Hayward Undecided

[Fencer reregistered]

I am not even against signing Hayward. I just need to see the plan on that one. It can't be sign Hayward move Crowder to the bench, not play Brown, but plan on Yabu, Zizic, and Horford as the only bigs.

It would seem to me the plan should be to try and bring Hayward and Favors to Boston in exchange for KO, Crowder and some draft assets or young players. Even if it is a situation where we sign Hayward outright and trade for Favors at least that makes sense. SF's and SG's are weird assets in the NBA everyone is willing to pay them silly money but it is tough to get a decent return on them in a trade.

That reads as if you're saying "Don't sign Hayward unless Utah also agrees to trade us Favors." Of course, that can't really be what you mean.

Anyhow, the simplest mechanism for signing Hayward is:

-- Renounce all our FAs (mainly bigs).
-- Trade a guard. (Bradley or Smart).
-- Sign Hayward to cap room.
-- Sign the rookies, including stashes.

In that model:

-- You're right that we only start with Horford and the rookies as bigs ...
-- ... plus Crowder, who would surely be the putative starter.
-- But we also have a full MLE to work with.
-- Whatever happens in the guard trade, we have the ability to bring back a big with some salary, into a trade exception if nothing else. And of course we have lots of picks to trade.

How and when are you going to trade a guard? At the draft? Trading Bradley or Smart is a pretty big trade. Are you just salary dumping them? Do you do this with Hayward agreeing to sign first or in hopes that he does sign?

You don't make the salary-cap-clearing trades until you have a guy agreeing to sign who requires them (presumably Hayward or Griffin).

Once you do, you have multiple paths to clearing space -- basically, trading any of Crowder, Bradley or Smart. Further, you know exactly who you're signing, which might affect your willingness to trade (for example) Crowder. It might also affect your interest in getting a low-cost big in return.

So while you talk about tentative deals before a signing, you don't pull the trigger until you believe the signing is certain.

(In fact -- is the NBA one of the leagues where you have a 24 hour grace period to clear the cap space you need?)

[greenmachine_2849]

This thread should be reserved for Sully throttling the group think on giving $30M to Hayward when we've got Brown and Fultz.

Yeah, I don't get the logic of adding Hayward to a team that is already two deep with all-stars, future all-stars, and all NBA defenders at the 1 - 3. Of course, Ainge can subsequently flip a couple of those backcourt assets for a quality big man, but recent history makes me wonder if Ainge can actually pull the trigger on such a trade. While I certainly wouldn't mind if Hayward comes to Boston, I think we might have a ridiculously unbalanced roster heading into opening night if he does.

I may be in the minority here, but I would rather Ainge targeted Paul Millsap as his primary free agent. I think he is a realistic option. Sign him to the max for three years. By the time his and Horford's contracts expire, hopefully Zizic and whoever we draft in 2018 are ready to provide quality starter minutes at the four and five. And in the interim three years, there should be plenty of minutes for those two, as well as Brown and Fultz, to develop in a winning environment.

[darrendaye]

I know we're dismissing the possibility of a deal with Minny for 7, but, would love a deal sending Bradley and Crowder (add a non-Brkn pick if it makes it more "realistic") for 7, take Isaac. I BELIEVE this gives you the cap room to sign Hayward and not renounce KO. Sign Hayward and sign and trade KO for Favors.

PG: IT/Fultz/Rozier
SG: Smart/Brown
SF: Hayward/Brown/Nader
PF: Horford/Vet/Isaac/Yabusele
C: Favors/Zizic/Pick #37

[Disinformation]

I know we're dismissing the possibility of a deal with Minny for 7, but, would love a deal sending Bradley and Crowder (add a non-Brkn pick if it makes it more "realistic") for 7, take Isaac. I BELIEVE this gives you the cap room to sign Hayward and not renounce KO. Sign Hayward and sign and trade KO for Favors.

PG: IT/Fultz/Rozier
SG: Smart/Brown
SF: Hayward/Brown/Nader
PF: Horford/Vet/Isaac/Yabusele
C: Favors/Zizic/Pick #37

Isaac is kind of my binkie if we end up with a second pick in the lottery. I know he's a risk but I love his potential and size (or as Hubie Brown would say, his upside and length).

