applied.

[ballup]

You sound like his agent.....

The only screwing he will take is if he listens to you....He will likely land somewhere else....but you will get paid more....

Sign on the dotted line Rondo....

Be a leader and show how much you mean it.....Screw your agent.....

The Celtics and their fans will take care of you....

You sound like sound like someone who has never made an important decision in his life or an amateur cars salesman.

Yeah thats how I have been able to survive to age 65....raise up a family, put two kids through college, and still manage to hold onto my home despite you youngins not wanting to pay for the old folk anymore...

I must not have any sense at all?.... right?

All you young guys think about are yourselves......all this high tech garbage and how much money you can make......there are no values anymore....just the next big thing...to hell with anything else...and by all means don't try to disapline your child....you will be arrested for child abuse....

That sort of logic produces a generation of kids who have no repect....sound familiar to you?

I'm sick and tired of all that stick....man up and take care of your responsobilities and have some common sense...

Don't worry about these rich atheletes....their poor agents and their greedy owners...

Worry about the fan....

We all have had to sacrifice and take less....that should include those who make the big bucks!

Oh no! Your credentials are so scurry!

Look, if Rondo values a bigger paycheck or a more favorable destination to play out his career, then that's how it is. It's his decision and neither of us can change that. Will I be disappointed if he signs somewhere else? Sure, but that's just my perspective on the situation, not Rondo's.

For Rondo, this isn't just about him, his team, or the fans. His family plays an important role. He's going to decide where he lives for the next 3-5 years and where he chooses will affect his future after that span. Something like that isn't easy to decide.

I'm not worring about athletes. I'm respecting a person's professional and life decisions. You claim to hate the selfishness of youngsters yet you yourself are putting your own wants over his. You tell him to man up and not listen to his agent, yet he should listen to advice from a stranger?

[truth18]

OT...but...maybe...chill...with...the...eplipsi?

[Captain_Caveman]

Well, anyways... periodic reminder: Rondo's not taking an extension this offseason because we are limited by the CBA to offering 3 years and roughly $45m. If he plays out his contract, he could potentially get 4 years, $80-85m or even 5 years $105-110m.

He might not get that much, but barring death or a completely debilitating injury, the current extension maximum is well below his floor in next year's free agent market.

[truth18]

Well, anyways... periodic reminder: Rondo's not taking an extension this offseason because we are limited by the CBA to offering 3 years and roughly $45m. If he plays out his contract, he could potentially get 4 years, $80-85m or even 5 years $105-110m.

He might not get that much, but barring death or a completely debilitating injury, the current extension maximum is well below his floor in next year's free agent market.

This is well known, isn't it?

[165bows]

Well, anyways... periodic reminder: Rondo's not taking an extension this offseason because we are limited by the CBA to offering 3 years and roughly $45m. If he plays out his contract, he could potentially get 4 years, $80-85m or even 5 years $105-110m.

He might not get that much, but barring death or a completely debilitating injury, the current extension maximum is well below his floor in next year's free agent market.

Cave is this actually correct? And if so, where do you get these numbers? As far as I can tell, they aren't actually that high.

His max salary as far as I can tell next season is ~17.7M. If that's the case neither of his max numbers get that high. He'd get a 5% raise/year from non bird rights teams (or 885K) or a 7.5% raise from a bird rights team (or ~1.3M).

So the maxes would be 4/$76.2M w/o bird rights and 5/$101.5M from a team with bird rights.

[SMTBSI]

Cave is this actually correct? And if so, where do you get these numbers? As far as I can tell, they aren't actually that high.

His max salary as far as I can tell next season is ~17.7M. If that's the case neither of his max numbers get that high. He'd get a 5% raise/year from non bird rights teams (or 885K) or a 7.5% raise from a bird rights team (or ~1.3M).

So the maxes would be 4/$76.2M w/o bird rights and 5/$101.5M from a team with bird rights.

If the estimate of a $16mil cap jump are accurate, he could actually make far more than Caveman suggests. The 5% and 7.5% raises only hard-cap the first year of the contract if you're already over your percentage-of-salary-cap max. Otherwise, you can jump up to that percentage-max arbitrarily. Rondo will be a 9-year vet for 2015-2016, meaning his max is 30% of the salary cap.

(63.065 + 16) x .3 = 23.7195mil in the 1st year.