[liveod]

IT
Fultz
Hayward
Horford
Zizic

JB
Crowder/AB
Yabs

Can they beat LeBron in 2 years?

[31to6]

This thread should be reserved for Sully throttling the group think on giving $30M to Hayward when we've got Brown and Fultz.

Yeah, I don't get the logic of adding Hayward to a team that is already two deep with all-stars, future all-stars, and all NBA defenders at the 1 - 3. Of course, Ainge can subsequently flip a couple of those backcourt assets for a quality big man, but recent history makes me wonder if Ainge can actually pull the trigger on such a trade. While I certainly wouldn't mind if Hayward comes to Boston, I think we might have a ridiculously unbalanced roster heading into opening night if he does.

I may be in the minority here, but I would rather Ainge targeted Paul Millsap as his primary free agent. I think he is a realistic option. Sign him to the max for three years. By the time his and Horford's contracts expire, hopefully Zizic and whoever we draft in 2018 are ready to provide quality starter minutes at the four and five. And in the interim three years, there should be plenty of minutes for those two, as well as Brown and Fultz, to develop in a winning environment.

Preach, brother!

Just look at the act of renouncing KO.
If we sign Hayward, we have to grimace about doing it.
If we sign Blake Griffin, we smile all the way to the bank doing it.

[sully00]

I know we're dismissing the possibility of a deal with Minny for 7, but, would love a deal sending Bradley and Crowder (add a non-Brkn pick if it makes it more "realistic") for 7, take Isaac. I BELIEVE this gives you the cap room to sign Hayward and not renounce KO. Sign Hayward and sign and trade KO for Favors.

PG: IT/Fultz/Rozier
SG: Smart/Brown
SF: Hayward/Brown/Nader
PF: Horford/Vet/Isaac/Yabusele
C: Favors/Zizic/Pick #37

Your just taking such a massive step back as a team without anything in hand. I don't understand the concept of dealing Bradley and Crowder it seems crazy to me.

[ConstableGeneva]

Quin Snyder doesn't sound very optimistic about Hayward coming back. Or at the very least, Snyder is aware of Gordon's desire to look real closely at his FA options to further his career/chances of winning.

I do hope if we end up signing Hayward (my preference is a healthy Griffin), Danny and co. still somehow addresses the need for a frontcourt upgrade/viable replacement for KO/Amir/JJ trio. I'm in the camp who believes that neither Yabu and Zizic will impact defense/winning in their rookie year.

[Writebloc]

Quin Snyder doesn't sound very optimistic about Hayward coming back. Or at the very least, Snyder is aware of Gordon's desire to look real closely at his FA options to further his career/chances of winning.

I do hope if we end up signing Hayward (my preference is a healthy Griffin), Danny and co. still somehow addresses the need for a frontcourt upgrade/viable replacement for KO/Amir/JJ trio. I'm in the camp who believes that neither Yabu and Zizic will impact defense/winning in their rookie year.

I listened to Woj's podcast with Snyder this morning and I noticed the same tone in Quin's responses, the answers to the questions were measured and more speaking about the long term than the short term. He certainly didn't come off as a person who was convinced with Gordon's decision and your assessment of Quin not being optimistic is spot on. In the segment where Woj is talking to Quin as Hayward's growth as a player Snyder actually says whether Hayward "plays on another team" or stays in Utah he believes he'll improve his game. I thought it was telling that Snyder lead with plays on another team, as opposed to staying with the Jazz, it just sounded as if Snyder was resigned to the fact that Gordon had one foot out the door.

[Writebloc]

To break it down further Woj asks Quin if the franchise has done everything it could to retain Hayward?

Quin: "There has to be a realism about where you are, where the program is, but there can't be an insecurity..."
"As much as trying to sell him (Hayward) on something, I think for us, we want to feel good about who we are, and over the course of that period of time really live it, as much as trying to project it in someway and your hope is the fit is there?"
"If Gordon doesn't come back I don't think it is something that the Jazz are not doing as much as there's a situation that he wants, obviously that would be disappointing..."

[Captain_Caveman]

This thread should be reserved for Sully throttling the group think on giving $30M to Hayward when we've got Brown and Fultz.

Yeah, I don't get the logic of adding Hayward to a team that is already two deep with all-stars, future all-stars, and all NBA defenders at the 1 - 3. Of course, Ainge can subsequently flip a couple of those backcourt assets for a quality big man, but recent history makes me wonder if Ainge can actually pull the trigger on such a trade. While I certainly wouldn't mind if Hayward comes to Boston, I think we might have a ridiculously unbalanced roster heading into opening night if he does.

I may be in the minority here, but I would rather Ainge targeted Paul Millsap as his primary free agent. I think he is a realistic option. Sign him to the max for three years. By the time his and Horford's contracts expire, hopefully Zizic and whoever we draft in 2018 are ready to provide quality starter minutes at the four and five. And in the interim three years, there should be plenty of minutes for those two, as well as Brown and Fultz, to develop in a winning environment.

Because we can't **** score.

Paul Millsap is 32 years old, BTW.

[Captain_Caveman]

Why not at least put such smoking takes in the appropriate thread? Or is the Fultz thread the one where you're urging us to max Otto Porter?

This thread should be reserved for Sully throttling the group think on giving $30M to Hayward when we've got Brown and Fultz.

I am not even against signing Hayward. I just need to see the plan on that one. It can't be sign Hayward move Crowder to the bench, not play Brown, but plan on Yabu, Zizic, and Horford as the only bigs.

It would seem to me the plan should be to try and bring Hayward and Favors to Boston in exchange for KO, Crowder and some draft assets or young players. Even if it is a situation where we sign Hayward outright and trade for Favors at least that makes sense. SF's and SG's are weird assets in the NBA everyone is willing to pay them silly money but it is tough to get a decent return on them in a trade.

That reads as if you're saying "Don't sign Hayward unless Utah also agrees to trade us Favors." Of course, that can't really be what you mean.

Anyhow, the simplest mechanism for signing Hayward is:

-- Renounce all our FAs (mainly bigs).
-- Trade a guard. (Bradley or Smart).
-- Sign Hayward to cap room.
-- Sign the rookies, including stashes.

In that model:

-- You're right that we only start with Horford and the rookies as bigs ...
-- ... plus Crowder, who would surely be the putative starter.
-- But we also have a full MLE to work with.
-- Whatever happens in the guard trade, we have the ability to bring back a big with some salary, into a trade exception if nothing else. And of course we have lots of picks to trade.

This is why you do Hayward as a sign-and-trade. We would already have to give up Olynyk, our other FAs, our exceptions and another player to clear the room. If you are going to do that anyway, why not just send some of that to Utah instead, as it allows you to retain the assets/contracts to then pursue another player without having to gut the team?

Like... Blake Griffin.

[Homerclease]

This thread should be reserved for Sully throttling the group think on giving $30M to Hayward when we've got Brown and Fultz.

Yeah, I don't get the logic of adding Hayward to a team that is already two deep with all-stars, future all-stars, and all NBA defenders at the 1 - 3. Of course, Ainge can subsequently flip a couple of those backcourt assets for a quality big man, but recent history makes me wonder if Ainge can actually pull the trigger on such a trade. While I certainly wouldn't mind if Hayward comes to Boston, I think we might have a ridiculously unbalanced roster heading into opening night if he does.

I may be in the minority here, but I would rather Ainge targeted Paul Millsap as his primary free agent. I think he is a realistic option. Sign him to the max for three years. By the time his and Horford's contracts expire, hopefully Zizic and whoever we draft in 2018 are ready to provide quality starter minutes at the four and five. And in the interim three years, there should be plenty of minutes for those two, as well as Brown and Fultz, to develop in a winning environment.

Because we can't **** score.

Paul Millsap is 32 years old, BTW.

This x 1000.

For people worried about IT breaking down early, the best way to prolong his career is to get someone in here that can take the scoring and ball handling load off him. Enter Gordon Hayward who's entering his prime and can drop 25 a night on you at the drop of a hat. This is a no brainer

[Fencer reregistered]

I am not even against signing Hayward. I just need to see the plan on that one. It can't be sign Hayward move Crowder to the bench, not play Brown, but plan on Yabu, Zizic, and Horford as the only bigs.