Now do 7.5% raises on that starting figure for the next four years, and you wind up with 5/136.378125 as his hypothetical max contract.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q16



EDIT: Made a mistake. As footnote #2 in that link states:

They use a different cap calculation to determine the maximum salaries, which is based on 42.14% of projected BRI rather than 44.74%. In 2005 the sides negotiated a different formula for setting the salary cap but not maximum salaries, so the two became decoupled, and this continued in the 2011 agreement. For this reason the maximum salaries are not actually 25%, 30% or 35% of the cap, and instead are a slightly lower amount.

So his actual hypothetical max would be a few mil lower than I calculated. But still well above Caveman's $110mil worst case scenario. Something more like 5/128.

[165bows]

Cave is this actually correct? And if so, where do you get these numbers? As far as I can tell, they aren't actually that high.

His max salary as far as I can tell next season is ~17.7M. If that's the case neither of his max numbers get that high. He'd get a 5% raise/year from non bird rights teams (or 885K) or a 7.5% raise from a bird rights team (or ~1.3M).

So the maxes would be 4/$76.2M w/o bird rights and 5/$101.5M from a team with bird rights.

If the estimate of a $16mil cap jump are accurate, he could actually make far more than Caveman suggests. The 5% and 7.5% raises only hard-cap the first year of the contract if you're already over your percentage-of-salary-cap max. Otherwise, you can jump up to that percentage-max arbitrarily. Rondo will be a 9-year vet for 2015-2016, meaning his max is 30% of the salary cap.

63.065 + 16 = 79.065 x .3 = 23.7195mil in the 1st year.

Now do 7.5% raises on that starting figure for the next four years, and you wind up with 5/136.378125 as his hypothetical max contract.


http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q16

No, I don't think that is correct. Not everyone is eligible for those 'percentage of cap' maxes, and as far as I see it Rondo doesn't meet the higher max levels:

17. Are there exceptions to the maximum salary?

Yes. In multi-year contracts only the first season's salary is subject to the maximum, but there are restrictions about how big raises can be from year to year (see question number 55).

In addition, a player in his fifth season can qualify for more than the 0-6 year (25%) maximum, and up to the 7-9 year (30%) maximum if he has met the "5th Year 30% Max criteria" (see question number 60). However, a player's eligibility for the higher maximum salary doesn't imply he will actually receive this amount -- as with all salaries, it's a matter of negotiation between the player and his team.

Here are the criteria and I don't think Rondo meets any of these, hence his max is the 7-9 year vet max not the 'cap percentage' max:

Named to the All-NBA First, Second or Third team at least twice
Voted as a starter in the All-Star game at least twice
Named the NBA Most Valuable Player at least once

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q60

I could be wrong but I don't think so. This same thing is why Melo was eligible for a higher max salary this summer than Bosh, even though they had the same service years. Melo hadn't taken Bosh's paycut and had simply accrued more raises over time, allowing his max to go higher.

[SMTBSI]

No, I don't think that is correct. Not everyone is eligible for those 'percentage of cap' maxes, and as far as I see it Rondo doesn't meet the higher max levels:

17. Are there exceptions to the maximum salary?

Yes. In multi-year contracts only the first season's salary is subject to the maximum, but there are restrictions about how big raises can be from year to year (see question number 55).

In addition, a player in his fifth season can qualify for more than the 0-6 year (25%) maximum, and up to the 7-9 year (30%) maximum if he has met the "5th Year 30% Max criteria" (see question number 60). However, a player's eligibility for the higher maximum salary doesn't imply he will actually receive this amount -- as with all salaries, it's a matter of negotiation between the player and his team.

Here are the criteria and I don't think Rondo meets any of these, hence his max is the 7-9 year vet max not the 'cap percentage' max:

Named to the All-NBA First, Second or Third team at least twice
Voted as a starter in the All-Star game at least twice
Named the NBA Most Valuable Player at least once

Unfortunately, what you quoted is only valid for fifth year players trying to get re-classified into the 7-9 year tier.

Rondo is in the 7-9 year tier by default, so does not have to meet those three criteria.

I am all but positive about this.

The salary in the first year of an extension to a rookie scale contract (other than for a team's Designated Player) may be any amount up to the player's maximum. This is usually the 0-6 year maximum, which is based on 25% of the salary cap (see question number 16). However, a player may receive up to the 7-9 year maximum, which is based on 30% of the cap, if he meets any of the following criteria (called the "5th Year 30% Max criteria"):

Named to the All-NBA First, Second or Third team at least twice
Voted as a starter in the All-Star game at least twice
Named the NBA Most Valuable Player at least once

Those criteria only apply to players who just finished their rookie contract.