It would seem to me the plan should be to try and bring Hayward and Favors to Boston in exchange for KO, Crowder and some draft assets or young players. Even if it is a situation where we sign Hayward outright and trade for Favors at least that makes sense. SF's and SG's are weird assets in the NBA everyone is willing to pay them silly money but it is tough to get a decent return on them in a trade.

That reads as if you're saying "Don't sign Hayward unless Utah also agrees to trade us Favors." Of course, that can't really be what you mean.

Anyhow, the simplest mechanism for signing Hayward is:

-- Renounce all our FAs (mainly bigs).
-- Trade a guard. (Bradley or Smart).
-- Sign Hayward to cap room.
-- Sign the rookies, including stashes.

In that model:

-- You're right that we only start with Horford and the rookies as bigs ...
-- ... plus Crowder, who would surely be the putative starter.
-- But we also have a full MLE to work with.
-- Whatever happens in the guard trade, we have the ability to bring back a big with some salary, into a trade exception if nothing else. And of course we have lots of picks to trade.

This is why you do Hayward as a sign-and-trade. We would already have to give up Olynyk, our other FAs, our exceptions and another player to clear the room. If you are going to do that anyway, why not just send some of that to Utah instead, as it allows you to retain the assets/contracts to then pursue another player without having to gut the team?

Like... Blake Griffin.

No way we can get Utah to agree to a S&T unless they believe that if they don't agree, we'll just sign him anyway.

[Captain_Caveman]

That reads as if you're saying "Don't sign Hayward unless Utah also agrees to trade us Favors." Of course, that can't really be what you mean.

Anyhow, the simplest mechanism for signing Hayward is:

-- Renounce all our FAs (mainly bigs).
-- Trade a guard. (Bradley or Smart).
-- Sign Hayward to cap room.
-- Sign the rookies, including stashes.

In that model:

-- You're right that we only start with Horford and the rookies as bigs ...
-- ... plus Crowder, who would surely be the putative starter.
-- But we also have a full MLE to work with.
-- Whatever happens in the guard trade, we have the ability to bring back a big with some salary, into a trade exception if nothing else. And of course we have lots of picks to trade.

This is why you do Hayward as a sign-and-trade. We would already have to give up Olynyk, our other FAs, our exceptions and another player to clear the room. If you are going to do that anyway, why not just send some of that to Utah instead, as it allows you to retain the assets/contracts to then pursue another player without having to gut the team?

Like... Blake Griffin.

No way we can get Utah to agree to a S&T unless they believe that if they don't agree, we'll just sign him anyway.

Which we can easily do. They 100% know we can easily clear the space in like ten different ways.

What it requires is simply Hayward telling them that he is leaving.

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

I am not even against signing Hayward. I just need to see the plan on that one. It can't be sign Hayward move Crowder to the bench, not play Brown, but plan on Yabu, Zizic, and Horford as the only bigs.

It would seem to me the plan should be to try and bring Hayward and Favors to Boston in exchange for KO, Crowder and some draft assets or young players. Even if it is a situation where we sign Hayward outright and trade for Favors at least that makes sense. SF's and SG's are weird assets in the NBA everyone is willing to pay them silly money but it is tough to get a decent return on them in a trade.

That reads as if you're saying "Don't sign Hayward unless Utah also agrees to trade us Favors." Of course, that can't really be what you mean.

Anyhow, the simplest mechanism for signing Hayward is:

-- Renounce all our FAs (mainly bigs).
-- Trade a guard. (Bradley or Smart).
-- Sign Hayward to cap room.
-- Sign the rookies, including stashes.

In that model:

-- You're right that we only start with Horford and the rookies as bigs ...
-- ... plus Crowder, who would surely be the putative starter.
-- But we also have a full MLE to work with.
-- Whatever happens in the guard trade, we have the ability to bring back a big with some salary, into a trade exception if nothing else. And of course we have lots of picks to trade.

This is why you do Hayward as a sign-and-trade. We would already have to give up Olynyk, our other FAs, our exceptions and another player to clear the room. If you are going to do that anyway, why not just send some of that to Utah instead, as it allows you to retain the assets/contracts to then pursue another player without having to gut the team?

Like... Blake Griffin.