[165bows]

No, I don't think that is correct. Not everyone is eligible for those 'percentage of cap' maxes, and as far as I see it Rondo doesn't meet the higher max levels:

17. Are there exceptions to the maximum salary?

Yes. In multi-year contracts only the first season's salary is subject to the maximum, but there are restrictions about how big raises can be from year to year (see question number 55).

In addition, a player in his fifth season can qualify for more than the 0-6 year (25%) maximum, and up to the 7-9 year (30%) maximum if he has met the "5th Year 30% Max criteria" (see question number 60). However, a player's eligibility for the higher maximum salary doesn't imply he will actually receive this amount -- as with all salaries, it's a matter of negotiation between the player and his team.

Here are the criteria and I don't think Rondo meets any of these, hence his max is the 7-9 year vet max not the 'cap percentage' max:

Named to the All-NBA First, Second or Third team at least twice
Voted as a starter in the All-Star game at least twice
Named the NBA Most Valuable Player at least once

Unfortunately, what you quoted is only valid for fifth year players trying to get re-classified into the 7-9 year max tier.

Rondo is in the 7-9 year max tier by default, so does not have to meet those three criteria.

I am all but positive about this.

The salary in the first year of an extension to a rookie scale contract (other than for a team's Designated Player) may be any amount up to the player's maximum. This is usually the 0-6 year maximum, which is based on 25% of the salary cap (see question number 16). However, a player may receive up to the 7-9 year maximum, which is based on 30% of the cap, if he meets any of the following criteria (called the "5th Year 30% Max criteria"):

Named to the All-NBA First, Second or Third team at least twice
Voted as a starter in the All-Star game at least twice
Named the NBA Most Valuable Player at least once

Those criteria only apply to players who just finished their rookie contract.

Yeah, I know what you are saying, but if you look at the chart in this part of the FAQ the numbers following the percentages don't match each other, ie, it's not just spelling out the details. They are different values.

There are two parts to that chart and the yearly salary max dollar value isn't the same as the percentage of cap.

You will notice guys that have 'max' deals such as G. Hayward or J. Harden do not meet the 25% of the cap level for the year they signed, or thereafter because they aren't eligible. In other words, Hayward eg has a $14.7 salary this year on his 'max' deal for a guy under 5 years of service, but that is not 25% of 66M (which would be $16.5M).

Again I could be wrong because that section is just not clear IMO, but the salaries reported pretty much invariably match what I am saying, eg with guys like Bledsoe's max contract demand totals.

[SMTBSI]

Yeah, I know what you are saying, but if you look at the chart in this part of the FAQ the numbers following the percentages don't match each other, ie, it's not just spelling out the details. They are different values.

There are two parts to that chart and the yearly salary max dollar value isn't the same as the percentage of cap.

You will notice guys that have 'max' deals such as G. Hayward or J. Harden do not meet the 25% of the cap level for the year they signed, or thereafter because they aren't eligible. In other words, Hayward eg has a $14.7 salary this year on his 'max' deal for a guy under 5 years of service, but that is not 25% of 66M (which would be $16.5M).

Again I could be wrong because that section is just not clear IMO, but the salaries reported pretty much invariably match what I am saying, eg with guys like Bledsoe's max contract demand totals.

Bows, the discrepancy you are seeing is due to footnote #2 in question #16 of the faq:

They use a different cap calculation to determine the maximum salaries, which is based on 42.14% of projected BRI rather than 44.74%. In 2005 the sides negotiated a different formula for setting the salary cap but not maximum salaries, so the two became decoupled, and this continued in the 2011 agreement. For this reason the maximum salaries are not actually 25%, 30% or 35% of the cap, and instead are a slightly lower amount.

(Also, next year's cap is actually 63.065mil [1], not the estimated 66mil previously reported.)

So, to calculate a player's actual max, take the salary cap and divide by 0.4474, then multiply by 0.4214, then multiply again by the player's percentage max.

IE: (63.065 + 16) / 0.4474 implies a projected 176.721055mil in BRI (Basketball Related Income) for 2015-2016.

176.721055 * .4214 = 74.470252 as the "cap calculation to determine the maximum salaries".

74.470252 * 0.3 = 22.341075 as Rondo's approximate 1st year max.




This bears out for Parsons:

(63.065 / 0.4474 * 0.4214) *0.25 = 14.85, when he got 14.7. So close enough.

[165bows]

This bears out for Parsons:

(63.065 / 0.4474 * 0.4214) *0.25 = 14.85, when he got 14.7. So close enough.

This is pretty much is what I am saying in the end results but just using different details to get there. 14.7M is the max for someone of Parosn's number of year's experience, he spells it out in the chart. That's exactly where I am getting the 17.7M number for Rondo.