It's awfully presumptuous to think that Utah even covets KO who is a very acquired taste even for us. If Utahs gonna lose GH and they have cap money now to spend that was reserved for GH, I would think they'd like to spend it on someone else other than KO. Maybe KO is only valued at 10ml to them and he knows he can get 15 from another dumb FO. Utah won't match another dumb team just cause it works for our ability to sign another max guy.

[smith2373]

This is why you do Hayward as a sign-and-trade. We would already have to give up Olynyk, our other FAs, our exceptions and another player to clear the room. If you are going to do that anyway, why not just send some of that to Utah instead, as it allows you to retain the assets/contracts to then pursue another player without having to gut the team?

Like... Blake Griffin.

No way we can get Utah to agree to a S&T unless they believe that if they don't agree, we'll just sign him anyway.

Which we can easily do. They 100% know we can easily clear the space in like ten different ways.

What it requires is simply Hayward telling them that he is leaving.

But this assumes the Jazz will even want Olynyk

[Fencer reregistered]

It's awfully presumptuous to think that Utah even covets KO who is a very acquired taste even for us.

Not a requirement. He just has to go SOMEWHERE to a team that has SOME reason to make the deal a S&T rather than a straight signing.

[Captain_Caveman]

That reads as if you're saying "Don't sign Hayward unless Utah also agrees to trade us Favors." Of course, that can't really be what you mean.

Anyhow, the simplest mechanism for signing Hayward is:

-- Renounce all our FAs (mainly bigs).
-- Trade a guard. (Bradley or Smart).
-- Sign Hayward to cap room.
-- Sign the rookies, including stashes.

In that model:

-- You're right that we only start with Horford and the rookies as bigs ...
-- ... plus Crowder, who would surely be the putative starter.
-- But we also have a full MLE to work with.
-- Whatever happens in the guard trade, we have the ability to bring back a big with some salary, into a trade exception if nothing else. And of course we have lots of picks to trade.

This is why you do Hayward as a sign-and-trade. We would already have to give up Olynyk, our other FAs, our exceptions and another player to clear the room. If you are going to do that anyway, why not just send some of that to Utah instead, as it allows you to retain the assets/contracts to then pursue another player without having to gut the team?

Like... Blake Griffin.

It's awfully presumptuous to think that Utah even covets KO who is a very acquired taste even for us. If Utahs gonna lose GH and they have cap money now to spend that was reserved for GH, I would think they'd like to spend it on someone else other than KO. Maybe KO is only valued at 10ml to them and he knows he can get 15 from another dumb FO. Utah won't match another dumb team just cause it works for our ability to sign another max guy.

They don't have significant cap room even if Hayward leaves. Not dependent on Olynyk either, but worth noting that he could be used in a sign-and-trade if he would agree to terms with the other team. The point here is simply that Hayward should ultimately be a sign-and-trade, if it happens at all. There are a hundred scenarios after that which become possible, or at least easier. Keeping Olynyk is one. A trade for Griffin or any other player. Using a full MLE.

Let's say Hayward is ultimately traded for Amir/Jerebko/Rozier/Yabu, with Amir and Jerebko signed to deals where only the first year was guaranteed. This gives Utah a little sugar, and the expiring contracts necessary to pursue trades at the deadline. At that point, we still have the assets to do a similar trade for Griffin, involving Zeller/Crowder/Bradley (or Olynyk, if that can be swung).

Leaving us with:

IT/Fultz
Smart/Jaylen
Hayward
Griffin
Horford/Zizic

Plus an MLE. Plus all our future picks.

Without the sign-and-trade, Olynyk, Amir, Zeller, Jerebko and likely one of Bradley or Crowder still has to go out the door anyways just to fit Hayward in under the cap. Leaving us with no full MLE, and not enough assets/contracts to pull off a second big trade (unless, of course, you want to match incoming salary numbers with guys like IT and Fultz instead of Zeller and Jerebko).

[Captain_Caveman]

No way we can get Utah to agree to a S&T unless they believe that if they don't agree, we'll just sign him anyway.

Which we can easily do. They 100% know we can easily clear the space in like ten different ways.

What it requires is simply Hayward telling them that he is leaving.

But this assumes the Jazz will even want Olynyk

It does not. See my post above.