Rondo is not getting a percentage of cap type deal, once he signs he is locked into the values he is eligible for now. If the cap goes way up he doesn't get a raise based on it that's not how it is going to happen.

That's precisely why LeBron is on a two year deal since only a very few deals are eligible to be written to be 'you get x% of the cap.' If LeBron loses both legs in an accident, that's it for him he is out of luck which is a real risk. But he's taking it to get the new max salaries that will be available since guys signing now aren't getting them.

Edit - actually that makes sense where CC's numbers come from, since that 17.7 would be this summer's number, not next, which is the relevant one for Rondo. But the larger future increases won't affect it.

[SMTBSI]

This is pretty much is what I am saying in the end results but just using different details to get there. 14.7M is the max for someone of Parosn's number of year's experience, he spells it out in the chart. That's exactly where I am getting the 17.7M number for Rondo.

Rondo is not getting a percentage of cap type deal, once he signs he is locked into the values he is eligible for now. If the cap goes way up he doesn't get a raise based on it that's not how it is going to happen.

You're correct that if he re-signed now, he wouldn't see any of the benefit of the increasing cap. His years 2-5 would be constrained by the 7.5% raises on the year-one value of his contract.

But Rondo's contract runs through the end of the 2014-2015 season. Since he's not re-upping until after it expires, the ceiling of his next contract will be determined by the 2015-2016 salary cap - nothing else.


And I hate being this terribly blunt, but what I wrote about Parsons is not the same thing as what you were saying. He got his 25% max, calculated in the same way as anyone else's 25% or 30% or 35% max would be calculated: using 42.14% of projected BRI. It has nothing to do with "eligibility".

Rondo's year 9 max, assuming he hits UFA, will be 30% of 42.14% of 2015-2016's projected BRI. Or, assuming the early projections of a $16mil cap increase are correct, approx. 22.35mil in year one.

[165bows]

This is pretty much is what I am saying in the end results but just using different details to get there. 14.7M is the max for someone of Parosn's number of year's experience, he spells it out in the chart. That's exactly where I am getting the 17.7M number for Rondo.

Rondo is not getting a percentage of cap type deal, once he signs he is locked into the values he is eligible for now. If the cap goes way up he doesn't get a raise based on it that's not how it is going to happen.

You're correct that if he re-signed now, he wouldn't see any of the benefit of the increasing cap. His years 2-5 would be constrained by the 7.5% raises on the year-one value of his contract.

But Rondo's contract runs through the end of the 2014-2015 season. Since he's not re-upping until after it expires, the ceiling of his next contract will be determined by the 2015-2016 salary cap - nothing else.


And I hate being this terribly blunt, but what I wrote about Parsons is not the same thing as what you were saying. He got his 25% max, calculated in the same way as anyone else's 25% or 30% or 35% max would be calculated: using 42.14% of projected BRI. It has nothing to do with "eligibility".

Rondo's year 9 max, assuming he hits UFA, will be 30% of 42.14% of 2015-2016's projected BRI. Or, assuming the early projections of a $16mil cap increase are correct, approx. 22.35mil in year one.

Yes, I agree what I originally quoted was not a good explanation. But what I am saying is that increase is not happening after this year. The TV deal doesn't even start until after this year is over so the big increase they are projecting will not have taken into affect at that point. They will just be looking at some type of similar increase as this past year, hence the two years deals I referenced.

Edit - meaning I would agree with what you are saying here except it is 42% of 2014-2015's BRI, since it is the previous year's value.

[SMTBSI]

Yes, I agree what I originally quoted was not a good explanation. But what I am saying is that increase is not happening after this year. The TV deal doesn't even start until after this year is over so the big increase they are projecting will not have taken into affect at that point. They will just be looking at some type of similar increase as this past year, hence the two years deals I referenced.

Ok, if you believe that the projections being thrown around about a $16 mil salary cap increase for 2015-2016 are not correct, then yes, you're completely right. If the 2015-2016 cap is similar to the 2014-2015 cap, then Rondo's year-one max will be similar to the 17.6952 year-one max for 2014-2015. And then years 2-5 will be constrained by the 7.5% raises.

That's why the very first line of my very first post in this discussion read:

If the estimate of a $16mil cap jump are accurate

Every calculation I performed from there on clearly utilized the $16mil estimate.

Your responses have never mentioned, up to this point, that you were dissenting with the $16mil estimate - you just implied that my calculations or cba knowledge were off in some way. I had no way of knowing that your point of contention was the $16mil increase estimate.


EDIT: Ok, never mind. I see what you're saying. See my next post for clarification.